New Shooter - 6.5 Creedmoor Load Development

[Brandon2002]

I'm a new shooter and have been to the range three times so far.


Rifle Setup:

• Howa 1500 in 6.5 Creedmoor
• KRG Bravo chassis

First Range Trip:​

• Fired 60 rounds of factory ammo, averaging about 1 MOA.
• Later discovered that my muzzle brake was loose, so not sure how much that affected accuracy.

Second Range Trip (First Time Reloading):​

• Loaded 40 rounds: 41.5gr H4350, 140gr Berger Hybrid, Lapua small primer brass, CCI 450 primers. My goal was to get to the 100-round mark.
• Also loaded 60 rounds in .2gr increments from 40.0 to 42.2gr (5 shots each) to look for velocity nodes.
• Found little definitive info on nodes, but my SDs were low (5-9), and ES was under 25.
• Had multiple groups between .4 and .6 MOA.
• All rounds were loaded to about 2.8” COAL, though there was some variation due to bullet inconsistencies.
• Then, I started questioning whether speed nodes are just "fud lore."

Third Range Trip:​

• Loaded everything at 41.6gr since that produced my best group previously.
• Went to a 700-yard range to focus on reading wind, testing 4DOF accuracy, and evaluating the rifle’s performance at longer distances.

My Questions:​

• My cases are now prepped, annealed, sized, and cleaned. Should I start testing seating depth?
• Should I redo my ladder test now that the rifle has 260 rounds through it and the brass is twice-fired?
• Or should I just go out and shoot more?

I'm mainly shooting for fun but plan to start hunting and maybe try a PRS match or two. Looking for advice from experienced long-range shooters on how to best use my components and improve.


Thanks!

 

[BobinNC]

If your happy with your load, then move on, hunt and compete. Groups around .5 MOA and low SD's are certainly good enough for your stated purpose, so why waste more component's to chase another .10" or .20" assuming you could get those groups that much better. Your not shooting benchrest comps are you, where min group size is the thing?? In hunting and PRS consistency at range is a more valuable than small accuracy improvements at 100 yds.

If your not happy with your load, for whatever reason, then I would explore more fully:

Try some 10 shot groups with your 2 or 3 "best loads" and see what that yields you.
Explore why your using 2.80" COAL, and I hope it's not because some book told you so.
If your using a magazine fed rifle rifle the proper place to start is at max MAG length less about 0.15 to 0.20", to allow for ragged uneven bullet tips, as you've found, IMHO. If your if chamber throat allows it of course .

Other than that your technique look sound. It it was me I'd just rock on, but you have to do you.
Good Luck

 

[Seymour Fish]

I'm a new shooter and have been to the range three times so far.


Rifle Setup:

• Howa 1500 in 6.5 Creedmoor
• KRG Bravo chassis

First Range Trip:​

• Fired 60 rounds of factory ammo, averaging about 1 MOA.
• Later discovered that my muzzle brake was loose, so not sure how much that affected accuracy.

Second Range Trip (First Time Reloading):​

• Loaded 40 rounds: 41.5gr H4350, 140gr Berger Hybrid, Lapua small primer brass, CCI 450 primers. My goal was to get to the 100-round mark.
• Also loaded 60 rounds in .2gr increments from 40.0 to 42.2gr (5 shots each) to look for velocity nodes.
• Found little definitive info on nodes, but my SDs were low (5-9), and ES was under 25.
• Had multiple groups between .4 and .6 MOA.
• All rounds were loaded to about 2.8” COAL, though there was some variation due to bullet inconsistencies.
• Then, I started questioning whether speed nodes are just "fud lore."

Third Range Trip:​

• Loaded everything at 41.6gr since that produced my best group previously.
• Went to a 700-yard range to focus on reading wind, testing 4DOF accuracy, and evaluating the rifle’s performance at longer distances.

My Questions:​

• My cases are now prepped, annealed, sized, and cleaned. Should I start testing seating depth?
• Should I redo my ladder test now that the rifle has 260 rounds through it and the brass is twice-fired?
• Or should I just go out and shoot more?

I'm mainly shooting for fun but plan to start hunting and maybe try a PRS match or two. Looking for advice from experienced long-range shooters on how to best use my components and improve.


Thanks!

Do a one shot per increment powder ladder around your “best load”. Then do seating depth. Forget the chrono.

 

[RegionRat]

Then, I started questioning whether speed nodes are just "fud lore."

Yes, they are internet lore.

