Rifle Scopes NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

[jeffbird]

A friend recently just had to have the NF scope off of my rifle, so I ordered a new replacement, a 5.5x22x56 with NP-R1.

Last week, I was at the range with two friends, one of whom had a S&B 5x25, and the other had a Swarovski 3.5x18x44.

All of us were a bit surprised, but all agreed, the NF was dramatically clearer, crisper, and brighter than either the S&B or Swaro. The difference was so dramatic that the friend with the S&B likely will sell it and replace it with a NF.

His S&B is two years old, so perhaps the difference is due to new glass vs. one that has aged for a couple of years.

Another friend saw the new scope, ordered one, and it too is yielding the same eye popping clarity and brightness

Anyway, yes this sounds crazy, but just reporting an interesting experience.

I do sort of miss the low speed turret though and wish it was still an option.

 

[pupdawg]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

Just a couple questions:

Is this the first Schmidt you looked through?

Also is your NF the first NF your friend with the SnB and Swarovski looked through?

I have shot on both the NF, SnB and now a Hensoldt. The "clarity" between glass on all three are somewhat close and nothing I would call drastic. Each scope presents different pro's and cons depending on the end user and his/her likes and dislikes.

Although the NF you have may look dramatically brighter, crispier, clearer than the Schmidt and the Swarovski it is by no means implying that it is better than the SnB/ Swarovski and vice versa. (I know that is not your intent but just thought I'd expand on your post a little) It does somewhat imply what YOU look for in a scope and it is definitely nice that yout NF is clearer, meaning you made a good decision in buying it.

Something to consider... if I were to cover the scope bodies and remove the reticles so all you have is the lens system/ glass to look through, I'd bet you would be hard pressed to tell a drastic difference and wouldn't be able to name the scope you're looking through.

There's an expectation when you look through an expensive scope, and when it "looks" the same (usually because the person doesn't know what to look for) as another scope thats half the price, it doesn't make sense to them. But like I stated before, the clarity of the glass is not what solely defines a rifle scope, but rather part of the system. Like a personal check list: glass, turrets, adjustments, reticle, durability, features, etc.

Just some food for thought.

 

[steve123]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffbird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A friend recently just had to have the NF scope off of my rifle, so I ordered a new replacement, a 5.5x22x56 with NP-R1.

Last week, I was at the range with two friends, one of whom had a S&B 5x25, and the other had a Swarovski 3.5x18x44.

All of us were a bit surprised, but all agreed, the NF was dramatically clearer, crisper, and brighter than either the S&B or Swaro. The difference was so dramatic that the friend with the S&B likely will sell it and replace it with a NF.

His S&B is two years old, so perhaps the difference is due to new glass vs. one that has aged for a couple of years.

Another friend saw the new scope, ordered one, and it too is yielding the same eye popping clarity and brightness

Anyway, yes this sounds crazy, but just reporting an interesting experience.

I do sort of miss the low speed turret though and wish it was still an option.

</div></div>

I'm glad someone else has seen the same thing. I've mentioned that the glass was better than they used to be in other threads but got no comment.

I noticed that my new F1 bought about 9 months ago had better glass than my other 2 older NF 5.5-22's. It's a nice bright scope on 15X too. I had a chance to look through a older 3.5-15 shortly after I bought the F1. That particular scope actually had lackluster glass in it.

I'll take the close click spacing and convenience of the HS knobs over the wider spacing of the LS any day. Nothing worse than forgetting and being a rev off during a comp and loosing a bunch of points. It's about impossible to do the same with the HS. The HS are also very distinct and well laid out. The lines even index correctly! Can you believe it? That being said I sure would like to see NF do a wider knob.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

Also note that there is some normal variance from scope to scope. I have two scopes of an identical make and model and one has much better glass than the other. The next NF may not be as good, the next S&B may be much better.

What were the measures of evaluating? Just glaring through at the range? Or did you look at twilight? Did you try to read print at an extended range? Did you try to pick details out in shadows?

There is much more than the 30 second "look through" test at the range.

 

[dcjs]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

One thing I never see mentioned in comparisons like this is whether all scopes were dialed more or less to optical center. Especially with longrange scopes, having one of them on an extreme canted base and another one close to center might skew the whole affair considerably. Different scopes aren't equally affected by this, it is a matter of the optical design how much elevation they tolerate before the image degrades considerably, but they all get worse towards the extremes of the adjustment range. A skilled observer will be able to tell if the erector is more or less centered by looking through the scope alone.

