New Year, New Rules, maybe ...

[W54/XM-388]

Sell it on the site. Or make the preferred ammo part of the entry fee that is provided on site. In either case, using supplied ammo is required.

Yes, I realize, there will be some brands not available and complaints will occur, but with today's rounds, probably not hard within two or three brands to find one that will shoot well in a decent rifle.

It would be a hugely unpopular idea, would make a mess of your matches and lead to a huge amount of complaints.

Are you going to give everyone at the match several free boxes of ammo and a couple hours with a chronograph to see what shoots best in their rifle and then work out all their ballistic tables?

How many different calibers and weights for each caliber and bullet types are you going to stock?
Are you going to have a wide selection of top of the line match ammunition or just whatever crap you got a good deal / got sponsored?

How are your prices going to compare to what somebody can buy them for themselves?

If you want to play FUDD rules, go have fun at a CMP match

I seriously doubt most folks will be happy to have to only have a choice of some crap sponsored ammo because some MD wants to feel super in control of everything and is paranoid as fuck.

 

[308pirate]

If you want to play FUDD rules, go have fun at a CMP match

The CMP doesn't require anyone to use issued or factory ammo. And they're smarter than to use any kind of pricing to separate different equipment.

So there's that................

And yea being forced to use factory ammo is a non-starter. If factory ammo is so good now, then reloads can't be that much of an advantage.

 

[308pirate]

I actually proposed this in IHMSA when participation was falling off and members/clubs were struggling to appeal to new shooters. Using the same course set up but with different, larger targets, let the newer shooters shoot the closer ranges/targets, the more experienced shooters shoot the furthest targets and preferably half scale. (really simplified but you get the idea.). Have the newer shooters shoot in the morning with the experienced hands coaching them (Coaching during course of fire is legal in IHMSA) Then let the old hands have at it on a more difficult course of fire during the afternoon. Everyone I talked to said, NO, we don't want to change a thing. So they didn't. In the past few years, whole clubs have dropped the sport.

While this has fell on totally death ears. Just because it has never been done, why not do it?

Silhouette shooting is dying for the same reason NRA rifle sports are nearly dead: it's boring.

Has nothing to do with the sport's difficulty.

If a sport doesn't have competitive equity, meaning everyone has to solve the same shooting problems and rules are applied fairly, then it's not a sport. Just a fun shoot.

 

[Emerson0311]

Silhouette shooting is dying for the same reason NRA rifle sports are nearly dead: it's boring.

Has nothing to do with the sport's difficulty.

If a sport doesn't have competitive equity, meaning everyone has to solve the same shooting problems and rules are applied fairly, then it's not a sport. Just a fun shoot.

Well, there are a lot of levels of sport before the Olympics. Without those lower levels, there are very few at the higher level. It doesn’t matter I guess. When the # of contestants drops enough the sports will become history.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

It would be a hugely unpopular idea, would make a mess of your matches and lead to a huge amount of complaints.

Are you going to give everyone at the match several free boxes of ammo and a couple hours with a chronograph to see what shoots best in their rifle and then work out all their ballistic tables?

How many different calibers and weights for each caliber and bullet types are you going to stock?
Are you going to have a wide selection of top of the line match ammunition or just whatever crap you got a good deal / got sponsored?

How are your prices going to compare to what somebody can buy them for themselves?

Berger makes match ammo, Hornady makes match ammo, probably Sierra. Stock a couple bullet weights for 6CM, 6.5 CM and 308. That means 12 different types of standard rounds. (by Berger and Hornady) Since the factory rounds are loaded, shooters have plenty of time to test to see what works and what does not.

Ammo is not given free, it is purchased on site or the the entry fee is adjusted to include ammo.

It goes with Franks suggestion. I own rifles and handguns that have never had a factory loaded round down them so preaching to me about factory rounds is kind of a waste of your electrons. But it was thrown out as an idea and I am trying to expound on how it might be implemented while keeping cheating to a minimum.

 

[308pirate]

Well, there are a lot of levels of sport before the Olympics. Without those lower levels, there are very few at the higher level. It doesn’t matter I guess. When the # of contestants drops enough the sports will become history.

Can I ask which shooting sport have you ever come across where the shooting problem is made easier or harder according to skill level?

Almost every single shooting sport separates shooters into different classifications based either on match results or on the scores of classifier exercises. That way those who need their ego soothed can see where they finish amongst shooters in the same class. But they all shoot the same course of fire.

Are these facts not known by the PRS community? Is that why it is always coming up with dumb ideas like a production division based on msrp?

 

[Emerson0311]

Can I ask which shooting sport have you ever come across where the shooting problem is made easier or harder according to skill level?

Almost every single shooting sport separates shooters into different classifications based either on match results or on the scores of classifier exercises. That way those who need their ego soothed can see where they finish amongst shooters in the same class. But they all shoot the same course of fire.

Are these facts not known by the PRS community? Is that why it is always coming up with dumb ideas like a production division based on msrp?

Classing shooters works as long as the COF is one that allows the mid pack performers to actually achieve somewhere around 50% of points. The skill required to move from 75% to 90% should be a much larger jump that the skill required to climb from 50% to 65%. As far as an MSRP limitation, I said zero about that. I don’t give a fuck about it. If Savages could win, some cheap great shooter would use it.

 

[308pirate]

Classing shooters works as long as the COF is one that allows the mid pack performers to actually achieve somewhere around 50% of points. The skill required to move from 75% to 90% should be a much larger jump that the skill required to climb from 50% to 65%.

I can't disagree too much with that. The question is, can PRS stages be designed to do that? I have no idea.

