Nightforce against the world

[FjallJager]

A buddy of mine is a dealer for Kahles and even though the the Kahles is optically superior to the Nightforce he keeps telling me that I should just buy a nightforce and be done with it.

Until he became a Kahles rep, he was exclusively using Nightforce on every gun he shot.

My current scope line up has my Meopta ZD as my top scope, and everything else pales in comparison.

What would you do?

 

[Mordamer]

Kahles aren't superior optically. I own both. Buy the nightforce.

 

[StrayDog]

I'd bug him incessantly for a deep discount on the Khales DLR

 

[kyzim311]

It would depend on what I was doing with said rifle. Both are great scopes, but Nightforce generally has more internal adjustment range for similar products. I would look through both and let your eyes pick if you can.

 

[isofahunter]

Kahles.

 

[FjallJager]

I'd bug him incessantly for a deep discount on the Khales DLR

Dude his mate's rate is kind of shit, the problem is for his country he is the only importer. The cost of export after he has to import it is really high, I can order one cheaper from my guy in Germany or through Euro Optic or Cameraland NY by calling.

That and his smoking hot wife just left him after he caught her in a train with 3 dudes. He needs some slack.

 

[SepticDeath]

Dude his mate's rate is kind of shit, the problem is for his country he is the only importer. The cost of export after he has to import it is really high, I can order one cheaper from my guy in Germany or through Euro Optic or Cameraland NY by calling.

That and his smoking hot wife just left him after he caught her in a train with 3 dudes. He needs some slack.

 

[FjallJager]

Kahles aren't superior optically. I own both. Buy the nightforce.

NXS, ATACR or 8 series?

I want a 5-25x56 or 3-27 for long range hunting, and shooting.

Eventually I want one system for every rifle. I currently have 5 different systems, and 4 different brands and I am tired of it.

I had considered Schmidt Bender, Kahles, Swarovski X5 and Steiner M5XI. Plus the high end Jap stuff and the new Maven 5-30.

Need one system to keep my brain working correctly.

 

[FjallJager]

Other dumb question, if I bought one Nightforce in a ATACR, and just kept buying the same reticle and focal plane would it be easy to switch back and forth?

I want to dumb this down, as I am sharing guns between 3 kids and myself.

My best scope currently is a Meopta ZD 6-24x56. Has transexual MOA turrets and MIL reticle and is 2nd focal. I know it well, but it's really long and bulky and a pain in the ass.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

When Kahles shits the bed, as they did with the gen1 and gen2 K624i series, they refuse to acknowledge or address it. For that singular reason, I will never again buy a Kahles anything. I've dealt with many companies that have screwed things up; and with the exception of Trijicon (tri-power, SRS, early RMRs), no one has ever been as jackass about it.
That, and Nightforce just straight-up work. The Beast had an annoyance, and a few others have had minor issues (early electronic illumination controls), but Nightforce generally gets it right or makes it right.

Most people that have played this game for awhile have a list of "no fucking way" products or makers. I know of several who have Kahles on that list, but don't know of any who have Nightforce on that list.

Mileage varies.

 

[sleeplz]

Tell him to become zco dealer and go mpct3 reticle.

 

[FjallJager]

When Kahles shits the bed, as they did with the gen1 and gen2 K624i series, they refuse to acknowledge or address it. For that singular reason, I will never again buy a Kahles anything. I've dealt with many companies that have screwed things up; and with the exception of Trijicon (tri-power, SRS, early RMRs), no one has ever been as jackass about it.
That, and Nightforce just straight-up work. The Beast had an annoyance, and a few others have had minor issues (early electronic illumination controls), but Nightforce generally gets it right or makes it right.

Most people that have played this game for awhile have a list of "no fucking way" products or makers. I know of several who have Kahles on that list, but don't know of any who have Nightforce on that list.

Mileage varies.

Thank you!

I am trying to pair things down and get some kind of normal. Everytime we got to the range we spend an hour trying to figure out what the hell we brought and what it needs.

When you are teaching 3 girls between 5 and 10 how to shoot, and keep them interested things need to be stupid.

But when you get a 5 year old to ring a gong at 300 yards for the first time, it is a life changer.

