Not loving the Geissele SSA, maybe I'm the problem...?

[Naaman]

Hello all,

I've been running an SSA in for a while, and I keep thinking that the function of the trigger is not what I want (or maybe it's installed wrong... or out of spec?).

My issue is that after the reset, there is about a millimeter of take up. Contrast that to the handgun triggers I'm used to, which reset exactly to the "wall" such that applying more pressure will fire the weapon.

With the SSA, when I get the "click," and then go to shoot again, that tiny bit of take up just throws me off (and if I'm trying to make fast splits, it really messes with my rhythm--I'm not a competitive shooter, but shooting for splits helps me to measure my progress when training fundamentals).

Anyone else notice this? Is my trigger possibly installed incorrectly?

Thinking about switching to a single stage with a stronger reset. Purpose of the rifle is duty use. Recommendations?

 

[1911hombre]

Well, it IS a 2-stage trigger..... Are you confusing the "tiny bit of take-up" with the first stage?

 

[aslrookie]

You went with the lowest spec trigger. Most people consider the SSA-E the baseline standard.

 

[TheOE800]

You went with the lowest spec trigger. Most people consider the SSA-E the baseline standard.

I’d call a G2S lowest spec.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Well, it IS a 2-stage trigger..... Are you confusing the "tiny bit of take-up" with the first stage?

This. Sounds like you picked the wrong tool, a 2 stage trigger, for the job of speed.

 

[Naaman]

Well, it IS a 2-stage trigger..... Are you confusing the "tiny bit of take-up" with the first stage?

This. Sounds like you picked the wrong tool, a 2 stage trigger, for the job of speed.

Fair enough. I was wondering if that's just the way it is.

To be clear, though, I am NOT mistaking the take up with the first stage. My (current) understanding of a two-stage trigger is that upon reset, the trigger should "click" back only as far as the "wall" that separates the first stage from the second. Am I wrong about this?

Also, Geissele advertises the SSA as a "duty/military/self defense" type of trigger. I don't train just to shoot fast. Rather, I shoot fast in training to gauge my progress as a shooter (to answer the question of "how good am I at applying the fundamentals at a subconscious level?")

 

[Elnino31]

Sounds like the Geissele SD3G is what you’re looking for . It is a Super fast trigger… will make you look like garand thumb’s buddy Mojo.

The SSA is a good trigger, zero grit when it is ready to break. The SSA vs SSA-E example of carrot vs glass rod they reference is spot on

 

[Naaman]

You went with the lowest spec trigger. Most people consider the SSA-E the baseline standard.

Nah, that's way too light for what I want.

 

[Elnino31]

You will always see the first stage after trigger reset with the 2 stage triggers.

 

[Naaman]

Sounds like the Geissele SD3G is what you’re looking for . It is a Super fast trigger… will make you look like garand thumb’s buddy Mojo.

The SSA is a good trigger, zero grit when it is ready to break. The SSA vs SSA-E example of carrot vs glass rod they reference is spot on

Been thinking about one kinda like that, though Geissele themselves specifically say they do not recommend for duty use (not sure if using the heavier spring would change that or not, but I would likely choose the heavier spring).

I've also been considering the SSP single stage precision, but the pull weight is a little light for my taste. Also been thinking about a LaRue MBT...

 

[TonyTheTiger]

To be clear, though, I am NOT mistaking the take up with the first stage. My (current) understanding of a two-stage trigger is that upon reset, the trigger should "click" back only as far as the "wall" that separates the first stage from the second. Am I wrong about this?

I had to go finger my 2 stages because I've long since given up on going fast with them and couldn't remember how it worked. The Timney and Hiperfire 2 stages are like your Geissele. Upon reset you have to start the first stage process all over again. The Triggertech Diamond is how you would prefer it, but it still won't work how you like, because of it having zero reset force you have to consciously manually move your finger forward, and it's hard to stop at exactly the reset and you end up going all the way forward and starting from the beginning anyways.

The real question here is why anyone uses 2 stage triggers for anything other than precision builds?

ETA: make sure you try the SD3G before you buy. It's not for everyone. It's fast, but exactly like a really light DA revolver trigger with no wall, or indication of when it will go bang.

 

[Milf Dots]

I think the Geissele SSA strikes the right balance between speed and safety for a defensive carbine, but maybe the SSA-E would be closer to your wants, or their single stage SSP.

The top shooters seem to agree that the best shots happen when the breaking of the shot surprises you, so as a drill for diagnostic purposes, maybe focus less on trigger reset and more on just pressing the trigger on and off to fire rounds under time. Sometimes, changing up the training unexpectedly results in knowledge or performance gains.

