Newbie needs help with build

[Snip-er]

Hey everyone! New to the site. Looking to get some advice from some of you with experience in doing a easy build. I am not looking to spend a lot of money. I have to much money invested in my weapons as it is. I'm looking to keep the budget under a $1000 and honestly, if I can do it for less than that, which I understand I should be able to for what I'm looking to do, that would be great.

Here's what I'm looking to do....

- I'm looking to just do some range shooting and some shooting at some friends house for fun. Just plinking and having fun seeing how well I can shoot and do some groupings between 100 and say 500-600 yards. Not sure I can find anywhere else I can go around where I live that I could reach out farther, but if I could put a Rig together that could possibly reach out to a 1000 that would be awesome with my budget.

- I have done some research and found something as follows for a Rig to put together that wouldn't cost that much to put together. As follows for example... Ruger American Predator chambered in 6.5 creedmore, Vortex 3-9x Diamond back Tactical, Viper Rings, using Hornaday 140 gr ELD-M ammo. I understand that ammo is just as important for accuracy as everything else. From what I've seen this setup can actually reach out to a mile and supposedly it was done. But if it could do what I'm looking to do, what do you guys thing about this set up?

- With the above said, I'm not having to do the 6.5 creedmore, but I know that this is a very good round for long range shooting and accuracy.

- So, could I have fun with what I'm looking to do and maybe less expensive in say a .243 or .308, or 30-06, or anything other chambered round you all think would work within my budget and specs I'm looking to do.

I think you guys can see where I'm going with this. I am a hand gun and AR 15 guy because of my Infantry background, but I really would like to get in to some long range shooting for fun without breaking the bank, so any advice for you on here that would like to have fun helping me put something together would be great.

I appreciate all and any help for a rookie looking to have some fun.

 

[Cowcatcher]

I think you will want to get a lil more than a 3-9x scope.

 

[steve123]

You can use almost any normal bottleneck cartridge to that distance. What it comes down to is enduring recoil and/or dealing with the extra wind drift of some of them. 223 with 69-80 grain bullets will be very pleasant to shoot and provide some challenge in the wind and it's relatively cheap to shoot. Very good barrel life too.

224 Valkyrie is coming out here in a few months which would turn your AR into a great platform for those distances. Buy a premium barrel, bolt, etc and it will likely outshoot a RAP by a good margin. A .56 BC at 2700 fps isn't bad at all and the recoil won't be much more than a 223.

6.5 Creed is one of the best choices because it doesn't kick a bunch and has a good combination of BC and speed which means it won't blow a huge amount in the wind.

A 243 will work great too but it isn't known for good barrel life.

Except for the crappy stock, mostly the forend flex, I like those RAP's.

For bigger calibers plan on buying a muzzle brake for extended recreational shooting.

Look at the Athlon Talos BTR 4-14x44.

 

[Snip-er]

Steve, am I to assume by your reply that the 224 Valkyrie will run though my AR? Also, what would you consider for a premium barrel for the AR? Also what is the .56 BC? sorry for my ingorance.

 

[Snip-er]

Cow Catcher, what scope would you recommend without breaking the bank?

 

[gtrmechanic]

Hi "Snip-er"!! I'm also new to the forum, also a pistol and AR guy from a law enforcement background. I'm also putting together a 'budget' rig for basically the same distances. I went with the Thompson Centerfire Compass in .308 . It was on sale for $274.95 with a $75 mail-in rebate. If the gun sucks I'll be able to get my money back out of it. I went with a 6-25x56 Millett LRS scope. The down side to this piece is the 35mm tube size. Its odd and finding lower rings has been a challenge ( read that as expensive compared to the price of the rifle itself). The gun came factory wit a 2 piece scope base already installed. I found a one piece picatinny style base for $39 from EGW. The scope was just south of $500. I have a Millett TRS 4-16x50 on a AR I built and I really like that one, so I figured I'd give the LRS a try. The budget just wouldn't allow for the Sig Sauer Tango 4 or the Vortex.. I'm really trying to see what I can get out of this budget rig. I haven't gotten to shoot it yet, so its still a mystery to me at this point.

 

[Cowcatcher]

Cow Catcher, what scope would you recommend without breaking the bank?

