New Savage 10 owner - short throat blues?

[Tee]

Hi All,

My first post here to say hi from the Reno area. I'm finding a limitless supply of info here as I get into long range shooting. Awesome!
I'm experienced with handguns mostly, but have been around rifles my entire life. I am planning on shooting at our long range varmint (steel) matches in the spring and currently shoot USPSA.

I hate to make this first post a sad one, but here goes... I'm looking for advice or recommendations for this little pickle.

I recently bought a Cabelas Exclusive Savage 10T. It's an Accustock with 24" 5R non-threaded barrel in .308 Win for a nice price. I've got a Bushnell 3.5-21 HDMR scope that can't wait to get mounted.

I put about 18 rounds through it before I realized that I could not unchamber a live round. Several hard wacks on the bolt handle and I am rewarded with powder spilling all over as the round separated leaving the bullet jammed in the chamber. The bullet shows marks from the rifling (barely). I had to use a cleaning rod to pound the bullet free. Tried another round with same results. I'm using Federal Gold Medal Match 175grain BTHP. The fired cases all look good with no over-pressure indication.

If any round will work in this gun, I would expect the GMM to work. Now, I have read of numerous similar problems on this forum and others, so decided to call Savage. Two minutes on the phone with Savage and UPS was at my door the next day. I included a very detailed description inside the box, but not sure anyone read it.

Fast forward a month and I got it back today. So far, great service from Savage. The service invoice looks like a hospital bill, so I have no clue what they did unless you know what a line item for "Repair" means? Jeez...

I pop in one of the Federal rounds and guess what? Stuck! Couple wacks later and powder all over the carpet.

I'm a little more educated at this point and have two different brands of ammo to try and they chamber and unchamber correctly.
I also have a Hornady OAL gauge, so give that a try. The Federal rounds are 2.801" OAL, but the chamber measures out to 2.778" using one of the separated Matchkings in the gauge, so it looks like these rounds are jamming .023" into the lands. Less than ideal I think.

Sooo.... I'm annoyed with Savage with not fixing it the first round, but now trying to decide whether I screw with Savage more or just keep it as-is and load shorter ammo. Safety is a primary concern, but also the fact that I bought a substantial amount of the 175grn GMM ammo that I can't shoot. I had hoped to shoot through this batch of factory ammo before starting on loading my own. I'm sure I can sell the ammo if I have to.

I'd sure like some opinions on loading rounds shorter or maybe even some tips on dealing with Savage. Two minutes with the gal on the phone who really didn't want to listen was not sufficient not to mention that my very detailed written description was ignored and virtually no indication of what repair work was performed.

Thanks,
T

 

[MoBoost]

Looks like you need to throat it for those 175s. Most gunsmiths will have the throating reamer and charge nominal fee (the barrel doesn't have to be removed from the action). Or you can do it yourself with $15 rental : 30cal Throating Reamer

 

[jtrax]

Welcome to the hide.

Several options are available:

1. Try again with Savage. Persist in your efforts until you are satisfied.

2. Contact Cabela's and do the same.

3. Take your rifle to a known gunsmith with an established reputation. Be willing to spend the money it may cost for diagnostics and throat reaming (there may be other issues with this rifle that you are unaware of).

 

[tipper]

Just reseat the bullets to fit. try it you may like it

 

[MarinePMI]

Just reseat the bullets to fit. try it you may like it

^^^^^This. If your set up to reload, just run your factory ammo through your seating die with it set for your chamber. Problem solved. Since this is a "Target" model Savage ("10T") I'd wager it is set up specifically for 168gr ammo (just a hunch, no fact behind that statement).

 

[BoilerUP]

Have you tried any other ammo other than the 175 FGMM - 168 FGMM, Hornady Match, __________?

Seems pretty stupid that a company would put out a 308 that couldn't shoot arguably the most popular factory match ammo out there. Did Savage include any notes on the paper they sent stating what kind of ammo they used to test-fire it?

Its also kinda funny as Savage's 223 throats are looooooooooooooooong, like a 75gr HPBT hits the lands at 2.39" long.

 

[hahco]

my savage precision carbine, which is a 2009-2010 vintage, also has a short throat in .308. i handload, though, so its not an issue working around the problem.

my .223 hawg hunter, otoh, has a very long throat like boilerup mentioned. also have a 110 in .300 mag that came with a long throat.

i think the best advice on here is to take it to a gunsmith and have it throated for the FGMM you want to shoot. try some other factory ammo, though. couldnt hurt.

