I would consider the Tubb Final Finish or Neco fire lapping products to help with these bore issues with respect to roughness and burrs around gas port. I haven't used it personally but it a suggestion that if used properly won't make things worse.
Nothing like a brand new rusted barrel, didn't even need to scope this one! :)
- Thread starter ToddM
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Yeah great I noticed that and said I didn't know if the tool went that small...it does ..great.
BUT ITS FOR LOW ALLOY STEEL, & ALUMINUM AS THE OPENING STATEMENT...So no need to read further. It's not a Precision instrument, but for general deburring of softer metals....same old patent I tried 40 yrs ago but for holes about a 1/4 " in dia. We discarded it back then. Its design is not for rifled barrels or it's steel. No one should even consider it. You want the gas port hole flat, on the same plane as the surfaces, land and groove of the rifled barrel. Not some uncontrolled gouged out champher making the problem much worse. I've used the tool, and rejected it for what it was designed for...supposedly...40 yrs ago.
I believe it has application in general deburring but where tighter tolerences and thin walls are used it over champhers, enlarging holes out of print or leaves a partial burr.
Its use is "food grade" ..."tolerences are not critical", ..."substandard machining acceptable." On your blueprint ...then you are good togo with this tool for deburring.
Are you sure, every barrel dead center at a point in the rifling you prefer no mater the length of the gas port or twist...always perfectly centered. How many have you actually inspected, personally?
How did you measure that ...perfection? In a temperature controlled clean room?
When you inspected the drilled hole, did you notice how out of round and jagged it really is?
So how did you find dead center of the out of round hole? Was it even dead center in the diameter barrel to begin with? How was all this perfection measured?
The facts
Drilled holes look and are horriblely out of round with high magnification measuring tools and digital cameras. Brand new CNC machines must be qualified to see if they meet the production standards for the jobs the shop is generally likely to assign to it. I run test to see where the machine is lacking in tolerence holding capabilities. You might be surprised, everyone thinks they are perfect..far from it in some cases barely adequate..and it can not be programmed out in many cases, depending on use
So ya like you Compass Lake barrels good.... excellent luck with them great... keep buying them..Does not mean other brands are trash, but it also doesn't mean they all good either, just the way it really is...always exceptions.
But where the gas port hole is located in the rifling form has nothing to do with the barrel being good or bad. Anywhere is good as long as the material around the hole is on the same plane as the rifling form...no burrs, or very light burrs that can be polished off. Some have swaged up metal around the hole that is totally unacceptable no matter who makes it.
I redrill with a quality drill to next larger drill size in the Bridgeport mill with heavy dark cutting oil, cleans the swage part down then lapp and polish. The bullets zip buy in a fraction of millisecond with nothing to scrape off the bullet jacket...no mater where the gas port is in the rifling form. Check it out with your borescope, no copper build up there.
This is incorrect.
Lots of top tier gas gun blanks will come with the gas port already drilled correctly in the middle of a groove.
Krieger ships theirs out as such.
The builder works backwards from that to correctly install the barrel extension and chamber.
I know of at least 2 old school shops that would buy Shaw, Douglas or Shilen blanks (button rifled of course) by the hundreds.
First thing they did was use a home-made timing wand to locate the correct gas port location in the center of a groove. Then they would drill the gas port and work backwards from that, same as with users of cut rifled barrels mentioned above.
I have an IQ of like 32 and even I can handle the barrel extension timing and headspace when starting the gas port as my origin.
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Its not necessarily rust. Had something similar happen with a few BRAND NEW from the factory LMT MWS Stainless barrels. One of the guys who bought it called up bitching about the bore having red shit in it and thinking its rust. Knowing I had just gotten the barrel from LMT (at the time they had a 2 year backlog on these, so this thing was freshly machined and not sitting around in a warehouse for months/years) It made no sense.
I told him to go scrub out the barrel using the usual method (few wet patches of Boretech or whatever, soak a nylon brush and give it 20-30 strokes, then wet another patch to push through, then dry patches till its clean). And it all went away with zero pitting or evidence it was ever there.
So I checked the other barrels I got and yup, same red crap in there. 5 minutes and they were all cleaned out. I dont know how the bore would even rust on a new stainless barrel unless you packaged it at 100% humidity and it say for a while. It could be some sort of residue from a protectant or even cutting fluid.
Burrs on AR barrels is an issue from forever, Once you get enough rounds to break in the barrel they will be gone/knocked down anyway and not an issue. By then you will start to see gas port erosion anyway which will make the borescope OCD kids go crazy. Gun will still shoot.
