Rifle Scopes New Razor????

[Rob01]

And that's why there are choices. The scope is what it is. Same for the Razor II which weight didn't slow it down at all for match shooters. And using this scope doesn't mean you have to have a 20+ pound rifle. My 6.5 and now 6mm creed is at about 16.5 pounds with a Razor II on top. My .308 is about 17 pounds. No it's not a light weight hunting scope. Need that get the LHT. All comes down to how you set the rifle up for the end weight of the rifle.

And the balance thing is what it is. Already been beaten in this thread. Seems like only AI chassis guys have issues.

 

[rhsc]

I've got a Razor HD II ordered from Scott/Liberty Optics, but am still waiting for it to arrive. I'm very amused in this Razor 'weight' issue: how is 8-10 oz's an issue on a 21+ lbs PRS rig? I've had several friends spend $600 on a light weight hunting stock when they have a 30 lbs tire around their middle. Hilarious! Seems some folks just have to bitch about something.

Oh, you skinny guys.

If you had ever carried a 30 lb tire around your middle, you would understand why we want to cut down on the weight of everything else we have to carry!

Seriously though, this scope looks really interesting, however much it weighs. So many nice scopes are coming to market in the sub-$2000 class - this Razor III, the illuminated Burris XTR III (hey, hope springs eternal! ) and the Sightron SVIII - we are being presented with a wealth of new options!

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Oh, you skinny guys.

If you had ever carried a 30 lb tire around your middle, you would understand why we want to cut down on the weight of everything else we have to carry!

Seriously though, this scope looks really interesting, however much it weighs. So many nice scopes are coming to market in the sub-$2000 class - this Razor III, the illuminated Burris XTR III (hey, hope springs eternal! ) and the Sightron SVIII - we are being presented with a wealth of new options!

I’d be shocked if it was sub $2800, let alone $2k.

The gen 2 was $2500 street price for a long time.

 

[GenericBadGuy]

It's kinda funny to me because I have a Vortex Razor HD LH 2-10X40 on my 8 lb Weatherby hunting rifle and it has incredible clarity and eyebox. If you want light there are a lot of other options.

 

[rhsc]

I’d be shocked if it was sub $2800, let alone $2k.

The gen 2 was $2500 street price for a long time.

Guess that makes me an optimist then.

If it turns out to be as expensive as you predict, then it will have some tough competition. Really tough. In which case, it better be good!

 

[beetroot]

And that's why there are choices. The scope is what it is. Same for the Razor II which weight didn't slow it down at all for match shooters. And using this scope doesn't mean you have to have a 20+ pound rifle. My 6.5 and now 6mm creed is at about 16.5 pounds with a Razor II on top. My .308 is about 17 pounds. No it's not a light weight hunting scope. Need that get the LHT. All comes down to how you set the rifle up for the end weight of the rifle.

And the balance thing is what it is. Already been beaten in this thread. Seems like only AI chassis guys have issues.

I'll stop banging on about this after this post I promise...

The choices in this area really aren't that good, particularly for a crossover scope.
For higher mag scopes for hybrid hunting/target there are some options (primarily 6-24 AMG) but no good options in the 3-20ish mag range.
A new lower mag AMG model would be perfect for this but goodness knows how many years that will be away.

-LHT doesn't have a good FOV on minimum magnification, and 6mil turrets not so good for some purposes.
-Nx8 2.5-20 has weird optical properties.
-Mark 3.6-18 has rubbish reticles and $600 upcharge for illumination.
-Bushnell DMR3 tunnels thus has bad FOV on low end.
-Razor 3-18 is too heavy.
-Burris XTR3 reticle is too thin (for now).

There's a few cheaper scopes and some more expensive that nearly hit the mark but still nothing that quite get there.

The 3-15x44 PST actually fits this role pretty well but could do with a touch more magnification and a thicker reticle but ticks most boxes.
Biggest issue is lack of locking/capped windage, which yes isn't the end of the world but is something that has caught me out a few times and catches people out when the turret gets bumped inadvertently.