 

[MarinePMI]

my savage precision carbine, which is a 2009-2010 vintage, also has a short throat in .308. i handload, though, so its not an issue working around the problem.

my .223 hawg hunter, otoh, has a very long throat like boilerup mentioned. also have a 110 in .300 mag that came with a long throat.

i think the best advice on here is to take it to a gunsmith and have it throated for the FGMM you want to shoot. try some other factory ammo, though. couldnt hurt.

I wonder if the difference in the .223 chamber is the concern of folks shooting 5.56mm military ammo in these rifles (where a longer throat is expected)...

 

[hahco]

That's a reasonable theory, that they put some "freebore" in there for just such a purpose. I have seen the savages marketed as ".223/5.56" on some websites, although savage doesn't list em that way on its homepage.

 

[MarinePMI]

Yeah, I think it was a few years back that someone said that Savage .223's had the .223 Wilde (sp?) chamber, that was a cross between .223 and 5.56mm (longer throat of the 5.56 but tighter body dimensions of the .223?).

Apologies to the OP for the slight thread highjack...

 

[Tee]

Have you tried any other ammo other than the 175 FGMM - 168 FGMM, Hornady Match, __________?

Seems pretty stupid that a company would put out a 308 that couldn't shoot arguably the most popular factory match ammo out there. Did Savage include any notes on the paper they sent stating what kind of ammo they used to test-fire it?

Its also kinda funny as Savage's 223 throats are looooooooooooooooong, like a 75gr HPBT hits the lands at 2.39" long.

I did try some Hornady Match and Prvi Match, both in 168 and they chamber OK. I did not have any FGMM in 168 to try, but I bet it would work.
The service slip from Savage was worthless, with no indication of what they actually did. No where do they address the issue of removing a live round.
I think the owners manual states that they use FGMM 168 for the .308, but who knows what their smith used.

 

[Tee]

Just reseat the bullets to fit. try it you may like it

I really don't want the headache of dealing with Savage again and losing the gun for another month, so I'm thinking this may be a good solution and could just bump all my 175's down about .040". I like it. That would put me about .020" from the lands. Once I work up my own loads, I can set them to fit the chamber.
I come from the 9mm reloading world and .020" shorter could put me into over-pressure territory, but I'm thinking that should be OK for .308?

I believe the chamber and barrel to be sound other than the short throat, so I'm comfortable with this solution. All of the fired cases look good.

Thanks all for the input.

T

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Short throat = less powder capacity = less velocity

I'd sell it and buy a real rifle. No matter what people say about Remington, one thing that's certain is that if you get a turd and send it in it will come back fixed. They also won't dick you around to get out of fixing it.

 

[Tee]

Short throat = less powder capacity = less velocity

I'd sell it and buy a real rifle. No matter what people say about Remington, one thing that's certain is that if you get a turd and send it in it will come back fixed. They also won't dick you around to get out of fixing it.

Hah! I'm tempted to go with a 700. I'm not really partial to either brand at this point.

 

[tipper]

I have many of the Savage in 308 they all have the so-called short throat, I see no problem with it, have no mag feed problems if loaded to the lands or off the lands. This gives some wear room for the throat, to not be overly long.

 

[tomcatfan]

Short throat = less powder capacity = less velocity

I'd sell it and buy a real rifle. No matter what people say about Remington, one thing that's certain is that if you get a turd and send it in it will come back fixed. They also won't dick you around to get out of fixing it.

I could see this as being a true statement if you are shooting compresomething like a 223, but if your doing that in a 308 your running really HOT. I've yet to compress a 308 load, but I've gotten quite a bit of flattened primers.

But to the OP, one thing to consider is after you shoot this thing for a while, the throat will open up. I chase the throats in a couple of my bolt guns. As the rounds add up, it definitely moves back.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I could see this as being a true statement if you are shooting compresomething like a 223, but if your doing that in a 308 your running really HOT. I've yet to compress a 308 load, but I've gotten quite a bit of flattened primers.

Any time you have to seat the bullet deeper you are reducing capacity. Even at 2.80 you could have more powder let alone if you could load longer and fill a AICS mag.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Hah! I'm tempted to go with a 700. I'm not really partial to either brand at this point.

I wouldn't suggest getting partial to one, being partial is how fanboyism starts. Use what works, that's why I have a variety of stuff and I've got no problem saying what's wrong with something even if it's something I own.

 

[MoBoost]

Short throat = less powder capacity = less velocity

Short throat = less CASE capacity = MORE velocity with SAME powder charge.

P.S. Funny, how you can still see someone else quoting the know-it-all already on ignore list

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Short throat = less CASE capacity = MORE velocity with SAME powder charge.