I'm by far no expert but I would get all you can afford. I've heard it said its hard to outshoot your rifle but pretty easy to outshoot your glass. A couple years ago I would not consider buying a used optic. That's changed, a few companies have lifetime warranties that transfer with the scope.

 

[Snip-er]

Hi "Snip-er"!! I'm also new to the forum, also a pistol and AR guy from a law enforcement background. I'm also putting together a 'budget' rig for basically the same distances. I went with the Thompson Centerfire Compass in .308 . It was on sale for $274.95 with a $75 mail-in rebate. If the gun sucks I'll be able to get my money back out of it. I went with a 6-25x56 Millett LRS scope. The down side to this piece is the 35mm tube size. Its odd and finding lower rings has been a challenge ( read that as expensive compared to the price of the rifle itself). The gun came factory wit a 2 piece scope base already installed. I found a one piece picatinny style base for $39 from EGW. The scope was just south of $500. I have a Millett TRS 4-16x50 on a AR I built and I really like that one, so I figured I'd give the LRS a try. The budget just wouldn't allow for the Sig Sauer Tango 4 or the Vortex.. I'm really trying to see what I can get out of this budget rig. I haven't gotten to shoot it yet, so its still a mystery to me at this point.

GTRMechanic, can you post a pic of your rig for me? Also, do you have a final price for everything? Just curious as to why you didn't go the 6.5 Creedmore route? Thanks for the info you did for your build Pretty much what I'm looking to do.

 

[jg6.5]

You can use almost any normal bottleneck cartridge to that distance. What it comes down to is enduring recoil and/or dealing with the extra wind drift of some of them. 223 with 69-80 grain bullets will be very pleasant to shoot and provide some challenge in the wind and it's relatively cheap to shoot. Very good barrel life too.

224 Valkyrie is coming out here in a few months which would turn your AR into a great platform for those distances. Buy a premium barrel, bolt, etc and it will likely outshoot a RAP by a good margin. A .56 BC at 2700 fps isn't bad at all and the recoil won't be much more than a 223.

6.5 Creed is one of the best choices because it doesn't kick a bunch and has a good combination of BC and speed which means it won't blow a huge amount in the wind.

A 243 will work great too but it isn't known for good barrel life.

Except for the crappy stock, mostly the forend flex, I like those RAP's.

For bigger calibers plan on buying a muzzle brake for extended recreational shooting.

Look at the Athlon Talos BTR 4-14x44.

x2. Also echoing Cowcatcher's post on scopes. I'd troll around on here for a bit and see what you find before ordering one from a retailer. You don't necessarily have to spend $2500+ on the top end manufacturers, but I think most everyone on here would recommend spending a little more than you'd like on a scope. You're on the right track with Vortex, lots of folks have really good luck with them and their customer service is great if you for some reason you have to make use of their warranty. Their HS-T 4-16x44 with a VMR-1 reticle or HS 4-16x50 would be decent choices for the price (not crazy about the BDC reticle on the HS, but I'm sure you could make it work). Also I've heard good things about Athlon, mentioned above, but I don't have any first hand experience with them.

 

[EddieE]

Cow Catcher, what scope would you recommend without breaking the bank?

I guess depends on how you define breaking the bank. For my 223 tikka I went with a Mueller 8-32x44. It's a good lowend scope. There is a guy selling them on ebay for around $175, these are factory refurbished, with full warranty. Up to about 20x mag, it is great. Anything higher, I find it to start getting blurry. Around the $600-800 I would seriously look at the Athlon Ares. At around $1700 consider the Athlon Cronus or a lightly used Vortex Gen II Razor (selling now around $1850-1900 on this site).

Was talking to a guy at the range and conversation went to spending $ on gun vs scope. Seems like even a $400 gun these days can do sub MOA. Speaking loosely, there is very little to be gained from spending $3k on a gun. Of course the fit/finish, stock, etc will be better. But accuracy wise, I don't think it is going to be better (or that much better to warrant the spend). With scopes, there is a huge difference between a $200 scope and a $600 scope or a $1500 scope...you see where I'm going with this. I think once you get into $2500 scopes, there is little difference between them vs. $4000. By all accounts, the Razor Gen II is a heck of a scope. Is the next step up from that, going to be that much better???? I don't know and likely I will never find out.