 

[Rexwagon]

I think there is a lot going on here in this thread. 1 day local matches. Regional and club matches are the pipeline. They are the area for new shooters to learn and grow. If they are too hard for new shooters, that’s on the MD. They can set the COF up better, to suit everyone. I mentor new shooters every single year, as do many other competitors. But the caveat is, if you do not have some difficult matches, they can become stagnant and local shooters will plateau. If you put on a giant meatball match every month, not sure how that’s more beneficial.

Locally we have a pro am and I do believe there are lots of other areas of the country doing the same thing. Look at Texas and their loner rifle program or twisted barrel in Arkansas, just to name a few.

What I see hold people back from competing are 3 things.

1. Ego - many shooters can not handle being new and failing or getting stomped more than once. Many people are all talk. Online keyboard warriors. Most are not willing to put themselves in uncomfortable situations to compete. Some will claim people at the top are cheating. Or the rules are bad. But really they haven’t put the time in to train or find someone to help them with their mistakes.

2. Cost of ammo and components- many potential shooters state, they can not afford to shoot 100 rounds at matches more than a few times a year. Many of these people handload as well. But as we all know the last few years have been a scramble on good components. Not to mention travel costs, etc.

3. Availability of places to shoot. Many places in the country do not have access to shoot the way they think they need to practice, in order to compete. When really they can accomplish a ton of practice in 100 yards.

It has absolutely nothing to do with their rifles. That’s all just BS talk to make excuses, so they don’t have their ego bruised. Obviously there is exceptions to this statement. Speaking in absolutes gets people no where.

The two main things that I see hold back new shooters from hitting more targets and being competitive is fundamentals and data. Bad data is a constant that I see with new shooters arriving at matches. What you don’t know you don’t know.


A lot of members here live in a bubble and only see what is happening 100 miles of their front door.

At my matches next season I am willing to institute a trophy class for factory ammo/ factory gun folks. I also do see the factory PRS class as a fake class. I think of rifles like savage and Bergara for factory. But in a 2 day match setting, this rule makes zero difference to me.

 

[JBoomhauer]

Like was said above, other sports have different tiers of competitors.

With PRS you can have a new guy that compares his score with the top guy in the country and gets discouraged.

He really needs to focus on himself instead of the placement.

 

[308pirate]

3. Availability of places to shoot. Many places in the country do not have access to shoot the way they think they need to practice, in order to compete. When really they can accomplish a ton of practice in 100 yards.

A lot of new shooters do not understand that dry fire + 100 yard live fire can teach you almost everything you need except how to deal with the wind (a rimfire trainer can fix that) and nailing down your dope (gotta shoot at distance for that).

 

[W54/XM-388]

Berger makes match ammo, Hornady makes match ammo, probably Sierra. Stock a couple bullet weights for 6CM, 6.5 CM and 308. That means 12 different types of standard rounds. (by Berger and Hornady) Since the factory rounds are loaded, shooters have plenty of time to test to see what works and what does not.

Ammo is not given free, it is purchased on site or the the entry fee is adjusted to include ammo.

It goes with Franks suggestion. I own rifles and handguns that have never had a factory loaded round down them so preaching to me about factory rounds is kind of a waste of your electrons. But it was thrown out as an idea and I am trying to expound on how it might be implemented while keeping cheating to a minimum.

So to shoot the match, I'd need to find out what rounds they are going to be selling there, then spend a bunch of extra time and money figuring out which one works somewhat as good as the other higher end factory rounds I currently use, (and am going to stick with because I know they work excellent) and then are they going to guarantee that specific one is available?

Are they going to be price gouging for it?
Are they going to be willing to sell it for the lowest price I could have gotten it for on sale in recent history?
Otherwise I'm not only paying for a match, I'm also overpaying for ammunition to shoot the match which increases the gross cost of going to the match.

What if there is a bit of a velocity difference in lot numbers based on year / production location?
Do they have a chronograph on site that we can use and free time before the match to assure the velocity of their lots are as expected
(Yes it's a thing, sometimes some lots will have lower or higher velocity than others or differences that make it perform slightly different in rifles.)

What I'm essentially trying to say is that, Frank's idea of Make it factory ammo and barrel length and / or weight works well

Start trying to say you have to use a specific ammo they are selling at the match and the whole thing falls apart and it's going to be a mess that will leave most everyone pretty angry and not wanting to spend their time and money to go, so I think that's a total non-starter.

 

[308pirate]

What I'm essentially trying to say is that, Frank's idea of Make it factory ammo and barrel length and / or weight works well

Start trying to say you have to use a specific ammo they are selling at the match and the whole thing falls apart and it's going to be a mess that will leave most everyone pretty angry and not wanting to spend their time and money to go, so I think that's a total non-starter.

I'll go one step further. What's the point of forcing people to use factory ammo in some sort of limited division if the reason for requiring it is that factory ammo is now as good as handloads? That's admitting that handloads offer no significant advantage.

But yea that's nowhere near as bad as forcing one to use some random shit sold at the match.

 

[lash]

I can't disagree too much with that. The question is, can PRS stages be designed to do that? I have no idea.

Yes, they can. I design stages like that all of the time. Think about it. A single stage can have multiple sized targets and distances. There’s no Problem with making one target 2+ moa in that stage and making other targets/distances increasingly more difficult. Also, not every stage needs to be ten targets or ten positions in 90 seconds. Sometimes one or two positions can still be used effectively to both allow hits by newer shooters and challenge for top shooters.

I often sit down on my computer days after a match and create spreadsheets of hit percentages by different groups of shooters to see if I’m putting on a balanced match that works. I literally don’t care if the top shooters hit 97-98 out of 100 possible impacts. I have yet to have anyone completely clean a match and yet the brand new and worst shooters are still getting 20-30% impacts. Mid pack shooters are getting the 50-60% hits.

And no, it’s not as easy to design stages like that, but that’s part of my challenge.

