new rifle help please

[JustSomeOldGuy]

Hello everyone, first post here.

I have been mostly a handgun guy, and just recently became interested in long range shooting. At first I assumed shooting my FN SCAR at 100 yards wouldn’t be very exciting, but I quickly became obsessed with shooting sub MOA.

I have no professional background in this area, so I am hoping to get the help of the good people here. I would like to get a rifle, about $2k or less, and a scope for it in the $2k to $3k range.

After a lot of reading, no actual experience, it looks like the 6.5 Creedmoor would be a good choice. There is a range I can visit to shoot out to 1k yards. After looking at Savage, Ruger, and Tikka I am thinking of getting the Tikka T3x Tac A1. Not sure if that is a good or bad choice for a noob. The new 6.5 PRC looks interesting, but not sure I want to wait to see how that works out.

The other big choice seems to be the scope. The more I read reviews the more uncertain I become. The common choices seem to be Vortex Razor HD 4.5-27x56, Nightforce ATACR F1 5-25x56, S&B PM II 5-25x56. The Razor looks to be on sale so that is the least expensive, the next looks like the S&B for $2395, and I am not sure if the Nightforce is on sale anywhere so that looks to be the most expensive.

Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Nik H]

Welcome to SH. It is a great place to learn.

I have shot the three rifles you mention. They all have pros/cons like any rifle does. However, I personally preferred the Tika over the RPR and the Savage. I like the trigger and the ergonomics most of all. The RPR can be customized the most but that means extra $$$ above the price. I am not a Savage fan for a variety of reasons but I shoot with people who swear by Savage.

Have you ever handled any of them? I would strongly suggest that you do that if possible. What one man likes, another won't.

Any of the scopes that you mentioned are tier 1 and you won't be disappointed. I would make a list of what features matter to you most and rank the scopes against that list. My primary criterion is tracking and return to zero followed by reticle. Some rate glass as their primary criterion. Everyone is different.

Since you are considering all the top contenders, don't make a decision based on a few hundred dollars difference. That difference is a drop in the bucket against what you will spend on ammo over the time that you own the scope. Buy what you like and never look back. I own an S&B 5-25 and a NF ATACR 7-35 along with a few others. I've never regretted buying the best I can afford.

 

[RNWRKNP]

I second Nik’s statements across the board. Tikka and my personal preference is Nightforce only because they are based out of the states. S&B is a rockstar as well.

 

[RedRyder]

Tikka T3x Tac A1 - good choice. Get it in a 260 Remington though. As far as glass, I've always gone with Nightforce. Reticles are used for range estimation so unless you're going to spend a LOT of time practicing ranging, there's no real need to get a wildly sophisticated reticle. Anymore, I think it's safe to say, ranging is accomplished with laser range finders (LRF)

 

[Codiekfx400]

For someone who wants to buy factory ammunition and shoot long range the 6.5 Creedmoor is a excellent choice. On the scope side of things don’t forget about the Khales k624i it’s a fantastic scope and in your price range.

 

[stwcattle]

The 260 mentioned by RedRyder would be a excellent choice but with near identical ballistics to 800 yards and the abundance of very good factory ammunition, I'd opt for the 6.5 creedmoor in the Tikka.
All the scopes you mentioned would be nice choices.

 

[davsco]

if you don't reload, 6.5 creed over the 260 all day long. way more match quality ammo choices.

 

[JustSomeOldGuy]

Thank you very much to everyone for all the feedback, it helps a lot.

Looks like the Tikka Tac A1 in 6.5 Creedmoor would be a good choice right now since I don’t reload.

Since scopes seems to be a matter more of preference between the ones mentioned, I just have a quick question. The Vortex is on sale for $2150 all in right now, is that a good enough price to jump on it, or should I just wait and do more research? The warranty seems great but it looks to be quite heavy. Does another 10oz or so matter with precision long range shooting?

I have no experience with high end scopes, so that is why I am looking for recommendations. Although I am afraid I am opening an expensive can of worms if I get addicted to long range shooting, oh well.

 

[Nik H]

Just my 2 cents so take it for what it is worth.

