New Year, New Rules, maybe ...

[308pirate]

I think we need to hear from all sorts of users vs thinking about how we got into the sport.

Everyone here (mostly), myself included, is waaaay motivated and outside the norms. I just happen not to be motivated much by comps and more motivated by hunting. Don’t personalize this, either by looking at me or looking at how you got into shooting sports.

Remember, I’m not talking about succeeding against all resistance. I’m talking about increasing the pool of which competitors come from. There’s a billion non-competing golfers that make golf courses financially viable.

You absolutely need non-competitors playing at least sort of the same game to make a sport viable.

Without millions of hunters there would be very few rifles, shotguns, R&D, and all of the ammo that makes them work.

Imagine a target shooter, a benchrest guy, that has never hunted elk. Or hunted anything. Yeah he can practice hunting elk in his damn basement, buy different gear, research crap on YouTube, practice gutting an animal using a sack of potatoes (ha), but only the super, super motivated are going to do this.

Result? 400 people shooting elk.

What you want to do is lower the barrier to entry. Like hunter safety classes. Like youth hunting seasons that are earlier and adults can’t hunt then (obv, just spelling it out).

For a PRS-type sport, at minimum, it would help if a range have one stand, obv outside the range shed, with a placard outlining a typical PRS match. Next to the placard would be maybe three different objects to shoot off of. Various positions. Maybe 10ft wide? Maybe you can be the local “golf pro” that has occasional teaching sessions.

This would be the local crappy 9-hole golf course.

If you’re serious about growing the sport, you guys have to brainstorm, to risk saying silly things, and hear and entertain uncomfortable thoughts.

The current conditions are what brought PRS to its state it now sits in.

I've been involved in the shooting sports since 1999. Shotgun, rifle, and pistol. Everything has been tried. People without intrinsic motivation will not take the step no matter what you do. People with intrinsic motivation will find a way no matter what.

Sporting clays has a much, much broader reach than anything rifle. The same course that was used for the monthly NSCA match is usually left open to the public for at least a week after the match. The cross over from the general duffers and hunters to competition is minuscule. Always has been.

When NRA highpower rifle used to be a thing, my club would throw two clinics a year one in the spring and one in the fall. These clinics were staffed by the really good shooters in the club (Expert, Master, and High Master classification) and they would bring extra mats, rifles, ammo, spotting scopes, etc. The number of people coming to the clinics was never more than a dozen and we might be lucky if we saw ONE guy come back to a match.

If you placed that much effort into actually seeking a match and learning from it you would be much farther ahead than waiting until someone lays out the path for you.

 

[carbonbased]

If you need help getting started or a place to go. Hit me up with your info. I know lots of ppl who shoot in your area and I will get you a mentor.

Hey, thx for that! My problem is a weird hearing issue in that I lose hearing when shooting unsuppressed. Even doubled up with the most Micky-mouse earmuffs. Damn left ear is the problem. No solution, doc says.

If there were 100% suppressed matches, well shit, that would get my attention.

I’ll PM you for info nonetheless.

 

[Rexwagon]

It was mentioned before about having a CoF with targets for the top guys, midpack and new.

Good MDs don't need to do that. Good MDs set up their CoFs so that the new shooters can get 3 or 4 and feel good when they work to get a 5. Mid pack guys can get a 5-7 and feel good when they work to get an 8 or 9. The top guys get 8-9s and feel good when they clean it. The really good MDs do that for every stage on the CoF so there is no "separator" stage. They all separate themselves on the stage.

Yes.

So many local/outlaw matches try to have this one hard stage that they think is a separation stage. It doesn’t work that way. They put a spinner in there Or often some 20 point stage. This does nothing but leave much of the results up to luck. Having a good solid COF like mentioned above is all that is needed. There is stage designs available on the PRS website in the matchbook. Along with the old NRL website. I don’t think most of the naysayers in this thread have ever opened that PDF before. The MD can create his own stages and reference these. But if your looking to do some practice, it’s a good resource to look at to Create some props or shooting scenarios, even at 100 yards.

 

[carbonbased]

If you placed that much effort into actually seeking a match and learning from it you would be much farther ahead than waiting until someone lays out the path for you.