Cheap bore scopes are one of the worst things to happen to this community. People don't know what they are looking at most of the time and make posts complaining about it without even shooting the damn thing to see if it matters.
I told him to go scrub out the barrel using the usual method (few wet patches of Boretech or whatever, soak a nylon brush and give it 20-30 strokes, then wet another patch to push through, then dry patches till its clean). And it all went away with zero pitting or evidence it was ever there.
So I checked the other barrels I got and yup, same red crap in there. 5 minutes and they were all cleaned out. I dont know how the bore would even rust on a new stainless barrel unless you packaged it at 100% humidity and it say for a while. It could be some sort of residue from a protectant or even cutting fluid.
Burrs on AR barrels is an issue from forever, Once you get enough rounds to break in the barrel they will be gone/knocked down anyway and not an issue. By then you will start to see gas port erosion anyway which will make the borescope OCD kids go crazy. Gun will still shoot.
Cheap bore scopes are one of the worst things to happen to this community. People don't know what they are looking at most of the time and make posts complaining about it without even shooting the damn thing to see if it matters.
Yes.
A properly configured timing tool will work across all normal twist rates and breech-to-port lengths.
The port doesn't have to be "perfectly centered" in the groove. Just needs to have some groove surface remaining on each side of the port hole before getting to the corner of the land/groove intersection.
The 2 old school shops I mentioned above would push a lead lap style slug down the barrel until it was in the gas port area after locating and marking the correct port position on the blank.
They would drill the port, remove the lead slug, follow up with a reamer and then remove the blank from the fixture.
No jagged holes. No out of round holes. No burrs.
This type of statement is why Emos cut themselves. . . . .
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No sir.
We did take a lot of scalps during that time period with that round though.
Now days, there is very little trigger time at all and when I do, it is usually 30Hate. Go figure.
Doing this for living 60 to 70 hours a week is the devil.
If someone wants to fuck up their shooting time, just work with rifles for a living. . . . Adulting sucks.
Besides, 6.5-08AI is so 2004, LOL...
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I built a 6.5-08AI and a 30* 243AI because of that article, less than a year later work got in the way so I know what you are saying.No sir.
We did take a lot of scalps during that time period with that round though.
Now days, there is very little trigger time at all and when I do, it is usually 30Hate. Go figure.
Doing this for living 60 to 70 hours a week is the devil.
If someone wants to fuck up their shooting time, just work with rifles for a living. . . . Adulting sucks.
Besides, 6.5-08AI is so 2004, LOL...
./
I disagree somewhat. I agree that absolutely we see people get too spun up over what they see in a borescope, but defects in barrels speak to the quality of the barrel, period. It's not always about just accuracy, it's about how long that accuracy lasts, how bad the barrel fowls, etc. etc. A barrel that's been damaged by corrosion/pitting will fowl/corrode/pit that much easier/more as time goes on. Sure, I've seen barrels that looked horrible inside shoot great, but if they fowl badly/quickly or take a long time to "shoot in" after cleaning those are also undesirable qualities. Also I've yet to see anyone argue that given all other things equal a barrel with a pristinely prepared inner surface/throat/rifling is not preferred over one that has significant surface defects. Can you have a great looking barrel interior that shoots like crap, sure other factors are important as well. However one thing is for sure, barrel interior defects are not doing anything beneficial.
According to the shop notes the "light discoloration" was from the stress relieving process. All I know is what I read on the internet on that topic, but it seems like the process for that is simply heating the barrel, holding it at temp for awhile and slowly cooling. It seems like this is typically done in an inert vacuum furnace, so I'm not sure how that could create corrosion, and it doesn't seem like any fluids are involved, unless of course they are not doing it in a vacuum environment. Others have complained of a dark red/bronze colored even coating in the barrel with WC in the past, and it appears that is from the fluid used during button rifling. Having seeing pictures of that posted by others, this definitely is not that.
I'll know pretty quickly tomorrow Fedex should be dropping the barrel off.
In all fairness you are making a ton of assumptions.
-It's not always about just accuracy, it's about how long that accuracy lasts, how bad the barrel fowls, (You don't know how it shoots or how it will wear in over time,ect)
-A barrel that's been damaged by corrosion/pitting will fowl/corrode/pit that much easier/more as time goes on. (You don't know its actually damaged other than some superficial pictures from a cheap BS. Its Foul btw, not a bird)
- You don't know how it will foul, you don't know how it will shoot, or how it will break in.
