Next step in accuracy

[jaym_100]

I resize, trim, debur and load my brass. What are the next steps I should take in reloading to increase accuracy. I am stuck between primer pocket uniforming, neck turing and meplat uniforming. I would like to get to all of these eventually, but I would like to pick one or 2 to spend money on right now. Which one will help the most? I am shooting a Rem 5r 308 if that makes a difference.

 

[Ol' RD]

Re: Next step in accuracy

I go with option "D" None of the above.


Trigger time, lots of it. Most dialed in Rifle/load combos out shoot the guy behind the rifle.

 

[sermonator]

Re: Next step in accuracy

I have way more experience in varmint rifles than in true sniper rifles, but the only thing I do more than you are is uniform the primer pockets, sort out the very heavy or light cases, and keep an eye on bullet runout. Beyond this, I'm not sure that anything but a really custom rifle would notice the difference in the additional processes you are suggesting.

 

[criz123]

Re: Next step in accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Robot Doc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I go with option "D" None of the above.


Trigger time, lots of it. Most dialed in Rifle/load combos out shoot the guy behind the rifle. </div></div>


+1

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Next step in accuracy

Uniform the primer pockets and Deburr the flash hole, let me suggest Sinclairs uniformer and Gen 2 flash hole deburr tools, they are IMHO a cut above the rest, knowing how much or little run out you have can also help you improve or ID where run out is coming from, bullet seating by ojive length is another area where improvements can be found.

 

[TDaly25]

Re: Next step in accuracy

If you have not done so I would measure the OAL of your specific chamber and find the optimal seating depth for the bullet you shoot. Jumping .010" to lands has consistently provided the best results for me across a range of rifles.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Next step in accuracy

I agree with .010 but in a production rifle that is not possible and still be able to feed out of the mag

 

[Clark]

Re: Next step in accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jaym_100</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I resize, trim, debur and load my brass. What are the next steps I should take in reloading to increase accuracy. I am stuck between primer pocket uniforming, neck turing and meplat uniforming. I would like to get to all of these eventually, but I would like to pick one or 2 to spend money on right now. Which one will help the most? I am shooting a Rem 5r 308 if that makes a difference. </div></div>
There is no obvious succession of steps to accuracy that takes into account all the things you have already done right.
If you are a putz like me, and want your 3" rifles to be 1/2" rifles, I can help.
If you are hot, and want to turn you 0.5" rifles into 0.1" rifles, you should ignore me.
My schpeal:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Big effect on accuracy
1) shoot when there is no wind
2) get a high power scope
3) practice dry firing and keeping cross hairs on bullseye
4) clean out Copper fouling in bore
5) good bullets
6) No expander ball use
7) jam bullet into lands
8) heavy gun and light bullet
9) float the barrel
10) keep barrel cool
11) expensive bull barrels
12) make sure scope mounts are tight to receiver

Little or no effect on accuracy
1) True the action face
2) true the inner C ring
3) lap the lugs
4) true the bolt face
5) chase the threads
6) speed up the lock time
7) glass bed the action
8) pillar bed the action
9) get a 1 ounce trigger
10) turn the case necks
11) weigh the brass
12) de burr the flash holes
13) weigh each powder charge
14) try different powders
15) use benchrest primers
16) lap the scope rings.
17) Dial in bore when chambering
18) re crown the muzzle
</div></div>

 

[vman]

Re: Next step in accuracy

Standard brass prep aside (making sure they are good as they can get) and under the assumption that the shooter knows what hes doing and does his part, I believe the following will give the best accuracy

- Load development to discover node determined by low vertical spread, consistent MV and in turn low ES/SD over a chrony
- Shoot match grade projectiles
- Determine a seating depth you are happy with... I kiss the lands
- Make sure your dies are setup properly to ensure safety, maximum brass life and little working on the brass

The next step after that would be to involve yourself in the following activities
- Minimuse runout and load concentric ammo
- Learn how to anneal properly and safely. In all cases this keeps neck tension relatively consistent and provided the brass is good is more beneficial than neck turning, especially in a factory chamber.

Meplat uniforming is a very very small change overall and is really only evident in world class shooters at long range (1000 yards)

 

[mdesign]

Re: Next step in accuracy

I would watch loaded case run-out and learn what matters to keep it under .002. Things like brass quality, die setup and neck tension will likely come up.

Next work with powder charge/seating depth using some sort of structured test method like OCW. This will give you trigger time which always helps to.

 

[dar1246]

Re: Next step in accuracy

It will depend on how far into the rabbit hole you look. Benchrest guys take it to the extreme. But with great success. In tactical, I think there is a limit to how much time is spent on loading vs. trigger time.
In tactical work a good load up and run with it. 600 yards you can get good groups with not much effort in loading. 1000 yards you need to do more sorting of bullets and kinda of follow what the benchrest crowd does. They are successful in load development.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Next step in accuracy

If your rifle has a standard SAAMI chamber specification, neck turning (and maybe concentricity work) are probably not going to yield much benefit.