 

[GhostFace]

Bill describes the SSA as having a carrot break and I think that is what you are experiencing. You may want to purchase a SSA-E spring, the SSAE has a hard icicle break. That will probably be more to your likin. Me? I like the SSA because it resembles a mil spec trigger but two stage and cleaner…

 

[Evintos]

Fair enough. I was wondering if that's just the way it is.

To be clear, though, I am NOT mistaking the take up with the first stage. My (current) understanding of a two-stage trigger is that upon reset, the trigger should "click" back only as far as the "wall" that separates the first stage from the second. Am I wrong about this?

Also, Geissele advertises the SSA as a "duty/military/self defense" type of trigger. I don't train just to shoot fast. Rather, I shoot fast in training to gauge my progress as a shooter (to answer the question of "how good am I at applying the fundamentals at a subconscious level?")

No experience with the SSA but I have 6 SD-E and 4 SD-C triggers and all of them resets to 99% (which is way into the first stage) and less than 0.5mm away from complete reset.

SD3-G I've had doubling on reset, even slow reset. SSP Flat I've had inadvertent bump fires.

Perhaps consider the ALG Defense ACT or the Bravo Company PNT.

 

[Naaman]

I had to go finger my 2 stages because I've long since given up on going fast with them and couldn't remember how it worked. The Timney and Hiperfire 2 stages are like your Geissele. Upon reset you have to start the first stage process all over again. The Triggertech Diamond is how you would prefer it, but it still won't work how you like, because of it having zero reset force you have to consciously manually move your finger forward, and it's hard to stop at exactly the reset and you end up going all the way forward and starting from the beginning anyways.

The real question here is why anyone uses 2 stage triggers for anything other than precision builds?

ETA: make sure you try the SD3G before you buy. It's not for everyone. It's fast, but exactly like a really light DA revolver trigger with no wall, or indication of when it will go bang.

After what I've experienced, I completely agree that 2 stage triggers are for precision shooting.

My mistake was in thinking that "2-stage" meant the same thing as, say, a Glock trigger, that resets no farther than the wall.

I think the Geissele SSA strikes the right balance between speed and safety for a defensive carbine, but maybe the SSA-E would be closer to your wants, or their single stage SSP.

The top shooters seem to agree that the best shots happen when the breaking of the shot surprises you, so as a drill for diagnostic purposes, maybe focus less on trigger reset and more on just pressing the trigger on and off to fire rounds under time. Sometimes, changing up the training unexpectedly results in knowledge or performance gains.

Ga-gillions of shooters can't be wrong, but... (here it comes... ) for ME, the pull weight (and by extension the reset) is a bit too light for my liking.

No experience with the SSA but I have 6 SD-E and 4 SD-C triggers and all of them resets to 99% (which is way into the first stage) and less than 0.5mm away from complete reset.

SD3-G I've had doubling on reset, even slow reset. SSP Flat I've had inadvertent bump fires.

Perhaps consider the ALG Defense ACT or the Bravo Company PNT.

You know, that PNT might be the answer. I'll look at the specs on the ACT, as well.

 

[Vivacious Stallion]

ETA: make sure you try the SD3G before you buy. It's not for everyone. It's fast, but exactly like a really light DA revolver trigger with no wall, or indication of when it will go bang.

This
I spent a decent amount of time trying working with the SD3G trigger and found that on a flat range it's fine. When I was using it for hogs in close, it was easy to throw or jerk a shot due to how the trigger works. I personally never had issues with doubling, but some certainly have. If you just want a blasting trigger it's definitely fast, but I don't find that I'm much if any slower with an SDE and I have much better control when breaking the shot.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

My issue is that after the reset, there is about a millimeter of take up. Contrast that to the handgun triggers I'm used to, which reset exactly to the "wall" such that applying more pressure will fire the weapon.

With the SSA, when I get the "click," and then go to shoot again, that tiny bit of take up just throws me off (and if I'm trying to make fast splits, it really messes with my rhythm--I'm not a competitive shooter, but shooting for splits helps me to measure my progress when training fundamentals).

I have a mix of 2x and 1x on various carbines, I like governments but often carry a G17 with the spongy stock trigger. Years ago I used to notice the differences moreso. I focus on pushing through both stages in the same seamless effort, on pushing the trigger straight back so as not to impart lateral force, and on pushing the trigger such that it actuates on the designed pivot point and does not impart a downward force at the end of the push - a truly clean trigger break. Now the only issue I have between swapping around all the different triggers is slapping. Slapping doesn't mean anything if you have a straight push. In short, it is all a personal preference matter that you can train around. 6 weeks of daily DF you won't even remember what the problem was.