 

[Northernjets]

I'll stop banging on about this after this post I promise...

The choices in this area really aren't that good, particularly for a crossover scope.
For higher mag scopes for hybrid hunting/target there are some options (primarily 6-24 AMG) but no good options in the 3-20ish mag range.
A new lower mag AMG model would be perfect for this but goodness knows how many years that will be away.

-LHT doesn't have a good FOV on minimum magnification, and 6mil turrets not so good for some purposes.
-Nx8 2.5-20 has weird optical properties.
-Mark 3.6-18 has rubbish reticles and $600 upcharge for illumination.
-Bushnell DMR3 tunnels thus has bad FOV on low end.
-Razor 3-18 is too heavy.
-Burris XTR3 reticle is too thin (for now).

There's a few cheaper scopes and some more expensive that nearly hit the mark but still nothing that quite get there.

The 3-15x44 PST actually fits this role pretty well but could do with a touch more magnification and a thicker reticle but ticks most boxes.
Biggest issue is lack of locking/capped windage, which yes isn't the end of the world but is something that has caught me out a few times and catches people out when the turret gets bumped inadvertently.

X2. My issue with the PST II was that it didn't take long to stiffen right up from the cold up here. If there was already an 4-20 style AMG option, no one here would be complaining. the ZC420 gets closed, but it's still pretty chunky on top of a normal hunting rifle. Also, to be quite honest, using an optic for weight doesn't always work as weight and balance wise it drags the C of G aft and up. My match rifle with a ZCO is much better balanced than when I ran the gen II despite the raw weight. Argue it all you want, but not all weight is equal. Having said that, I do look forward to seeing this as a possible 22lr option now that the parallax goes down to 10yds.

For the record Rob01, I have issues with balance on my 20" 223 in a W3 and my 22lr in an MPA. A lot of chassis are rear heavy. I don't want to have to add weight to the front for all my rifles.

 

[M77]

Hopefully it lives up to the high end glass claims and I'll be sure to run one regardless of the colour or not.
Didn't stop me running two G2 razors and a g1 5-20.

 

[supercorndogs]

Its funny when testing scopes, I have never noticed much difference in rifle balance going from a "light scope" to a "heavy scope." 27 ounce scope, to a 40 ounce scope., 13 ounces, or less than a pound total weight, centered mostly over the action very close to the balance point, with the second largest distribution in front of the mag well, where the objective lens and housing live. So what have we actually added behind our balance point. 9 ounces? As long s the razor is I would guess around 50% of the weight is behind the balance point.

Man, my rifle gets all off balance from a full ten round mag to an empty one. Does anyone have small weights so I can add the weight from each round back to my gun as I fire. THE BALANCE MAN< THE BALANCE>!!!!!!

I have a 30" full profile barrel rifle. I wish they would make this scope 8lbs so it would balance my rifle out for me. Its kind of nose heavy when shooting it offhand with these damn light 40oz scopes. Why aren't these manufactures catering to the specific needs for balancing my rifle when they design a scope. ITs bullshits I tells ya.

The LH 2-10 is great hunting scope, but not for them ombre's who recon they need them tactical turrets on their Fudd'n guns.

 

[Tritiumdials]

I just want to know the price when it hits ExpertVoice.

 

[Rob01]

Its funny when testing scopes, I have never noticed much difference in rifle balance going from a "light scope" to a "heavy scope." 27 ounce scope, to a 40 ounce scope., 13 ounces, or less than a pound total weight, centered mostly over the action very close to the balance point, with the second largest distribution in front of the mag well, where the objective lens and housing live. So what have we actually added behind our balance point. 9 ounces? As long s the razor is I would guess around 50% of the weight is behind the balance point.

Man, my rifle gets all off balance from a full ten round mag to an empty one. Does anyone have small weights so I can add the weight from each round back to my gun as I fire. THE BALANCE MAN< THE BALANCE>!!!!!!

I have a 30" full profile barrel rifle. I wish they would make this scope 8lbs so it would balance my rifle out for me. Its kind of nose heavy when shooting it offhand with these damn light 40oz scopes. Why aren't these manufactures catering to the specific needs for balancing my rifle when they design a scope. ITs bullshits I tells ya.