 

[Mordamer]

Other dumb question, if I bought one Nightforce in a ATACR, and just kept buying the same reticle and focal plane would it be easy to switch back and forth?

I want to dumb this down, as I am sharing guns between 3 kids and myself.

My best scope currently is a Meopta ZD 6-24x56. Has transexual MOA turrets and MIL reticle and is 2nd focal. I know it well, but it's really long and bulky and a pain in the ass.

In my opinion the ATACR is the one to get. I think it is very easy to buy the Mil-C and or the Mil-XT and switch between them and learn them. I tried ZCO, Kahles, Minox, Hensoldt, and my favorite scope is still the NF 7-35 ATACR F1.

The Kahles 624i that I owned was terrible both in glass and reliabillity. The k525i with SKMR4 reticle I have now is nice, but I'd trade it for a Nightforce if given a chance. I just haven't gotten around to offering it for trade in the PX section.

 

[264win]

I have S&B on my two main rifles and Bushnell on everything else.
If I could afford a bunch of S&B or ZCO I would.

To my eyes, Neither NF not Kahles has top tier glass. And to me it makes a very notable difference when spending hours behind a scope or if the conditions suck ( mirage, overcast, etc)

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

I always went with Kahles, now I have changed to Vortex Razor.
To learn more, please send me pics of "smoking hot wife".

 

[beetroot]

Switching between different reticles isn't as bad as you'd think.
Most modern reticles are very similar these day with .2mil holds throughout, very few reticles have a bunch if weird subtensions that require you to memorize them.

If you are dead set on sticking with one reticle to simplify life Vortex is your best bet.
Diamondback Tac, Strike Eagle, PST, Razor and AMG all have the same reticle and offer price points from 400USD up to 2000USD.
There are dealers who ship internationally who will likely be a far better price than your local pricing (as your Kahles example shows).

 

[FjallJager]

And then the vortex fanboys showed up!

 

[deersniper]

Kahles aren't superior optically. I own both. Buy the nightforce.

Kahles is superior.

I own a 318i and a pile of Nightforce’s. I am Nightforce's biggest fan

Look back and forth between a ATACR and a 318 and the 318 is superior.

Had. 5-45 and 5-25 benders and they are inferior.

 

[charnicus]

Kahles has always treated me very well and have acknowledged short comings. Customer support and product support have always been A++. I have always found their glass to be superior to my Nightforce scopes. Especially in clarity. Between the 7-35 Atacr and K525i, I kept the K525i. Between the K318i and the 4-16 Atacr, I sold one to get another. They are different scopes. Different features and so on. Pick a reticle and run with it. They’ll both serve you well if they work for you. They both have excellent glass. I find Nightforce scopes to be better in the eye box department.

 

[deersniper]

 

[Alpine 338]

Kahles reliability issues vs. Nightforce crappy reticle offerings. I'll pass on both.

 

[Mordamer]

Kahles reliability issues vs. Nightforce crappy reticle offerings. I'll pass on both.

Mil-XT is the best reticle going. This stuff just ends up as personal preference.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

I've owned Kahles for years, no regrets.
Vortex Razor sits on 2 of my rifles now.
Different purposes.
Still comes down to personal preference.

 

[MCHOG]

As has been repeated many times: in the top tier scopes you can't really go wrong. The differences of opinion by people who have used both and know what they are talking about illustrates that exact point. Just pick the one with the reticle that you like and stop overthinking it.

 

[Huskydriver]

This a buy a zco or GBPSE thread yet?

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

It all comes down to dollars.
Unless you can snaffle a really good deal on a top notch second hand scope.

 

[M8541Reaper]

View attachment 7538795

I’m stealing this.

 

[deersniper]

I’m stealing this.

I knew I should have copyrighted it

 

[jzerfoss]

This thread is an indication that people have a very different perception of image quality or a lack of quality control with glass.... I've had 3 k624s and one k525 and none of them came close to the IQ of my 7-35s. A couple k624s had better IQ than the k525. I really liked the features of the Kahles but like others I'll never own or trust them again with my issues and the issues several friends had.