The LMT barrels I saw the same thing in were Rifle Cut, they all shot awesome once broken in. What harm is there in shooting this, and either finding its not an issue (Most likely course of action) or it is and you send it back (and since you documented it all, should be easy to RMA).
Also, Wilson Combat at least on the AR side is like mid tier at best. They have a lot of issues with their AR's especially ones in obscure calibers like .224 valk where the gas system is not a big wide margin for success. If you want a premium product, then there are plenty of vendors like Terry and others mentioned that will make you a barrel with all the care in the world. But you will pay for it. There is no free lunch, unless you are shooting a WOA.
The irony is in all the time people spend worrying about this or that or what could have, they could go shoot, get the real results and be on to more important things.
Just some thoughts.
-It's not always about just accuracy, it's about how long that accuracy lasts, how bad the barrel fowls, (You don't know how it shoots or how it will wear in over time,ect)
-A barrel that's been damaged by corrosion/pitting will fowl/corrode/pit that much easier/more as time goes on. (You don't know its actually damaged other than some superficial pictures from a cheap BS. Its Foul btw, not a bird)
- You don't know how it will foul, you don't know how it will shoot, or how it will break in.
The LMT barrels I saw the same thing in were Rifle Cut, they all shot awesome once broken in. What harm is there in shooting this, and either finding its not an issue (Most likely course of action) or it is and you send it back (and since you documented it all, should be easy to RMA).
Also, Wilson Combat at least on the AR side is like mid tier at best. They have a lot of issues with their AR's especially ones in obscure calibers like .224 valk where the gas system is not a big wide margin for success. If you want a premium product, then there are plenty of vendors like Terry and others mentioned that will make you a barrel with all the care in the world. But you will pay for it. There is no free lunch, unless you are shooting a WOA.
The irony is in all the time people spend worrying about this or that or what could have, they could go shoot, get the real results and be on to more important things.
Just some thoughts.
Show me a barrel that's pitted, surface damaged, has gas port chip outs/burrs etc. that fowls less than the same barrel that's been properly machined and surfaced with a nicely prepped gas port, and we can hypothesize about how it doesn't matter. I'll wait.....
If it had just been the corrosion, I might have attempted to clean it out, but even then you give the manufacturer to the opportunity to claim it was damaged by the owner, seen it before, no thanks.
I do agree that WC is clearly not top tier and you should expect better quality at those prices, but a heavily burred/chipped gas port should not happen even on a cheap barrel. The logic that it doesn't matter would be like buying a race engine block with scarred piston walls and the shop saying "Just drive it, it will be fine". and it might till it invariably seizes a piston.
What really probably upsets gun/barrel manufacturers is that now that everyone can buy a really good bore scope for under $100, those manufacturers that are cutting corners and not doing it right, are getting called out for it. Many have no doubt enjoyed being able to do a level of quality (or lack of) that would not be accepted in almost any other precision machined part industry for decades. 20 years ago even most small gun shop gunsmiths didn't have a good bore scope.
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Match directing will do that too. Sucks the fun right out of shooting.
You guys are bitching, but people pay good money for that kind of patina
Lol, reading this reminded me of people seeking out the cigars with a bunch of "plume" on them at their local cigar shop. Cigar connoisseurs would brag to their buddies about how much amazing "plume" was on their favorite sticks because to them it was a sign of the cigar's high quality and proper aging. This went on for decades, until someone finally put the "plume" under a microscope and proved that it's actually mold!
Hell, even the tropical dials on some old watches is technically a defect in the materials that didn't age well. Tropical dials are highly sought after and watches with one sell for higher prices. At least that defect can have good aesthetics!
Honestly, I have no doubt in my mind that what you said has happened or will eventually happen. Someone will claim something stupid like how the rust and pitting is a great indicator that the barrel is made from a very special high carbon steel and this is how you can tell that the barrel is legit! Don't worry about the pits in the barrel, they'll just fill in with copper and make a super smooth bore, just like seasoning your cast iron skillets! Lol
It already has, I've read on plenty of forums over the years that various internal barrel issues are not an issue because they just fill in with copper and that actually makes a smoother better barrel than a clean barrel and that having too smooth a barrel is a bad thing. Heck we see it every thread on a bore scope picture, where guys get beat up when they expose internal barrel defects. It's not uncommon to hear that the reason barrels need X rounds to perform after cleaning is that you're laying down fowling over the barrel imperfections, getting better seal on the bullet, etc. I suspect it's much more complicated than that, I've had barrels I haven't cleaned for 500 rounds that still had plenty of visible barrel imperfections in them, fowling was not filling in pits, chatter marks etc. the whole length of the barrel, even on the lands.