The price for the Vortex appears solid but check around. Even dealers that list for higher are making deals that are not advertised, especially if you are paying cash. The 10 ounce weight difference is really not an issue. Know lots of guys running a Vortex and none have ever complained about the weight.

Just make sure you are understanding why you are buying a Vortex versus an S&B or NF. Goes back to what is important to you and where the Vortex and others stack up against the list of requirements. If you haven't done that yet, I urge you to do it before you spend the cash.

This hobby is not an inexpensive one, especially if you want to become proficient.

 

[brianf]

welcome to the club...i mean the expensive can of worms club.
just remember that its the indian not the arrow.
With the gear you are looking at dont let anyone tell you different.
the next time you spend money on this set up is when you get the itch not because your missing the target.

the weight is irrelevant with the type of shooting you are talking about, in fact the extra weight will shed more recoil and make it more enjoyable.
over the past 10 years scopes have come so far that any scope in that price range is separated by the ret you want and the look (which does count, just makes you feel good).

pick the one you want with a good warranty and you will be more than happy.
for years i was a specific name scope guy, doesnt hold true anymore.

find something with a max of 20-25X, you can go higher but 30+ power is more for 100-300 yard benchrest.

i have a 50X on one of my rifles that i sometimes shoot at longer distances and i never really get the chance to use it max power unless conditions are perfect.
but in close at a local range its like cheating.

if not wanting to break the bank you can get a NF NXS 5.5-22 for 1800 new $15-1600 used.
those were top tier scopes until a few years ago...they didnt get crappy and blurry all of a sudden.

i love the .260, but the 6.5 will get more and more popular and most likely have more/better choices of factory match ammo as time goes on.

 

[davsco]

especially before you buy glass, hit a precision rifle match and most if not everyone there will let you look at and through what they have. ditto for rifles, etc.

 

[Codiekfx400]

Here is another good scope choice https://shop.whittakerguns.com/product/47636. Lighter than the razor and this one is built in the USA.

 

[hollowoutadime]

I have both the Vortex you mentioned and the SB, The Vortex is great, but I replaced it with (yet) another 5x25 SB. Those Sb's were about $1000 higher a year or two ago, which is when/why I bought the less expensive Vortex.

 

[JustSomeOldGuy]

Two more questions if I may.
Suggestions for a scope mount, one piece, that would work with these scopes and the Tikka Tac A1? I know it is a 0 moa rifle, so I am guessing I need the right scope mount.

Also, any suggestions for a good bipod for this setup?
Thanks

 

[hollowoutadime]

Spuhr mount, 20moa, Atlas bipod. MileHigh or Eurooptics would get you the correct height. if you're an old guy (like me) you'll truly appreciate the good glass as your eyes don't get any better with age.

 

[brianf]

i second the spuhr. ive beat the piss out of 2 on field hunting rifles and hasnt missed a beat.
one piece/two piece is preference, both are fine. if you get down to the nittly gritty each has their pros/cons but there is no difference in performance.
in my experience i have had better return to zero after i remove a scope for air travel with one piece, might just be me though

 

[Ravenyzf-r6]

Have you checked out the PVA John Hancock rifles? On my short list and they are just under 2k.

 

[JustSomeOldGuy]

Thanks for the help everyone.
I have not heard of PVA, will have to look into it for next time.

Just worked with Derek at Euro Optic, he was very helpful, got the Tikka Tac A1 in 6.5 Creedmoor, the S&B PMii 5-25x56 L/P DT P4 fine mrad ccw, ERA-TAC one piece mount 20moa 1.44" high, and since I didn't know how much I will use the bipod just went with a cheap Harris 6-9 BRM-S.

Hopefully get it all next week.

Is it ok to practice with the Sellier and Bellot 6.5 Creemoor rounds since they are half the price of Hornady match? Any other ammo suggestions?

Should I be a fanatic about keeping round count or just wait until I see problems to get a new barrel?