Not about me. Unless a 100% suppressed match comes up (see my immediately prior post).

To summarize: think of the hunter safety class model, getting into high schools, and helpful local pros at the golf pro shop as feeders. You want your sport to grow, you, gentle reader, have to do something about it. And it isn’t just about self-motivation and optimizing the rulebook.

Because that’s how you, collectively, got to this state of affairs.

 

[Rexwagon]

Hey, thx for that! My problem is a weird hearing issue in that I lose hearing when shooting unsuppressed. Even doubled up with the most Micky-mouse earmuffs. Damn left ear is the problem. No solution, doc says.

If there were 100% suppressed matches,

There is a suppressor only match in Kansas on the schedule for national Level.

Otherwise if you go to other matches. You can ask the match director if there will be a suppressor squad. Often times the weird ppl who all shoot suppressed squad together.

 

[carbonbased]

Often times the weird ppl who all shoot suppressed squad together.

I have been called weird…

 

[Mormegil87]

Yes.

So many local/outlaw matches try to have this one hard stage that they think is a separation stage. It doesn’t work that way. They put a spinner in there Or often some 20 point stage. This does nothing but leave much of the results up to luck. Having a good solid COF like mentioned above is all that is needed. There is stage designs available on the PRS website in the matchbook. Along with the old NRL website. I don’t think most of the naysayers in this thread have ever opened that PDF before. The MD can create his own stages and reference these. But if your looking to do some practice, it’s a good resource to look at to Create some props or shooting scenarios, even at 100 yards.

Gimmicks like boats, spinners etc should stay at the circus where they belong.

Like it or not the PRS (and NRL when they were competition to PRS) was more about race gun competition than tactical or hunting, which I feel is a good thing. Competitors like to see balance and being challenged by the psychological aspects of the game, the environmental conditions etc, not some BS gimmick. Most competitors want to see the most consistent shooter win, not the guy who got lucky on a gimmick stage.

A friend of mine who is an MD tried making his PRS 2 day match a more tactical type match and attendance plummeted. He tried making it an outlaw match this year and it didn't improve his attendance.

 

[308pirate]

To summarize: think of the hunter safety class model, getting into high schools, and helpful local pros at the golf pro shop as feeders.

Hunter safety class model has zero crossover or applicability

Getting into high schools? LOL

Gun clubs are full of duffers who can see the matches going on. They never take a step even when offered help.

 

[Mormegil87]

Not about me. Unless a 100% suppressed match comes up (see my immediately prior post).

To summarize: think of the hunter safety class model, getting into high schools, and helpful local pros at the golf pro shop as feeders. You want your sport to grow, you, gentle reader, have to do something about it. And it isn’t just about self-motivation and optimizing the rulebook.

Because that’s how you, collectively, got to this state of affairs.

Again I disagree. We are in this situation because the average American can't afford to drop $300 for one day of entertainment per month. For most Americans, that's a car payment or grocery bills. For most $1000 on a rifle and $500 on an optic is a once in a lifetime purchase, if ever. We can get into schools all we want and start all the programs we want at the local level, I agree that would be a good thing just from a 2A advocate standpoint, but it will have next to no affect on PRS attendance. This is a bougie sport.

 

[carbonbased]

I dig. Just wholeheartedly disagree with you. I got into this 7 or 8 years ago with absolutely no shooting background beyond gun hunting out to 50yds.

I've gotten a ton of local guys into competition, it's quite as simple as: "hey man, come to our match this weekend. Hang out with us afterwards."

You are actually doing some of the things I’m talking about.

You are acting like the local golf pro in the golf pro shop (only you’re not charging anything). You are an ambassador and lowering the barrier to entry.

There are many other ways to lower that barrier.

Or people can continue the status quo and complain and complain.

 

[308pirate]

Or people can continue the status quo and complain and complain.

I'm pretty sure no one who is competing is complaining about attendance levels. I'm pretty sure the complaints are about the sanctioning body that makes the rules and organizes the competition framework (note the competition framework is not the same thing as the competition itself)

 

[Rexwagon]

I'm pretty sure no one who is competing is complaining about attendance levels. I'm pretty sure the complaints are about the sanctioning body that makes the rules and organizes the competition framework (note the competition framework is not the same thing as the competition itself)

This is true.