Oh and FWIW, I’m only a mid pack shooter myself now, since life keeps me very busy. I don’t practice nearly enough now and therefore get the results of that lack of practice. Plus I don’t move as quickly as I used to and flexibility suffers.

 

[spife7980]

I'm still on the position that newbs need to suck it up and bear down.

Is it a sport or is it entertainment? Gotta pick one or the other.

As am I- I dont see why responsibility is being pushed onto the PRS to coddle new shooters. If the PRS themselves is fine doing what they are doing then why does anyone else outside of that care what they do? If a match director wants to incorporate it, sure, but the mandates being demanded?
If you have your other match preferences that you claim is pushing the prs out everywhere they are tried then go support those, dont try to force it on the PRS.
If a new shooter cant effectively shoot the sport then maybe they need to work on that and enable themselves rather than trying to lower the bar and disable the sport itself.
And this is coming from someone who shoots the matches when convenient but refuses to register with the prs.

I too clearly must be missing the point

 

[rothgyr]

I think there is a lot going on here in this thread. 1 day local matches. Regional and club matches are the pipeline. They are the area for new shooters to learn and grow. If they are too hard for new shooters, that’s on the MD. They can set the COF up better, to suit everyone. I mentor new shooters every single year, as do many other competitors. But the caveat is, if you do not have some difficult matches, they can become stagnant and local shooters will plateau. If you put on a giant meatball match every month, not sure how that’s more beneficial.

Locally we have a pro am and I do believe there are lots of other areas of the country doing the same thing. Look at Texas and their loner rifle program or twisted barrel in Arkansas, just to name a few.

What I see hold people back from competing are 3 things.

1. Ego - many shooters can not handle being new and failing or getting stomped more than once. Many people are all talk. Online keyboard warriors. Most are not willing to put themselves in uncomfortable situations to compete. Some will claim people at the top are cheating. Or the rules are bad. But really they haven’t put the time in to train or find someone to help them with their mistakes.

2. Cost of ammo and components- many potential shooters state, they can not afford to shoot 100 rounds at matches more than a few times a year. Many of these people handload as well. But as we all know the last few years have been a scramble on good components. Not to mention travel costs, etc.

3. Availability of places to shoot. Many places in the country do not have access to shoot the way they think they need to practice, in order to compete. When really they can accomplish a ton of practice in 100 yards.

It has absolutely nothing to do with their rifles. That’s all just BS talk to make excuses, so they don’t have their ego bruised. Obviously there is exceptions to this statement. Speaking in absolutes gets people no where.

The two main things that I see hold back new shooters from hitting more targets and being competitive is fundamentals and data. Bad data is a constant that I see with new shooters arriving at matches. What you don’t know you don’t know.


A lot of members here live in a bubble and only see what is happening 100 miles of their front door.

At my matches next season I am willing to institute a trophy class for factory ammo/ factory gun folks. I also do see the factory PRS class as a fake class. I think of rifles like savage and Bergara for factory. But in a 2 day match setting, this rule makes zero difference to me.

I only shoot 1-2 pro matches a year, and shoot just about every month at local 1 day matches. In the regional series (which is where I expect to see new shooters show up more due to less time/money constraints) production class, gas gun class, LEO/MIL, Lady, senior, etc. classes only get you trophies at the end of the year, not a walk at the prize table.

Ego is a huge hurdle - people think they're better than they are, and if they don't come back after one match where they shot a 20/80, it's on them and their hurt pride. You don't show up to anything - music, golf, shooting, racing, cycling, MMA, art, etc. and expect to be good. You always start at the bottom, sucking hard, or just sucking a bit, and you learn the discipline and master it. Too many guys I know have been shooting middle of the pack for 3 years now while others surpass them because the other guys know how to self assess, find weaknesses in their performance, and address those weaknesses. That's the joy of being a competitor in any area or discipline. If you expect to just be good or bad at something, you're not a competitor, just a mild hobbyist, and that's fine to be as well.

One of our local MDs gets some heat from Shannon over having three different classes at his matches - Beginner, Intermediate, and Pro. Once you get a trophy in any class, you're bumped up to a new tier and have to compete there. Trophies in each category are just a saw blade with an etched "2nd Place, Beginner Division" on the blade.

I see a lot of beginners at his match vs the other local matches. A lot of hunters showing up and having a good time. At the last match a guy in my squad was running a 22-250 Savage with 45 gr soft point bullets, a BDC reticle and capped turrets, and his buddy's ruger american 6.5 died after two stages with a broken extractor. At the end of the match, they both had 3 and 5 hits out of 80, respectively. I let them both shoot my extra ammo with my gun, and coached them on a stage for no points, and they both ended up with more impacts with what they had gotten during the whole match. They both had a blast, and they'll almost certainly be back.

I don't think it's up to the PRS to make it beginner friendly, but on the MDs, and us as competitors. It does however bother me that Shannon gives our MD a hard time about the "classes" at the local match. It's not doing anything in the regional series, and only about 1/3rd of the guys at the regional matches are even registered for the PRS season anyways, so who cares?

To the original spirit of the thread - new season, new ideas for improving the sport?

• Match points shouldn't be percentage of the winner's score. Why the heck aren't we using a normalized curve with z-scores and percentiles? I can shoot a 25 person match anywhere in the country with a bunch of bad shooters at an easy location and walk away with a 100. Do it three times, and I'm pretty close to winning my regional series...
  
  
• Allow beginners to declare themselves and be removed from the match's points in favor of letting them get legit coaching. While I stand by ego needing to be less of a factor, it is brutal to get 12/80 shots at a match and not know why. Getting coaching at a match would be legit and help people get a taste and want more.
  