Primer flash hole reaming/deburring is worth the effort, primer pocket uniforming, maybe not so much.

Bullet jump is about being sure they either all jump or all don't jump. Mine do.

Uniform neck tension is pretty important to consistent POI. Less is better than more, as long as the rounds will feed without bullets getting set back.

I weigh each charge.

There's a lot of interest in applying BR type ammunition crafting techniques to tactical and fullbore shooting. I don't think that makes best sense.

First, because when we shoot for real, we seldom use a rest; and like it or not, that makes a lot of the more intensely anal handloading perfections kinda pointless.

Secondly, those perfections all add up; but even added up, their impact is probably lost in the 'white noise' of environmental inconsistencies that essentially erect an accuracy barrier at somewhere around 1MOA and 1/2MOA. IMHO, this makes the benefit of their diligent application a tossup.

My suggestion is to do the more basic steps consistently and well, and give the brass an even break. The less you do to it, the less it work hardens, and that's the real root of inaccuracy. Trying to get more than 4-6 loadings is pushing your luck, IMHO.

Greg

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Next step in accuracy

Greg makes good points, both on the technical front and the philosophical one.

Neck turning isn't going to do as much for you running a factory chamber with a throat like a greek whore as it is the benchrest guys with super tight tolerances. Also, I don't know what distances you're typically shooting at but metplat uniforming is something that shows up at very long range, where differences in BC can spread out the time of flight for different projectiles. If you're not shooting a LOT at long range and don't already have very low ES/SD's then you're probably wasting your time fooling with it.

Philosophically, you can fiddle and futz over your ammo until the cows come home if that's what floats your boat but in practical shooting your ability to hit the target has very little to do with the absolute accuracy of your ammo. If what you are running currently isn't shooting easily under an inch then most likely you've got bigger problems than abnormal metplats or uneven necks.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Next step in accuracy

Greg: "There's a lot of interest in applying BR type ammunition crafting techniques to tactical and fullbore shooting. I don't think that makes best sense."

Ditto. BIG ditto.

 

[jaym_100]

Re: Next step in accuracy

I am typically shooting under an inch and have many 1/2 moa and under groups. I just want to try and take the as much variables in reloading out that I can. I am not sure how to keep the neck tension the same. I can feel a tighter neck tension on some cases when I seat the bullets, but I don't know how to fix that. I am using a redding series A seatig die and an RCBS Full length sizing die. I have a redding neck sizing die, but I am waiting to get some more cases fired through my chamber before I start shooting those. I have been reading about the bushing dies and it seems those might help.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Next step in accuracy

I can't fault your intentions, I just want to express my views about where the priorities lie. I think that time spent at the shooting bench is worth a lot more than time spent at the loading bench. If you follow my lead, I think you'll find that you've already identified the key issues.

I use an old fashioned BR technique to guage and adjust neck tension. It dates from back when resizing dies came in one flavor, Full Length.

We can't adjust the neck sizing diameter, but we can adjust the length of the portion of the neck that gets resized. Back off the die so only a very short portion of the neck actually enters the neck sizing area of the die.

The first bullet you test-seat will probably yield to the force of twisting the bullet in the neck with just thumb and forefinger.

Adjusting the die downward a little at a time will eventually cross the threshold to where it won't. This is the minimal satisfactory neck tension, and should only be used when singly chambering rounds by hand.

Add more if you're magazine feeding. Extract and check chambered/unfired rounds to see if the bullet suffers any setback. If it does, you need more neck tension.

If you do this setup for each set of brass, for each loading, you will be able to stay right on top of work hardening, and establish/maintain a measurable and repeatable degree of neck tension. Other methods work as estimates and do not accommodate work hardening. This method uses a pass/fail method to find the right adjustment, and follows the work hardening trend.

If you want this to work best, keep each batch of brass segregated for its entire life. This minimizes differences in work hardening.

Backing off the die will probably leave the base of the sidewall fully expanded. Actually, this expansion seldom has any drawbacks, and can actually provide a benefit by ensuring a better degree of centering of the cartridge base in the chamber. Cases resized this way will eventually grow to the point where they need a shoulder bump, just as neck-only resizing requires. It should also reduce brass working in the area where case head separations are more likely to occur.

Likewise, the unresized, expanded portion of the case neck should also better center the cartridge neck in the chamber. In a SAAMI chamber, this might actually do more for case neck concentricity than neck turning.

Greg

 

[TDaly25]

Re: Next step in accuracy

Greg, I'm curious about your thoughts on annealing and its impact on brass life. Thanks in advance, Tom

 

[vman]

Re: Next step in accuracy

Im not Greg, but i will step in and give my thoughts.