P.S. Funny, how you can still see someone else quoting the know-it-all already on ignore list

Well no shit, but with a longer throat you can get MORE velocity with MORE powder. You really must be retarded. So much for actually ignoring somebody on your ignore list. But I bet you felt like a total badass when you put me on it lol.

 

[6brshooter]

All my 308 with 175 or 155s are loaded to max and flatten primers. I use varget and h4895, when loaded close to gun max, not book, the loaded rds sound like a salt shaker
About the only way to fill a 308 case and compress powder is to run way to slow of powder or shoot a 208 amax.

 

[JMGlasgow]

All my 308 with 175 or 155s are loaded to max and flatten primers. I use varget and h4895, when loaded close to gun max, not book, the loaded rds sound like a salt shaker
About the only way to fill a 308 case and compress powder is to run way to slow of powder or shoot a 208 amax.

So 4064 is too slow for a 308?

 

[bodywerks]

Hi All,

My first post here to say hi from the Reno area. I'm finding a limitless supply of info here as I get into long range shooting. Awesome!
I'm experienced with handguns mostly, but have been around rifles my entire life. I am planning on shooting at our long range varmint (steel) matches in the spring and currently shoot USPSA.

I hate to make this first post a sad one, but here goes... I'm looking for advice or recommendations for this little pickle.

I recently bought a Cabelas Exclusive Savage 10T. It's an Accustock with 24" 5R non-threaded barrel in .308 Win for a nice price. I've got a Bushnell 3.5-21 HDMR scope that can't wait to get mounted.

I put about 18 rounds through it before I realized that I could not unchamber a live round. Several hard wacks on the bolt handle and I am rewarded with powder spilling all over as the round separated leaving the bullet jammed in the chamber. The bullet shows marks from the rifling (barely). I had to use a cleaning rod to pound the bullet free. Tried another round with same results. I'm using Federal Gold Medal Match 175grain BTHP. The fired cases all look good with no over-pressure indication.

If any round will work in this gun, I would expect the GMM to work. Now, I have read of numerous similar problems on this forum and others, so decided to call Savage. Two minutes on the phone with Savage and UPS was at my door the next day. I included a very detailed description inside the box, but not sure anyone read it.

Fast forward a month and I got it back today. So far, great service from Savage. The service invoice looks like a hospital bill, so I have no clue what they did unless you know what a line item for "Repair" means? Jeez...

I pop in one of the Federal rounds and guess what? Stuck! Couple wacks later and powder all over the carpet.

I'm a little more educated at this point and have two different brands of ammo to try and they chamber and unchamber correctly.
I also have a Hornady OAL gauge, so give that a try. The Federal rounds are 2.801" OAL, but the chamber measures out to 2.778" using one of the separated Matchkings in the gauge, so it looks like these rounds are jamming .023" into the lands. Less than ideal I think.

Sooo.... I'm annoyed with Savage with not fixing it the first round, but now trying to decide whether I screw with Savage more or just keep it as-is and load shorter ammo. Safety is a primary concern, but also the fact that I bought a substantial amount of the 175grn GMM ammo that I can't shoot. I had hoped to shoot through this batch of factory ammo before starting on loading my own. I'm sure I can sell the ammo if I have to.

I'd sure like some opinions on loading rounds shorter or maybe even some tips on dealing with Savage. Two minutes with the gal on the phone who really didn't want to listen was not sufficient not to mention that my very detailed written description was ignored and virtually no indication of what repair work was performed.

Thanks,
T

You know, I hear a lot of people complaining about their savages about things that are either insignificant or simple fixes, but your situation is pure BS! No way you should not expect a factory rifle too chamber factory match ammo, especially a round as popular as fgmm 175!
What's the oal of their factory rounds?
I can tell you that all three of my 308 savages that I have owned easily chambered my reloads at 2.810 with 175smks. That was actually about .010-015 jump, too.
If the fgmm are that long or shorter then they effed up your chamber.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[MarinePMI]

I think the owners manual states that they use FGMM 168 for the .308, but who knows what their smith used.

No way you should not expect a factory rifle too chamber factory match ammo, especially a round as popular as fgmm 175!
....

If the fgmm are that long or shorter then they effed up your chamber.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

No, if they said that the rifle was set up for 168gr FGMM, then they didn't screw up the chamber; the rifle has been built to spec, and is as it should be.

 

[MarinePMI]

I wouldn't suggest getting partial to one, being partial is how fanboyism starts. Use what works, that's why I have a variety of stuff and I've got no problem saying what's wrong with something even if it's something I own.

Really? You say this after posting the response below?

I'd sell it and buy a real rifle. No matter what people say about Remington, one thing that's certain is that if you get a turd and send it in it will come back fixed. They also won't dick you around to get out of fixing it.