I would go as far as saying that with two diffenrent scopes that are roughly in the same league optics-wise, you could show them to a group of people, have them pick a "winner", and then show them to another group of people after twisting the knobs "appropriately" and get the exact opposite result.

This is why anectdotal evidence like "I looked at this scope and it was great/crappy in comparison to this other scope" is borderline useless if the person doing the "comparison" isn't aware of the major factors that can affect image quality.

 

[dcjs]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

Jeff,

I'm not saying anything about this case in particular because I wasn't there, I haven't seen the scopes and I don't know anything about the people looking at the scopes. My remarks were meant as general considerations to keep in mind when judging/comparing scopes regarding IQ. Dialing in elevation and watching for relevant changes to IQ is a very easy test anyone can do with his scope, maybe before deciding on using the most extreme canted base the adjustment range of the scope will support.

 

[dbransco]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

Thanks for the feedback Jeffbird, its always great to hear others perspectives!

 

[mdmp5]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

You are correct, the glass between NF, SB and Hensoldt is hard to see the differences in, especially to an untrained eye. You have to look thru the glass in sub-optimal conditions to appreciate good glass. Look thru the SB and NF on a really crappy, rainy day. That is when I could tell the difference between my NF and Hensoldt.

 

[Graham]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

I have seen a great deal of variation in apparent glass quality from scope to scope, even among the same manufacturer.

Manufacturers have quality control specifications within which scopes can leave the shop for sale. Lately I have seen some very good NF F1s, which must have been closest to the top of the spectrum because they better my USO and rival my SB for clarity.

I have seen some not-so-good SBs, but those are the exception and not the rule: As a rule, SB and Hensoldt can't be beat. That said, my recent experience with NF suggests to me that the product that is being offered for sale now is better than it ever was.

 

[psinclair]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

Good point.....The exact reason it's very difficult to get proper parralax adjustment at 100 meters with a base of 30 moa or greater. Working out of the optic center of any scope can be a challenge, especially with the larger, higher magnifying variables.

In comparing image quality beetween the two scopes Jeff checked out, the NF scopes I've looked through and shot were on par with anything else, including S&B, PR and Hensoldt in good light conditions. The noticable advantage I've seen is the field of view with all four scopes set at 15X easily goes to the S&B, PR and Hensoldt in my opinion.

 

[dar1246]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

I have both 5 S&Bs and 4 NF,1 IOR. I always check the scopes in different times of the day. That is when I base an opinion on the scope compared to price.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

I'm not quite as versed as others with regard to optical quality/clarity. I however, noticed how nice the glass on my Nightforce was in comparison to other scopes I've had my eye behind, on things like clarity of the image at longer ranges and through mirage.

To be able to get a good crisp image at extended ranges and have pretty good clarity when mirage is present seems like an optical challenge that would highlight higher quality glass over lower.

Rich

 

[Quickdraw40]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

I've compared a NF 5.5-22x50, a 5-25x56 Premier, and a S&B 5-25x56, side by side at around 22 power. The Premier and S&B had noticeably more clarity at defining details than the NF. $0.02

 

[LibertyOptics]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

The F1 is the best Nightforce "I've" ever looked through. Never seen a bad one. The older SFP scopes were just OK, IMO (speaking strictly in glass terms) This just illustrates the point that these products change over time and a couple of years in this industry is a "generation" and things are always changing.

Haven't looked through a 2010 or 2011 NXS SFP scope but if the glass is the same as the F1 I can easily understand the favorable impression. It's really good stuff.

Scott

 

[tylerw02]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

I've used older NXS models....around 06(?) and can say that Zeiss Conquest glass of the same era was brighter.

 

[dar1246]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

The S&B,IORs,are better in low light conditions and clarity at longer ranges. The NF is a great scope and the glass is good but I don't think the glass would be an equal to the ones mention.
I purchase a bushnell tactical scope and would think for the price it would be compare to the NF.

All in all these are great scopes. The features would be the thing I would look for.