I also would say, most of the complaints are from non members who have never even shot a match and complain about the series from their keyboards.

 

[carbonbased]

Golf isn’t cheap either, but look at how many clubs are around.

Average 18 holes of golf in the USA is $61. You play every weekend that’s about $250, more because you’re losing balls and maybe renting a cart.

Competitions ≠ playing. I’m talking about increase playing.

Source for the price of golf:

How much does it cost to play golf? Here are average green fees in America

How much does it cost to play golf? We explain the average green fee in the United States depending on time of day

thegolfnewsnet.com

C’mon guys. Stay positive and try things. Again and again. To do otherwise is to give up.

 

[Mormegil87]

Going to the range is playing...

 

[carbonbased]

I'm pretty sure no one who is competing is complaining about attendance levels.

This is true.
I also would say, most of the complaints are from non members who have never even shot a match and complain about the series from their keyboards.

No one? @lowlight is saying so in this very thread. Quote below:

Look at the real-world numbers they post online; less than 400 people registered as PRS members shoot at least 3 matches as required to compete in the finale. The numbers are bullshit, and everyone outside of the public knows it

The numbers don't lie, the fact a small group can appear bigger is not sustainable

 

[carbonbased]

Going to the range is playing...

And I’m talking about making the local range more fun to “play” by having a tiny PRS section. One station, three positions, rimfire.

See?

 

[Rexwagon]

No one? @lowlight is saying so in this very thread. Quote below:

That’s on the national level. If you looked at 1 day matches. Outlaw matches. The numbers of participants is huge!

People cannot afford to travel for all the national level matches. They cannot afford to pay for the ammo. The national level PRs is attracting the ppl who want to compete the most. The national level is attracting the ones who will make it work. That have the drive to figure things out financially to go around the country to shoot.

I think ppl are confusing the series with the the entire grand scheme of PRS shooting. There are thousands of club level matches every year.

The 1 day local matches is where you grow the sport from.

 

[Rexwagon]

And I’m talking about making the local range more fun to “play” by having a tiny PRS section. One station, three positions, rimfire.

See?

Ok. Then talk the fudds into installing some items for you.

Ranges are privately owned. PRS has nothing to do with all the privately owned ranges. If you want your local range to change, then get on the board or petition them to add props or steel. And Godspeed and good luck .

 

[Rexwagon]

No one? @lowlight is saying so in this very thread. Quote below:

One more point I want to make,

May have only been 400-500 that shot 3 plus national level matches. But there were thousands who shot at least one. And 95% of the matches on the series which is about 40 in total were sold out. Many had 180 plus shooters.

 

[carbonbased]

That’s on the national level. If you looked at 1 day matches. Outlaw matches. The numbers of participants is huge!

People cannot afford to travel for all the national level matches. They cannot afford to pay for the ammo. The national level PRs is attracting the ppl who want to compete the most. The national level is attracting the ones who will make it work. That have the drive to figure things out financially to go around the country to shoot.

I think ppl are confusing the series with the the entire grand scheme of PRS shooting. There are thousands of club level matches every year.

The 1 day local matches is where you grow the sport from.

Ok, but what I’m driving at is more people that play, the more people might play in comps, and the more competitors, the more competitors might go national.

My suggestions are about increasing the players to increase the # of national competitors. (Which may not work, but it might).

Ok. Then talk the fudds into installing some items for you.

Ranges are privately owned. PRS has nothing to do with all the privately owned ranges. If you want your local range to change, then get on the board or petition them to add props or steel. And Godspeed and good luck .

You guys are sort of personalizing this. I’m just saying if one wants the sport to thrive, then do something beyond just attending comps and moaning about rules.

Rex, you’ve just replayed the spirit of my suggestions and fed them back to me?

Lots of no, no, no. Get to the yes.

And yes my name is Tony Robbins and I have huge teeth (1:00 mark lol)

 

[lash]

Ok, but what I’m driving at is more people that play, the more people might play in comps, and the more competitors, the more competitors might go national.

My suggestions are about increasing the players to increase the # of national competitors. (Which may not work, but it might).


