Rifle Scopes nightforce or schmidt and bender

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

I am not sure but this sounds like talking down,<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cartman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Just my opinion, and you're free to be offended, but there are a lot of things I think about someone shooting a deer at 900 plus yards -- none of them good.</div></div>

 

[dar1246]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

If you can shoot a deer at 900 yards. Awesome. What is the problem with that. They have a whole show about on TV LongRange or Best of the West on the Outdoor channel. If you are comfortable and shoot at those distances. Why not/

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

Okay, besides lowlight, I have never heard a person who owns a S&B, say, " I wish I would have bought a NF." Although I have heard many poeple say, " I have both and I like the S&B better." Also, there are the poeple that say, " I own a NF and someday I am going to get a S&B." I realize people do not want to afford an S&B, or should I say prioritize buying a S&B. IF you are using it to longrange hunt, there is no better scope. ( as of today. maybe in the future.)

 

[Eddie11]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

IMO, if you can afford a S&B buy it. Either one are great optics, both will serve you well.

 

[Rob01]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, besides lowlight, I have never heard a person who owns a S&B, say, " I wish I would have bought a NF." Although I have heard many poeple say, " I have both and I like the S&B better." Also, there are the poeple that say, " I own a NF and someday I am going to get a S&B." I realize people do not want to afford an S&B, or should I say prioritize buying a S&B. IF you are using it to longrange hunt, there is no better scope. ( as of today. maybe in the future.)</div></div>

Never saw someone win a sniper match with a NF and wish they had used an S&B. Hell Terry Cross has been doing it with a SFP NF for years now.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

I guess I should of said someone that does not get a kick back from nightforce. Nice nightforce add display Rob1. Also, said in hunting situation, The S&B ( in my opinion )is hands down better at light gathering and clarity.

 

[jwp475]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, besides lowlight, I have never heard a person who owns a S&B, say, " I wish I would have bought a NF." Although I have heard many poeple say, " I have both and I like the S&B better." Also, there are the poeple that say, " I own a NF and someday I am going to get a S&B." I realize people do not want to afford an S&B, or should I say prioritize buying a S&B. IF you are using it to longrange hunt, there is no better scope. ( as of today. maybe in the future.) </div></div>

My S&B is incrediably close to the Swarovski 20X60X80 SSpotter in resolution and the lowlight ability is incredible. I use mine for hunting they the better in this reguard when compaired to NF IME.

 

[Rob01]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I should of said someone that does not get a kick back from nightforce. Nice nightforce add display Rob1. Also, said in hunting situation, The S&B ( in my opinion )is hands down better at light gathering and clarity.</div></div>

Well Thunderbolt seeing as you are new here and have no idea what you are talking about in regards to me I will let it slide but for yours and anyone else's information I don't get any kickback from Nightforce. I shoot their scopes because they work. I have used USO, S&B, Premier, Leupold and Nightforce over my years of competing. After doing so I have found the Nightforce to give me everything I need to win matches. As your keen hunting observation skills detected I do put a banner at the bottom in my sig line so as not to hide the fact as it's nothing to hide or be ashamed of. Many people in the shooting community shoot for companies and use their products but that doesn't negate the fact that the products work.

And hitting a target, be it steel or some animal flesh, is hitting a target. We just don't shoot in bright daylight either and put many rounds down range in lowlight and almost no light conditions so your lowlight hunting conditions don't impress me.

Also for a guy who has come to the site to use it as his personal yard sale I wouldn't really speak to bad of others for speaking well of products they buy and use and showing the advantages of those products. So tread lightly with your personal attacks or you will find yourself on the outside looking in.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

First, Rob1 I am not here to impress you. I could care less if you win matches with night force scopes. As for pesonal attacks, look in mirror.
You are right I do not know you, I can only judge you from your actions. Sounds like my statements hit alittle close to home.
It is my opinion the S&B is the better of the two scopes.
Now, as for using the hide as a place to yard sale. So what, I am and there are many people that are getting the benefit. If you want to strut your cock feathers go ahead. You will be only hurting others that can benefit from my sales.

 

[Rob01]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

That's good because you don't. And when have I flung a personal attack? I haven't and don't. You brought up points and then attacked my integrity and I rebutted. Period. No attacks.

As for hitting to close to home, hardly. I just get sick and tired of people using it as an excuse to help their argument instead of sticking to the facts and specs in the discussion.

