New rifles shoots 14 mils low

[Jack Master]

So a buddy bought a new factory (cheap) rifle and put it in a mdt chassis. We tried to zero it this weekend but the rifle shot 14 mills low from our bore sight and the scope can't adjust far enough to put poa at poi.

1. Bore sight was throught the barrel. I have done enough to usually get on paper right away, or at least hit the 4'x4' target board at 100yds.
2. Changed scopes just to bouble check. Same result.
3. Tried 2 factory ammunitions. Same result.
4. Double checks mdt chassis seating is correct. At all looked good.
5. Tried new shooter. Same result.

Shot from a stable bench with bags.

Any suggestion on what to try? Have you ever seen this happen and what could be the issue?

I think he is taking it back to the gun shop he bought it from and it will likely go back to the factory.

 

[XLR308]

What rifle, what caliber, what scope bases was he using ?

 

[Jack Master]

What rifle, what caliber, what scope bases was he using ?

6.5 creed. Savage(ya ya I know) . Sight mark. 2 piece cheep rings and base.
None of this gear would I choose but it's his money.
Let's stay off the shifty gear choices because is shouldn't effect the barrel sending rounds 14 mils low from bore sighting.

Swapped to a reliable vortex amg and one piece base and got the same results.

 

[XLR308]

6.5 creed. Savage(ya ya I know) . Sight mark. 2 piece cheep rings and base.
None of this gear would I choose but it's his money.
Let's stay off the shifty gear choices because is shouldn't effect the barrel sending rounds 14 mils low from bore sighting.

Swapped to a reliable vortex amg and one piece base and got the same results.

It could if the two piece bases aren't mounted in thier correct location or are wrong for the action.
Can't explain the one piece base without looking at it.

 

[spife7980]

Put it in the factory stock and check that.

Undo the zero stop.

Bed it.

 

[ma smith]

yep, also make sure there is no cross threaded bolt somewhere

 

[wade2big]

The 14 mil low after boresighting makes no sense at all, then you claim to do it again with another scope. Lost me there. There would have to be something visually wrong with the setup. Post pictures.

 

[Jack Master]

I don't think its a scope issue. We have taken the scope rings and bases off to make sure everything is as it should be. Everything seem to be on the up and up. Good screws and base contact to the action. Good rings contact to the bases and good scope contact to the rings.

Imagine it this way- I have open field sights in the rifle and it shoots 50 inches low at 100 yards. I say this because our "field sights" are true bore sighting... throught the bore... then it still shoot 50 inches low.

This has to be a barrel or chamber or action issue. Its not a scope issue that we can find.

 

[Jack Master]

The 14 mil low after boresighting makes no sense at all, then you claim to do it again with another scope. Lost me there. There would have to be something visually wrong with the setup. Post pictures.

I agree. We mostly did the 2nd scope to apeeze the rifle owner. To show him its not a scope issue. If i ever get to see the rifle again ill post pictures, but I'm betting it goes back to the factory.

I'm mostly looking for internal issues that could cause this.

 

[XLR308]

When you put the one piece base on did you happen to install the front screws only and check for a gap at the rear and then repeat the process for the rear checking for a gap at the front ?
And a bore sight that is 14mil or 50.4" off is minute of midget not exactly a bore sight.
Something isn't making sense.

 

[ma smith]

Seems its much easier to mess up the optic mount or mounting the action to chassis

 

[JBattles]

I would take the rifle back. Something is seriously wrong that you aren’t going to fix in a cheap rifle off by over 4 feet.

 

[bradthemarine]

Check the torque on the action screws. I had this happen to me around 13 years ago. Somebody torqued the rear action screw as hard as he could so the scope and barrel were pointing in different directions. I ran out of elevation real quick.

 

[gnochi]

If your boresight is consistently 4 feet off from point of impact at 100 yards, that sounds like a serious problem with the barrel flexing way more than it should. Send the rifle back to Savage.

A loose scope would have the zero shifting, but the first shot after bore sighting would be fairly close to on target. Action screws flexing things too much might make bore sighting impossible but wouldn’t result in that kind of spread between bore sighting point and point of impact.

 

[salks]

They will probably tell him to contact Savage. I had a problem with a savage rifle they paid for shipping twice actually to ship the rifle. I was more impressed with their customer service than the rifle. It is quicker to call them than wait on a e-mail. I would send it back and have them look at it.

 

[hlee]

Was it shot in its original stock?

 

[Jack Master]

Was it shot in its original stock?

No. But we will try that this week.

 

[Jack Master]

Update
He took the rifle back to the gun shop. They used alignment bars to check the scope rings and found them to be off so they gave him new scope rings and the bars lined up. They say that will fix it but I highly doubt it. We'll probably be shooting it again this week.

I plan to try the original stock and see what happens.
Anything else we should try if its still 14 mils low?

I'm just so miffed that a bore sight and poi can be so different. (has nothing to do with poa)

 

[spife7980]

Update
He took the rifle back to the gun shop. They used alignment bars to check the scope rings and found them to be off so they gave him new scope rings and the bars lined up. They say that will fix it but I highly doubt it. We'll probably be shooting it again this week.