 

[spife7980]

I mean, you dont have to be fanatical but keep it in mind. I know I ordered 1k bullets in one lot, so I know when I get through them I have 1k rounds through it. I couldnt tell you that 50 were fired this day, 25 this day, 100 this day but I can tell you that I just loaded up the seventh bag of 100 from that lot to load.

 

[RedRyder]

For Pete's sake man, WHATEVER YO DO DO NOT get rings that are vertically split. Oh bloody hell, Frank will have a meltdown.

As a little explanation about the above statement, there was a thread in the Optics Forum about some guy who bought rings that were split vertically.
The guy said he was wondering if the vertically split rings he was using was screwing up his scope mechanisms. Anyway, the thread went on and on and Frank became involved and said that most (maybe all but one manufacturer) vertically split rings were feces. Well, actually, I'm pretty sure he said "shit" but you get the point.

 

[RNWRKNP]

For Pete's sake man, WHATEVER YO DO DO NOT get rings that are vertically split. Oh bloody hell, Frank will have a meltdown.

As a little explanation about the above statement, there was a thread in the Optics Forum about some guy who bought rings that were split vertically.
The guy said he was wondering if the vertically split rings he was using was screwing up his scope mechanisms. Anyway, the thread went on and on and Frank became involved and said that most (maybe all but one manufacturer) vertically split rings were feces. Well, actually, I'm pretty sure he said "shit" but you get the point.

Dude don’t say shit like that? or shit like fake atlas bipods? you know how he gets?

 

[spife7980]

No idea what these other guys are talking about but to get it back in topic and current since you already have a scope and ring set up which is about as far as possible from what they are taking about... on the sellier: it’s fine to practice with, it’s not going to harm or ruin your barrel. Just don’t buy a whole lot of it before you verify that it shoots well. But that goes for any choice of ammo. There’s something to be said for “each shot of inaccurate crap ammo is just one accurate round off of your barrel life” or something like that.

 

[Codiekfx400]

Sounds like eurooptic got all your money great choice I’m sure it will be great. I have purchased from eurooptic in the past and they know how to take care of their customers. As far as that cheap ammo you mentioned I would stay away from it and get some Hornady American gunner 140 bthp. Or this https://www.outdoorlimited.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=h81500

 

[Nik H]

Thanks for the help everyone.
I have not heard of PVA, will have to look into it for next time.

Just worked with Derek at Euro Optic, he was very helpful, got the Tikka Tac A1 in 6.5 Creedmoor, the S&B PMii 5-25x56 L/P DT P4 fine mrad ccw, ERA-TAC one piece mount 20moa 1.44" high, and since I didn't know how much I will use the bipod just went with a cheap Harris 6-9 BRM-S.

Hopefully get it all next week.

Is it ok to practice with the Sellier and Bellot 6.5 Creemoor rounds since they are half the price of Hornady match? Any other ammo suggestions?

Should I be a fanatic about keeping round count or just wait until I see problems to get a new barrel?

Congrats

Buy good ammo versus looking at the cost of ammo. In this hobby there is a reason why cheap is cheap.

Keeping a log that is incredibly detailed is one of the most important things you can do. Buy yourself a data book. Go to YouTube and look at the Impact data book videos for help. If you don't record your outings, you will not grow in proficiency.

 

[Mj1995]

I would definitely keep an eye on the firearms Px section here as the are always deals on rifles for the price range you are looking for and you can probably pick something up on a custom action for not much more than your price range if you were willing.

 

[stwcattle]

Agree with above on shooting good ammo. 10 solid rounds that make sense on the target is a lot better than shooting 20 and not understanding impacts.

 

[demolitionman]

Some of the best newbie advice I've ever gotten; use matching reticle and turret values, and use the reticle like a ruler. Wysiwyg. What you see is what you get down range. Measure and adjust. Don't constantly chase shots in the wind though. Believe the bullet. The bullet tells the truth. If you don't have a preference go Mil/Mil unless all your shooting buddies shoot moa.

Keep in mind Hemispheric conditions as well:

 

[JustSomeOldGuy]

I can’t say enough about how great everyone here is, this information is really helpful to me .