I don't need to strut my cock feathers in regards to your posts on this site. People can see the sales percentage of your 440+ posts over less than a month and make their own decisions if they are helpful to the site members or just using them to dump gear.

This argument in open forums is over and this thread will be locked

 

[Rob01]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

Thread is being opened at the request of the original poster so he can continue to get info on the scopes. Lets keep it on topic.

From a personal note, I would like to apologize to the Hide members for my part in the recent posts.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

I am not a fan of the SB scopes, personally i would like to throw everyone on our work guns into the deep ocean and never see them again. Things such as canted reticles,hazy glass, seals leaking, turrets not lining up, and they cannot take as much abuse as a NF. Granted not many on here will ever run a SB hard enough to have the problems i listed happen to them, but we have. I prefer NF and wouldnt look back. The F1 is a great scope, the ocular turning and 5 mils per turn doesnt bother me much at all. In the end its up to you completely as to what optic you buy, all the advice that has been given is worth exactly what you paid for it


Rob no need to apologize, wasnt anything wrong with anything that you said.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, besides lowlight, I have never heard a person who owns a S&B, say, " I wish I would have bought a NF." Although I have heard many poeple say, " I have both and I like the S&B better." Also, there are the poeple that say, " I own a NF and someday I am going to get a S&B." I realize people do not want to afford an S&B, or should I say prioritize buying a S&B. IF you are using it to longrange hunt, there is no better scope. ( as of today. maybe in the future.)</div></div>

I need to clarify this bullshit, because taken out of context he is clearly trying to "spin" what i said... I said when you take everything together, more than just how something "looks' the pound for pound champion is NF, does that mean the scopes are necessarily "better" in terms of "glass" no, not really, they are every bit as good, and have the absolute best tactical features out there, but there is more to a scope than just the glass, and people need to understand that.

If mister hunter wants to talk Low Light shooting for hunting, why wouldn't use you some of the European scopes designed for that, like the Swarovski PH series or the Zeiss 8X56 which is specifically made for the purpose... I truly like, use and abuse my S&B scopes, they are good, but I lose absolutely nothing in the equations with my NF scopes, period. It's recognized if you want to shoot in low light, the best power is 8X, so if you never tried a certain scope on 8X in low light, then you can't comment on a scope in Low Light.

I use the Spotter60 from Zeiss, that is not to say it is for everyone, or that the Leica couldn't give you a similar picture ? However I have broken 2 sport optic spotters, and look through one all day, everyday I am on the range. Its important to have the best glass I can get, with a Reticle, that is illuminated and is in a reasonable power factor. The fact it cost $5k doesn't make it the best for EVERYONE, the fact it is the best for ME is irrelevant to the guy who only uses a spotter once a month for maybe 2 hours in a weekend. Including the Spotter60, I have 4 Zeiss spotters, but I also own the Leica too, and frankly the Leica is great... but that doesn't help someone understand the difference by saying my narrow strip of life is the end all be all to any equation. I don't pretend to say the Spotter60 is the best for everyone, because I know better.

The same thing here, everything in context, and everything as viewed from space. That is how informed decisions are made.

 

[Lindy]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

Just to put what Frank said in another context, when I have my choice of the Zeiss Spotter60, or my Leupold 12-40X60 with a Gen II reticle, I usually choose the Leupold. Why? Because the Zeiss doesn't go below 20 power, and 20 is often too high for what I'm doing with a spotting scope.

As I said in another thread, it's not just about the glass.

"I've looked through a lot of scopes. I've rarely seen one where the optical quality made a difference to the shooter's ability to see the target well enough to shoot it, except in low-light conditions.

The primary items of interest to me in a scope are, with the highest preference first:

1. Reticle - is it one suitable for all lighting conditions, and can I use it easily for holdovers, holdunders, moving target leads, and wind holds? (That pretty much means a FFP reticle.)

2. Reliability. That means the scope must be rugged <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> the adjustment system must be repeatable and reliable.

3. Power Range. I'd like at least a 4-1 zoom ratio. For tactical shooting, I like a power range of 4-16. If I can get a 5-1 zoom ratio, I'd prefer 4-20.

4. Eye relief. Generous eye relief, and one which changes little with power changes.

5. Optical quality.

6. Price.

Getting wrapped around the axle about optical quality is, IMO, not useful. Yeah, a pretty picture is nice, and high magnifications are good at long distance - until the mirage kicks up, which pretty well moots optical quality.

Your mileage may vary."