  
• If we're going to have an "official rifle of the PRS", let's take a donor rifle from a manufacturer to let beginners shoot at matches as a marketing effort or something instead of just lining the series' pockets with a little change for useless ad space. A purpose built PRS rifle with a limited price that's available for anyone to shoot at a match to try it out would be legit, and would point people toward what works. Similar to NRL's donor rifle setup they had when they were alive and well (RIP NRL)
  
  
• Possibly consider tie breakers to be gun weight/power factor, similar to NRLH? Might encourage 18 lbs rifles over 25 lbs truck axles.
  
  
• Less focus on 2 day matches. I can't do Sat/Sun matches due to personal reasons, and time away from family (three small kids). I only make it to the Hornady PRC and Rifles Only since they're both Friday/Saturday. Pro matches are biased toward who can spend time away from their family's for a weekend. Interesting point about rodeos and being a whole family affair for a whole weekend. Could be interesting to do PRS Rimfire/NRL22 at the same time as the main match, with other events other than sitting around waiting your turn to shoot. PRS matches are kind of boring if you're not shooting.

 

[rothgyr]

In the end, it's more on us as competitors and match directors to make it a better space. Why wait for it to change from the top down?

 

[Emerson0311]

Yes, they can. I design stages like that all of the time. Think about it. A single stage can have multiple sized targets and distances. There’s no Problem with making one target 2+ moa in that stage and making other targets/distances increasingly more difficult. Also, not every stage needs to be ten targets or ten positions in 90 seconds. Sometimes one or two positions can still be used effectively to both allow hits by newer shooters and challenge for top shooters.

I often sit down on my computer days after a match and create spreadsheets of hit percentages by different groups of shooters to see if I’m putting on a balanced match that works. I literally don’t care if the top shooters hit 97-98 out of 100 possible impacts. I have yet to have anyone completely clean a match and yet the brand new and worst shooters are still getting 20-30% impacts. Mid pack shooters are getting the 50-60% hits.

And no, it’s not as easy to design stages like that, but that’s part of my challenge.

Oh and FWIW, I’m only a mid pack shooter myself now, since life keeps me very busy. I don’t practice nearly enough now and therefore get the results of that lack of practice. Plus I don’t move as quickly as I used to and flexibility suffers.

That’s exactly what I will try to do when putting in local matches. You articulated my thoughts very well.

 

[lash]

That’s exactly what I will try to do when putting in local matches. You articulated my thoughts very well.

Good for you. I’ll warn you that it’s a process and you don’t always get it just right. However, when you are trying to balance the COF for this, you are halfway through the battle.

Just try to keep in mind the participants that actually may/do show up versus those you want to encourage. It’s a balance.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

So to shoot the match, I'd need to find out what rounds they are going to be selling there, then spend a bunch of extra time and money figuring out which one works somewhat as good as the other higher end factory rounds I currently use, (and am going to stick with because I know they work excellent) and then are they going to guarantee that specific one is available?

Are they going to be price gouging for it?
Are they going to be willing to sell it for the lowest price I could have gotten it for on sale in recent history?
Otherwise I'm not only paying for a match, I'm also overpaying for ammunition to shoot the match which increases the gross cost of going to the match.

What if there is a bit of a velocity difference in lot numbers based on year / production location?
Do they have a chronograph on site that we can use and free time before the match to assure the velocity of their lots are as expected
(Yes it's a thing, sometimes some lots will have lower or higher velocity than others or differences that make it perform slightly different in rifles.)

What I'm essentially trying to say is that, Frank's idea of Make it factory ammo and barrel length and / or weight works well

Start trying to say you have to use a specific ammo they are selling at the match and the whole thing falls apart and it's going to be a mess that will leave most everyone pretty angry and not wanting to spend their time and money to go, so I think that's a total non-starter.

You keep trying to make something simple hard. Its not hard, the association standardized two brands in three or four standard rounds and that’s what is offered, everywhere.

Final thought, different lots. If someone can’t afford a carload (read Railroad boxcar carload)of ammo, he is going to eventually run into lot differences anyway

Now good friend, you may feel free to enter a rebuttal, but with this I am done.

 

[Yoteski]

I still contend it's a financial issue and nothing will change until rates go up and shooters get paid. If it's a Pro series, I think that's fantastic, but make it a pro series. It's not marketable to call it inviting, and basically have it an open format. I still contend the prize tables are what gets everyone's panties in a bunch, and here's my main bitch with them....

All these one day matches are introducing new shooters to the sport, with little to no support from the powers that be. All the mean while, the two day matches get the majority of good prizes that shooters use to fund their hobby. It sometimes ends up in the hands of new shooters, but not often; and I'm not just pointing fingers at the PRS here.

It's literally a business model that is not used in any other professional sport. If the sponsors want to support the large two day matches, pay for entry fees, costs, equipment etc. for the shooters they feel are worth sponsoring. Let the prizes trickle down to more one-day matches to encourage growth at that level. Make the prize tables at that level a not winner-take-all format.

If you could make $10,000 for winning a national level two day, then I'd consider it more of a "pro" level sport. It is an absolute joke to me seeing someone with an optics company logo plastered all over them, pimping their scopes on podcasts, youtube, etc., pick up another optics company's scope off the prize table; and I've seen this happen a bunch (substitute chassis, barrel companies, etc.) I have no idea how they retain their sponsorships doing so, and it's not a good look for the sponsors. I say this from plenty of feedback from newer shooters.

Increase the match fees, pay the top shooters, trickle down equipment to shooters who are starting up. Until this happens, saying anyone is a "pro" shooter in PRS/NRL is a joke, not that there aren't guys who deserve the title.

 

[nickw]

It’s been a long time since I’ve been around USPSA but when they came out with production class there was no dollar amount. Just a factory produced pistol and for a company to get an approved pistol there had to be so many produced. Could do the same here, factory produced rifle and just add a weight limit and barrel length and add in factory ammo only.