You guys are sort of personalizing this. I’m just saying if one wants the sport to thrive, then do something beyond just attending comps and moaning about rules.

Rex, you’ve just replayed the spirit of my suggestions and fed them back to me?

Lots of no, no, no. Get to the yes.

And yes my name is Tony Robinson and I have huge teeth (1:00 mark lol)

You don’t know what you don’t know.

 

[Rexwagon]

Ok, but what I’m driving at is more people that play, the more people might play in comps, and the more competitors, the more competitors might go national.

My suggestions are about increasing the players to increase the # of national competitors. (Which may not work, but it might).


You guys are sort of personalizing this. I’m just saying if one wants the sport to thrive, then do something beyond just attending comps and moaning about rules.

Rex, you’ve just replayed the spirit of my suggestions and fed them back to me?

Lots of no, no, no. Get to the yes.

And yes my name is Tony Robinson and I have huge teeth (1:00 mark lol)

You haven’t made a single suggestion.

No one has. Earlier ppl eluded to some factory classifications. That is not what’s stopping ppl.


1 day matches the match directors are open to do a lot of different things. Many do. I’m not sure I know what your wanting.

Also. Lowlight isn’t a PRs member and doesn’t shoot the series as far as I know . He does his own thing. The guardian is its own thing.

 

[carbonbased]

Ok my dudes, lol have at it. I’ve made lots of suggestions on how to increase general participation, but ??? Looks like you’re wanting a rulebook discussion only.

I have no skin in the game. I’ll see myself out.

 

[Mormegil87]

Ok, but what I’m driving at is more people that play, the more people might play in comps, and the more competitors, the more competitors might go national.

My suggestions are about increasing the players to increase the # of national competitors. (Which may not work, but it might).


You guys are sort of personalizing this. I’m just saying if one wants the sport to thrive, then do something beyond just attending comps and moaning about rules.

Rex, you’ve just replayed the spirit of my suggestions and fed them back to me?

Lots of no, no, no. Get to the yes.

And yes my name is Tony Robinson and I have huge teeth (1:00 mark lol)

What you're suggesting is already being by clubs and individuals across the country. Just because you aren't seeing it, doesn't mean it's not out there.

 

[Rexwagon]

Ok my dudes, lol have at it. I’ve made lots of suggestions on how to increase general participation, but ??? Looks like you’re wanting a rulebook discussion only.

I have no skin in the game. I’ll see myself out.

I reached out to you in private to get you started in this. But you, like many on here have a million excuses of why you wont be participating. I gave you times, Location, phone numbers and events for new shooters and even mentors. The rest is on you.

 

[Mormegil87]

I reached out to you in private to get you started in this. But you, like many on here have a million excuses of why you wont be participating. I gave you times, Location, phone numbers and events for new shooters and even mentors. The rest is on you.

Minnesota has a pretty robust club match, with at least one "pro-am" match each year. Troy Tyson, who coincidentally makes the DFAT is instrumental in the sport out there.

Same with Michigan, MTC host MPRC regional and outlaw matches as well as reasonably priced entry level PRS class.

Wisconsin is the same and maybe even more robust, with several clubs throughout the state running everything from .22lr to prone only centerfire matches, to full on regional qualifiers. This is in conjuction with classes and clinics put on by a lot of us experienced shooters. Everything from gear, to ballistic apps to actual shooting clinics.

Illinois and Indian are both doing a lot of what Wisconsin is doing just a year or two behind in development.

 

[Rexwagon]

I think the 22 PRs type scene in Minnesota is huge. One of the largest in the nation. But you have to go past your front door.

@midwestoffroad

 

[carbonbased]

I reached out to you in private to get you started in this. But you, like many on here have a million excuses of why you wont be participating. I gave you times, Location, phone numbers and events for new shooters and even mentors. The rest is on you.

Ah, the curse of interpreting intonation and
meaning via the written word. I am not mad. I am not whinging. I am super happy you passed info to me.

After you passed on the suppressed-only match info, when have I made an excuse?

What I am is a little confused as to why you guys think I’m making excuses? Maybe you've heard certain things so often you’ve lumped me into that bunch.

To be clear:
I did not jump into this thread to say something like, “Wah wah wah if only x, y, x then I would compete.”