 

[steve123]

Steve, am I to assume by your reply that the 224 Valkyrie will run though my AR? Also, what would you consider for a premium barrel for the AR? Also what is the .56 BC? sorry for my ingorance.

Yep 224V was designed to be mag fed in an AR.

Krieger, Bartlein, Mullerworks, are three of the best premium barrels.

BC stands for "ballistic coefficient", basically the higher the number the less drop and wind drift a bullet gives.

There's different drag models to rate BC, I'm using G1, .5 is getting reasonable, .6 is good, .7 is very good. But BC is velocity dependant so the bullet needs to be driven fairly fast, for the heavier and higher BC bullets for caliber, 2500 fps is a decent start, 2750 fps is about normal for most cartridges, and 3000 is getting on the fast side.

If you go to an online ballistic calculator like JBM you can input different BC's and velocities to show how well each bullet does at different distances. For instance, see how poorly a 168SMK 308/2650fps/.46BC does compared to a 142SMK 6.5Creed/2800fps/.62BC, in the wind at 600y. Of course you can find higher BC bullets for 308 but they'll usually be heavier and thus slower which can somewhat negate the higher BC.

So 224V will drop less, blow less in the wind, and recoil much less, than 308 with the 168SMK if comparing them in same barrel length.

The BC's and the fps/speed are averages I used for an example. Any cartridge can be loaded lighter/slower or hotter/faster and there are tons of different bullets per caliber that can be used/ all with different BC's.

 

[308220]

For a scope, I cant recommend the SWFA fixed 10x enough. Great scope. Tracks perfectly. Built like a tank. Can find them for under $300 new.

As for the cartridge....6.5 CM, or a 308 will get you where you want to go with plenty of factory ammo offerings. Id shy awy from a 223. Because one day you may want to shoot something that breaths.

 

[Cowcatcher]

I think the most important advice is, when you are on a budget build, don't get in a hurry. I hate when I rush and buy something just to find I don't like it or I could have gotten more bang for the buck. Or in this case, better vision for the buck. I cannot give you real valuable info on scopes between 200 and 1100 because I just jumped that category lol. I am sure there are several scopes in there that will suit you Im sure. If your build budget is $1k tops and you are considering the RAP in 6.5 (which I think will suit you) the stocks are kinda flimsy but I've heard aftermarket stocks are coming out. You could add one later perhaps. So, the RAP should cost around $400. That leaves you with $600 for glass, rings and other accessories you may want. If you want bipods etc, do you need to buy them in this budget? Maybe you can shoot off a bag or....... until you get more froghides stacked. If you want to shoot around 500yds I think the 9x will leave you wishing for more. Maybe not. Have you looked through a scope at a target the size you will be shooting at 500yds with 9x? Glass and manufacturers play a big role in what one 9x looks like compared to another 9x. I would probably look at a 4-16x. I was gonna buy a used Vortex 4-16x44 diamondback hp with rings, flip ups and level on it for $225 but someone beat me to it. Dang it! Anyhow, that setup in total was around $450 new. Just that scope was $359. Now, I had no experience with that particular model but, I think from what I've seen from other Vortexs I and friends have, it would have been nice for what you are doing. I'm just trying to give you an example of getting a lil more optic with a lil less money and some patient exploring of the classifieds. Plus, with Vortex and a few others, you get the same lifetime warranty the original purchaser had. This got long but I hope it has at least one sentence of value.

 

[Snip-er]

Yep 224V was designed to be mag fed in an AR.

Krieger, Bartlein, Mullerworks, are three of the best premium barrels.

BC stands for "ballistic coefficient", basically the higher the number the less drop and wind drift a bullet gives.

There's different drag models to rate BC, I'm using G1, .5 is getting reasonable, .6 is good, .7 is very good. But BC is velocity dependant so the bullet needs to be driven fairly fast, for the heavier and higher BC bullets for caliber, 2500 fps is a decent start, 2750 fps is about normal for most cartridges, and 3000 is getting on the fast side.

If you go to an online ballistic calculator like JBM you can input different BC's and velocities to show how well each bullet does at different distances. For instance, see how poorly a 168SMK 308/2650fps/.46BC does compared to a 142SMK 6.5Creed/2800fps/.62BC, in the wind at 600y. Of course you can find higher BC bullets for 308 but they'll usually be heavier and thus slower which can somewhat negate the higher BC.