I shot USPSA for a long time, still do occasionally. Production division (factory built pistol with a minimum number of guns produced) became one of if not the most popular division in USPSA. Especially for new shooters breaking into the sport. Grab your Glock and come shoot. Carry optics is grown the same way, allow shooters to put a dot on their carry gun or production gun and come shoot. No dollar value assigned. I agree that putting a dollar value on a division just makes that the entry fee for the division. If you want to bring in new shooters, give them an option to shoot a rifle they can go to the gun store and buy off the shelf…. Savage precision, Ruger RPR, Bergara, etc. Limit what modifications can be done to the production rifles. USPSA has done a very good job with this (divisions) and should be looked at for a model. I’ve also strongly encouraged MD’s and SK to looked at their safety rules. Shooters run with loaded pistols and rifles and shoot on the move in USPSA and 3Gun and safety violations / injuries are minimum. Any safety violations are dealt with quickly and consistently. I’ve had more guns pointed at me and seen more safety violations in PRS than any other shooting sport I’ve participated in. PRS could learn a lot from USPSA.

 

[308pirate]

You keep trying to make something simple hard. Its not hard, the association standardized two brands in three or four standard rounds and that’s what is offered, everywhere.

You miss the point. NOBODY wants to deal with the lot to lot variation of ammo that YOU HAVEN'T HAD THE CHANCE TO TEST BEFORE THE MATCH.

There isn't a single serious successful shooting sport that forces you to use the ammo the sell you at the match.

NOT ONE. You're not the smart guy that's going to re-invent that wheel.

Nobody who is serious about competing is going to accept that bullshit.

 

[308pirate]

I still contend it's a financial issue and nothing will change until rates go up and shooters get paid. If it's a Pro series, I think that's fantastic, but make it a pro series. It's not marketable to call it inviting, and basically have it an open format. I still contend the prize tables are what gets everyone's panties in a bunch, and here's my main bitch with them....

All these one day matches are introducing new shooters to the sport, with little to no support from the powers that be. All the mean while, the two day matches get the majority of good prizes that shooters use to fund their hobby. It sometimes ends up in the hands of new shooters, but not often; and I'm not just pointing fingers at the PRS here.

It's literally a business model that is not used in any other professional sport. If the sponsors want to support the large two day matches, pay for entry fees, costs, equipment etc. for the shooters they feel are worth sponsoring. Let the prizes trickle down to more one-day matches to encourage growth at that level. Make the prize tables at that level a not winner-take-all format.

If you could make $10,000 for winning a national level two day, then I'd consider it more of a "pro" level sport. It is an absolute joke to me seeing someone with an optics company logo plastered all over them, pimping their scopes on podcasts, youtube, etc., pick up another optics company's scope off the prize table; and I've seen this happen a bunch (substitute chassis, barrel companies, etc.) I have no idea how they retain their sponsorships doing so, and it's not a good look for the sponsors. I say this from plenty of feedback from newer shooters.

Increase the match fees, pay the top shooters, trickle down equipment to shooters who are starting up. Until this happens, saying anyone is a "pro" shooter in PRS/NRL is a joke, not that there aren't guys who deserve the title.

All shooting sports are amateur sports. Every last one of them. Even the best shooters in USPSA cannot make a living out of their sponsorship. They have to teach or have real side jobs.

PRS will NOT be the one to make work what no one has ever been able to make work.

Before the PRS came about the National Sporting Clays association tried to launch its PRO series with big payouts, invitationals, etc. It waddled around for 2-3 years then died out of lack of interest, and that was in sporting clays: a shooting sport that has a HUGE amount of grassroots/amateur participation compared to long range rifle. And by that I mean bigger by several orders of magnitude.

This is from 2014: https://www.shotgunlife.com/shotgun...-landmark-broadcast-deal-with-nbc-sports.html

Go click on the PSCA link there.........LOL it's dead.

It's fucking laughable watching this shitshow having the benefit of the hindsight that all this has been done before and always ended in failure.

The only way PRS or any precision rifle sport will ever enjoy a modicum of success beyond being an obscure niche is by following the IPSC/USPSA business model which for all its warts is the most successful non-clay shooting sport in the world.

Trying to make it a "professional" sport is guaranteed to kill it like it has killed every other attempt in other shooting sports.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

NOT ONE. You're not the smart guy that's going to re-invent that wheel.

But its such a beautiful wheel.

What you think?

First, it was never my suggestion. Trying to think out of the box to make another’s suggestion workable. Me, shooting factory ammo at a match, $40.00 per 20 = $200.00. Not going to happen.

 

[jre0807]

Like all sports or hobbies, PRS has a point of diminishing returns. The difference is PRS has a very steep learning curve and after a few matches and learning a few tricks of the trade, people usually at least break into mid pack or maybe even the top 10-20 because let’s be honest, it’s not that hard to be competitive after a little effort(not saying it isn’t fun, because it still is). So where do people go after a few months (or years) with little to no progression after the learning curve plateaus? If you live where I do, it’s archery. Everyone is dropping their rifles for a bow and not looking back. Not to mention if you can find components, they alone price the vast majority of people interested in shooting out of consistently competing.

 

[Emerson0311]

Like all sports or hobbies, PRS has a point of diminishing returns. The difference is PRS has a very steep learning curve and after a few matches and learning a few tricks of the trade, people usually at least break into mid pack or maybe even the top 10-20 because let’s be honest, it’s not that hard to be competitive after a little effort(not saying it isn’t fun, because it still is). So where do people go after a few months (or years) with little to no progression after the learning curve plateaus? If you live where I do, it’s archery. Everyone is dropping their rifles for a bow and not looking back. Not to mention if you can find components, they alone price the vast majority of people interested in shooting out of consistently competing.