 

[FjallJager]

Does the 7-35 NF have a lot of tunneling at 7x?

I am a 20-450 vision guy. Any issues at all become magnified to the point of being uncomfortable in a optic.

 

[Night Vision Viking]

Kahles or perhaps NF 7-35

 

[Glassaholic]

A buddy of mine is a dealer for Kahles and even though the the Kahles is optically superior to the Nightforce he keeps telling me that I should just buy a nightforce and be done with it.

Until he became a Kahles rep, he was exclusively using Nightforce on every gun he shot.

My current scope line up has my Meopta ZD as my top scope, and everything else pales in comparison.

What would you do?

OP, what are you really asking? Are your only choices between Nightforce and Kahles, or are you willing to consider other scopes? Assuming your budget is within the ATACR 7-35 and K525i DLR range, you're looking around $3-$3500. Have you considered:

• ZCO 5-27x56 or 4-20x50
• March 4.5-28x52 High Master
• Schmidt 3-27x56, 3-20x50
• Leica PRS 5-25x56
• Minox ZP5 5-25x56

I'm not saying to not go with Nightforce or Kahles, but there are other options within that price, and cheaper, that are worthy of consideration. All these scopes (including NF and Kahles) have their following with shooters who've been very successful with them. The general rule applies here - choose the scope with the reticle that is most beneficial to your style of shooting/needs and the scope will follow

 

[Langford]

The Kahles 624i was the best $1000 scope I’ve ever owned, too bad they cost 3x that. No comparison between that scope and the ATACR 7-35 I have on the rifle now.

I’ve heard the 3-18 and 1-6 Kahles have great glass, but my experience with the 624 makes me very hesitant to try another Kahles product.

 

[Jgunner]

Dude his mate's rate is kind of shit, the problem is for his country he is the only importer. The cost of export after he has to import it is really high, I can order one cheaper from my guy in Germany or through Euro Optic or Cameraland NY by calling.

That and his smoking hot wife just left him after he caught her in a train with 3 dudes. He needs some slack.

Pics of said wife

 

[CrabsandFootball]

When Kahles shits the bed, as they did with the gen1 and gen2 K624i series, they refuse to acknowledge or address it. For that singular reason, I will never again buy a Kahles anything. I've dealt with many companies that have screwed things up; and with the exception of Trijicon (tri-power, SRS, early RMRs), no one has ever been as jackass about it.
That, and Nightforce just straight-up work. The Beast had an annoyance, and a few others have had minor issues (early electronic illumination controls), but Nightforce generally gets it right or makes it right.

Most people that have played this game for awhile have a list of "no fucking way" products or makers. I know of several who have Kahles on that list, but don't know of any who have Nightforce on that list.

Mileage varies.

Well atleast they have something in common with Nightforce.

Most here saw the drama that went on last year with the vet who tried to get NF to fix his defective optic for like a year. Had to sue them and then they scrubbed evidence of it most likely as part of a NDA.

Kahles has MUCH better reticles and IMO, better glass. They are also roughly the same price for similar type optics. I would go Kahles all things being equal but everyone likes a different flavor of ice cream. Variety is the spice of life.

Pepridge farms remembers.

 

[Secant]

It's not totally clear to me which Nightforce the OP is looking at. The SHVs, NXSs, and NX8s that I've messed around with have been pretty unimpressive. The ATACR line is really the only viable offering from NF to me, and at the ATACR level I tend to agree with the "choose your reticle" responses. I haven't really warmed up to the Mil-XT in my ATACR. My brain prefers the SKMR3 or EBR-7C with a more open center. A couple small tweaks to the Mil-XT, and I'd like it a whole lot more, but obviously that's personal preference.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

the problem is for his country he is the only importer. The cost of export after he has to import it is really high, I can order one cheaper from my guy in Germany or through Eur

Mil-XT is the best reticle going. This stuff just ends up as personal preference.

The Best Reticle NF has going on, which is pretty shitty compared to everyone else.

If NF got their reticle game together 10+ years ago, they would have DOMINATED the market. They have always sucked and the mil-xt while servicable, is a too little to late. same with FC-DM.