Those "speed nodes" and 10-shot Scott Satterlee test were taken way out of context and led people astray with notions of being able to run load development by simply blasting 10 shots over a chronograph.

It sold a lot of chronographs and grew into a headline cult quickly, but then Scott's retraction was in fine print on page 69 by comparison.

When good rifles include good heavy section barrels, actions, stocks, etc., by dumb luck you can use just about any charge weight and shoot pretty well.

Folks tended to "want to believe" in the method, and it got lots of internet attention but real ballistics experts were quietly telling folks it wasn't so and were ignored for a long time. The reality lesson cost many folks to waste their time. Oh well......

Velocity "flat spots" evaporate when enough samples are shot. That is not to say velocity and charge doesn't matter, but those chrono-only "short cut" methods were misleading.

When folks claim it worked for them, it was due to the statistics of their luck and that their guns were good and insensitive.

My cases are now prepped, annealed, sized, and cleaned. Should I start testing seating depth?

It is likely your bbl has settled by now. It is best to learn internal ballistics early in your shooting life, so no reason you shouldn't balance some of your time exploring charge weight and seating depths, however....

As a rookie, take your medium load and try to keep it steady. Spend some time testing the group at short and medium range and see how your dope runs.
Take good notes on loading and also on shooting weather conditions and spend some part of your time trying to keep this one load recipe under control on many outings and in different weather.

What you are going to find, is you are still learning how loading, cleaning, and weather play with your dope.

When you are ready, try and see if you are sensitive enough in that light, to even find the delta between the case volume of your cycled brass versus virgin brass. Give yourself a chance to learn the ropes.

Should I redo my ladder test now that the rifle has 260 rounds through it and the brass is twice-fired?

Have some fun with it now and then, but don't take it too seriously. You will spend about 5k to 10k shots learning to read wind and shoot well enough to tell the difference in tuning.

Or should I just go out and shoot more?

Yes.
Give yourself a chance to learn the ropes. Not every batch of components, not every barrel, will make you look good.

Rookies who work in a vacuum on their own, tend to live in a Dunning Kruger Curve. The danger is they get frustrated the first time they stumble and then give up. Try to remember that on average humans are not prodigies and the statistics may grant you a good rifle on the first try, but don't freak out if you stumble.

Spend some of your energy finding a club or visiting a competition of the type that interests you. A good mentor will be able to ramp you up the learning curve much faster than YouTube or the internet will.

Expect to spend that first barrel and many outings learning how cleaning, weather changes, component batch changes, etc., affect your dope. Learn to use a standard target at say 300 and 600 yards, to evaluate yourself honestly. Take good notes on your loading but also on the shooting and weather.

Welcome to the affliction. Never give up, and Good Luck!!!

 

[ggmanning]

I choose my starting charge roughly 2.5-3gr below my expected finish. In your case say 39.5 grains. I use that to choose my best seat depth with .01, .05, .10, .15" off the lands all at that charge. (Do some reading here on how to accurately measure to lands and measure seat depth.... Hornady OAL tool with modified cases, Hornady bullet comparator set, though there are many good brands of these types of tools.....and some calipers). Usually I find it in that range. If not or using something like VLD's I try other seat depths......general I know but too much to explain past the basic. Don't expect super tight groups to choose because powder charge is not optimized....though you may indeed get that. It will be obvious compared to other seat depths what the bullet likes. In my experience seat depth the bullet likes is pretty constant thoughout the charge ladder. Once I find a seat depth that the bullet likes then I go up in charge increments by .3 grains. This is when you find your accuracy node(s), where you get pressure signs and map SD/ES's to choose the node you want. You can tweak seat depth a thou or two in each direction now if needed but I rarely find that need. Finally verify the load you found at distance. This method has worked for me with a bunch of barrels and load work ups to get to nice tiny groups at 100yds and perform well from 1000 to mile depending on the caliber. You will also find many other ways folks will swear to other methods...experiment, find what works for you. It's all fun and a learning process that I will still tweak even after doing it for 30 years. Keep an open mind on forum information. Much is bullshit, much is good. You will wade through it through your own experience. This is all should you want to start down the rabbit hole of geeking out over making the gun shoot the best it can. As said above though not a thing wrong with a load you are happy with and shoot then swing back to this kind of stuff if you choose later.