Just trying to figure out which you are; impartial or one of the fanboyism fellas...I think you speak out of both sides of your mouth...

 

[6brshooter]

Guess i never messed with 4064. Varget,re15,&h4895 seem to be most popular and most used these days. My apologies to u and 4064.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

You're rifle doesn't have a problem. It is set up to shoot 168s or 155s REALLY well.

If youre set on the 175s, get a gunsmith and to lengthen the throat by .040 or so.


Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Really? You say this after posting the response below?



Just trying to figure out which you are; impartial or one of the fanboyism fellas...I think you speak out of both sides of your mouth...

I'm sorry I've posted in two threads saying what pieces of crap your favorite brand is. No I am not partial to either, I own both, and I recognize the less of two evils. I also have Ford and Chevy trucks so I'm not a biased kinda guy.

I've got a sweet older 110FP 308 that's going to be going up for sale if you want to add another turd to your stable. No short throat but it feeds like shit.

 

[MarinePMI]

I'm sorry I've posted in two threads saying what pieces of crap your favorite brand is. No I am not partial to either, I own both, and I recognize the less of two evils. I also have Ford and Chevy trucks so I'm not a biased kinda guy.

I've got a sweet older 110FP 308 that's going to be going up for sale if you want to add another turd to your stable. No short throat but it feeds like shit.

LOL! Keeping it classy I see...sorry you're feeling butthurt for getting called out. Nah, not really.

 

[hahco]

T: FWIW, my "short throat" 10PC shoots the 168 sierra match kings like a champ. Give the 168 FGMM ammo a try and see what you think.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

LOL! Keeping it classy I see...sorry you're feeling butthurt for getting called out. Nah, not really.

Sorry I hurt your feelings.

 

[tomcatfan]

Any time you have to seat the bullet deeper you are reducing capacity. Even at 2.80 you could have more powder let alone if you could load longer and fill a AICS mag.

The point I'm making is that reduced capacity only negatively effects performance if you are filling the case. As many people have already said, this typically does not happen in the 308 unless your using 4064 (as noted) or a slow burning powder. I have flattened primers on my 308 using varget and a 175smk and it was no where near full capacity. So in my case with Varget and a 175smk, reduced capacity would in no way degrade my performance. The tight throat would actually increase it due to less bullet jump.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I've filled the case on nearly every 308 I've loaded for and almost exclusively use Varget and Lapua brass. The further the bullet is seated, the less powder capacity I have.

 

[rommel500]

I have a Savage model 10 precision carbine in .308 win and it has a really short throat. 168smk's hit the lands at right around 2.800 coal. 175smk's are right around 2.780 coal. Handloads with 175smk's, 44.5grs Varget and Lapua brass still produce 2610fps and that is with a 20 inch barrel. I never shot factory loads through this rifle so I wouldn't know of any issues with factory ammo.

 

[You-Two]

You're rifle doesn't have a problem. It is set up to shoot 168s or 155s REALLY well.

If youre set on the 175s, get a gunsmith and to lengthen the throat by .040 or so.

Probably the best option if you want/need to shoot the factory 175s. I would classify need as meaning you plan on shooting a lot from 800-1000 yds. Inside that, just stick with the 168s or 155s if they shoot well. Besides, if you're in Northern Nevada the density altitude will be pretty high, so the 168s might actually work ok to long-range (verify with a ballistics program).

I had my .260 LRP barrel throated a little longer by a local smith and it wasn't expensive, maybe $40-50. Just gave him a case with the bullet seated where I wanted it. My Dad has a Savage 5R 24" barrel and I want to say the 175s (Nosler 175CC) are about 2.780" COAL when touching the lands. It is a short chamber.

 

[346ci]

One thing I have noticed since switching from remy to Savage is that Savages have tighter tolerances. While my remys would shoot any factory loads, the Savage is more picky. That is why you see more people leaning towards Savage as they build a better and more accurate rifle IMO. My 10PC will run the factory FGMM 168s and 175s fine but seems to prefer the 168s for accuracy.

If I have skipped over it, be sure your chamber is squeaky clean.

 

[tipper]

One thing I have noticed since switching from remy to Savage is that Savages have tighter tolerances. While my remys would shoot any factory loads, the Savage is more picky. That is why you see more people leaning towards Savage as they build a better and more accurate rifle IMO. My 10PC will run the factory FGMM 168s and 175s fine but seems to prefer the 168s for accuracy.

If I have skipped over it, be sure your chamber is squeaky clean.