The LH 2-10 is great hunting scope, but not for them ombre's who recon they need them tactical turrets on their Fudd'n guns.

Awesome. Exactly. I have moved my AMG to a rifle and swapped to a Razor II and felt no difference. Same with going from a 35 ounce scope to a 48.5 ounce scope. But then again my rifles aren't 20+ pound behemoths. I think people get way to hung up on this new balance requirement that's come up over the past couple years and thinking it has to be perfectly balanced to shoot well off anything. Man those killer 8-10 ounces in the scope is why I missed those targets said no one ever. LOL

 

[supercorndogs]

Mine aren't really too heavy either, probably my heaviest is 15 pounds. 700 with a 23 inch Kreiger Remington varmint profile in a Manners T6. It has worn many stocks and scopes over the years. IT flat out shoots with all combos tried.

 

[srt-4_uk]

I just want to know the price when it hits ExpertVoice.

Whatever the price is, it's cheaper from Liberty Optics.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Lots of weight complaints about the Razor II, which is heavier, back when it came out about 7 years ago but it became one of the most highly used optics in matches. This is lighter, with better glass and once they get in hands I am sure the public will be more than happy with the package. Is it for backwoods hunters humping mountains? Nope that's what the LHT 4.5-22 is for but for match shooters and recreational shooters who want a scope with a large power range, low parallax especially for rimfire, and a ton of elevation and don't want to spend $4000 on a ZCO then it will have a good spot in the optics market.

This thing sounds awesome to me! Can't wait. Once I see some folks compare the glass and get a good idea of what the glass is like, I will be a buyer. It's exactly what I've been looking for and won't cost what a March does, which is the only thing that compares to it from what I understand.

 

[drglock]

Dang 45oz, I might have to add external weights.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Any drawings of the new reticle floating around yet?

 

[jakelly]

Who gives a shit what color it comes it. That is the absolute dumbest reason to bitch.

Buy a can of kyrlon if you care that much about your scope matching your heels and panties.

Vortex and their Tactical Rose Gold.

 

[WhiteDingo]

Any drawings of the new reticle floating around yet?

This was shared with me.

 

[beetroot]

So they've finally put .2mil hashes down the vertical stadia.
Much prefer only the main cross being illuminated.

 

[Birddog6424]

I ran more holdovers this year than I did in the last several years combined. I competed in several matches with 90 second par times, including the Finale. It was a lot easier to get those shots off on stages with lots of transitions.

One thing I figured out in a hurry is those .5 markers in between the 1 mil lines are a God send. I used those as reference 30 to 40% of the time on holdovers with wind. Im surprised they've left them off of this reticle. Those have become a non-negotible on grid reticles for me.

 

[Mr. F]

I think Vortex will sell a metric shit ton of these. The .2 vertical hash is all the gen 2 was missing.

I get that we beat this already but some of the responses from what i think are experienced shooters above makes no sense to me. This aint a rant but AI or not, really, BALANCE, is that just an afterthought when it comes to the weight of the scope?

Primer seating depths, annealing processes for brass, + - 5% bullet weight sorting, mass transfer analysis worthy equipment to measure kernels of extruded powder down to fractions of a grain, seating sensors to QC seating depth, mass dampening devices or “harmonic tuning devices” also referred to seismic dampners…otherwise know as “barrel tuners” to get perfect bullet composition… the list goes on and on.

Left hand gain twist…tunable gas port muzzle breaks… can be here all night.

All to get a point of from hitting a plate of steel either smack on the center or on its edge…it really doesn’t matter, a hit is a hit and that’s a point (or two depending on the game)

So why we are shooting down the notion that balance has a measurable impact on performance as much or more of the things i listed above?

You could argue that any or all of them if done right will increase your shot hit probability to an extent….no ones argues that.

But fuck balance? So i guess fuck weights too?

Just an interesting topic to me…and im algo waiting on the smoker to hit temp so…

 

[sleeplz]

I think Vortex will sell a metric shit ton of these. The .2 vertical hash is all the gen 2 was missing.

