New prototype AR-15 buttstock design from R&R Targets

[MSTN]

Want just that certain length of pull? Do you need a different buttplate angle to accommodate your gear, your shooting position, or that rotator cuff surgery you just had? How about a little cast off to help the muzzle track shot to shot right on target? Robert Wright of R&R Targets and custom Saiga fame has built your next AR' stock, then:

Robert has built these for the Army AMU in the past, but with a carbine length tube. This prototype batch is set up for the patented Vltor recoil buffer and rifle length recoil spring:

A nice shade of purple, don't you think?!? I guess we could break out the Cerakote!

I have a similar stock on my Tubb 2000 that makes recoil management with the .308 a dream:

Look, even McMillan Rifle Company has a little purple going on there, too.

I don't use much cast off with the 5.56,but a little makes a difference:

I think this stock design makes a nice addition to an AR' precision rig:

The entire stock assembly with A5 length stock tube only weighs 18 ounces, within plus or minus an ounce of the other carbine stocks and tubes I have on hand. I think the go-fast 3-Gun crowd might like this, as well.

 

[Cobracutter]

Neat concept but cheek weld looks shitty ALA M4 RE fully extended.

Thats whats great about a 6 POS Stock/RE. Add in But spacers/pads and there is a flavor for everyone.

 

[garandman]

.308 has no recoil to manage.

 

[GH41]

Neat concept but cheek weld looks shitty ALA M4 RE fully extended.

Thats whats great about a 6 POS Stock/RE. Add in But spacers/pads and there is a flavor for everyone.

What cheek weld?? GH

 

[MSTN]

The cheek weld is the much the same as any other AR' would have, a function of the location what is sitting on top of the stock tube where your cheek contacts it. This one has a nice comfy padded contour that you must have overlooked.

How do you change your buttplate angle to accommodate your shooting position with a carbine stock - or a fixed stock? How do you alter your cast off with these conventional stocks? The short answer to both is you can't.

I guess you naysayers know a lot more about what the AMU needs than they do.

Edited to add: And David Tubb.

 

[Regalkismet]

Yes you can just add a SAPR to your collapsible stock.

 

[thagunshow]

Not crazy about the foam wrap on the buffer tube. Yea they have em on the ar pistols but your not laying cheek on it.

 

[Donr13]

Work on an adjustable cheek rest and this would be cool

 

[MSTN]

R&R has an adjustable cheek rest version for bolt guns, already.

But, with an AR', if the stock tube had an adjustable cheek rest, the cheek rest when not fully lowered would interfere with the cycling of the charging handle.

 

[HKpirate]

Looks like the stock off an XLR Chassis with out the adjustable cheek rest.

 

[coach4christ]

Looks like the stock off an XLR Chassis with out the adjustable cheek rest.

I agree.

 

[Spuhr]

I have no opinions about the stock but i wanna respond to The cheekrest discussion.

The only good way to obtain a good cheekrest on any AR is to use lower mounts.
To do that with a scope with a big Bell prohibits 12 o'clock rail on forend. Another issue is the very short actions on the ARs that makes low mounts difficult.



Here is a buschnell 3,5-21x50 mounted on a 1,1" mount on my prototype AR10.
This was a specialmount we made for GA Precision and its made to be used both as cantilever and straight, whatever you prefers.

But The lack Of continious picatinny on forend makes the low mount possible.
The rifle is different to other ARs as the reiciver is 1,25" longer than normal AR10s.

Anyhow cheekrest is great and the issue with cheekrest is not a problem for The stockmaker to solve but The scopemounrs and riflemakers.....

 

[MSTN]

All 100% correct.

Let's assume for a moment that Eugene Stoner might have known what he was doing when he developed the ergonomics associated with the M-16. I think we can all agree that when you throw a carry handle equipped M-16. M-4, AR-15, etc., up to your shoulder, the axis of the iron sights is lined up with your Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeball.

So, Mr. Stoner got the cheek weld issue right. How do we best determine what it is so we can duplicate it in a scope mount? The simplest way I know is to measure the height of the two sight apertures on a detachable carry handle mount above the receiver on a flat top upper. We're looking at a height of 1.4" - 1.5". This is the correct height for an optic on an AR-15 pattern rifle. Check out the axis of all your top shelf AR-15 scope mounts and you'll see they fall in this range.

But, the AR-15 flat top upper is so short that conventional scope rings do not provide us with the eye relief most riflescopes require, typically in the 3.5" - 3.9" range. That's why AR-15 scope mounts like the Spuhr, above, plus Larue, ADM, Unity Tactical, etc., come equipped with a forward offset to accommodate this eye relief requirement.

Example:

As mentioned in the previous post, the upper receiver of the "Big Block" gas guns designed to handle the .308 cartridge is longer in length, negating the forward offset requirement for proper eye relief:

Note that the Big Block guns have more drop to the comb. This means the axis of the optic must be lower for a proper check weld. Mr. Stoner designed the scope rings for his original SR-25 with a 1.273" height. But, as pointed out above, the bigger scope objectives used today (with lens cover) won't clear the typical receiver height railed forend. The GAP forend is a clever solution to this problem.