 

[223ai]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

Lindy -

I think I've seen you mention that you have three good rifles, with three good scopes.I am curious to know what particular scope you use?

Thanks,
Josh

 

[dar1246]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

Either scope is great glass. Like I said I owned 3 NF and have no plans of ever getting rid of them. They get the job done. I only own 2 S&Bs. Both scopes are keepers. I would like the NF to have some of the features maybe not exact but similar.

I do put the scopes through the usage like some do. So I couldn't comment on durable of the scope. That would be a thing to also consider. But you would need someone else to comment on that. I would say most people who spend 2000 plus would take care of it, but sometimes your usage may call for out of the ordinary abuse.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

It's not a good idea to question Rob on his opinions based on the banners in his signature, Rob and the rest of Team Blaster are honorable men who give there advice/opinions based on experience, not sponorship.

 

[aqualung]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First, Rob1 I am not here to impress you. I could care less if you win matches with night force scopes. As for pesonal attacks, look in mirror.
You are right I do not know you, I can only judge you from your actions. Sounds like my statements hit alittle close to home.
It is my opinion the S&B is the better of the two scopes.
Now, as for using the hide as a place to yard sale. So what, I am and there are many people that are getting the benefit. If you want to strut your cock feathers go ahead. You will be only hurting others that can benefit from my sales. </div></div>

If I might interject Thunderbolt.

You're a wanker.

Rob is one of the nicest, most helpful guys you will find on the hide. He'll happily tell you how <span style="font-style: italic">he</span> wins matches, if he thinks it can help you. He is honest and whatever he says, you can take to the bank.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">CLEARLY</span> you have never had any personal dealings with Rob, so STFU. If you cannot say anything nice. DON'T SAY ANYTHING.

This is NOT a paid promotion from Rob. Just speaking up for a friend.

N

 

[Lindy]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

Josh - my primary scope is a Nightforce F1, 3-15X50 with a MLR reticle and 0.1 mil adjustments.

I also have two 6.5-20X50M1 Leupolds, with Premier Gen II reticles, and one 4.5-14X50M1 Leupold, also with the Gen II reticle.

 

[mjc2564]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

dar: This is logical thinking on your part. I watched an episode on "Best Of The West" where there was an alaskan moose taken at 890 yards with a 7mm magnum rifle. 2 shots and the moose dropped in its tracks. Shooting at distance is ethical if your skills are honed and you have the suitable weapon for a clean kill.

 

[dar1246]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

I think hunting at those distances is the prime example of this site. It would be to make the first round to hit the target. If you shoot mostly at 500 yards. It would be foolish to shoot at an animal at 1200 yards and expect a kill shot. There is a hell of a difference between 800 yards and 1200 yards.

That be said the scope at these levels will fair out in a qualified shooters hands. Rob mention Terry Cross with the Nightforce. I would believe Rob or Terry could out shoot most people with a lot of scopes. When it comes right down to it. The scope wont make the shooter. You have put their time in.
I think I would not try to put myself at their level. Now if it is just another internet shooter. I would think I would have a good chance at that. But I respect the person who has more experience than me. Who knows might even learn something.

This talk is not helping the guy who posted this. Last comment Both are great scopes. I stated what I thought. I do like them both. You will have to choose, either way you won't lose.
Dar

 

[Cartman]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lazzerhead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cartman. talking down about people out loud not kool. I was merely making an example as too what I want my gun to be capable of doing. I dont make shots unless they are clean kills (one shot kills). This shot might never present itself , or I might never get the bench time to feel confident of a shot like that. I just was making a point that with the right equiptment and practice, this shot is not unethical for the right rifle. </div></div>

Obviously you have a lot more people on here who see it your way. I don't want to sidetrack this thread, but I'm going to briefly touch on why I don't like the idea of shooting a deer at 900 or 1000 yards.

First, let me state that I wouldn't mind at all if you shot the deer at that range with unobtanium cartridges that travel at the speed of light.

The reality, however, is that bullet flight time at 1000 yards is about 1.5 seconds which is long than you think. Think about the lead you take on a moving target. Now think about the deer bolting -- for whatever reason. Now your perfect shot that you have the equipment and skill to make at a stationary target isn't so perfect. And I don't think any of you have the magical powers to predict the speed and direction of an animal that may start moving just after you fire. (Yes, I know the sound won't reach them that fast -- they may move for any number of unrelated reasons.)