This is the Truth

 

[Dick D]

Just take your rifle over to Randy Dirks, one of the better gunsmiths in the Reno/Sparks area along with a couple of the factory 175 gr cartridges and have him extend the throat in the barrel to take the longer cartridges. Fairly simple thing to do and problem will be solved. He should have a 1.5 degree throating reamer on hand. If not have him call me and I will loan him mine.
Dick Davis

 

[alsation]

This is the Truth

Why the super emphasis on a clean chamber? Am I missing something? Genuine question.

 

[djdilliodon]

Before I'd sink money into getting the throat reamed (yea that sounds dirty) I'd try the 168's first and see how they shoot.

 

[zhangla]

I got exact same issue with my Savage 10T from Cabelas. Both FGMM and BlackHills are too long, only Norma 168gr would fit. I had to hand load really short rounds. I ended up having a gunsmith reaming the chamber for me, because I am sick of not able to fire commercial ammo.

The interesting thing is, whatever is jamming the bullet is not the lands, because if you do unchamber the live rounds that are stuck, you notice the tip of the bullet has only 1 side showing marks, not the rifling teeth marks (should be 5-6) you would expect. I think it is the chamber itself not up to spec.

 

[Brux]

Send the rifle back with a factory FGMM 175 and ask them if they can chamber it.They won't be able to and probably fix it.If you have a gunsmith mess with it ,it will void the warranty or sell the 175's and buy 168's.

 

[Dieselscout]

I purchased a 10-T from Cabela's back in March and read this thread, which had me a bit concerned. I've not been able to find Federal GMM, but have been able to find some Nosler Custom Competition both in the 168 and 175 flavors. The gun seems to handle the 168's great and I was looking forward to trying the 175, but after reading this I was a bit worried. I test loaded some today on the bench and they chambered and ejected just find. Nothing took anymore effort then the 168's or the Hornady I had been shooting. I measured about 5 of the Noslers and got 2.801"-2.803" OAL and measured them with a Hornady Comparator and got a measurement of 2.223". I just wanted to add my experience, as I am very happy with the gun.

 

[DanSavage]

I have a Savage 10fp that has a short throat, I had great results with Win. case, 44 Varget and 175 smk at 2.780, it gives 2650 fps w/ 24" barrel. Mine also thrived on 168FGMM, it was close to the lands but not touching.

 

[Pointman308]

I have a Savage HS Precision and it shoots five rounds of 175smk seated .018 off the lands into itsy bitsy little bug holes. My rounds end up being about 2.830 coal. It also sends them 2650fps with 42grains of Varget. I love Idaho elevation.

 

[sandwarrior]

Guess i never messed with 4064. Varget,re15,&h4895 seem to be most popular and most used these days. My apologies to u and 4064.

4064 is just a little faster than Varget. You should not be getting a full case with a max load in it. FWIW, the original 4064 (DuPont IMR) was coated 4895 (IMR duplication of H4895) It worked well, as it does pretty much what Varget does. At max pressure it is consistent. However, like most of the older IMR powders, it meters like crap. Varget meters a lot better. For roughly the same price, Varget is the ultimate powder, IMO, for .308. That includes RE-15.

If you haven't already done it, the best long term solution is have it throated, locally there in Reno, for the longer bullets.

 

[wmn2]

I too have the 10T that I bought a few weeks ago. I've been on six days a week at work so I have not been able to shoot it yet. I picked up some SSA 175
HPBT as well as FGMM 168. I tried today after reading this to chamber each round. The 175 did feel a little bit tighter when I closed the bolt, but had no markings on the bullet after extraction, so I think I am right against the lands. Te OAL of the 175 is 2.778. I am planning on reloading so once I shoot the factory ammo I can mess around with the OAL to make it best for my rifle. My biggest worry, being somewhat new to reloading, is with the 178 AMAX I want to reload, is if I have to decrease OAL, am I going to get a compressed load. Anyone have any experience with this?

 

[wmn2]

By the way, I will be starting loading with IMR 4064 if tht makes a difference (can't find varget anywhere)

 

[sandwarrior]

By the way, I will be starting loading with IMR 4064 if tht makes a difference (can't find varget anywhere)

Can you find RE-17? It works pretty good with the heavier .308 Bullets. RE-15 works with just about any weight. A lot more temp sensitive than Varget.

 

[wmn2]

New Savage 10 owner - short throat blues?

Can you find RE-17? It works pretty good with the heavier .308 Bullets. RE-15 works with just about any weight. A lot more temp sensitive than Varget.

No, all I have been able to find so far is IMR powder. I have 4064 for my .308 and 4895 for my .22-250. I got a lead a few days ago of a place nearby that may have target or others besides IMR. I should have the funds next weekend to be able to pick some up.