I plan to try the original stock and see what happens.
Anything else we should try if its still 14 mils low?

I'm just so miffed that a bore sight and poi can be so different. (has nothing to do with poa)

Stick it in between two close tree branches and give it a slight bend back up.

Or send it back.

 

[357Max]

This makes no sense?
@Jack Master - Can you give a brief run down of the bore sighting process. What bore sight tool are you using? I'm thinking if it's not a proven good boresight laser, it could have the beam shooting at an angle? Try marking the back of the gauge with a sharpy, bore sight, then rotate the gauge 180 & try again.
How far off center do you have to adjust the scope to get it lined up with bore sight laser? Target distance used for bore sighting?
Is it a 20 moa base?
What Sightmark scope? Many of them only have 50 moa total elev. adj.

Edit: 14mils Fuck......that's not even Musket territory...did they miss stamp a 6 creed or .270 barrel. Is there rifling in it?

 

[jakelly]

Stick it in between two close tree branches and give it a slight bend back up.

Or send it back.

You can also use a bench vise and a come-along. You have to account for springback though. I have a spreadsheet for different contours somewhere, I’ll see if I can find it.

 

[DJL2]

That level of difference between what the scope can accommodate and where the bore shoots can only be explained by a significant misalignment between the receiver and the barrel -OR- your scope/mount/rings are seriously FUBAR.

If you had a true/good bore sight (sights aligned with bore) the scope is scrap..as the crosshairs don't correspond to true POA. You should be able to diagnose that pretty readily.

If you've rechecked all your mounts and hardware and verified it's all G2G WRT torque and serviceability, your barrel and your receiver aren't mated true/concentric to the same longitudinal axis...and there really isn't a fix for that.

Granted I do my bore sighting at 25-50yds, but it's not terribly difficult to get onto an index card using the old "look through the barrel, put it on the dot, move the sight to match" method. Whether you had a good bore sight or a "f- it, that's good enough" bore sight makes a big difference in diagnosis.

 

[Jack Master]

That level of difference between what the scope can accommodate and where the bore shoots can only be explained by a significant misalignment between the receiver and the barrel -OR- your scope/mount/rings are seriously FUBAR.

If you had a true/good bore sight (sights aligned with bore) the scope is scrap..as the crosshairs don't correspond to true POA. You should be able to diagnose that pretty readily.

If you've rechecked all your mounts and hardware and verified it's all G2G WRT torque and serviceability, your barrel and your receiver aren't mated true/concentric to the same longitudinal axis...and there really isn't a fix for that.

Granted I do my bore sighting at 25-50yds, but it's not terribly difficult to get onto an index card using the old "look through the barrel, put it on the dot, move the sight to match" method. Whether you had a good bore sight or a "f- it, that's good enough" bore sight makes a big difference in diagnosis.

Thanks DJL2. I feel like we had a good bore sight. We bore sighted 2 other rifles that day and both were on 8.5x11 paper at 100 yards first shot. Thanks or the info on the bore axis to receiver. I think its something down this route as well.

@357Max
we didn't use a laser or tool. We took the bolt out of the action. Looked through the rifle action and barrel to aim it at the target (on sand bags). Then, without moving the rifle looked through the scope and adjusted the cross hairs onto the target. This is a traditional bore sight. checked it and re-checked it and it was on point.

Edit: 14mils Fuck......that's not even Musket territory...did they miss stamp a 6 creed or .270 barrel. Is there rifling in it?

Now you're getting my point. The bullet didn't even make it to the target that was 2 feet off the ground. The bullet hit the dirt at 60 yards. (5 feet low)

 

[JMGlasgow]

Is the outer tube of the scope bent?

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

Wow.
That sounds like a nightmare purchase.
I'd ask for a replacement rifle.
That thing should never have been born.

 

[Gtummy]

Check for barrel contact w/ stock

 

[celltech]

 

[Mauser06]

You guys laugh about bending the barrel....but that is literally how most of us center up flintlocks built like the originals.

When I am in the building process, I center the sights on the dovetails and they stay there. Windage is corrected by bending the barrel. Sometimes elevation...I like my front sights to be nice and low.


I put the breech end in the crook of a tree and pull the muzzle the way I want it to move. Lol.

 

[DairyDictator]

Wait a minute... Isn't that the guy that said 6.5 Creed was a shit cartridge and would always be a shit cartridge?

 

[BadAccountant]

Try a single piece base and a different optic.

It is not the barreled action that is the problem 99.9% of times when it comes to a gun shooting like this.

 

[JMGlasgow]

You guys laugh about bending the barrel....but that is literally how most of us center up flintlocks built like the originals.

When I am in the building process, I center the sights on the dovetails and they stay there. Windage is corrected by bending the barrel. Sometimes elevation...I like my front sights to be nice and low.


I put the breech end in the crook of a tree and pull the muzzle the way I want it to move. Lol.

So what happens when that barrel you just straightened heats up? I'd bet it starts to throw shots because it is now under stress.