I get that we beat this already but some of the responses from what i think are experienced shooters above makes no sense to me. This aint a rant but AI or not, really, BALANCE, is that just an afterthought when it comes to the weight of the scope?

Primer seating depths, annealing processes for brass, + - 5% bullet weight sorting, mass transfer analysis worthy equipment to measure kernels of extruded powder down to fractions of a grain, seating sensors to QC seating depth, mass dampening devices or “harmonic tuning devices” also referred to seismic dampners…otherwise know as “barrel tuners” to get perfect bullet composition… the list goes on and on.

Left hand gain twist…tunable gas port muzzle breaks… can be here all night.

All to get a point of from hitting a plate of steel either smack on the center or on its edge…it really doesn’t matter, a hit is a hit and that’s a point (or two depending on the game)

So why we are shooting down the notion that balance has a measurable impact on performance as much or more of the things i listed above?

You could argue that any or all of them if done right will increase your shot hit probability to an extent….no ones argues that.

But fuck balance? So i guess fuck weights too?

Just an interesting topic to me…and im algo waiting on the smoker to hit temp so…

Not so much fuck balance. It’s that the scope location and weight difference in scopes make it tend to not matter. Especially when you can add weights. There’s a 15 year old girl running the gen 2 and winning matches but the scope is too heavy for some men….

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Any chance they have a non tree reticle option? Or is that just wishful thinking….

 

[beetroot]

Not so much fuck balance. It’s that the scope location and weight difference in scopes make it tend to not matter. Especially when you can add weights. There’s a 15 year old girl running the gen 2 and winning matches but the scope is too heavy for some men….

Is she running one on her hunting rifle too or just her barricade benchrest rifle?

 

[sleeplz]

Is she running one on her hunting rifle too or just her barricade benchrest rifle?

This is America, so whichever one she wants.

 

[Mr. F]

Not so much fuck balance. It’s that the scope location and weight difference in scopes make it tend to not matter. Especially when you can add weights. There’s a 15 year old girl running the gen 2 and winning matches but the scope is too heavy for some men….

Lol fuck, did you even read my post

 

[beetroot]

This is America, so whichever one she wants.

To right! Sing it loud cow boy

 

[dirtytough]

My brother got one last week I believe. His is 45.40 oz.

 

[5RWill]

My brother got one last week I believe. His is 45.40 oz.

Damnit man, pics! Tell him to send you pics!

 

[dirtytough]

Damnit man, pics! Tell him to send you pics!

He did lol. I agree with previous posts about the color.

I’m not a competition shooter so I wasn’t that interested in it. A little heavy for what I do. I will get to try it out the second week of January.

 

[5RWill]

He did lol. I agree with previous posts about the color.

I’m not a competition shooter so I wasn’t that interested in it. A little heavy for what I do. I will get to try it out the second week of January.

Will you share them please? Maybe a video of the turret? I'm not worried about the color or weight, that much seems to be set in stone. I always liked the Gen II color anyway. I do wish it was sub 40oz but that horse has been beaten to death. For it's purpose it doesn't matter. I want to see the rest of the scope though. Turrets are locking? How many Mils per rev?

Or is he under NDA?

 

[dirtytough]

I called him earlier about loading for an AR and he was busy with cleaning up Xmas stuff.

If there isn’t an NDA I’ll pass on the info.

 

[Sniperwannabee]

Retro turrets look like Gen 1 almost as tall

i was thinking the excat thing

 

[koshkin]

Until Vortex officially releases it, it would be quite impolite on my part to be posting pictures.
I think the scope will do well. I'll have a some impressions ready to go when Vortex says it is OK to release information.

ILya

 

[Eric32]

Also throw in a comparision with the M7Xi, if you don't mind.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Until Vortex officially releases it, it would be quite impolite on my part to be posting pictures.
I think the scope will do well. I'll have a some impressions ready to go when Vortex says it is OK to release information.

ILya

Compare it to the best, no reason not to. It may be less money than a zco or TT but that's what everyone will compare it to because that's the best available.