That’s a good point. If I can hit the podium a few times then there is nothing to prove afterward that by spending $1K+ to travel to a match. Running local matches might be fun though.

 

[Baron23]

There isn't a single serious successful shooting sport that forces you to use the ammo the sell you at the match

Perhaps true in metallic, but I offer the ATA Grand as one…actually, the only example I know of.

What about Olympic shooting sports? Are all allowed to bring their own?

 

[308pirate]

I offer the ATA Grand as one…actually, the only example I know of.

Probably because ammo cheating has been rampant particularly in handicap and ATA never figured out how to check like IDPA and USPSA do with a chronograph.

What about Olympic shooting sports? Are all allowed to bring their own?

Each team brings their own or arranges to have it delivered to the venue

 

[adubeau]

But its such a beautiful wheel.View attachment 7982604

What you think?

First, it was never my suggestion. Trying to think out of the box to make another’s suggestion workable. Me, shooting factory ammo at a match, $40.00 per 20 = $200.00. Not going to happen.

I am with you on that, Not spending 200+ on ammo - plus fees travel and the like. My club has their own PRS style comp. I may try that next year when it starts up in May, entry fee is below 30.00 and 45 minutes away...

 

[Baron23]

Probably because ammo cheating has been rampant particularly in handicap and ATA never figured out how to check like IDPA and USPSA do with a chronograph.


Each team brings their own or arranges to have it delivered to the venue

Haha…yeah, some of those handicap guys load up 12 ga mortar rounds. Only people in the world to complain about Krieghoff blowing up and never once thinking that years of over pressure may have had anything to do with it Lol. Never heard of a single K-80 catastrophically failing in skeet…for a good reason, I think.

Didn’t know what they do in Olympics. Thanks for info.

Cheers my friend.

 

[carbonbased]

This may be a dumb question/suggestion as I don’t compete and I don’t know enough about anything to talk about rules. What I will address is increasing interest in a PRS-type sport.

I don’t compete, in part, because there’s nowhere to practice.

What do I mean that there’s nowhere to practice?

If we think of something like golf, there are courses all over to play a round with friends. You learn the rules and may slowly get better and one day you might enter a competition.

You don’t just launch into a competition on your very first ever round of golf.

Shooting paper or steel at a shooting range is way more akin to hitting balls at a golf driving range. And driving ranges do not teach you how to play a round of golf.

Around here (twin cities MN) every range is paper-based, and I think shooting paper sucks. I like to shoot animals, and steel is closer to that. And no range I know of around here has a “golf course” to practice on (like even a crappy little nine hole golf course). Instead they are all “driving ranges” where guys line up and hit ball after ball after ball to practice their “swing”

So what are we to do?

Maybe you start local, each one of you, by building a little permanent rimfire “nine-hole golf course” within your local range. The COF has a map, each “hole” has a small board with instructions and an illustration (shoot off tire this way, etc). There are “ladies tees” (bigger/easier targets that are consistently differently colored than the hard ones aka “men’s tees”).

Maybe you have free scorecards and little short pencils to keep track of how you did, just like at golf courses.

This way you encourage small groups of guys/gals to play a “round” of “golf” and have a little friendly competition.

And at some point, the competitive ones that have gotten good enough feel like they could seek out an actual competition.

And maybe somebody that knows how to design a “golf course” can provide a free starter pamphlet pdf for people who want to set up these little steel courses. Things like, here are three different courses in three different environments or whatever.

Anyway, that’s what I got.

 

[carbonbased]

Barring the above (or in conjunction with), each real competition should probably have their own little rimfire “nine–hole” PRS course set up on the grounds of the actual competition.

Along with advertisements/emails about the actual competition make sure you mention this little rimfire PRS course that is open to all. Make this little course free as a loss-leader or charge some small nominal fee.

In short, quit thinking about PRS as a competition series and start thinking about it as a sport. A sport like any other sport that needs a certain critical mass of players to feed into competitions and which makes those competitions worthwhile.

 

[carbonbased]

Like, get the sport into the high schools. Our local high school has a clay shooting team.

If I was someone that I was passionate about PRS-style shooting I would start hyper local. Go to your local ranges and get these little (permanent!) rimfire courses set up. Get your local high schools to start teams. Then expand out to another town, across the state, into the colleges, regionally, etc.

 

[Sparkeytj]

I cant afford to buy a range to test my theory but I always thought ranges could set areas up like sporting clays courses a designed shooting area and preset stage.

 

[babyguppy]

Like all sports or hobbies, PRS has a point of diminishing returns. The difference is PRS has a very steep learning curve and after a few matches and learning a few tricks of the trade, people usually at least break into mid pack or maybe even the top 10-20 because let’s be honest, it’s not that hard to be competitive after a little effort(not saying it isn’t fun, because it still is). So where do people go after a few months (or years) with little to no progression after the learning curve plateaus? If you live where I do, it’s archery. Everyone is dropping their rifles for a bow and not looking back. Not to mention if you can find components, they alone price the vast majority of people interested in shooting out of consistently competing.

I knew a lot of people who went ARchery during hunting season because of all the rifle hunters.
Less people = greater chance of meat in freezer.

 

[308pirate]

This may be a dumb question/suggestion as I don’t compete and I don’t know enough about anything to talk about rules. What I will address is increasing interest in a PRS-type sport.

I don’t compete, in part, because there’s nowhere to practice.

Stop right there. Everything beyond that point on your post is a fallacy based on not knowing what you don't know.

Every range that goes only to 100 yards and only allows paper targets is a perfect place to practice recoil management from any position that you can find in a PRS match.

Every house has enough space to do dry fire practice for all the position building and transition skills needed to do well in a PRS match.

There are plenty of threads in this forum that explain both of those topics in detail if you want to learn more.

You, like most people who don't compete, assume that the only way to get good at competition is to have your practice be running the same course of fire used in competition over and over.