Mind you, if you're a young guy in great shape, or riding a quad, out in the barren plains and are willing to quickly track down that wounded animal, I'm probably not going to gripe.

But if you're older, out of shape, or there are woody areas nearby, that deer may bolt into them and by the time you get to them the animal may be lost, left to die a slow agonizing death.

And yes, I realize many here won't give a rat's backside about that. Whatever. I'm not going to get into a fight about it.

I don't mind killing and eating animals. Some animals I don't mind just killing. But I do have a problem with leaving wounded animals tortured. People who like torturing animals are the ones that turn into serial killers.

Please don't bother arguing. I concede I'm probably outnumbered here. Several have made their position and established they can make a shot on a stationary target at that range. Great. Now I've made my point that I don't think you can be sure you'll make that shot if the animal starts to move in the 1.5 seconds and you miss the vitals.

I'm not out to convince or convert anyone. You have your position, and now you know there are folks out there who see it differently. That's all.

 

[CSTactical]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

The NF are great scopes but the S&B are better in some aspect such as glass but you pay for it. Nightforce to me is one of the best scopes on the market for the price especially the Second Focal Plane NF. Nightforce has been the most reliable scope we have sold so far!

Mason @ CST

 

[Mag 300]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

Nice shooting
Bill

 

[Emouse]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

I wish! Even at trade price the Premier scope comes in a few dollars more than the comparable PM2 is at retail here.

That said we have had two professional end user groups decide to change from SB to Nightforce due to the extreme tunnel effect noted on high mag in the SB's.

Prem's still have to make an impact here in what is at the moment a two horse market. NF are very good on price.

 

[OptedOut]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

Opinion, S&B

 

[USNIGHTGUNNER]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

S&B

 

[brandon9999]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

S&B IMHO, i own both, schmidt is clear, i can see hits on steel @ 1700 yd, painted with white enamel over brown rust prev primer and when mirage is REAL low. 8x32 NF is just not as clear. my opinion only

 

[dougm58]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

I think the glass is a bit better in S&B, but my Nightforce is plenty clear enough and it tracks well so I don't see a reason to upgrade beyond "excellent"

 

[Emouse]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

gotta agree with above,....Prem sales have tapered off to nothing and S&b have actually goten cheaper. Nightforce still an excellent buy for many

 

[346ci]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Emouse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">gotta agree with above,....Prem sales have tapered off to nothing and S&b have actually goten cheaper. Nightforce still an excellent buy for many
</div></div>

Cheaper? Where? I can't find a S&B PM 4-16X50 for less than $3K. I'd love to have a S&B but NF seems like more in my capable price range.

 

[Rob01]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

Mile High Shooting had them for $2650 I believe not too long ago. Check with www.sportoptics.com also. Call to get pricing.

 

[1luckeyt/a]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

I would like to say when it comes to shooting low light situations the S&B has the edge, on account of the MTC turret, and the ring that pops up after you pass one rotation. You don't have to worry about counting every click, or getting lost on multiple rotations. Once you locate and range your tgt, you simply turn the turret until you make contact with the zero stop. Now you can quickly dial on your your dope spinning your turret and just counting the significant clunk at every mil mark. You can do this with your eyes close and not get lost, so shooting in low light conditions it is no problem. That is just my opinion though. If I didn't have a fire team worth of kids I would have no problem spending the extra money for the S&B over a nightforce.

 

[cooper623]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

In the end it comes down to what you are willing to spend. the nightforce F1 3.5-15x50 is 99.9% of a scope as the Schmidt and Bender PMII 5-25x50. S&B glass is ever so slightly better but is it really worth the extra money. Also, as was stated earlier the Nissan is more reliable than the Aston Martin. You can beat a NF to hell. I've even heard of people claiming that they can run them over with their trucks whereas S&B is a more sensitive scope that you kind of have to treat nicely. Personally, I would go with the NF F1 if i were you but if a few minutes of shooting at dawn/dusk is worth the money to you then S&B is something to consider.

 

[Rob01]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cooper623</div><div class="ubbcode-body">whereas S&B is a more sensitive scope that you kind of have to treat nicely. </div></div>

Bullshit! S&Bs are very tough scopes. Many militaries use them. Hell many tactical shooters use them and beat the hell out of them, myself included. Get your facts straight before posting.

 

[poison123]

Re: nightforce or schmidt and bender

*shrugs* I prefer the eyebox if nothing else on the SB over the NF. Just feels easier to get behind.