When Vortex gives you the go ahead of course. Love your reviews, and your opinions carry the most weight of anyone, by far.

 

[koshkin]

Also throw in a comparision with the M7Xi, if you don't mind.

I do not have a 4-28x56 M7Xi on hand. I do have a 2.9-20x50 that I rather like, but that is a different objective size.

ILya

 

[koshkin]

Compare it to the best, no reason not to. It may be less money than a zco or TT but that's what everyone will compare it to because that's the best available.

When Vortex gives you the go ahead of course. Love your reviews, and your opinions carry the most weight of anyone, by far.

I have a TT 5-25x56 and March 5-42x56 on hand which should give me a reasonable idea on how it compares to the really fancy stuff.

As far as other 56mm scopes go, I have Sightron SVIII 5-40x56 and Delta Stryker 4.5-30x56.

That should give me a pretty good idea of where the performance of the Gen3 falls compared to the market.

I do not think I have any other relevant 56mm scopes here, but I'll check.

ILya

 

[sleeplz]

I have a TT 5-25x56 and March 5-42x56 on hand which should give me a reasonable idea on how it compares to the really fancy stuff.

As far as other 56mm scopes go, I have Sightron SVIII 5-40x56 and Delta Stryker 4.5-30x56.

That should give me a pretty good idea of where the performance of the Gen3 falls compared to the market.

I do not think I have any other relevant 56mm scopes here, but I'll check.

ILya

Do you have reviews of the March vs TT anywhere?

 

[akmike47]

Hell I just wish I could afford a Gen 2.

This suckers going to be cool though.

 

[koshkin]

Do you have reviews of the March vs TT anywhere?

I have TT in a couple of different High End Tactical articles. I do not have a direct TT vs March yet, but it is coming. I have been messing with full production March 5-42x56 for a little while now and when I publish a full review, it will include a comparison to TT.

ILya

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I have TT in a couple of different High End Tactical articles. I do not have a direct TT vs March yet, but it is coming. I have been messing with full production March 5-42x56 for a little while now and when I publish a full review, it will include a comparison to TT.

ILya

That's the one I've had my eye on. That High master system seems pretty dang good and that's a mag range that can allow for anything you'd ever want to do with it.

 

[Scott_at_Vortex]

Any idea when these are expected to hit the street Rob?

I need to pick a new rimfire optic in the next month or two and this one seems like it may be serious competitor to the others I am looking at (Leica/Ziess/ATACR735)

They will be available at dealers as soon as we announce them in January.

 

[sleeplz]

They will be available at dealers as soon as we announce them in January.

Please don’t Burris us. Is there a regular crosshair reticle available?

 

[Mormegil87]

I'm really looking forward to seeing these in person. The posted screen shots of the specs has me intrigued. I've even held off on snagging another Mk5 just to see how this shakes out.

I seldom agree with @DeathBeforeDismount . I really don't care what color it is as long as it checks the boxes for the features I'm looking at. If I hate it that much, I'll wrap it or cerakote it.

 

[Safety_3rd]

Is it January yet?

 

[anginaprinzmetal]

I know this has been asked before but any one has any idea on MSRP?

 

[LV Precision]

I know this has been asked before but any one has any idea on MSRP?

I’m betting on MSRP $3600-3800, street price of $2800.

 

[JaoeyP]

I know this has been asked before but any one has any idea on MSRP?

We don't know. There's only been speculation.

 

[Draftpick]

I’m betting on MSRP $3600-3800, street price of $2800.

That would be a big gap and hard to compete against the new Bushnell, Burris. IMHO vortex has been the one that has given the consumer a lot for there money has been what made them popular. At some point price becomes a small diminishing return. The new Bushnell would be $1000 cheaper with your street price. That is a big gap the market has become more competitive, again IMHO that is going to turn away customers when they can get close for $1000 less. I want a 35x ish power scope and love vortex, have a Gen2 razor and Razor AMG, if the new Gen 3 razor is $2800 I will definitely give the Bushnell a look!