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Non Lead Ammo push, could it threaten shooting sports as we know it?
- Thread starter xsn10s
- Start date
Akin to the "hole" in the ozone...
I seem to remember Lead/Pb is naturally occurring.
Strange everyone wasn't already "poisoned".
R
I seem to remember Lead/Pb is naturally occurring.
Strange everyone wasn't already "poisoned".
R
The right to shoot at that location. At my range in Charlottesville they started in the 40's. A few years back after the city expanded and pushed the county out, they tried to get them with a noise complaint. We laughed at them, we were there long before them and were grandfathered in.
I caution using absolutes, but i've not anything read anything that would suggest so, but it's not something i've really sought out either. As you point out, matches are held at ranges, but the targets are typically very spread out in my experience (for PRS, i don't shoot any other competetions). The ranges I mention are your typical 20-100 yard lanes with enclosed berms. When you have hundreds of thousands of lead objects embedding within a 10yard area year after year, it would be silly to not see how that could lead to above normal lead concentrations in the soil. There ARE studies on this. It mainly deals with abrasion as the projectile pushes through the soil. I'm always willing to read any studies with an open mind though. I think
Every element is naturally occurring lol. Usually in naturally occurring concentrations as well. Easy way to prove your point though. Show us how safe lead is in above normal concentrations in your body.
As is a steel blade.
Mines aren't evenly concentrated dispersion.
That's why they think it is worth mining there.
Like many metals lead oxide forms quickly when exposed to O2.
This makes erosion/dispersion much slower/harder.
I'd think after a couple of world wars Europe/parts of Europe would be unfit to live in...
This ^^^ is a hint.
R
Yes, no, not really. It's often hard to isolate and quantify cumulative affects over such a broad area. I'm sure there are localized areas that have high concentrations. Interesting point that I am curious about now. Doesn't seem to be a lot of studies on it at first glance.
Geostatistical Assessment of the Impact of World War I on the Spatial Occurrence of Soil Heavy Metals
Previous research showed a regional Cu enrichment of 6 mg kg[−1] in the top soil of the Ypres war zone (Belgium), caused by corrosion of WWI shell fragments. Further research was required since in addition to Cu, also As, Pb, ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I'm still trying to learn if lead in a hard form such as a pellet or fishing weight will actually break down in water. I can understand lead dust or very small particles, but yet to see anything where a chunk of lead will dissolve in water.
New York State Lead Ammunition Ban 2023 Legislation
Backcountry Hunters & Anglers is the voice for our wild public lands, waters and wildlife.
www.backcountryhunters.org
U.S. Senate Bill Fighting Lead-Ammo-Ban Proposals Protects Hunters’ Rights
Montana’s Sen. Daines says science—not emotion—must guide policymaking.
If lead were water soluble to an appreciable degree everyone would be poisoned. I think the issue is plant an animal uptake so increasing soil concentrations would increase the concentration uptake in our food.
A lead free bullet is a great idea but there is no practical alternative.
LITERALLY one of the most common elements in the soil.
Lead shot into a berm or into the dirt doesn't "leach" in the sense that people think it does.
The fish.
Holy fucksticks. Go buy some fish. When is the last time you saw a warning label about mercury on commercial caught fish?
If it was that dangerous, they wouldn't package it and sell it to you.
I bought 45 dollars worth of cobia and salmon Wednesday. I was issued no warnings in regards to that fish being dangerous.
I'll let you in on a little secret. They don't want you to be self sufficient. I live near and fish the Gulf regularly. I know numerous people who eat "mercury laden" fish on a weekly basis. Matter of fact, a great deal of their diet consists of fish.
They are either tough as hell, or there is a great deal of horse shit attached to "heavy metals" in fish.
Of course....they wouldn't use fear to control your behavior.....would they?
Lead and arsenic water limits have progressively gotten tighter since the 70s and 80s.
They are playing on your fear.
"Your water has lead in it."
"How much?"
"Any is too much!"
Water was my business for over 32 years.
Any time you chlorinate water, you have potential to produce contaminants that are in themselves harmful or carcinogenic.