I just thought I was being helpful in offering ideas to grow the sport. I thought there was a snowball’s chance in hell for me to ever get involved due to my ears. I mentioned my ear thing only in passing.

Notice that I didn’t learn there might be a occasional suppressed-only match until waaaaaay into the discussion?

Repeat: this is not about me. Not about me. Not about me, my dudes. I am not writing about why I’m not competing and why everything sucks.

I am mystified as to why anyone thinks this?

 

[carbonbased]

Minnesota has a pretty robust club match, with at least one "pro-am" match each year. Troy Tyson, who coincidentally makes the DFAT is instrumental in the sport out there.

Same with Michigan, MTC host MPRC regional and outlaw matches as well as reasonably priced entry level PRS class.

Wisconsin is the same and maybe even more robust, with several clubs throughout the state running everything from .22lr to prone only centerfire matches, to full on regional qualifiers. This is in conjuction with classes and clinics put on by a lot of us experienced shooters. Everything from gear, to ballistic apps to actual shooting clinics.

Illinois and Indian are both doing a lot of what Wisconsin is doing just a year or two behind in development.

Thanks man!

 

[carbonbased]

It has come to my attention that there are a number of undercurrents to this PRS/SH whole thing, of which I was unaware.

This explains why I felt like I had stepped out onto the 24hrs of Le Mans in my bathrobe in a quest to simply cross the street to Dunkin’ Donuts. Zoom holy zoom shit vvvrrooom WTF IM GONNA DIE zoom!

Apologies if I touched a nerve here or there. I didn’t understand the background.

 

[lash]

Shooting is boring to the casual observer.
For various reasons, but they don’t understand what it takes to make a hard shot, and a miss isn’t catastrophic like a nascar pileup is.
Basketball, football, snowboarding or skiing, dirt bikes, and many other sports are a little more understood by the observer, with more clear consequences of a failure or loss. So it seems the entertainment value is a lot higher.
That means viewers.
That means money.

As well, we like shooting, but a day on the ski slopes is a lot more enjoyment for the entire family, and the fudds aren’t there.

But I can’t speak to the rules of each shooting form. Too far for me to make it to any matches anyways.

Who you calling Fudd?

 

[Lowlight]

Random individuals at the local level having success is not being disputed,

There is a ton of individuals banging into each other to "promote" and "grow" their local area, but that is NOT what anyone is talking about.
We know there is a local success because the local groups talk to the shooters and make sure the location is favorable to the area. Duh... it's the locals driving the success.

The problem is there is very little common ground beyond the stages themselves, and honestly, a lot of those are old and stale.

the point was to take the success of the local areas where we see it, and extend it to the larger group so people would have consistency

The National Series and National Matches make all the money and none of that trickles down to the individuals (MD or otherwise) the National Series competes with it's own MDs in terms of asses in the seat. If you have a great local match and it is out of the PRS way, you are golden, now have a MD who wants to branch out and change things up, they won't because they are scared the PRS will turn off their Spigot even though we have plenty of matches filling up with no affiliation as in the locals

The local matches are great, because their success is dependent on doing the work, the National Series not so much, they do nothing but dictate and will make money.

MY QUESTION and MY CHARGE is what do they do for you, and how have they improved the Shooting, Matches, etc, beyond what local matches are already doing ?

I have offered up suggestion after suggestion so suck my dick sideways asshole

 

[Lowlight]

How long has Shannon run the PRS for him to Upgrade and Improve the property at K&M, on top of buying a giant house, cars, big ass boat, etc,

Are you local MDs buying new Boats, and Cars ?

How many hours do you spend on your local event vs the effort the Series provides in return for promoting their cause in your area. What do they do in terms of promotion, match support, etc... all the little things that would so help an MD but never seem to make out your way.

Heck when was the last time you had a new Skill Stage ? Not counting changing KYL to TYL LOL

 

[Yoteski]

All shooting sports are amateur sports. Every last one of them. Even the best shooters in USPSA cannot make a living out of their sponsorship. They have to teach or have real side jobs.

PRS will NOT be the one to make work what no one has ever been able to make work.