I ordered a little of the cheap ammo just to see how it does, and the rest was the 140 and 147 Hornady Match to see how each one does. Just promise me no one will tell my wife that it costs $1.15 every time I pull the trigger.

I like to shoot, I go through more ammo than I probably should for all my guns. But with 9mm and 5.56 it is pretty darn cheap to shoot. Hopefully I don’t go crazy trying to learn at over a dollar a shot. If I do, I was wondering how hard it is to replace the barrel myself in the Tikka Tac A1? I am not a gun smith, but I do take my current guns down all the way sometimes, and have no trouble putting in new triggers and such. But I have never replaced a barrel. Any barrel manufactures you guys would recommend I look into for the day I need a new one?

Also, can I use my .223/5.56 cleaning rod with the 6.5 Creedmoor? I ordered new bore brushes and jag for it, but I wasn’t sure if I would need to buy another cleaning rod just for the 6.5cm?
Thanks.

 

[Nik H]

I would get yourself a properly sized cleaning rod and, most importantly, a bore guide.

Also remember that you can always sell the brass since you don't reload. Hornady typically fetches 25 cents per round.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Leave it to me to go off script right about here. But I haven't seen you mention any yardage beyond a reference to shooting your SCAR at 100yd.

Now everything you're hearing and talking here is smart and well worth following up. But I also sense as bit of a budget here that's pretty flexible.

Here's some oblique thinking. Shooting beyond 200yd or 300yd is not easy to do unless you have a bunch of your own land to do it on. Sooner or later, you're going to find a place that shoot to one or both those distances, and shooting a medium capacity cartridge is just going to become an exercise in overkill.

Build the rifle, shoot it and have plenty of fun. Then do this:

Pick yourself up a nice factory .223 with some beef in its barrel, a respectable length and twist (26", 1:9" should be very good), put it in a nice but affordable aftermarket tactical style stock, get yourself a good, affordable scope, and start doing more economical and perhaps even more satisfying group shooting.

Rifle: Cabelas Savage 12FV .223. This rifle will shoot the shorter length factory 75/77gr bullets quite well, as well as all the Varmint loads.
Stock: Choate Savage Short Action Tactical Stock
Scope: Mueller Target Rifle Side Focus 8-32x44 Scope
Base: Leupold 20 MOA scope base (Savage Short Action)
Rings: Vortex 30mm Six-Screw Tactical Rings Medium Height

I make a similar recommendation very often here. I have substituted the 12FV for the 11VT since the latter seems to be unavailable currently. I have a custom, it's a .260 built rather Spartan but discerningly on a 2000 Savage 10FP action, and I like it a lot; but I mainly shoot factory rifles for goals very similar to what you are discussing. I also don't believe in spending unnecessary cash.

Otherwise, I have two of these rifles currently running, a .308, and a .223 which has been shot middle of the pack in National level 600yd F T/R comp (once). They are neither F T/R Match winners, nor BR grade custom rifles, but I'm guessing that given time, you will end up shooting something very much like this rifle even more than the one you're discussing above.

You can gather all these parts together on a kitchen table and put it all together in roughly an hour all by yourself. All you'll need is a nice set of gunsmiths' screw drivers, maybe a gunsmith's torque wrench, and use some Lok-Tite Blue for the base screws.

By my accounting (remember to order two rings) this all currently comes together for $1019.94 before shipping.

Greg

PS, One thing to recognize about glass is that no matter what mid-to-high end scope you get, they all have two issues. At the very higher powers, atmospheric crud and mirage will make the top end of the magnification scale pretty iffy at least some of the time, more like usually. The optics and mounts I'm suggesting are what I use myself, with three sets currently up and running for several years now.

 

[W54/XM-388]

You got an excellent setup there.
Your choice of the S&B 5-25x56 is solid and that scope can last you through many rifle upgrades.
Eventually you will probably upgrade the rifle, bipod & mount, but the scope will go on for the next 20+ years.

If you want to shoot endlessly, it's worth getting a simple reloading kit, even if you just get a simple single stage & a couple other tools, After you reach the 1 of rounds mark you will have more than paid it off.