Kind of like how titanium has become the best metal for every use over the last couple decades, yet for many things it's a horrible choice, but once you slap "Titanium" on some marketing it becomes uber premium even if it's a horrible application to use it in.
The same is true for 1911 buyers that a couple decades ago (Les Baer's probably started this trend) decided the only thing they cared about was how tight the slide to frame fit was as a judge of quality. Meanwhile a tight slide to frame means almost nothing for accuracy and always hurts reliability, especially in dirty environments. Pretty soon low to mid 1911 manufacturers were tightening slide fits at the cost of reliability, 1911 issues went through the roof.
Digital cameras when they first came out, all anyone cared about was the number of megapixels, more had to be better. Yet the highest megapixel sensors were typically the ones with the most noise and worst light sensitivity. I can't even imagine how many point and shoot digital cameras were sold repeatedly to the same customer just because it was the same camera but they added 1MP more to to the number every 6-12 months.
Most recent example in shooting is the "break-in" myth. Manufacturer's have conned people into thinking that guns need 500-1000 rounds of ammo to "break-in" to function correctly. If you have any kind of problem with a gun these days functioning, the manufacturer is likely to tell you it just needs break-in and if it's still a problem in another 500-1000 rounds we'll take a look at it. So while they laugh all the way to the bank for cutting manufacturing corners in tolerances/fit/finish, you spend another $1000+ in ammo and frustrated shooting sessions hoping the poorly fit/finished parts wear in to the point they function. Sadly customers believe it, genius really, just more proof consumers as a whole are idiots. Now almost anytime someone posts an issue with a new gun on various forums, especially handgun, you'll see replies that it probably just needs more "break in".
Won't see the barrel till tomorrow, seems it got lost in GA for a couple days in transit. Side rant, I will never understand why companies like gun/optic/knife etc. put their name on shipping labels instead of something generic. I'd imagine for internal theft in shipping companies, which seems to be getting only more rampant, that packages with "Wilson Combat", "B&H Photo", "Knifecenter" etc. are just asking for packages to "get lost" in shipping.
Kind of like how titanium has become the best metal for every use over the last couple decades, yet for many things it's a horrible choice, but once you slap "Titanium" on some marketing it becomes uber premium even if it's a horrible application to use it in.
The same is true for 1911 buyers that a couple decades ago (Les Baer's probably started this trend) decided the only thing they cared about was how tight the slide to frame fit was as a judge of quality. Meanwhile a tight slide to frame means almost nothing for accuracy and always hurts reliability, especially in dirty environments. Pretty soon low to mid 1911 manufacturers were tightening slide fits at the cost of reliability, 1911 issues went through the roof.
Digital cameras when they first came out, all anyone cared about was the number of megapixels, more had to be better. Yet the highest megapixel sensors were typically the ones with the most noise and worst light sensitivity. I can't even imagine how many point and shoot digital cameras were sold repeatedly to the same customer just because it was the same camera but they added 1MP more to to the number every 6-12 months.
Most recent example in shooting is the "break-in" myth. Manufacturer's have conned people into thinking that guns need 500-1000 rounds of ammo to "break-in" to function correctly. If you have any kind of problem with a gun these days functioning, the manufacturer is likely to tell you it just needs break-in and if it's still a problem in another 500-1000 rounds we'll take a look at it. So while they laugh all the way to the bank for cutting manufacturing corners in tolerances/fit/finish, you spend another $1000+ in ammo and frustrated shooting sessions hoping the poorly fit/finished parts wear in to the point they function. Sadly customers believe it, genius really, just more proof consumers as a whole are idiots. Now almost anytime someone posts an issue with a new gun on various forums, especially handgun, you'll see replies that it probably just needs more "break in".
Won't see the barrel till tomorrow, seems it got lost in GA for a couple days in transit. Side rant, I will never understand why companies like gun/optic/knife etc. put their name on shipping labels instead of something generic. I'd imagine for internal theft in shipping companies, which seems to be getting only more rampant, that packages with "Wilson Combat", "B&H Photo", "Knifecenter" etc. are just asking for packages to "get lost" in shipping.