With the Larue rifle shown above, my solution was to go with a stock having an adjustable cheek rest. See how far back on the stock the cheekpiece is? With my big melon head resting there, I had to move the scope rearward to achieve my correct eye relief, plus run a longer length of pull than I'm accustomed used to using. Worthwhile compromises, though, to achieve a proper cheek weld and optimum eye relief.

Another issue facing certain shooters of the gas guns is the desirability to have the scope mounted coaxially with clip on observation devices. This means you aren't going to be able to get the scope lower than the 1.5" axis above the flat top range.

 

[MSTN]

Not crazy about the foam wrap on the buffer tube. Yea they have em on the ar pistols but your not laying cheek on it.

Quite a few stocks out there use foam on the stock tube. I find it very comfortable to use. You might feel differently if you had the chance to try it.

Another example:

As firm as the foam is, it's especially appreciated when emptying a dozen 12 gauge slugs expeditiously.

 

[Cobracutter]

.308 has no recoil to manage.

Once again the retard enters and cannot fathom the differences in purpose between Semi and Bolt guns.......

Didn't know they let Jerry's kids out on the weekends, much less on the Internet.

 

[Cobracutter]

Quite a few stocks out there use foam on the stock tube. I find it very comfortable to use. You might feel differently if you had the chance to try it.

Another example:

As firm as the foam is, it's especially appreciated when emptying a dozen 12 gauge slugs expeditiously.

WES,

Yea plenty use foam, but look at what this is. Its trying to be a precision stock......not an off the rack M4, FAL folder or the like.

I think that stock actually looks really good on that AK. It's bubba fucked but the stock would fix some of the problems with most AK stocks. Couple a folding trunnion and you might be cooking with gasoline as long as the price is not outrageous.

As far as AR stocks, Been using SOPMOD and the newer Bravos on my guns over over 10 years. Still haven't found anything that works better for CQB, normal range and shooting longer ranges with the AR15/10's.

 

[MSTN]

WES,

Yea plenty use foam, but look at what this is. Its trying to be a precision stock......not an off the rack M4, FAL folder or the like.

I think that stock actually looks really good on that AK. It's bubba fucked but the stock would fix some of the problems with most AK stocks. Couple a folding trunnion and you might be cooking with gasoline as long as the price is not outrageous.

As far as AR stocks, Been using SOPMOD and the newer Bravos on my guns over over 10 years. Still haven't found anything that works better for CQB, normal range and shooting longer ranges with the AR15/10's.

I agree that you simply can't improve on the SOPMOD cheek weld. Vltor, Magpul, LMT, and no doubt many others all employ the same stock profile as developed for the Colt Advanced Combat Rifle (ACR) stock for the Army program by that same name that ended in 1990. At least the warfighter eventually got something useful out of that multi-million dollar boondoggle.

Until you've tried a stock with adjustable length of pull, cast off, and cant, you really don't know what you might be missing.

 

[Cobracutter]

Yea I agree as well. But for an AR, and what it is used for, and why it's used, it just doesn't seem like it would make a difference

I have all those adjustments and more on my shotguns (where it makes a huge difference, because you don't actually Aim) and on some of my LR guns like the KRG Chassis, but the AR is about putting accurate rounds down range fast, and being versatile. You don't need those minuscule adjustments as they don't really translate to more effective rounds on target. Hence why some PFC in the 75th can shoot a SR-25/MK11 to its performance envelope using a bare A2 stock. We not setting tiny group records with these guns, and there are just to many diminishing returns and trade off IMO.

This whole 18lb 24" inch AR bench gun shit people are doing today just defeats itself.

I do like that stock on an AK however, there is a void in quality AK parts out there and that looks like it might be a winner (if the price is not insane).

 

[MSTN]

This isn't an 18 pound rig, not even close. And this stock only weighs what a carbine stock would weigh. The stock ended up on a precision rig with an admittedly big optic, simply because I wanted to check out a new barrel.

Next, I'll throw it on a go-fast 3-Gun format upper (another sport where people also don't always aim!).

 

[Winny94]

How much is the going rate going to be?

 

[BERTMAN77MK2]

Yes, what is the estimated price? Who are the HIDE vendors gonna be?

 

[delfuego]

I like it, and would love to try one out. Yeah, those AMU guys don't know much I also think it would be great for Disabled Vets with adaptive needs.

Your best bet with cobracutter is just add him to the "ignore list". He talks shit about everything and helps nobody.

 

[MSTN]

Hey, I like Cobracutter. He's got the mindset of a great sparring partner. He'd always be coming at you, always looking for that opening.

Cobracutter and I agree on almost everything, really.

For example, we agree the .308 does exhibit some recoil. That's a start.

We both admire the amazing ergonomic advance of the LMT SOPMOD stock's cheek weld.

He likes a stock with multiple means to adjust it to conform with his point of aim, for his shotgun. I like these same features, in a stock for my AR'.