That's not how it works.

 

[308pirate]

You don’t just launch into a competition on your very first ever round of golf.

This is an extremely bad analogy on many levels.

 

[308pirate]

I cant afford to buy a range to test my theory but I always thought ranges could set areas up like sporting clays courses a designed shooting area and preset stage.

False equivalency. Rifle and pistol shooting sports can be practiced for away from the competition venue and a lot of that practice can be done at home. That's not possible with clay shooting sports.

First hand experience with all three............

 

[Alpine 338]

.

The SH Cup will be over in 2023, 20 years of the Cup, and I am done; it's gonna be in NE and be an epic farewell.

NE as in North East, New England, or Nebraska? Hopefully it's Nebraska, as I would be there for the last one.

 

[Mormegil87]

You can practice everything you need to practice at home with dry fire and at 100yds on paper.

 

[carbonbased]

Stop right there. Everything beyond that point on your post is a fallacy based on not knowing what you don't know.

Every range that goes only to 100 yards and only allows paper targets is a perfect place to practice recoil management from any position that you can find in a PRS match.

Every house has enough space to do dry fire practice for all the position building and transition skills needed to do well in a PRS match.

There are plenty of threads in this forum that explain both of those topics in detail if you want to learn more.

You, like most people who don't compete, assume that the only way to get good at competition is to have your practice be running the same course of fire used in competition over and over.

That's not how it works.

You can practice everything you need to practice at home with dry fire and at 100yds on paper.

What I’m getting at is not the specific tools, the skills, that are required.

I’m talking about a person (not me, general shooter) feeling comfortable enough with the game to actually pay to attend a comp.

I can spend all day shooting hoops in my driveway (dry firing) and not know anything about playing basketball, is what I’m saying. And not feeling confident enough to attend a comp which is what we’re sort of driving at, right? More shooters?

My range only offers benches. The only way to do anything else would be if no one else is there and then sneak out in front of the benches. They have lots of cameras (caught some cops doing stupid stuff one day).

But both of your points are certainly valid for the motivated shooter. I’m taking the view of the regular shooter than may graduate into a paying and attending PRS comp shooter. Both of you dudes are not the target market here as you guys are super motivated to seek out solutions.

If golf was that way, about 400 people would play golf, you dig?

 

[Mormegil87]

I dig. Just wholeheartedly disagree with you. I got into this 7 or 8 years ago with absolutely no shooting background beyond gun hunting out to 50yds.

I've gotten a ton of local guys into competition, it's quite as simple as: "hey man, come to our match this weekend. Hang out with us afterwards."

 

[308pirate]

What I’m getting at is not the specific tools, the skills, that are required.

Yes, that is exactly what I am talking about. Position building and recoil management are two of the most fundamental skills needed for PRS and both of them can be practiced to perfection without ever going to a match or even a range with steel targets. In fact paper gives tons more feedback than steel if you know how to use it. And there is a thread on exactly how to do so right here.

I’m talking about a person (not me, general shooter) feeling comfortable enough with the game to actually pay to attend a comp.

The only way to develop that confidence is to play the game. There is no other way. Club matches are the street courts.

I can spend all day shooting hoops in my driveway (dry firing) and not know anything about playing basketball, is what I’m saying. And not feeling confident enough to attend a comp which is what we’re sort of driving at, right? More shooters?

This is where I think the major disconnect lies. Shooting sports require the individual motivation to go in knowing very little and learning as one goes. That makes some people very uncomfortable. Unfortunately, that discomfort will keep some people away. It is what it is.

My range only offers benches. The only way to do anything else would be if no one else is there and then sneak out in front of the benches.

There is space between the benches to lay prone and to place a small stepladder to simulate a barricade. Go read the RifleKraft thread and get an education on what can be done and learned in a 100 yard range and how little "stuff" it requires to do so.

But both of your points are certainly valid for the motivated shooter. I’m taking the view of the regular shooter than may graduate into a paying and attending PRS comp shooter. Both of you dudes are not the target market here as you guys are super motivated to seek out solutions.

The shooting sports require a level of motivation and commitment that the casual shooter will never, ever have. This is a self selecting pool. You either want to do it and get out of your comfort zone to do it, or you stay outside looking in because you're full of self-doubt/ego issues/lack of motivation.

The shooting sports are hard, even at the lower levels. A highly motivated SWAT cop is, at best, a high C class USPSA shooter when they start. That's not my opinion. That's my observation of actual swat cops start in the sport.

If golf was that way, about 400 people would play golf, you dig?

USPSA has at least 15,000 paying members, and at least that many non-members who compete in the sport, since you don't need to be a USPSA member to compete in level 1 (club) matches. Just pay the match fee and shoot. So no, I don't dig.

There are two kinds of shooters who will never, ever like competition:

• Those who think they should have a "chance" from day one
• Those who think they need to be "prepared/ready" to start competing.

I can spot the second group a mile away when they always say "I have to practice more". They have no fucking idea what to practice because they've never been exposed to the sport (whichever sport). It's just a way to save face.

 

[Mormegil87]

I've had my disagreements with @308pirate but in this case he is 100% correct on all points. No changes to the rulebook will change the simple fact that you have to be self motivated to want to compete. Even if that self motivation starts out as taking a class, whether that is one of Frank's, a JTAC, MDS or even just the local guys putting on a free beginners clinic.

THE single largest barrier to entry for this game, not sport, is cost. Period. We can use archery as a barometer all we want but archery is extremely cheap to get into, like $300 all in cheap. You'll spend almost $300 in match fees and ammo for a local match in PRS. There's just no way around it.