 

[Winny94]

Hello all,

I've been running an SSA in for a while, and I keep thinking that the function of the trigger is not what I want (or maybe it's installed wrong... or out of spec?).

My issue is that after the reset, there is about a millimeter of take up. Contrast that to the handgun triggers I'm used to, which reset exactly to the "wall" such that applying more pressure will fire the weapon.

With the SSA, when I get the "click," and then go to shoot again, that tiny bit of take up just throws me off (and if I'm trying to make fast splits, it really messes with my rhythm--I'm not a competitive shooter, but shooting for splits helps me to measure my progress when training fundamentals).

Anyone else notice this? Is my trigger possibly installed incorrectly?

Thinking about switching to a single stage with a stronger reset. Purpose of the rifle is duty use. Recommendations?

Youre describing a 2 stage trigger. If you dont like it, get the SSP

 

[308pirate]

Two stage triggers were the standard for American semi auto battle rifles for decades. If you can't run one in a duty rifle, the problem isn't the trigger.

 

[Yaremkiv]

Sounds like what you need is a Triggertech Adaptable

 

[Jsp556]

The newest (silver) KAC drop in 2 stage triggers are what you want if you want the reset on the wall of the second stage.

 

[BCP]

I think you might be happier with a single stage trigger that isn't too heavy.

 

[Pappasniper]

I didn't read the entire thread, but you might like a single stage Larue MBT ( I think it is). I have one on one of my guns, pretty nice. But I am a hard tried and true SSA guy. I have so many guns with the SSA triggers, that my one SSA-E, I often get an accidental break when lining up on target. Larue 's are cheap too.

PB

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Two stage triggers were the standard for American semi auto battle rifles for decades. If you can't run one in a duty rifle, the problem isn't the trigger.

So was the 30-06/308 cartridge and iron sights, but if it's the wrong tool or even just not the preferred one, why not change? Life's too short to fit square pegs in round holes.

 

[308pirate]

So was the 30-06/308 cartridge and iron sights, but if it's the wrong tool or even just not the preferred one, why not change? Life's too short to fit square pegs in round holes.

Note I said "duty rifle" not "gaming gun"

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Note I said "duty rifle" not "gaming gun"

Noted. Not sure what it changes. I hear 2 stages are safer for duty use but if you're inherently unsafe enough to ND a reasonably heavy single stage you'll do it with any trigger.

Edit: I'm not disagreeing with you in that a 2 stage is acceptable for duty use and any competent person should be able to train through problems with it. Just saying if he wants and is allowed to use a single stage go for it. More experience with different systems can't be a bad thing.

 

[smoothy8500]

The top shooters seem to agree that the best shots happen when the breaking of the shot surprises you,

Hmmmmmmmmm, I can't imagine a "surprise" being conducive to accurate shot placement.

 

[thedude824]

Ive never used a 2 stage. We weren't able to modify/switch triggers in our duty rifles. That being said I have the Rise RA535 in one rifle and the Geissele SD-3G in another. Ive also got an ALG ACT, and a Rise 140. The Rise RA535 is incredible. It requires a tremendous amount of trigger control, but there is no creep, slack, take up, whatever you want to call it. The reset is incredibly short and tactile. Its just incredible. If it fit my ADM lower I'd have it in that gun too. I feel like I might have been content with the Geissele had I not had the Rise first. To me, the RA535 is what a single stage should be.

 

[Naaman]

Youre describing a 2 stage trigger. If you dont like it, get the SSP

Yup. Thanks to all the input here, I have a better understanding now. Looking at EVERYTHING Geissele makes, I'm wondering if I should just skip Geissele and go for the ALG or BCM trigger... or LaRue.

Two stage triggers were the standard for American semi auto battle rifles for decades. If you can't run one in a duty rifle, the problem isn't the trigger.

Thinking about it, I really only notice it in low/no stress training situations. When training under stress, the trigger makes no difference to me. So in a real world scenario, I'm sure it wouldn't matter either.

 

[Milf Dots]

Hmmmmmmmmm, I can't imagine a "surprise" being conducive to accurate shot placement.

If you watch the short Jerry Miculek video I posted with that you'll hear him say it in context... He's one of many top shooters who have said it.