In my opinion brass life is extended by adhering to the following

- Not shooting hot loads that will expand primers pockets rapidly and/or increase the likely chance of case head seperation

- Sizing dies must be set up properly so that brass is not over worked during sizing

- Necks are annealed (after every firing) to return neck tension to a consistent level whilst also softening the brass around the neck area to prevent split necks and shoulders

My research is not conclusive but i would bet money that most of the worlds long range shooting records are set on hand loads with annealed necks.

 

[TDaly25]

Re: Next step in accuracy

Thanks Vman, I'm contemplating acquiring an automated annealing machine but am not yet 100@% sold

 

[vman]

Re: Next step in accuracy

No probs mate. Im also in the same boat. I anneal by hand at the moment and an automated system would just be so much nicer.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Next step in accuracy

I think that annealing is a good idea and that its impact on brass life, when done properly, is essentially positive.

I also think it can be done wrong, and that's not so good.

I don't do it, mainly because the basic idea goes against my KISS approach, and because equipment cost and the involvement of an open flame tend to be repellent. Basically if there's a way for me to burn myself, I'll usually find it.

Greg

 

[vman]

Re: Next step in accuracy

Greg, you must be prone to accidents then...

But if you have been reloading for some time now, and survived unscathed with your accident prone nature, then perhaps from another perspective you really arent accident prone... in which case you should take up annealing.

KISS approach is deffinately important. I understand that annealing can add a degree of complexity.

My aim is to get the Bench Source Vertex annealing machine. I hope to anneal my semi dry cases right after they have been cleaned. Should aid in the drying process and will give me nice consistent necks all year round.

All comes down to money in the end.

 

[TDaly25]

Re: Next step in accuracy

Greg and VMan, Thanks for the feedback. From an economic perspective my view is that the machine will quickly pay for itself in the form of extended brass life. I'm shooting Lapua brass for my .338LM and .308 and Nosler for my .280AI. Add in the .300WSM and the Norma .204 and double the useful life of 100 of each and you've recaptured your cost.

Having not yet shot annealed brass, my hesitancy was really around how much difference it makes accuracy-wise. I just dont have an apples to apples comparison. I've tried a manual operation with a torch but I'm sure my mechanics were inconsistent and flawed and the results were certainly inconclusive. Thanks again guys.

 

[Notso]

Re: Next step in accuracy

Tag for later reading

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Next step in accuracy

I probably should. Maybe I'll get a nice lump of otherwise unallocated income and make it happen. As priorities go, it needs to reside rather far down on my list.

One of the things that ameliorates my brass consumption is my absolutely miserly approach to bore wear. I shoot very few rounds of fullbore ammo that aren't actually being expended on comp shooting.

Most everything else is accomplished with the smallbore.

I don't put up loaded ammo as a basic rule. It usually gets made and used in a span of a few weeks at most.

Fact is, I buy 50 or 100 cases of a chambering each Spring, and use to for the shooting year. I then relegate it to a 'Zombie Fodder' load and start again with fresh stuff the next Spring.

My exceptions are Shotgun ammo and Rimfire ammo, which I can't/don't make for myself.

Also (this past year, mostly,) I buy the odd box or two of Core-Lokt .222 Rem each month for use on Varmints and as 'Newbie Ammo'. This replenishes the brass supply on an gradual basis.

Greg

 

[dar1246]

Re: Next step in accuracy

The Bench Source Annealling machine works great. You can anneal 300 sticks of brass in 10 to 15 minutes. No effort and easy to do. This is something I think could been done because it doesn't take much time to accomplish a more accurate round.
Time on the bench takes away from trigger time. But if you can make you reloading efforts faster and produce more accurate rounds. Then its worth the extra steps.

 

[Rover31]

Re: Next step in accuracy

Thanks for posting this question, I learned a lot from the responses, Thanks folks for the ideas.

The #1 thing I have learned as I really stepped up my shooting is more rounds fired. I have been testing loads and have really noticed that the massive increase in rounds fired per week I have become much faster to acquire the target, settle, and fire and have the group size significantly smaller.
#2 find a round combo that your rifle loves. find the 'node' or charge weight and length that your gun likes.
then become systematic about it, do it all the same and learn. That is what I have found give me better results. I still do all of the other voodoo we do but the above work for me.
Good luck
T

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Next step in accuracy

I've said this often, and it's worth saying again.

The accumulated life of a bore, adding up the bore transit times for an entire lifespan, is about six seconds. I cannot contemplate why anyone would want to expend even a portion of this brief span for anything other than the primary purpose for which the rifle is intended.

Every other purpose, including the most intensive, training, can be more effectively and economically accomplished with a rimfire trainer.