 

[BCP]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

Some scopes are better in bright light than others. Also a lot of people confuse the "brightness" effect for clarity. My 4-14x50 leupie in broad daylight is a bit "brighter" than my IOR however when you start focusing on smaller objects, color representation and resolution at long distances the IOR is obviously better.

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

I had a NF that was 5-9 years old. Comparing that with Brandon's brand new one it wasn't even close. Not sure what NF has changed over the years but they've certainly stepped it up.

I know when I get my AI AE next year a NF F1 is going to be riding on top.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

The scopes walk into a bar.

The first one was new and had just been exit pupil adjusted and had its sun shield on, the second was two years old and rarely lens cleaned but lived in a smoke filled room, the third's condition was just unknown.

The bar tender asked "Which of you is the brightest?" to which the first replied "at what distance?", the second said "At what time of day?" and the third said "all I know is the other two are paying."

 

[pupdawg]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffbird</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pupdawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just a couple questions:

Is this the first Schmidt you looked through?

Also is your NF the first NF your friend with the SnB and Swarovski looked through?


Something to consider... if I were to cover the scope bodies and remove the reticles so all you have is the lens system/ glass to look through, I'd bet you would be hard pressed to tell a drastic difference and wouldn't be able to name the scope you're looking through.
</div></div>

No, this was not the first S&B I have looked through, although it has been 2 - 3 years since I looked at a S&B and NF of comparable magnifications side by side for an extended period. No, this was not the first time they have looked through a NF.

By "clarity" and "crispness" I am referring to our ability to read handwritten notes on a target at 100 yards written with a fine point, black Sharpie pen, and the brightness and vibrancy of the colors on the targets, steels, and background (South Texas brush) on a range that extends back to 600 yards.

This is the fifth or sixth NF I have owned, and it is noticeably improved over the other two that I currently own, which are a few years old, when compared side by side.

This was during the middle of the day in bright light, and into the later afternoon with shadows, over a periods of hours, not "30 seconds."

fwiw - the "bird" in my handle comes from my involvement in bird conservation efforts, during the course of which I have the opportunity to look through lots of different binos and spotting scopes each year for comparison, so I have a pretty good feel for analyzing impressions and differences in the field between the optics.

While I knew this post would buck conventional wisdom, it seemed noteworthy because of that fact, and because it was shared by three different people comparing three different optics under the same conditions for an extended period.

It was just one day, one set of scopes, under one set of conditions, but it did seem interesting and worth sharing.
</div></div>

All noted.

I remember your post on the Zeiss rangefinder or binocular? Interesting and informative.

I have not looked through a current, new production NF and if they are reportedly better I will have to take your word for it.

It is good to know and see that NF is improving their product every year.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

In all seriousness, I just got my new F1, not an easy one to get your hands on one. I went out just yesterday for a beautiful fall day of shooting with folks that carried in a broad number of scopes. First, when we compared the new F1 to 1 or 2 year old top end NFs, we all agreed the new F1 came up on top. But there may very well be a solid reason for this. With the new contract, the challenge of finding a larger volume of new high end glass and a strict regime for inspection to meet the new specs has put NF through a wringer. Add to that some mis-steps as it relates to some reticule suppliers on the MLR2 and NF is fully focused on achieving a level of quality not only expected, but now demanded. Hand ground lenses v.s. machine ground lenses that are hand finished, new specs, new operations, new techniques, new inspection... The results are what happens with any company goes heads down on quality, excellent.

S&B were there, as were Hensoldt, and in all honesty that are simply gorgeous instruments. Brighter? Tighter? Can't say as they, when taken together are so damn different in their specs. The price seemed right on the NF F1. I wouldn't want to spend more for less. I also wouldn't want to spend more for more.

 

[bengates]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

So, I have a Leupy VX-III that looks fantastic on a sunny day - truly great. But that's not were you notice imperfections. It's when you are looking through a scope for 4 hours straight that you start telling the difference in optical clarity.

Also, each scope needed to be adjusted for the vision of each person - especially when defining "crisp and clear". For example, I'm near sighted and so I have to adjust my ocular for my vision. When my friend looks through it he has a hard time with the "clarity" for this reason. I have owed 2 NF's and they're great scopes, but with all due respect this test is very subjective. I noticed that the colors popped more on my NF over my S&B, but the S&B had a more natural color and is completely unparalleled at lower light settings. The NF appeared "brighter" sometimes because oranges, reds, and greens were all a little richer in tone - but not true to the natural color. This is due to their coating formula which alters the colors a bit and makes them pop. This heavy contrast of tones can be perceived as "crispness" but it's a bit of an optical trick - though a good one at that!