Before the PRS came about the National Sporting Clays association tried to launch its PRO series with big payouts, invitationals, etc. It waddled around for 2-3 years then died out of lack of interest, and that was in sporting clays: a shooting sport that has a HUGE amount of grassroots/amateur participation compared to long range rifle. And by that I mean bigger by several orders of magnitude.

This is from 2014: https://www.shotgunlife.com/shotgun...-landmark-broadcast-deal-with-nbc-sports.html

Go click on the PSCA link there.........LOL it's dead.

It's fucking laughable watching this shitshow having the benefit of the hindsight that all this has been done before and always ended in failure.

The only way PRS or any precision rifle sport will ever enjoy a modicum of success beyond being an obscure niche is by following the IPSC/USPSA business model which for all its warts is the most successful non-clay shooting sport in the world.

Trying to make it a "professional" sport is guaranteed to kill it like it has killed every other attempt in other shooting sports.

You missed the point of my post completely. I don't care if a series or shooter is called pro or whatever. I'm saying the format for rewarding shooters is based on a failing model.
We need to have top shooters participating and pushing the limits to grow the sport just as much as we need new shooters. I'm simply saying to quit relying on sponsors to pay the best, which in turn, also hurts promotion at a grassroots level where one day matches get the scraps left over as far as prize tables.

 

[Alpine 338]

Gimmicks like boats, spinners etc should stay at the circus where they belong.

Like it or not the PRS (and NRL when they were competition to PRS) was more about race gun competition than tactical or hunting, which I feel is a good thing. Competitors like to see balance and being challenged by the psychological aspects of the game, the environmental conditions etc, not some BS gimmick. Most competitors want to see the most consistent shooter win, not the guy who got lucky on a gimmick stage.

A friend of mine who is an MD tried making his PRS 2 day match a more tactical type match and attendance plummeted. He tried making it an outlaw match this year and it didn't improve his attendance.

This right here is the reason I don't shoot PRS matches anymore, and many people I know have the same feelings about it.

When I was helping out, putting on matches, I routinely asked new shooters if they enjoyed all the circus prop type stages, and more than half would say absolutely not. I would then ask, why they shoot those kind of matches, and the responses always was, I like to shoot matches, but that's mostly what's offered that's convenient or local for me.

If it's not a true field match, or team match, I'm going to pass on it unless there's some history, or I know the MD, and know that it's not going to be a circus match.

 

[Mormegil87]

This right here is the reason I don't shoot PRS matches anymore, and many people I know have the same feelings about it.

When I was helping out, putting on matches, I routinely asked new shooters if they enjoyed all the circus prop type stages, and more than half would say absolutely not. I would then ask, why they shoot those kind of matches, and the responses always was, I like to shoot matches, but that's mostly what's offered that's convenient or local for me.

If it's not a true field match, or team match, I'm going to pass on it unless there's some history, or I know the MD, and know that it's not going to be a circus match.

The good MDs, have gotten rid of that stuff. I see it pop up at local matches once in awhile but not often

 

[308pirate]

You missed the point of my post completely. I don't care if a series or shooter is called pro or whatever. I'm saying the format for rewarding shooters is based on a failing model.
We need to have top shooters participating and pushing the limits to grow the sport just as much as we need new shooters. I'm simply saying to quit relying on sponsors to pay the best, which in turn, also hurts promotion at a grassroots level where one day matches get the scraps left over as far as prize tables.

Paying anyone anything is the root cause of many problems.

There should be zero cash paid out.

 

[Alpine 338]

Paying anyone anything is the root cause of many problems.

There should be zero cash paid out.

I think a cash payout is a better solution to rewarding the top three shooters, and or offering a trophy over a prize table. I've seen way too much drama, antics, and people acting like children over who got what and what was deserved from the prize table.

 

[Emerson0311]

You can practice everything you need to practice at home with dry fire and at 100yds on paper.

I do all my practice on paper. I need to know exactly where every rnd goes so I can adjust my position when the impacts are not where they should be.

 

[Emerson0311]

I think a cash payout is a better solution to rewarding the top three shooters, and or offering a trophy over a prize table. I've seen way too much drama, antics, and people acting like children over who got what and what was deserved from the prize table.