In the mean time, take good care of & save your brass for the day eventually you decide you need to reload.

 

[JustSomeOldGuy]

Ok, looking to order a new cleaning rod from BoreTech, seems like their blue handle one that is listed as .243 is the right one for 6.5cm.

Anyone know the right length rod for the Tikka T3x TAC A1? I know it has a 24" barrel, so I am guessing the 36" or the 40". I would prefer to go with the shortest one needed, but not sure if 36" is enough for the rifle and bore guide.

Again, thanks for all the input, I am taking down notes on everything people are posting.

 

[Nik H]

Ok, looking to order a new cleaning rod from BoreTech, seems like their blue handle one that is listed as .243 is the right one for 6.5cm.

Anyone know the right length rod for the Tikka T3x TAC A1? I know it has a 24" barrel, so I am guessing the 36" or the 40". I would prefer to go with the shortest one needed, but not sure if 36" is enough for the rifle and bore guide.

Again, thanks for all the input, I am taking down notes on everything people are posting.

I would go longer to deal with the brake

 

[Codiekfx400]

I would get the 243 brush and jag. It is my experience if you buy the 264 it will be too tight. I personally just use a 22 caliber Tipton carbon fiber rod for every caliber I clean and yes get the longer rod if you are purchasing a new one. A bore guide is a great idea as well.

 

[JustSomeOldGuy]

Is there any consensus on the most accurate/consistent factory ammo in 6.5 Creedmoor? Or do you just have to try some and see which one your rifle likes? I ordered the Hornady match ELD in 140 and 147, but they were out of the A-Max 140. Any suggestions on other ammo I should try?
Thanks

 

[Codiekfx400]

The most accurate ammo is going to be determined by your rifle. The 140 Amax is discontinued. You could try prime ammo or Hornady American gunner. Also https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....ain-hollow-point-boat-tail-match-20-round-box. Midsouthshooters is a good place to get ammo and they have the American gunner in stock right now.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I would suggest this, Hornady American Hunter 6.5 Creedmore 143grain ELD-X. I am finding that the ELD-X is very accurate, match accurate, in my .260 Rem handloads, and recent reporting here has suggested that the ELD-Match bullets do not have as good terminal performance.

So with the ELD-X you get the match accuracy all the time, and better terminal performance when that's also called for. At this point, I'm questioning the necessity for the Match loading.

When you click the link, take some time to read the customer reviews. This is an outstanding factory load.

Greg

 

[JustSomeOldGuy]

Just to recap, here is what I have ordered:

---Tikka T3x TAC A1 6.5 Creedmoor 24" Rifle
https://www.eurooptic.com/Tikka-T3x-TAC-A1-65-Creedmoor-24-.aspx
---Schmidt Bender PMII 5-25x56 L/P DT P4 Fine FFP MRAD
https://www.eurooptic.com/schmidt-bender-pmii-5-25x56-l-p-p4-fine-mrad-dt-ccw.aspx
---ERA-TAC One-Piece Mount 34mm 20 MOA 1.44" high Scope Mount
https://www.eurooptic.com/ERATAC-1-piece-scope-mount-short-T2014-2019.aspx
---Harris 6" - 9" Swivel Bipod with Leg Notches BRM-S
https://www.eurooptic.com/harris-brm-s-6-9-inch-swivel-bipod-with-leg-notches.aspx

I have read that some people lap their scope rings. With this setup would you recommend that or not? Any other advice for installing the scope and mount? This is my first precision rifle and first quality scope, so I didn’t want to do anything dumb.

Anything different to do with this rifle as far as cleaning and maintenance? Do I just do the same things as I do with my FN SCAR and IWI x95 rifles?

 

[Nik H]

I have the S&B 5-25 PMII in the same ERA-TEC mount that you purchased. I use it on my AR10.

Lapping is not necessary using high quality rings and mounts like the ERA, NF, Spuhr or many other tier 1 manufacturers.