So 224V will drop less, blow less in the wind, and recoil much less, than 308 with the 168SMK if comparing them in same barrel length.

The BC's and the fps/speed are averages I used for an example. Any cartridge can be loaded lighter/slower or hotter/faster and there are tons of different bullets per caliber that can be used/ all with different BC's.

Ok Steve, I just want to confirm, I CAN run a 224V through my stock AR15 Barrel? I don't have to change the barrel? The 224V will fit in my 223-556 upper as well and feed and shoot? Is this what your your saying? Would I have to make any changes to my AR to run the 224V?

 

[Snip-er]

I think the most important advice is, when you are on a budget build, don't get in a hurry. I hate when I rush and buy something just to find I don't like it or I could have gotten more bang for the buck. Or in this case, better vision for the buck. I cannot give you real valuable info on scopes between 200 and 1100 because I just jumped that category lol. I am sure there are several scopes in there that will suit you Im sure. If your build budget is $1k tops and you are considering the RAP in 6.5 (which I think will suit you) the stocks are kinda flimsy but I've heard aftermarket stocks are coming out. You could add one later perhaps. So, the RAP should cost around $400. That leaves you with $600 for glass, rings and other accessories you may want. If you want bipods etc, do you need to buy them in this budget? Maybe you can shoot off a bag or....... until you get more froghides stacked. If you want to shoot around 500yds I think the 9x will leave you wishing for more. Maybe not. Have you looked through a scope at a target the size you will be shooting at 500yds with 9x? Glass and manufacturers play a big role in what one 9x looks like compared to another 9x. I would probably look at a 4-16x. I was gonna buy a used Vortex 4-16x44 diamondback hp with rings, flip ups and level on it for $225 but someone beat me to it. Dang it! Anyhow, that setup in total was around $450 new. Just that scope was $359. Now, I had no experience with that particular model but, I think from what I've seen from other Vortexs I and friends have, it would have been nice for what you are doing. I'm just trying to give you an example of getting a lil more optic with a lil less money and some patient exploring of the classifieds. Plus, with Vortex and a few others, you get the same lifetime warranty the original purchaser had. This got long but I hope it has at least one sentence of value.

Yes, very helpful. Thanks for that reply. Not long winded at all. I love to read and learn from others what I don't know. I appreciate the info.

 

[Snip-er]

For a scope, I cant recommend the SWFA fixed 10x enough. Great scope. Tracks perfectly. Built like a tank. Can find them for under $300 new.

As for the cartridge....6.5 CM, or a 308 will get you where you want to go with plenty of factory ammo offerings. Id shy awy from a 223. Because one day you may want to shoot something that breaths.

Karma, for a fixed 10x, how will that scope work say if I go to a indoor range that is only 50 yards or an outdoor range that only has a 100? Will that fixed 10x be to much for close range?

 

[308220]

Karma, for a fixed 10x, how will that scope work say if I go to a indoor range that is only 50 yards or an outdoor range that only has a 100? Will that fixed 10x be to much for close range?

In short, no. I have a 3-15x SWFA and I keep my scope on 10x 99% of the time. I even use the 10x setting at 50 yards when I get my rifle back on paper after adjusting something. Just shoot at small dots (half inch) if youre limited to a 50 yard range.

 

[platella]

"Ok Steve, I just want to confirm, I CAN run a 224V through my stock AR15 Barrel? I don't have to change the barrel? The 224V will fit in my 223-556 upper as well and feed and shoot? Is this what your your saying? Would I have to make any changes to my AR to run the 224V?"

Different bolt, barrel and magazines.

 

[steve123]

"Ok Steve, I just want to confirm, I CAN run a 224V through my stock AR15 Barrel? I don't have to change the barrel? The 224V will fit in my 223-556 upper as well and feed and shoot? Is this what your your saying? Would I have to make any changes to my AR to run the 224V?"

Different bolt, barrel and magazines.

Correct.

I imagine you'll still want a 223 upper and changing back and forth from 223 to 224V would be a pain(just barrels I mean), so just get a complete 224V upper along with some 6.8SPC mags.

 

[gtrmechanic]

GTRMechanic, can you post a pic of your rig for me? Also, do you have a final price for everything? Just curious as to why you didn't go the 6.5 Creedmore route? Thanks for the info you did for your build Pretty much what I'm looking to do.