 

[celltech]

If you go to Savage's website there is an "Art of Craftsmanship" video on the home page. Watch it and see them bending barrels to insure they are perfectly straight. I wonder if Bartlein has to do this...

 

[jbell]

You know, I think this mother fucker is actually serious. I think he believes his own BS

 

[hereinaz]

Curious, when looking through the bore, can you see that it isn't straight? Never had a barrel do that, but if the bore as it left the muzzle is pointing down that far, how much is the deviation going to show up as you align the center crown into the center of the barrel as you look down it?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Your friend buys a shit rifle and tops it with a shit scope and wonders why he can’t get it zero’d. Gee, wonder what it could be?

My advice would be to look him in the eye and say “sucks to suck, nerd” and not waste your time helping a cheap ass with their shit gear.

 

[rtB]

That's a little harsh. I had a $425 Savage 308 that shot sub moa easy with a number of different loads. But the internet made me sell it due to losing face showing up in public with it. It's taken me a long time and many counseling sessions to come to terms with my foolishness.

So I bought a Ruger American predator. Ha.

 

[Mauser06]

So what happens when that barrel you just straightened heats up? I'd bet it starts to throw shots because it is now under stress.

Muzzleloader barrel steel is soft stuff generally. Mostly 12L14. I've got no clue what happens as it heats up....they are flintlocks....I've never gotten a barrel warm enough.



As far as the guy in the video....that's Clay Smith...a very well known flintlock builder. He doesn't just believe his own shit....he knows it.


EDIT-My mistake. My brain saw the title and instantly thought it was Clay Smith-"The Grumpy Gunsmith of Williamsburg" on YouTube who I do follow...I don't know who that guy is....


It's a totally different world than precision rifles.


Yes I'm a freak. I build Longrifles by hand similar to how they did in the 1700s....and I shoot completely modern Precision rifles. Often times side by side at the range lol.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

Muzzleloader barrel steel is soft stuff generally. Mostly 12L14. I've got no clue what happens as it heats up....they are flintlocks....I've never gotten a barrel warm enough.



As far as the guy in the video....that's Clay Smith...a very well known flintlock builder. He doesn't just believe his own shit....he knows it.


It's a totally different world than precision rifles.


Yes I'm a freak. I build Longrifles by hand similar to how they did in the 1700s....and I shoot completely modern Precision rifles. Often times side by side at the range lol.

I had Lyman Great Plains Rifle.
So much fun.

 

[Baron23]

Your friend buys a shit rifle and tops it with a shit scope and wonders why he can’t get it zero’d. Gee, wonder what it could be?

My advice would be to look him in the eye and say “sucks to suck, nerd” and not waste your time helping a cheap ass with their shit gear.

Well fuck, dude....you such swell, why don’t you pull out your check book and buy the guy a rifle and scope you approve of.

still doesn’thelp resolve why this rig is 14 mils low at 100 yds.

 

[Jack Master]

Well fuck, dude....you such swell, why don’t you pull out your check book and buy the guy a rifle and scope you approve of.

still doesn’thelp resolve why this rig is 14” low at 100 yds.

Not 14 inches... 14 MILS low. 50+ inches low. Its not a scope issue.

 

[Baron23]

Not 14 inches... 14 MILS low. 50+ inches low. Its not a scope issue.

Ah, sorry. Thought it was 14 MOA at 100 yds.
In any and all cases I find it hard to attribute such a large error to it not being a $5,500 gun topped with a $3,000 scope.

 

[RFutch]

What’s a berrel?

 

[drshoot]

Could the rail be installed backwards? Was it a 20 MOA or level rail?

 

[ctso030]

Do you have a 20 moa rail on it ? If not you need one

 

[Steel+Killer]

Anything else we should try if its still 14 mils low?

Yes take it back and trade it for a Tikka.........

All jokes aside with the right ammo that doesn't even seem physically possible. Are you sure he wasn't using 6 Creedmoor instead of 6.5 Creedmoor.

 

[ma smith]

All jokes aside with the right ammo that doesn't even seem physically possible.

Or the ammo was maybe breaking up in mid flight or something crazy like that.

 

[gconnoyer]

“Cheep rings and a 2 piece base”

Thats the problem right there.
ATLEAST get a one piece base so that the shitty rings atleast have a chance being straight.
And if its a canted mount, make sure its not flipped the wrong direction.

 

[hlee]

You know? Deer hunters buy cheap rifles and cheap scopes and cheap rings every year, and still manage to get their scopes dialed in (enough) at 100 yards to put a deer on the ground. If we get resolution on this, it will be something that is face-palm stupid...

Oh, and to those laughing at barrel bending, start at 3:05...

 

[Tokay444]

Guys, Jack Master isn't a fucking idiot. A few of you would be well to change your tone a bit here. He's contributed quite a wealth of free info to the community with his wind charts and simplified DOPE math, and even been on Franks podcast. Some respect, please. He's not a noob.

 

[brianf]

Watch how colt puts a AR together for the military.
Operator sitting in front of a arbor press, finds the high spot and gives it a squeeze.