 

[Leftie]

The Best Reticle NF has going on, which is pretty shitty compared to everyone else.

If NF got their reticle game together 10+ years ago, they would have DOMINATED the market. They have always sucked and the mil-xt while servicable, is a too little to late. same with FC-DM.

Out of curiosity, which reticles are you referencing as comparisons to their Mil-XT and FC-DM? As other posters have said here, reticle choice is probably the most important single decision initially.

I do agree that NF totally missed the mark with the NX8 1-8 reticle, and would have been much better off offering the FC-DM in that optic.

I'm still patiently waiting for a company to include adjustable parallax in a 1-8 or 1-10 offering with a reticle design that is a bit more modern... maybe I haven't looked hard enough though...

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Out of curiosity, which reticles are you referencing as comparisons to their Mil-XT and FC-DM? As other posters have said here, reticle choice is probably the most important single decision initially.

I do agree that NF totally missed the mark with the NX8 1-8 reticle, and would have been much better off offering the FC-DM in that optic.

I'm still patiently waiting for a company to include adjustable parallax in a 1-8 or 1-10 offering with a reticle design that is a bit more modern... maybe I haven't looked hard enough though...

Lets see.

G2, G3, G3H, Gen2 XR, Gen 3XR, MCPT 2, MCPT3, SMR3, AMR, EBR-2M, EBR-7, EBR-7B, SCR Mil 2, MR4, FML-T1, FML-TR1, PRB off the top of my head.

Maybe someone more knowledgable about optic design can chime in, but i think it would be hard to keep the weight/size down if you had paralax adjustment. Would probally need additional lenses and IQ may suffer trying to smash it all in such a small package?

 

[jinxx4ever]

i've only had one interaction with Kahles customer service an it was great

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

i've only had one interaction with Kahles customer service an it was great

This is an important point: Kahles may have fixed everything that they royally fucked up in years past, that is entirely possible. That said, getting ass-raped by an optics company - as said above, selling a $1,000 scope for $3,000+ - is something people remember for much, MUCH longer than most companies anticipate.
I cannot speak of (and have not spoken of) Kahles' current offering, I can only relay what is a troubled history and the reasons for my spending money elsewhere. The original question was Kahles or Nightforce, and my call was made quite clear in that.
Others can attest what what modern Kahles is doing, I can tell you what they have done, and how they responded when people pointed out the shit-show that was their product and their servicing thereof.
I do agree that other players in this game deserve mention; however, the original question was regarding those 2 and what I would do.

And, at this point, I will stop beating this dead horse.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

The Dealer you buy from is as important as the maker. My Local Kahles guy is a world class comp shooter, runs multi-miliondollar business and has more toys than horta. If one of our scopes went down he would bend over backwards to get it sorted out.

Most dealers say deal with the manufacture when they have the power. Want to provide shitty CS, we wont sell your junk.

 

[FjallJager]

The Dealer you buy from is as important as the maker. My Local Kahles guy is a world class comp shooter, runs multi-miliondollar business and has more toys than horta. If one of our scopes went down he would bend over backwards to get it sorted out.

Most dealers say deal with the manufacture when they have the power. Want to provide shitty CS, we wont sell your junk.

Ok, so that is a rarity, I have had problems with a variety of products over my 45 years of life on this planet. It is hard to hold the dealer accountable for something they sold.

This is the reason Vortex and Schmidt Bender is now sold by fewer and fewer companies.

 

[FjallJager]

I have spent a ton of money with CameralandNY and Euro Optics. If I had something they sold me break, I am not sure I would even bother going to them.

Not that I would be afraid they wouldn't help, I just don't want 100 cooks in the kitchen.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

I have spent a ton of money with CameralandNY and Euro Optics. If I had something they sold me break, I am not sure I would even bother going to them.

Not that I would be afraid they wouldn't help, I just don't want 100 cooks in the kitchen.

They are high volume online dealers. You pay super low prices because you get no CS. CS costs money.

Buy from a repuatable local dealer with B&M its different. Whats even better is when you get better pricing than MAP and Online.

 

[FjallJager]

I wanted to add that this afternoon, I called two different major retails to ask the Nightforce or something else question, and I felt like both gave the exact same recommendation based on the customer support of Nightforce and nothing else.