I decided to go with the .308 because a good friend of mine ( who is active LEO / sniper ) is using .308 . We can trade reloading supplies back and forth if needed. He also has been cooking up a couple of different loads over the past 2 years, so why re-invent the wheel..? He comes to me for .223 recipes.
There have been a lot of good suggestions for optics in the various replies. If you can spend the cash, go with the Vortex ( GREAT warranty ). I was purely trying to stay within a VERY tight self imposed budget. I saw numerous optics out there that would have fit the need, and the feature set I wanted, but they exceeded what I was willing to put out for this particular rig.
The only pics I have are when I unboxed the rifle, and one shot of it mocked up with the factory supplied 'high' scope rings that are like stilts...LOL!
Project Cost:
TC/ Compass .308 = $274.95 ( less $75 mail-in rebate) --- Net cost= $199.95
Millett 6-25x56 LRS optic = $478.97 including shipping from Optics Planet
One piece 20MOA picatinny style base = $39 + shpg from EGW
I still have not ordered the rings. Christmas snuck up on me. Its either going to be TPS rings or Vortex prices run between $129 and $149 / set.
Once everything is here, I should still be under $880!

** Before everyone FREAKS out about the view through the glass, the gun was completely empty and the removable magazine was out... **
The blur at the top of the view is a reflection from the door handle on the front door of my shop. The doorway in the sight picture is about 200 yards away.

 

[Snip-er]

gtrmechanic, thanks for all that info. I appreciate it. I like what you have going on. Couple more quick questions, How does that TC shoot? Do you like it? Does it seem cheaply made with the stock? Also, the scope, does that mean it goes from 6 times magnified to 25 times magnified? Thanks

 

[SuperSneakySniper]

The Ruger Predator is not a bad choice, the Thompson is a great idea too! Just to make things super clear, you can NOT use a stock 5.56/.223 barrel for .224 Valkyrie. You need a new barrel, bolt, and magazine i think.

As for scopes i always recomend the Primary Arms 4-14 FFP Mildot or RGrid scope. Ive have good luck with them on budget builds. If its going to see rougher use, or if you need it to track more reliably, id get the SWFA Super Sniper scope for like $275-$300 bucks. 10x or 12x will work great for you! But you give up adjustable magnification for dependability, which depending on your preference may be a good/bad thing.

I think your caliber choices are great, 6.5 is solid, and if you hop on the .224 Valkyrie train, im sure that would be a fun ride too (im planning on a .224 build soon).

 

[Cowcatcher]

Also, the scope, does that mean it goes from 6 times magnified to 25 times magnified? Thanks

Yep

 

[K9Bug]

Just seeing this post now but here is my budget setup. Ruger American Predator 6.5, Ruger RPR stock and bolt handle, MDT LSS Gen2 Chassis and Ergo grip. Optic is Athlon Ares. Shot .76 MOA @ 100 yards with factory Hornady 120 AMAX.

 

[gtrmechanic]

gtrmechanic, thanks for all that info. I appreciate it. I like what you have going on. Couple more quick questions, How does that TC shoot? Do you like it? Does it seem cheaply made with the stock? Also, the scope, does that mean it goes from 6 times magnified to 25 times magnified? Thanks

Thanks! Between the weather and work, I haven't had the chance to shoot it yet. The stock is not the highest quality, but remember the gun was only $200. All things being equal, its decent enough. Yes, the scope is variable from 6x to 25x magnification.

 

[Snip-er]

Thanks! Between the weather and work, I haven't had the chance to shoot it yet. The stock is not the highest quality, but remember the gun was only $200. All things being equal, its decent enough. Yes, the scope is variable from 6x to 25x magnification.