They must be doing something special for you because my CLE weren't in the center of a groove. Actually had to return 2 Bartlein for poor accuracy that Frank replaced. Gas ports blown out.... grabbing jackets
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They must be doing something special for you because my CLE weren't in the center of a groove. Actually had to return 2 Bartlein for poor accuracy that Frank replaced. Gas ports blown out.... grabbing jackets
I've had the same issue with Craddock Precision...
I'm assuming the replacement barrels performed quite well? And it wasn't difficult having frank send you a replacement?? And since you talked with frank this must have been several years ago.
I've been buying barrels from CLE since 2008 so easily a 100 barrels I've purchased over the years and I've had to send a couple back myself but shit happens.
Where your barrels custom orders or just off the shelf options?
Yep, 2 custom Bartlein orders few years ago. Talked to Frank directly and he had me send them back, called me personally and told me gas ports blew out which happens depending on where the gas port hole lands when drilled... and haven't ordered any since
Both times he replaced them and yes, the replacements shot much better. Not the most accurate AR 223 barrels I've owned with 75/77gr bullets or tested but night and day difference on target then the first 2 that had fliers all day long after testing lots of powder and bullet combinations... but with Frank's 52gr SMK load the replacements shot stupid small 100yd groups...
Honestly, ...the most consistently accurate AR 223 barrels I've owned to date in all the years I've been doing this are as follows and I've easily tested 250+ AR 223 barrels and counting. My sample size isn't 1 of each
1. WOA 20" SDM ( Wilson blank)
2. Keystone 20" Service Rifle profile Krieger
3. Rainer Ultramatch 20"
4. WOA 20" Bartlein 4 groove
With a good blank and good machine work, lots of good shops out there...
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So the repaired barrel was returned today. It seems like they did get the discoloration out, I don't see any heavy obvious pitting left. The finish of the barrel interior looks quite a bit more polished than before, could be whatever they used to clean up the discoloration.
The gas port is better, I wouldn't call it great, still looks like it has some burrs that sit higher than the land does. Still looks like there's part of the land that is "smooshed" up into a burr on the muzzle side of the hole (lower side of gas port pic below).
Probably the biggest thing I noticed now that it's clean, or perhaps because I was not focused so hard on the gas port/corrosion, is what I assume are chatter marks, or perhaps the barrel was not well lapped, down probably 90% of the barrel on the lands. Should be a good copper/fowling sample collector.
We'll see how it shoots. Definitely be the last WC barrel I buy. Turn around was fast, I guess that's something.
The gas port is better, I wouldn't call it great, still looks like it has some burrs that sit higher than the land does. Still looks like there's part of the land that is "smooshed" up into a burr on the muzzle side of the hole (lower side of gas port pic below).
Probably the biggest thing I noticed now that it's clean, or perhaps because I was not focused so hard on the gas port/corrosion, is what I assume are chatter marks, or perhaps the barrel was not well lapped, down probably 90% of the barrel on the lands. Should be a good copper/fowling sample collector.
We'll see how it shoots. Definitely be the last WC barrel I buy. Turn around was fast, I guess that's something.
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Unfortunately, Wilson Combat quality has plummeted over the last year or so. The Reddit AR15 community has numerous examples of bad barrels and bad BCG’s that WC let slide and sold (some as blems, some not). I’m not sure what’s going on over there. They used to be really good but the QC has really taken a dive. The only thing they seem to do consistently well is their AR triggers which are excellent.
For a long time Shaw was making their barrels, you can tell the difference because Shaw used 11* crowns and they were pretty accurate. Shaw doesn't drill gas ports.
If Wilson really is making their barrels in house now then there is the change. The new barrels they are selling have a 45* chamfer at the muzzle with more of a recessed flat crown. It is much tougher to cut a perfect crown with a 45* chamfer and a one piece tool with a pilot.
Finally got it to the range, didn't shoot great or horrible, probably 0.8-1.2" groups with 80.5 gr FGMM, it did not like 88gr Hornady at all, or 75gr AE that some people seem to have good luck with, closer to 2" with those. I was surprised it didn't like the 88gr since quite a few have had good luck with that. It also seemed like the 88gr needed way more clicks opening up the gas port than 75gr/80.5gr did. Not sure if i'll bother to try the 90gr FGMM.
That would be a bad wager to take you up on! The barrel cleaned up easily of all copper, aside for a probably 2" solid copper streak from the gas port forward on top of the land the port went through.
Try the 80 ELDs with H4895 seems like 24.8-25.1gr. Check the valkyrie forum for "little red rockets" the guys over there found that load produced enough velocity(3000fps) to overcome bullets with higher BCs and better accuracy at the same time.
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