Long ago, and far away, I was involved with a big project to discontinue a municipal water intake due to high tannin levels. It was resulting in "high" trihalomethane levels in the water.
There was enormous public outcry about the dangerous water.
The truth?
You would have had to drink ~1000 gallons a day, to reach a "level of concern" to one's health.
One thousand gallons.. not a hundred,, not ten.
This
Is
The
Issue
In most every instance of
manufactured fear of "heavy metals".
Eagles eating bullets....
Its a crock of horse shit.
Yes that could work at the city level. We're talking at Federal level a Federal lead ban could still applied to you all. Which is why I'm against this.
Not to any measurable degree.
you can eat a pure lead fishing sinker and nothing bad will happen before you crap it out. But take that same fishing sinker , and a mixture of vinegar and hydrogen peroxide (aka “dip”) dissolve just a little of the sinker (making lead acetate) and mix it in a drink, and enough will flat out kill you…. -it’s all about bioavailability, metallic lead is almost inert biologically, most lead salts are highly bioavailable and extremely toxic.
look up lead on this attached table - it’s LD50 is 450 (they forgot the mg/kg) but to get that it’s a bit over 700mg/kg in acetate form, so you need to dissolve a 2 ounce fishing sinker to get LD50 for a 100kg (220lb) person. To get enough elmental lead into your system to matter, you‘d need to finely powder or vaporise it and then be exposed to “lots”….
hunting bullets causing environmental harm is nothing short of bullshit
I'm with Sean, I made the switch to depleted uranium years ago cause it's better for the environment
You would have to make an aerosol and be exposed directly to the aerosol. This would have to happen multiple times. Lead won't dissolve in HCl (stomach acid) but forms lead chloride which is also basically insoluble in water thus the possibility of lead poisoning is very small.
Shooting indoors frequently and for long periods of time can lead to lead buildup though. Buddy of mine has to get chelation treatment.
I shot for longs periods when training for competition and training law enforcement. There were days where I shot a thousand rounds of lead swage revolver rounds a day to practice for matches. It's the powder/ aerosol that is what you need to be careful of.
The main lead exposure threat of indoor shooting is not from the projectile, but the lead azide/lead styphnate in the primer - becomes airborne lead vapour and other lead salts in the muzzle blast gasses
Now that's interesting. I thought mercury was in the primer and we needed to be careful of that. I wasn't aware of lead ( lead azide/ lead styphnate) being in the primer.
Yes, because the lead from the projectile is not readily fat or water soluble and wouldn't form an aerosol.
If I had to pick the problem compound it would be lead styphnate based on structure but I'm not a biochemist.
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Prairie drought pointed out as the reason for recent declines of waterfowl. No mention of lead that I saw. https://www.grandforksherald.com/sp...ldlife-service-says-in-breeding-trends-report
Accuracy drops but than again 3-4 inches either way won’t matter in most cases.
Just be sure of background.
Yup that's right I forgot about lead free primers. They were unreliable so no one makes them anymore if I remember correctly.
Because lead=must be baaaaddddd. Mmmmkayyyy
and the anti gun morons leading the push don’t understand chemistry and most likely don’t have the faintest clue what primers contain
Nah mercury fulminate is what they used to be, but haven’t been for many decades - it’s far too corrosive, and unstable over time. Eventually they’ll come up with lead fre compounds that work and are long term stable but not that I’m aware of yet
Mercury primers were also super corrosive, and the gasses were even more toxic than the lead ones
Here's another push to ban lead ammo:
"“The science is clear—lead-based ammunition and fishing tackle are harmful to wildlife and human health,” stated Jacob Carter, Research Director for the Center for Science and Democracy at the Union of Concerned Scientists. “The National Park Service should heed the evidence, protect our public lands and wildlife, and ban lead from our national parks.”"
arkvalleyvoice.com
"“The science is clear—lead-based ammunition and fishing tackle are harmful to wildlife and human health,” stated Jacob Carter, Research Director for the Center for Science and Democracy at the Union of Concerned Scientists. “The National Park Service should heed the evidence, protect our public lands and wildlife, and ban lead from our national parks.”"