 

[MSTN]

OK, here you have the R&R stock on a 3-Gun rig with custom MSTN 17" "JLZ" barrel (for "Just Like Zak's" - designed by Zak Smith of Thunderbeast). A 34 ounce barrel in a 6 pound, 15 ounce rig. Not a lightweight, by any means. But, definitely not an 18 pound 24" gun.

Most stages shot in 3-Gun locally are 50 yards and closer. Yes, some very close targets. No, you're not aiming each shot quite like you might in F-Class. So, a weapon that more closely aligns with your Mk 1 Mod 0 chassis will be more intuitive and smoother.

The more I work with this stock, the better I'm liking it.

 

[Winny94]

OK, here you have the R&R stock on a 3-Gun rig with custom MSTN 17" "JLZ" barrel (for "Just Like Zak's" - designed by Zak Smith of Thunderbeast). A 34 ounce barrel in a 6 pound, 15 ounce rig. Not a lightweight, by any means. But, definitely not an 18 pound 24" gun.

Most stages shot in 3-Gun locally are 50 yards and closer. Yes, some very close targets. No, you're not aiming each shot quite like you might in F-Class. So, a weapon that more closely aligns with your Mk 1 Mod 0 chassis will be more intuitive and smoother.

The more I work with this stock, the better I'm liking it.

I'm sold if the price is right. Got an estimate?

 

[MSTN]

How much?

$295 complete with receiver end plate, tube nut, Vltor A5 (in A1 weight) buffer and rifle length recoil spring.

This is not a production item. We just had a run of twelve made as a proof of concept type of thing.

Feel free to IM me if interested.

 

[Winny94]

How much?

$295 complete with receiver end plate, tube nut, Vltor A5 (in A1 weight) buffer and rifle length recoil spring.

This is not a production item. We just had a run of twelve made as a proof of concept type of thing.

Feel free to IM me if interested.

Ouch. Thank you for the info though.

 

[t-payne]

That looks very similar to the tac-mod stock. Except the tac-mod has an adjustable cheek piece....

 

[MSTN]

That looks very similar to the tac-mod stock. Except the tac-mod has an adjustable cheek piece....

I'm a huge fan of adjustable cheekpieces, where appropriate. It's a great way to achieve the optimum cheek weld for a stable position:

The purpose of an adjustable cheekpiece, is, again, a means to achieve an optimum cheek weld for a stable position, not just to be able to say you have an adjustable cheekpiece. As Mr. Spuhr made clear above, the optimum cheek weld is best achieved on a gas gun by optimizing the height of the optic via the mounting system.

When we do see an adjustable cheekpiece on a gas gun, it has to be positioned quite far rearward, to leave room for the charging handle to cycle:

This head position necessitates a significantly longer length of pull than might be optimum otherwise, but is sometimes the only solution.

 

[ipsick]

Looks like the stock off an XLR Chassis with out the adjustable cheek rest.

 

[MSTN]

Very similar idea.

 

[MSTN]

But, what does it weigh?!?

 

[swhiteh3]

Which adjustable stock is this?

 

[BC83]

Which adjustable stock is this?

That could be the WOA stock.

 

[FALex]

I know at least one thing from this post. This MSTN dude has some shuper shweet rifles!!

Also, I thought the ACE FX stock that came with my LRP was going to be gone the day I received the thing (has a foam pad too, no cheek height adjustment). However, upon getting the scope mounted (using a Badger mount, which was one of the lowest I could find at 1.30" for a Bushnell XRS), I found it to be quite comfortable and actually allowed me to obtain a good and consistent cheek weld. It is still on the rifle as a matter of fact.

This looks to be a nice contender to precision AR stocks. The light weight is appealing as well.

MSTN - I attempted to PM you, but maybe you have them turned off as it is not available when I click on your name...

 

[BigBlue&Goldie]

I love the foam on my ACE stocks. I havent found a more comfortable cheek rest on any rifle, regardless of type.

 

[oldfatguy]

.308 has no recoil to manage.

Then you are not loading it correctly.

OFG

 

[shooter545]

I think Wes had been banned form SH, for some of his opinions on muzzle devices. A shame because he is only second to Chris Murray in who has taught me what I know about the AR platform. He knows a lot and I think that that knowledge will be missed here.

 

[FALex]

I think Wes had been banned form SH, for some of his opinions on muzzle devices. A shame because he is only second to Chris Murray in who has taught me what I know about the AR platform. He knows a lot and I think that that knowledge will be missed here.

Ah, makes sense. Thanks for the info.

 

[redrocksmarc]

I agree that a SAPR from Battleline is the best way to go. I have three of them for my guns two SOPMOD and one for the Magpul. By far the best adjustable stock on the market. Yes it has LOP but now the Cant and height of the shoulder rest. The adjustable cheek rest of the best part. No other stock or attachment for a stock can even come close. I have one Gen 1 and the other two are the Gen 2 versions. The Gen 2 versions are much lighter and feel very smooth.

 

[Cobracutter]

Banned, for what? Link?

Hard to imagine, hes one of the more knowledgeble AR builders out there.