ETA: bolded and underlined

 

[Mike_Honcho]

That said - that 'surprise' is happening inside a very small box of circumstances. Jerry is talking about a 'surprise' ignition within his wobble zone. That is no different than working on your mount + breaking the shot literally at the moment POA and POI line up, or running a plate rack and never allowing the weapon to come to complete stop while shooting through the rack. There is movement, the FS / dot / cross hair approaches POA, the shot is broken, the FS is tracked through recoil, the weapon remains in lateral motion to the next POA, FS falls, and the timing of the falling FS + lateral movement naturally aligns with the next POA, a visual register that the steel was hit and an audible register occur as you're moving the weapon laterally to the next plate while tracking the FS through the arc of recoil - that is the small box in which the 'surprise' happens. If you're shooting primarily one trigger, then the trigger is pre-staged as the FS falls through the arc.

 

[Guns&WhiteWater]

Ive never used a 2 stage. We weren't able to modify/switch triggers in our duty rifles. That being said I have the Rise RA535 in one rifle and the Geissele SD-3G in another. Ive also got an ALG ACT, and a Rise 140. The Rise RA535 is incredible. It requires a tremendous amount of trigger control, but there is no creep, slack, take up, whatever you want to call it. The reset is incredibly short and tactile. Its just incredible. If it fit my ADM lower I'd have it in that gun too. I feel like I might have been content with the Geissele had I not had the Rise first. To me, the RA535 is what a single stage should be.

Can you explain what you mean by requiring a tremendous amount of trigger control? I’m looking to upgrade my stock trigger and the RA535 sounds like a good option. Also what is the approximate trigger weight? I’m looking for something crisp in the 3-4 lb range.

 

[craigos]

i run all my ars with geissele , even my HKs. Likely have 20 to 25 of em. In that time had 2 come from them out of spec but called em up sent it to them, they sent me new ones. So if there is a issue they will take care of it, but it sounds like you need a single stage trigger.

 

[wade2big]

Its not just you OP. I have a few SSA-E triggers and Larue MBT two stage triggers. All of them reset to the very beginning of the trigger pull (first stage). It would be best of both worlds if they reset to the second stage wall. They do not. This means you have both a longer pull and a much longer reset. I like them for anything slow fire but prefer single stage triggers for carbine use.

 

[Naaman]

Its not just you OP. I have a few SSA-E triggers and Larue MBT two stage triggers. All of them reset to the very beginning of the trigger pull (first stage). It would be best of both worlds if they reset to the second stage wall. They do not. This means you have both a longer pull and a much longer reset. I like them for anything slow fire but prefer single stage triggers for carbine use.

When I first learned to shoot faster, I learned on a Glock (learning to fire again right after the reset with no travel beyond reset). I then applied that to my mil-spec-triggered rifle, and then swapped to the SSA, thinking it would be like my Glock and be faster with a shorter reset than mil-spec...

Live and learn, right?

 

[CK1.0]

Geissele AR triggers suck, all of them. There, I said it.

Whenever someone tells me they don't, what they are really telling me is that they don't know what a really good AR trigger actually feels like, and they probably paid too much money for a not so great one because it said Geissele on the box.

Hiperfire Eclipse/Comp/Reflex or TriggerTech Diamond... Hiperfire has a better reset and will set off any primer known to man but only goes down to ~2lbs, TT goes lighter, like ~1.5lbs - 14ish ounces, feels crispier somehow (which is crazy because the Hiperfire is crisper than about anything else), dead reset though.

Both/either are (arguably) too light for duty though.

Hiperfire has a duty use Sharp Shooter trigger that you should try, best thing I've ever felt that could still probably get approved for a "work gun".

 

[Enbloc]

For duty guns I like a lighter 2 stage trigger.
I'm a big fan of the Geissele SD-C trigger for work rifles

 

[Evintos]

Geissele AR triggers suck, all of them. There, I said it.

Whenever someone tells me they don't, what they are really telling me is that they don't know what a really good AR trigger actually feels like, and they probably paid too much money for a not so great one because it said Geissele on the box.

Box?!? Hell, I just bought a couple more on Black Friday and they still come in little bags with the brown wax paper inside.

 

[acudaowner]

you might be the problem i mean never being happy is just bad . then again you might not have found the trigger you liked yet . best of luck in finding that trigger than just makes you smile when you get the chance to use it .

 

[st1650]

I got late this thread and I have a few SDE and SSA and I also think Geissele is way overrated. But in my opinion, if you know what you’re doing, nothing comes close to a properly tuned,
timed JP original FCS. It’s a lot of work and I’m not sure about being the right choice for “duty” but it’s absolutely the best single stage/reset. Zero creep, clean break, shortest reset and with a 4lbs spring, not overkill and very reliable.

 

[Naaman]

Geissele AR triggers suck, all of them. There, I said it.