 

[Tikka Tinker]

You will find a lot of opinions on this topic. It is true, the most reputable and quality rings need minor fine tuning....if any at all.
It boils down to how meticulous you are with your mounting. I used high end rings and lapped them to make sure I was getting as much contact as possible. It didn't take much lapping or time.....but it put my mind at ease.

 

[spife7980]

I have read that some people lap their scope rings. With this setup would you recommend that or not? Any other advice for installing the scope and mount? This is my first precision rifle and first quality scope, so I didn’t want to do anything dumb.

You paid a premium for well machined parts, dont go lapping and messing them up like you would try to on airsoft quality crap.

I set a plumb bob (string with a weight on the end) hanging up at 100 yards, shoulder the rifle so that its comfortable and then align the reticle with the string and lock it down in the mount. This allows you to have the scope oriented with gravity without having to muscle the rifle to get it there.

 

[JustSomeOldGuy]

Received everything, shot it once trying to figure things out.
Bottom line is, this rifle and scope are great, at least for me.

Quick question, should I get a monopod for the buttstock? They seem really expensive, $100 or so, for just a little thing, but it does seem pretty convenient when shooting off a bench not to have to lug front or rear bags with you to the range.

Was looking at this one. Would it be a good compliment to my 6”-9” bipod?
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...cision-rail-monopod-375-to-465-aluminum-black

 

[Codiekfx400]

Monopods are a personal preference to the shooter. A bag would give you better accuracy than the monopod. Personally I do not shoot bag or monopod when using a bipod.

 

[JustSomeOldGuy]

Wow, I am a noob, but this rifle and scope are just plain great.
Second time shooting it, trying to work out the kinks and I shot 1/2" to 3/4" five shot groups at 100 yards, even with cheap ammo.




Thanks again for all the help, even though you have helped get me addicted .

 

[Codiekfx400]

May I ask what ammo that was?

 

[JustSomeOldGuy]

May I ask what ammo that was?

Sorry, should have posted that.
Top left was Stellier & Bellot FMJ 140gr, cheapest stuff I could find.
Top right was Federal non typical whitetail 140gr, also pretty cheap.
Bottom 4 are all the expensive Hornady Match ELD 140gr.

 

[JustSomeOldGuy]

Another noob question, if I may.
I just got a Tikka T3x Tac A1 in 6.5cm, and I put the brake on it that came in the box.
How much louder, approximately, did I make it for those around me? I am just learning precision shooting, so I am not sure if you guys would recommend leaving it on or taking it off?

I ask after reading the now closed thread about whether muzzle brakes are too loud. I am just wondering how bad the included brake is?

 

[spife7980]

I would say it makes it seem 1.5x as loud to the shooter and 2x to the others beside them (depending on design).
Personally, I hate being around them but I wont begrudge someone that uses one. They have a very real tangible benefit to the shooter and if its a problem you or them can just move down the line a bit. The only time I say to never brake a rifle is if it will be used for hunting where you will have quick shots and no time to put in ear plugs. In that case one good boom can leave you ringing for days. I forgot my can on the 3006 one hunt, wont ever make that mistake again. With that said every single one of my personal rifles now have an asr brake anyways.

If you find its uncomfortably loud to you there is always the option to just take it off. Hell, do an on/off one day at the range and see which you prefer. Thats probably the most surefire way to find out which way you prefer.
If some bitchy old man culpeper complains to you about it tell him to shove it up his curmudgeony old butt. Everyone else will be more than cordial.

 

[hollowoutadime]

It's bad enough to look for another shooting bench. You stepped to the plate on the rifle and S&B scope, time to add a thunderbeast can. The 6.5 Ultra 7 (or 9") would be ideal.

 

[JustSomeOldGuy]

It's bad enough to look for another shooting bench. You stepped to the plate on the rifle and S&B scope, time to add a thunderbeast can. The 6.5 Ultra 7 (or 9") would be ideal.

Yes, I should definitely get a suppressor, but that is one subject I haven’t even started to research. Didn’t want to make a mistake in what I ordered then wait for a year to be able to use it. Is there one that I could use for the Tikka 6.5cm that I could also use on my .223/5.56 carbines, or would I need two different suppressors?