The party line from both was that the image quality from Zeiss/Hendsolt, Swarovski/Kahles and Schmidt were better, but that the Nightforce is more in line with what I want in regards to customer service, usability of a 5 year old and optical toughness.

Thanks for those that contributed.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

An additional note on the general topic: image quality is a relatively minor player, once you reach a certain point in this conversation (that was the gripe with Kahles back in the gen1 and gen2 days: they were acting as though they were in the "good glass, next question" club and they absolutely were not.) Mechanical precision and accuracy is so, so much more important than optical quality - under MOST circumstances - that getting over the "good enough" bar with glass is really all you need. Beyond that, the difference the glass makes is subject to diminishing returns: the incremental improvement is small, the financial cost of the improvement is not.

This is why Nightforce does as well as they do: their glass is entirely serviceable and their mechanical precision and accuracy is generally exceptional.

If what you want is a super clean image, there are better options (Swaro/Hensoldt/TT are among the best I use regularly); but the simple truth is that the vast majority of shooters never can honestly attribute a missed shot or a missed opportunity on shot due to image quality. It is indeed nice to have, and does help alleviate eye strain when on the scope for extended periods of time; but it is so secondary as to not even be a part of the initial conversation for many shooters.

If you are buying for glass quality above all else, I'd question your needs in every other category; if it is a "nice to have", then weight the priorities. I'm not sure I know any shooter that would say NF and Kahles are in the same category for mechanical quality. The glass conversation is very subjective, but mechanical precision and accuracy is quantifiable, so that is usually where weight my decisions.

 

[Lowlight]

The Nightforce glass problem comes from the early days not today, beyond people repeating the same shit from before things changed. Nobody liked the NF Glass because it was flat. Resolution and color are not to be looked at the same way.

With the ATACR Series and beyond NF changed their prescription pretty hard to give it more pop and color. I was told back then they switched to a Leica style coatings and I was told at the time they went to Europe to flush out the look before spec'ing the glass from Japan. There is no difference between German and Japanese glass if you order it the same.

The Old NXS series was great for resolution but had a neutral color balance to it. A lot of scopes we use are color corrected for different applications, mainly started in hunting and lowlight to cut through difficult conditions in order to see things better. But have expanded to see other elements too. The Pop of the European scopes was missing so they added it.

Glass in our scopes is a prescription that can be adjusted, the NF prescription changed dramatically from the NXS Series to today.

How many people watched the NF Q&A Last night on FB ?

 

[LeftyJason]

They are high volume online dealers. You pay super low prices because you get no CS. CS costs money.

Buy from a repuatable local dealer with B&M its different. Whats even better is when you get better pricing than MAP and Online.

I call BS on that. Especially since they are both here as commercial supporters. Search for threads calling out how good Jason @jb1000br and Doug @gr8fuldoug are. CS is how you get customers and get them to return. Good CS doesn't cost money. Good CS is how you make money.

So nobody feels left out others that are great as well are @CSTactical, @LibertyOptics, and @Mile High Shooting. All are in no particular order. (If I forgot anybody else I'm sorry).

 

[CrabsandFootball]

I call BS on that. Especially since they are both here as commercial supporters. Search for threads calling out how good Jason @jb1000br and Doug @gr8fuldoug are. CS is how you get customers and get them to return. Good CS doesn't cost money. Good CS is how you make money.

So nobody feels left out others that are great as well are @CSTactical, @LibertyOptics, and @Mile High Shooting. All are in no particular order. (If I forgot anybody else I'm sorry).

Yea sorry i didn't mean to say they don't provide CS, I misspoke. They are great supporters. I have bought from all of those vendors and have nothing but great expereinces. They are however the exception to the rule. What I meant to say is most places do not give a shit about you after the sale. We see it here all the time where people are stuck between the manufacture and the dealer who washes their hands of the issue. Some of them also are not that cheap, and I won't name names, but you are paying for that service over some of the online shops that run super low margins.

Good CS costs money. Either the company is making less profit or its baked into the Price. CS = Labor Time = Money. There is really no other way to put it.