So, just curious, why go with a 6 to 25 magnification scope? What is the reasoning? I haven't seen one with that much variation in it, but then again, I haven't looked that hard. Does it take away from the quality of the magnification compared to say a 4x12? Just curious why such a huge gap.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Looks like you already went ahead and made your purchase, congrats! I'm late to this thread, but I would have recommended checking out the cost of reloading components, particularly bullets. As I have gotten older, I have a new found fondness for .223. I shoot suppressed and the recoil is very minor (grin inducing minor). The cost of 69 grain Sierra Matchkings is reasonable (comparatively speaking, 6mm, 6.5mm, .308). I have a good stock of reloading supplies and I look at what I paid for 168gr Sierra Matchkings years ago and it's less than what I can buy 69gr Matchkings for now. It is true that .223 is not a good round to hunt with for larger than prairie dogs/rock chucks. I do also shoot 6 x47 Lapua and .308, but my go to is my .223. Also, If your chambering is high quality, you can neck re-size only, which will save you a lot of money on brass. I use only Lapua brass and I can easily get 15 reloads out of my .308 Lapua brass. I think I toss it at about 20 reloads. I could probably go more, but by that point, the value that I have gotten from the brass has long since paid for itself. .308 Lapua starts off @ $0.75/round. By the time I'm done (20 reloads), it's cost is $0.0375 (3 and 3/4's cents/round). I've more than gotten my money's worth.

Best of luck and enjoy!

 

[Snip-er]

Looks like you already went ahead and made your purchase, congrats! I'm late to this thread, but I would have recommended checking out the cost of reloading components, particularly bullets. As I have gotten older, I have a new found fondness for .223. I shoot suppressed and the recoil is very minor (grin inducing minor). The cost of 69 grain Sierra Matchkings is reasonable (comparatively speaking, 6mm, 6.5mm, .308). I have a good stock of reloading supplies and I look at what I paid for 168gr Sierra Matchkings years ago and it's less than what I can buy 69gr Matchkings for now. It is true that .223 is not a good round to hunt with for larger than prairie dogs/rock chucks. I do also shoot 6 x47 Lapua and .308, but my go to is my .223. Also, If your chambering is high quality, you can neck re-size only, which will save you a lot of money on brass. I use only Lapua brass and I can easily get 15 reloads out of my .308 Lapua brass. I think I toss it at about 20 reloads. I could probably go more, but by that point, the value that I have gotten from the brass has long since paid for itself. .308 Lapua starts off @ $0.75/round. By the time I'm done (20 reloads), it's cost is $0.0375 (3 and 3/4's cents/round). I've more than gotten my money's worth.

Best of luck and enjoy!

Threadcutter, I haven't made my purchase yet. Still debating what direction I want to go. Soon though soon. Is your .223 platform and AR 15 or bolt action? Also I have never done reloads, don't have the equipment, but once I do the build, would be something I would possibly look to do. Is it hard to do? I know if you don't get it right, obviously you can have issues. Roughly how much is the equipment?

 

[Threadcutter308]

Hi there,

Most of my shooting is with my bolt guns. I do have a Colt HBAR Sporter, but it has been gathering dust in the safe for a long time. I'm not interested in selling it.

Really, reloading is not hard to do, but there is a learning curve. The biggest mistake I made was to go out and buy all the trinkets and bling, progressive press, for multiple calibers. For someone new to reloading, I would suggest staying with a single caliber and starting on (exactly) .223. It's a pretty forgiving round, reloading components and equipment don't cost an arm and a leg. As far as costs, I have a real hard time on that because as I said, I succumbed to the temptation of buying "all the shiny lures" (fisherman's analogy). There's too much to cover in an e-mail chain (I'm lazy......), but I would be happy to discuss off line, if you're interested. Others have suggested the Berger Bullets reloading manual and would would concur. I would suggest that you purchase it, read it and then make your decisions about what equipment to buy.

 

[gtrmechanic]

So, just curious, why go with a 6 to 25 magnification scope? What is the reasoning? I haven't seen one with that much variation in it, but then again, I haven't looked that hard. Does it take away from the quality of the magnification compared to say a 4x12? Just curious why such a huge gap.

Obviously the field of view is going to be smaller at 25x than it would be at 12x, but if the scope is built well you won't really notice any decrease in quality of the sight picture. I went with the 25x for 2 reasons. #1 I'm 54 years old now, and my eyes just aren't what they used to be. #2 If the gun shoots well, I may want to stretch out the distances that I'll be shooting.....again refer back to #1...LOL!!
I always try to think ahead so I only have to buy stuff one time (buy once, cry once). I'd rather buy something that is just a bit of overkill and not need it. It really sucks when you do need it and you don't have it.

 

[Snip-er]

Gtrmechanic, i agree with your whole statement and I'm kinda leaning that way myself. Thanks for your input.