All of this should be taken with a grain of salt, and please understand that I think the NF is a fine scope. But, don't let a one time look through some scopes on a sunny day be the deciding factor in purchasing a scope. However, if you're friend is selling his S&B then please have him contact me . . . serious, I'll buy it since he doesn't like it anymore.

 

[sf88]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

I've only owned 1 S&B, a 5-25 PF4 that I loved, but when push came to shove after a financial setback I had to sell one of my high dollar scopes and I ended up ditching the S&B and keeping my F1. I got a smoking deal on mine (2k even) and for the money I just felt it was more of a value.

 

[DannySeesUSMC]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

Some times it seems like there are people on here are trying to pick out an SLR lens instead of a scope used to shoot things

 

[vtb]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DannySeesUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some times it seems like there are people on here are trying to pick out an SLR lens instead of a scope used to shoot things

</div></div>

If there was SLR capable to be used as a scope - i'd defenetely bought one.

Compared F1 NXS to 2-years old SFP NXS - F1 is clearly better than old Nightforce.
But it still has "pastel" tone of the image compared to S&B (though i'd say F1 as clear as S&B)

 

[300WSM]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

aged glass?

 

[bengates]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">aged glass?</div></div>

Yeah, I thought that was a good one! I've never heard it before

 

[M21guy]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

My eyes are not what they used to be, but sure feel like it and then some looking through a S&B. S&B about blew my mind. There was a huge difference between that and the NF I tried. I ended up buying USO and feel it falls somewhere inbetween. All of which are pretty nice stuff.

 

[dieselgeek]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

Tell that guy if he wants a NF I'll trade him for his S&B.

 

[300WSM]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

then compare apples to apples. aged COATINGS to aged COATINGS.

we're they cleaned the same? give me a break. You can not make a determination with out an apples to apples comparison.

 

[JRose]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

Ummmmmm, I guess I got a bunch of bum NF's then....

When I looked through my Hensoldts, NF, and SB all side by side, it made my F1 look bad. Mind you these were all my scopes, set up for me, on the same(ish) power.

I never cared much for the F1 because of the MLR reticle in it, but now with the MLR2 it's a viable option again. I like NF scopes just fine, but optically I don't think they're in the same league as the Germans.

That being said, I also think that optically all are suited better for shooting than what is practically needed. I'm not one that thinks that hubble quality glass is the great qualifier for a good rifle scope...

 

[normbal]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">aged glass?</div></div>

Yeah, I thought that was a good one! I've never heard it before

</div></div>

Sure. Everyone knows that, for example, old church glass "flows" and thickens near the bottom. Why, I've heard that centuries-old stained glass windows can be twice as thick at the bottom as they are at the top.

So it follows that rifle scope glass too will similarly "age," and "flow" with time.

I think storing our scopes upside down periodically should prevent any unnecessary flow and subsequent distortion of the lenses.

I am also selling my interest in the Washington Monument and the Brooklyn Bridge; anyone interested in buying my shares can PM me.

Thanks.

 

[JRose]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I also wouldn't want to spend more for more.

</div></div>

Most would benefit by taking heed to this profound statement... I for one LOVE my Henny's and SB, but I am so done with $3k+ scopes.


Diminishing returns.....

 

[Snipers]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

This is an interesting thread. It says a lot about the experience and expertise of the people that frequent the site.

My $.02:

If an optic connoisseur then hand select the item and pay any premium. Either that, or find an online dealer with significant stock in UPS.

I’m sure variation exists amongst the same model. I’m sure some production runs are better than others. I’m sure manufacturers constantly improve their products. Luckily, I’m not a connoisseur – so I’m happy with expensive and an excellent industry reputation.

 

[300WSM]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

300WSM races over to his safe to do an emergency scope rotation !!!!

 

[Snipers]

Re: NF & S&B clarity interesting experience

Chill out - I was paying you a compliment.

Don't read more into it than what was intended (i.e. experts may be better off handpicking their equipment).

Regards!