Groups Petition to Ban Lead Ammunition and Tackle from National Parks - by Jan Wondra - Ark Valley Voice
The Goal; Protection of Wildlife, Human Health, and the Environment A rulemaking petition being advanced by a coalition of conservation and wildlife
arkvalleyvoice.com
This group comes across as ranchers. I say they are part of the liberal groups trying to push non lead ammo. https://onland.westernlandowners.org/2022/steward-tips/why-some-ranches-are-requiring-non-lead-ammo/
Exactly right. Lead ammo bans are back door gun & hunting bans, nothing more. California banned lead ammo while I was there. They said the California Condors were dying from eating all these lead bullets. Turns out Condors and Eagles don't dive to the bottom of a lake and eat off the bottom like ducks do. Fish & Game necropsy determined the Condors were poisoned by lead paint from all the old fire watch towers.
Now I live in N Idaho and there are Bald Eagles everywhere! We also are a major Superfund site due to all of the silver mining that has polluted everything with lead. And yet none of the Eagles are dying because they don't eat lead. Just a back door gun & hunting ban. All of the feel gooders who think the birds are dying should put there masks back on to protect them from the lead.
They've already tried it and it didn't work. Lighten up Francis. We're on the same side on this.
With pelts not bring much these days the coyotes are wreaking havoc on calves. One rancher lost 9 calves about a month ago. My contribution to cattle ranchers today. I actually waited for it to clear some cattle it was circling. Positive about what was behind it as it was moving along a hillside. Stopped it in a clearing. One and done with my HBAR 5.56 53gr vmax going 3170 fps. Lead.......... it's good for them.
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Oh wait...are we talking about the dangers of lead again?
I live for these moments to post this pic....
It usually catches at least one retard.
I live for these moments to post this pic....
It usually catches at least one retard.
I been casting lead bullets for years for black powder. Hasn’t fucked with me yet!
Agree, and it is not dry land where you hop out of the truck with the blown Chinese water hose or busted fan belt.
Remember at the start of the Ukraine deal, when the russian convoy sat busted for darn near a month. Did anyone find out why? I did a little digging and the only thing I came up with was just what I said, A fan belt will stop an engine, a water hose will flat stop an engine. Wheeled vehicles stop on crappy tires. All that stuff came from China. And that is why everything stopped, it just broke. Simple cheap easy parts busted, and china is very good at that.
Transfer that same mentality to the sea. Three months in and the stuff will start to fall apart. This is why I say if the Chinese start anything they need it done inside of six months tops. And the thing is they know it. But fixing it, well that is real rough. They know what it takes to build "quality", hell there are things that are built there that are "good". But costs exist with that, and they just can't make themselves pay those costs. So they will stick with the same old mindset that worked in 1950 korea. Toss so many bodies that there are just not enough bullets to kill them all. And if you bleed the ammo stocks dry in some stupid crap, well all the better for them.
Agree, and it is not dry land where you hop out of the truck with the blown Chinese water hose or busted fan belt. .....LOL
I wasnt aware the Ruskies got all that crap from the Chinese, but it stands to reason. Everybody wants cheap shit...until it breaks. Cheaper is usually more expensive.
I wonder if their stuff would even hold up for 3 months. GIGO-garbage in garbage out, though as you mentioned, they do produce some decent stuff. They[re saturating the American market with upper (not top) level audio electronics. We just cant copete with the labor/materials/shipping cost that are fully subsidized by the Chicom government.
FJB
Back to the OP
Could we make bullets out of super cold ice? Chilled down to -375%. They might last logngenough for the flight from barrel to target then melt leaving only a hole in the target or victim/prey?
Seems like I read years ago about a guy who stabbed an other guy to death with an icicle and got of because the murder weapon couldnt be found...non vetted.
Could we make bullets out of super cold ice? Chilled down to -375%. They might last logngenough for the flight from barrel to target then melt leaving only a hole in the target or victim/prey?
Seems like I read years ago about a guy who stabbed an other guy to death with an icicle and got of because the murder weapon couldnt be found...non vetted.
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