Prize tables random draw based on match registration. Stop rewarding the shooters using provided equipment to help sales. The only way to actually get equipment sponsorship is to get good without it. If you have it, you don’t need it. If you need it, no one will give it to you.

 

[308pirate]

I think a cash payout is a better solution to rewarding the top three shooters, and or offering a trophy over a prize table. I've seen way too much drama, antics, and people acting like children over who got what and what was deserved from the prize table.

No. No fucking money. At all.

Money encourages cheating and corrupts the sport. It does so everywhere. Why do you think ammo cheating is so prevalent in handicap trap?

 

[Alpine 338]

No. No fucking money. At all.

Money encourages cheating and corrupts the sport. It does so everywhere. Why do you think ammo cheating is so prevalent in handicap trap?

I don't shoot trap, tried it once, and it was a big failure on my part.

I've shot a lot of one day monthly matches, with cash payouts, and it wasn't obvious that there's any cheating. But then again it's only at most $200 for first place. Now I can see if it was a $25K prize, how that would promote some cheating.

 

[Yoteski]

No. No fucking money. At all.

Money encourages cheating and corrupts the sport. It does so everywhere. Why do you think ammo cheating is so prevalent in handicap trap?

It's the same difference with the prize table. What's the difference between a $3k optic or what not or a $3k payout. That's exactly my point.

On the same note, this is why I think a roundtable like Frank had eluded too is so important. Communication between organization owners, match directors, and sponsors is essential to growing the sport. There's plenty of shooters out there getting their match entries and other costs paid already by sponsorships. That's fantastic for them and how it should be. But, do you see why participation is waning and growth in two-day matches is dry? It doesn't take long for new shooters, who are entirely paying their own way to find this out, then they watch the same shooters pull a competitors product off the prize table. That in of itself is pretty cancerous to the sport.

You're not stopping anything that's not already happening by saying you shouldn't pay shooters. I think paying shooters would help the sport be more transparent if anything. I'm not talking crazy money, but doing the math, with a slight increase in match entries, it wouldn't be out of this world to have $5k first place and on down accordingly.

As I said before, how hard is it to register as a pro or and am, or call them whatever you choose. Pros shoot for $ and Ams shoot for the prize table, in a random draw fashion, or some other method that makes it more inviting.

 

[mahlv]

The most important currency traded and fought for, especially in the current day and age of the internet(more specifically social media), is EGO. There are plenty of solid mofos that I've come across in my limited experience in competition rifle shooting out west here, likewise I've encountered some colossal douche bags too. The solid guys are just that... honest, hardworking, selfless, competitive, driven, and sharp as fuck. The most colossal douches have all of those same qualities, except it's not enough for them, they need to bolster up their ego with half truths and transparent-as-fuck-flat-out-lies and childish tendencies to boohoo about what they think they deserve. Guys that cry with their podcast buddies about how they just won a match, but the 72nd place shooter got a new AI rifle donated by Mile High and its not fair. Same guy blabs about his OIL Elk tag in Nevada and how the local guides ruined his hunt and he had to settle for a 380 bull. Said bull was killed within 15minutes from his hotel room, but portrayed as this big diy public land epic saga. Fuckin please. Then other top guys flag the fuck out of myself and squadmates in a national championship match in clear view of several other squads, there was a deafening silence for all of 2 seconds while we all looked at each other like WTF. Now I'll own that I was just as much a big sloppy pussy like everyone else in that instance, in that I didn't speak up, but dayum! That was my 1st year of chasing the bigger matches, and I knew enough to know this guy was a top 5 guy, and that the end of the rifle pointing at me was the bad end, but ya I was a bitch in that moment.
I have been just a spot filler, have ran many 22lr matches, helped with other disciplines, and am long past any hope of podium glory lol, but the bullshit bullying of the prs over any other entity that dares to think they deserve to breathe the same air as them is a real groaner for me and fuck them imo. My money makes my vote, and at this point and time it's essentially local matches and maybe a hunting match within striking distance.
See, even my godam ego won't let me just troll this post. I'll probably regret it but oh well.

 

[Dot3]

This right here is the reason I don't shoot PRS matches anymore, and many people I know have the same feelings about it.