 

[Brandon2002]

If your happy with your load, then move on, hunt and compete. Groups around .5 MOA and low SD's are certainly good enough for your stated purpose, so why waste more component's to chase another .10" or .20" assuming you could get those groups that much better. Your not shooting benchrest comps are you, where min group size is the thing?? In hunting and PRS consistency at range is a more valuable than small accuracy improvements at 100 yds.

If your not happy with your load, for whatever reason, then I would explore more fully:

Try some 10 shot groups with your 2 or 3 "best loads" and see what that yields you.
Explore why your using 2.80" COAL, and I hope it's not because some book told you so.
If your using a magazine fed rifle rifle the proper place to start is at max MAG length less about 0.15 to 0.20", to allow for ragged uneven bullet tips, as you've found, IMHO. If your if chamber throat allows it of course .

Other than that your technique look sound. It it was me I'd just rock on, but you have to do you.
Good Luck

I think I should be satisfied with the setup, it’s a factory-barreled action, likely already near its maximum potential. That said, I still need to explore seating depth. The bullet "recipe" I use was developed by scraping data for mentions, sentiment, and user feedback. A 2.8" COAL had strong support and positive results. While not a scientific approach, it seemed like a solid starting point for load development.


This weekend is supposed to be windy, so it might be a good time to test seating depth. My maximum COAL will be limited by my magazine. Since I’m using Berger Hybrids, I’ve been under the impression that jump isn’t a major factor and often prefer a .1"+ jump. Berger recommends starting at .015" off the lands, which would put me close to my magazine's max COAL. To ensure reliable feeding, following your suggestion, I’d be around .03" off the lands.


Would it make sense to test 5-shot groups in .0005" increments from .2855" to .278"? I’ll be using OAL measurements from a well-formed bullet. Does this approach seem reasonable?

 

[RegionRat]

Since I’m using Berger Hybrids, I’ve been under the impression that jump isn’t a major factor and often prefer a .1"+ jump. Berger recommends starting at .015" off the lands, which would put me close to my magazine's max COAL. To ensure reliable feeding, following your suggestion, I’d be around .03" off the lands.


Would it make sense to test 5-shot groups in .0005" increments from .2855" to .278"? I’ll be using OAL measurements from a well-formed bullet. Does this approach seem reasonable?

The whole concept of a hybrid, is the combination of a forgiving ogive radius near the bearing diameter, combined with the aerodynamic improvement for the nose, resulting in a jump tolerant yet efficient design.

The 0.0005" increment is too fine for a seating depth search and would cause you to waste many shots. You will be able to add a zero to that dimension and you would still likely find that any jump in the 0.015" to 0.020" starting point will be just as good as the next.

TLDR: you are shooting a Howa in a KRG chassis, not a F-Open rifle. Don't confuse the goals of a field gun for the same ones as a Bench Rest rig. As a rookie, go run all the tests you like, but keep in mind that a gun that shoots 0.6 MOA is not the same as one that shoots under 0.3 MOA. That means you would be shooting 15 to 30 samples per change, on different days, to convince yourself a change was real.

The main difference in seating philosophy is that a gun used from the magazine should be able to eject a round without risk, as compared to a jam load which is focused on pure performance and consequences be damned.

First priority is fit the mag and reliable feed without a cartridge so weak that it doesn't survive the feed and extract cycle, followed by any chance it performs better at a different depth. Getting your neck prep and seating force right so that your ammo is sturdy is the first priority.

Nothing wrong with a depth experiment as a rookie, so long as you don't fall into the trap of low sample testing with a gun that cannot shoot the difference.

Chasing jam in some contexts is the accepted cost of performance. In your context, we measure to the lands to study the chamber and have a starting reference for seating depth, but as a rookie you then focus priority on the best brass, bullet, primer, powder, and charge.

If you have the time and energy for seating depth searches, then why not? Just don't get frustrated with low sample testing confusion.

As a rookie, there are many higher priority concepts to master and unless you plan on shooting Bench Rest or F-Class competition, the goals of your depth tuning are set one notch lower and those resources are spent trying to master your overall dope from batch to batch and as the barrel wears, your shooting technique, and wind calls.

If you were going to shoot from bag rests and the gun was 0.25 MOA capable, then seating depth would be important. When a gun doesn't shoot from bag rests, doesn't get sighters every time it changes distance, needs to shoot in many different directions in the same day, then the priority is a little different focus.

Developing a seating depth to get a 0.75 MOA field gun to get down to 0.5 MOA, takes lots of resources and distracts you from the more important goals of maintaining your DOPE from session to session and learning to shoot wind. YMMV