Whenever someone tells me they don't, what they are really telling me is that they don't know what a really good AR trigger actually feels like, and they probably paid too much money for a not so great one because it said Geissele on the box.

Hiperfire Eclipse/Comp/Reflex or TriggerTech Diamond... Hiperfire has a better reset and will set off any primer known to man but only goes down to ~2lbs, TT goes lighter, like ~1.5lbs - 14ish ounces, feels crispier somehow (which is crazy because the Hiperfire is crisper than about anything else), dead reset though.

Both/either are (arguably) too light for duty though.

Hiperfire has a duty use Sharp Shooter trigger that you should try, best thing I've ever felt that could still probably get approved for a "work gun".

I will check that out. Thanks for the info.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Geissele AR triggers suck, all of them. There, I said it.

Agreed. Been trying for years to understand the Geissele hype.

 

[st1650]

Same as the Larue hype, Magpul hype and especially ... Vortex hype.

 

[Milf Dots]

I'm always eager to learn new things, so who are the U.S. aftermarket trigger makers and which specific models of DUTY rated triggers, meet ALL the following?:


1) Proven by at least a decade of hard duty use by thousands of SoF troops in combat, and LE SWAT teams

2) Aftermarket triggers built and marketed for duty/combat use

3) Not a DMR type trigger model

4) Made in USA

5) Has the production capacity to supply .Mil, LE, and the consumer markets


Again, which makers meet all of the above criteria?

 

[st1650]

I'm always eager to learn new things, so who are the U.S. aftermarket trigger makers and which specific models of DUTY rated triggers, meet ALL the following?:


1) Proven by at least a decade of hard duty use by thousands of SoF troops in combat, and LE SWAT teams

2) Aftermarket triggers built and marketed for duty/combat use

3) Made in USA

4) Has the production capacity to supply .Mil, LE, and the consumer markets

KAC 2 stages ? Geissele SSF/SSA ?

 

[Milf Dots]

KAC 2 stages ? Geissele SSF/SSA ?

Thanks!

 

[st1650]

But then again ... in a CQB high stress scenario... are you really going to perform better with a Geissele than your typical Colt/BCM factory? Is the factory trigger preventing you from making headshots at say 50 yards ? Or quick double taps ?
If so maybe practice is the remedy rather than an after market trigger.
For a duty rifle, I’d definitely put reliability at the top of the list rather than how close it feels to a 4oz TT Diamond.

 

[Milf Dots]

But then again ... in a CQB high stress scenario... are you really going to perform better with a Geissele than your typical Colt/BCM factory? Is the factory trigger preventing you from making headshots at say 50 yards ? Or quick double taps ?
If so maybe practice is the remedy rather than an after market trigger.
For a duty rifle, I’d definitely put reliability at the top of the list rather than how close it feels to a 4oz TT Diamond.

I don't necessarily disagree. My question was an attempt to learn about more duty trigger options because most of the alternatives mentioned are very light comp or sharp shooter/DMR triggers.

 

[thedude824]

Can you explain what you mean by requiring a tremendous amount of trigger control? I’m looking to upgrade my stock trigger and the RA535 sounds like a good option. Also what is the approximate trigger weight? I’m looking for something crisp in the 3-4 lb range.

I'm going to try to explain it. There was a steep learning curve. I only put my finger on the trigger when I'm about to fire. The Rise is maybe a 3lb trigger pull, but it is immediate. The best way to describe it is as soon as I started thinking about pulling the trigger, it fired. There is no creep, or slack, or any movement. It resets with an equally minute movement. In some of my moving or running drills, there is absolutely no slack between putting your finger on the trigger and firing. When your heart is pumping the trigger pull is imperceptible. After a week or so I completely fell in love with it. I retired from LE due to a cervical injury and I have tremors in my hands as a result. This trigger takes the fine skill out of a trigger pull that I dont have.

 

[CK1.0]

KAC and Geissele are the clear champions/offenders when it comes to the over-priced AR-shit category IMO. They both have, and have had, big military contracts... which also gives them the: affiliation, time, and numbers, to claim that they're more awesome and "proven" than any of the newcomers. That is the club they carry and which they use in the AR market to bash the civilian consumer with as justification for their outrageous prices.

Uncle Sam also buys hammers for ~$100 (probably more) when we all can go to Lowe's/Home Depot and get one as good or better, Made in America, maybe the same one, for $25. Price does NOT equal performance when it comes to anything Mil-Spec.

Ultimately, if an agency is going to allow a guy to personally spec out one of his duty weapons, any component that the user and armorer agree is robust and safe enough for work, and satisfies that cruel bitch liability, should make the grade.