Greg

 

[sinister]

Re: Next step in accuracy

Precision Shooting did a great big experiment regarding Obsessive-Compulsive type benchrest case preparation for normal human shooters. Their bottom-line results came down to (besides standard case prep) the biggest contributor to uniformity (i.e., better accuracy, reduced extreme spread variation, and better standard deviation) was deburring primer flash holes.

Anything else is benchrest prep. It's up to you whether the time invested is worth the precision gains.

I'd like the most precision I can squeeze out of a cartridge -- but I refuse to be a slave to the loading bench.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Next step in accuracy

I think you and they are right, and also prize neck tension as a key accuracy factor.

For me, figuring out how to accurately guage it and manage it was the problem until I revisited my Elder Brother's 'short sizing' technique.

I still shoot like crap; but now I can rest secure in the knowledge that my marksmanship shortcomings are mine, and not the ammo's.

Greg

 

[k80kid]

Re: Next step in accuracy

trigger time....trigger time.....trigger time...

 

[vman]

Re: Next step in accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom D.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Greg and VMan, Thanks for the feedback. From an economic perspective my view is that the machine will quickly pay for itself in the form of extended brass life. I'm shooting Lapua brass for my .338LM and .308 and Nosler for my .280AI. Add in the .300WSM and the Norma .204 and double the useful life of 100 of each and you've recaptured your cost.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Having not yet shot annealed brass, my hesitancy was really around how much difference it makes accuracy-wise. I just dont have an apples to apples comparison.</span> I've tried a manual operation with a torch but I'm sure my mechanics were inconsistent and flawed and the results were certainly inconclusive. Thanks again guys. </div></div>

It improves on accuracy by returning the neck tension of the brass to a predictable and repeatable amount.

Every time you properly anneal that neck you are in effect softening the brass which has a direct effect on the tension of the neck. Soft brass grips bullets nicely and releases them in the same manner.

Work hardened brass becomes more and more difficult to seat, and I believe would also have an effect on bullet release.

Many of us that anneal will tell you that we believe annealing reduces fliers and in turn helps to reduce group sizes.

 

[thefitter]

Re: Next step in accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I can rest secure in the knowledge that my marksmanship shortcomings are mine, and not the ammo's.

Greg </div></div>

That right there is the main benefits for my hand loading. It allows me to really work on ME. If I have a flier or a off group I can then evaluate my technical short comings with out having to figure out if it was the ammo.

Verticals off = I'm not dialing for range properly
Horizontals off = Not reading wind well, Trigger control
Flier = Concentration, rushing, flinch

Etc.,

 

[TDaly25]

Re: Next step in accuracy

Guys, thanks so much for the thoughts. I think this thread just convinced me to order the Bench Source.

Dar, those boys of yours setting any more records lately? Your lengthy thread is still the best I've ever read anywhere

Greg, thanks for the philosophy on big bore training. Funny, I never looked at it that way, thought it sure does make sense.

VMan, I've developed a good understanding of the theory of annealing and why it should work but I've never been in a position to confirm that it does to any consistent and measurable degree. Thanks for taking the time to respond thoroughly.

You guys are the best!

 

[mdesign]

Re: Next step in accuracy

Most of the guys commenting here are more experienced and accomplished than I but annealing my brass and the resulting consistent neck tension and loaded run-out probably made the as much difference in my LR accuracy than all the others combined.

True, there are many factor in reloading but most brass prep does not make a big difference in my experience.

A annealing machine would be nice and if I shot comps I would own one. Because I tend not to shoot more than a 1000 rounds per year, I do it by hand using the the method I describe in this article.

Brass Prep for 300wsm

 

[Jerkface11]

Re: Next step in accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with .010 but in a production rifle that is not possible and still be able to feed out of the mag </div></div>

That is going to vary from rifle to rifle. In my Ruger .264winmag the throat is so short I have over a half inch of magazine I can't use.

 

[TDaly25]

Re: Next step in accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mdesign</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most of the guys commenting here are more experienced and accomplished than I but annealing my brass and the resulting consistent neck tension and loaded run-out probably made the as much difference in my LR accuracy than all the others combined.

True, there are many factor in reloading but most brass prep does not make a big difference in my experience.

A annealing machine would be nice and if I shot comps I would own one. Because I tend not to shoot more than a 1000 rounds per year, I do it by hand using the the method I describe in this article.

Brass Prep for 300wsm
</div></div>

If this is Greg, that is a gorgeous 300! I need to check into the carbon wrapping

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Next step in accuracy

Nope, not me, but a delicious presentation in itself. I don't do Magnums. I don't think I need 'em.

...er, well, I <span style="font-style: italic">do</span> have a Win '94AE .44Mag. But to me, it's just a really nifty carbine.

Greg