Changing the production class rules won't change that. Adding or subtracting classes and rules for those classes, won't change that. Even offering up a spare rifle, which I do and several local MDs have club rifles for new shooters to have, doesn't get rid of cost as a barrier to entry. I had an entire custom gun built on a Defiance I'm 2016 for less than what the Production cap is right now. A Mk5 is, hands down, the best production scope on the market and it's well under the MSRP. Yes the Production rules are lame, but that's not the problem in this game.

 

[carbonbased]

I dig. Just wholeheartedly disagree with you. I got into this 7 or 8 years ago with absolutely no shooting background beyond gun hunting out to 50yds.

I've gotten a ton of local guts into competition, it's quite as simple as: "hey man, come to our match this weekend. Hang out with us afterwards."

I think we need to hear from all sorts of users vs thinking about how we got into the sport.

Everyone here (mostly), myself included, is waaaay motivated and outside the norms. I just happen not to be motivated much by comps and more motivated by hunting. Don’t personalize this, either by looking at me or looking at how you got into shooting sports.

Remember, I’m not talking about succeeding against all resistance. I’m talking about increasing the pool of which competitors come from. There’s a billion non-competing golfers that make golf courses financially viable.

You absolutely need non-competitors playing at least sort of the same game to make a sport viable.

Without millions of hunters there would be very few rifles, shotguns, R&D, and all of the ammo that makes them work.

Imagine a target shooter, a benchrest guy, that has never hunted elk. Or hunted anything. Yeah he can practice hunting elk in his damn basement, buy different gear, research crap on YouTube, practice gutting an animal using a sack of potatoes (ha), but only the super, super motivated are going to do this.

Result? 400 people shooting elk.

What you want to do is lower the barrier to entry. Like hunter safety classes. Like youth hunting seasons that are earlier and adults can’t hunt then (obv, just spelling it out).

For a PRS-type sport, at minimum, it would help if a range have one stand, rimfire, obv outside the range shed, with a placard outlining a typical PRS match. Next to the placard would be maybe three different objects to shoot off of. Various positions. Maybe 10ft wide? Maybe you can be the local “golf pro” that has occasional teaching sessions.

This would be the local crappy 9-hole golf course.

If you’re serious about growing the sport, you guys have to brainstorm, to risk saying silly things, and hear and entertain uncomfortable thoughts.

The current conditions are what brought PRS to its state it now sits in.

(P.S. I’m also talking about increasing the # of local level comps too, not making it easy to score high in any comp. Around here I hear of precious few local events. Remember, I’m not interested, this isn’t about me. It’s about keeping your sport alive and interesting.)

 

[308pirate]

I've had my disagreements with @308pirate but in this case he is 100% correct on all points. No changes to the rulebook will change the simple fact that you have to be self motivated to want to compete. Even if that self motivation starts out as taking a class, whether that is one of Frank's, a JTAC, MDS or even just the local guys putting on a free beginners clinic.

THE single largest barrier to entry for this game, not sport, is cost. Period. We can use archery as a barometer all we want but archery is extremely cheap to get into, like $300 all in cheap. You'll spend almost $300 in match fees and ammo for a local match in PRS. There's just no way around it.

Changing the production class rules won't change that. Adding or subtracting classes and rules for those classes, won't change that. Even offering up a spare rifle, which I do and several local MDs have club rifles for new shooters to have, doesn't get rid of cost as a barrier to entry. I had an entire custom gun built on a Defiance I'm 2016 for less than what the Production cap is right now. A Mk5 is, hands down, the best production scope on the market and it's well under the MSRP. Yes the Production rules are lame, but that's not the problem in this game.

Another big, but related problem, is that some (many it seems) people that don't understand rifle (and pistol) sports think they *must* have access to a 600 - 1000 yard range full of random steel targets and with all sort of PRS props (or a stage full of walls, ports, texas stars, swingers, etc for pistol) to be able to PRACTICE.

They are so unbelievably wrong but you can't tell them otherwise

 

[Mormegil87]

It was mentioned before about having a CoF with targets for the top guys, midpack and new.

Good MDs don't need to do that. Good MDs set up their CoFs so that the new shooters can get 3 or 4 and feel good when they work to get a 5. Mid pack guys can get a 5-7 and feel good when they work to get an 8 or 9. The top guys get 8-9s and feel good when they clean it. The really good MDs do that for every stage on the CoF so there is no "separator" stage. They all separate themselves on the stage.

 

[Rexwagon]

What I’m getting at is not the specific tools, the skills, that are required.

I’m talking about a person (not me, general shooter) feeling comfortable enough with the game to actually pay to attend a comp.

I can spend all day shooting hoops in my driveway (dry firing) and not know anything about playing basketball, is what I’m saying. And not feeling confident enough to attend a comp which is what we’re sort of driving at, right? More shooters?

My range only offers benches. The only way to do anything else would be if no one else is there and then sneak out in front of the benches. They have lots of cameras (caught some cops doing stupid stuff one day).

But both of your points are certainly valid for the motivated shooter. I’m taking the view of the regular shooter than may graduate into a paying and attending PRS comp shooter. Both of you dudes are not the target market here as you guys are super motivated to seek out solutions.

If golf was that way, about 400 people would play golf, you dig?

If you need help getting started or a place to go. Hit me up with your info. I know lots of ppl who shoot in your area and I will get you a mentor.

 

[Mormegil87]

Another big, but related problem, is that some (many it seems) people that don't understand rifle (and pistol) sports think they *must* have access to a 600 - 1000 yard range full of random steel targets and with all sort of PRS props (or a stage full of walls, ports, texas stars, swingers, etc for pistol) to be able to PRACTICE.

They are so unbelievably wrong but you can't tell them otherwise

I may try a few pistol matches in 2023. All I've been doing for practice is follow Ben Stoeger and dry firing like it's no one's business. I have no doubt I'll get my teeth kicked in my first match, but that's part of the fun.