When I was helping out, putting on matches, I routinely asked new shooters if they enjoyed all the circus prop type stages, and more than half would say absolutely not. I would then ask, why they shoot those kind of matches, and the responses always was, I like to shoot matches, but that's mostly what's offered that's convenient or local for me.

If it's not a true field match, or team match, I'm going to pass on it unless there's some history, or I know the MD, and know that it's not going to be a circus match.

Well shit. If I was an MD, I would absolutely have a stage where your ass had to be on the jon. That would have a TREMENDOUS amount of practical carryover to the way some of the folks in my AO hunt

 

[308pirate]

It's the same difference with the prize table. What's the difference between a $3k optic or what not or a $3k payout. That's exactly my point.

On the same note, this is why I think a roundtable like Frank had eluded too is so important. Communication between organization owners, match directors, and sponsors is essential to growing the sport. There's plenty of shooters out there getting their match entries and other costs paid already by sponsorships. That's fantastic for them and how it should be. But, do you see why participation is waning and growth in two-day matches is dry? It doesn't take long for new shooters, who are entirely paying their own way to find this out, then they watch the same shooters pull a competitors product off the prize table. That in of itself is pretty cancerous to the sport.

You're not stopping anything that's not already happening by saying you shouldn't pay shooters. I think paying shooters would help the sport be more transparent if anything. I'm not talking crazy money, but doing the math, with a slight increase in match entries, it wouldn't be out of this world to have $5k first place and on down accordingly.

As I said before, how hard is it to register as a pro or and am, or call them whatever you choose. Pros shoot for $ and Ams shoot for the prize table, in a random draw fashion, or some other method that makes it more inviting.

Did you miss the part that other sports have tried that same exact business model and failed?

But nooooo........THIS time, WE will get it right.

 

[Yoteski]

Did you miss the part that other sports have tried that same exact business model and failed?

But nooooo........THIS time, WE will get it right.

Okay, so what's your solution? It's not working right now, so your suggestion is to stay status quo?

 

[Yoteski]

In the end, this is all an exercise in futility anyhow. I've said it several times before, I vote with my checkbook and also attempt to grow the sport at the grassroots level. Super excited the hide cup will be in Nebraska this year, just sad it's the last one.....

 

[308pirate]

Okay, so what's your solution? It's not working right now, so your suggestion is to stay status quo?

I've posted them in other threads here. Not gonna rehash it.

 

[Cjwise5]

PRS numbers are flat and dying, the stats are public, and someone is even nice enough to collate the data into easy-to-read spreadsheets, look it up.

The matches out west are far more fun and growing because it's difficult and more practical, wind actually matters.
I received a Text this morning from an East Coast PRS-style shooter who shot his first Competition Dynamics Steel Safari, and he said, the skills from PRS did not translate like he thought they would,

View attachment 7978505

Sure PRS people back east don't complain; they learned the answer is fuck off; nothing changes in PRS, they have been conditioned to accept mediocrity as the only choice in town.

see the difference here, I was here in the beginning, early, the early 2000s, and managed this thing until the PRS showed up, watched them fumble, and fumble, and fumble for how many years now? Their success is by accident.

People want a change, it's clear, only the uneducated, first-time users think it's working.

Hey I resemble this remark…
Firstly let me say that Missouri is not East Coast LOL.
Seriously had my eyes opened with this match. The natural terrain proved to be way more challenging and fun than any of the man-made barricades in PRS matches. By far the two most difficult things for me were finding the targets and then quickly figuring out the best position to engage the targets. The boys at Competition Dynamics do intentionally choose difficult positions, but that’s a known thing and just part of the game.

PRS has definitely soured in my mind because I’m tired of solving every single problem with the same piece of equipment….no matter the prop or barricade, the answer is a gamechanger bag. #boring
At this point I’m not sure if simply changing the classes or rules to weights and barrel lengths would be enough to make me come back to PRS matches. Personally I’m just sick of the costs, the drama, the super squads, etc.

Man versus the terrain. Man versus the wind. Man versus himself. These are way more attractive to me at this point. Team sniper matches and field matches like CD or NRL Hunter is the new hotness. It’s simply a better test of a well rounded shooter in my opinion. First time ever shooting Team Safari…used my gamechanger on a rock exactly one time in three days of competition. #notboring