NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

[Pthfndr-CA]

There was an article at Accurateshooter.com yesterday about the NRA showing some interest in this sport. Here is the text of the article.

<span style="font-style: italic">It looks like the NRA is considering creating a new type of multi-distance rifle match, or at least expanding High Power competition as we know it today. The NRA has seen the growing popularity of “tactical” matches with scoped bolt-action rifles, and apparently is looking for ways to bring the tactical game under the NRA umbrella.

The NRA recently hired Trey Tuggle for the newly-created position of “Tactical Rifle Coordinator”. This position is part of the NRA Competition Division’s efforts to bring more people into the shooting sports. The focus of the Tactical Rifle Coordinator will be to promote the use of optics at existing High Power Matches as well as to move the NRA forward with a sanctioning process for Multi-Gun Action Shooting Events.

As a former U.S. Navy SEAL sniper, Trey Tuggle knows his tactical rifles. Interestingly, Tuggle is also an entrepreneur, having created a counterterrorism assault vehicle company called Patriot 3.

If you are interested in tactical or multi-gun competition, you can contact Tuggle via email at ttuggle [at] nrahq.org.</span>



As one of the match directors for the NCPPRC tactical rifle matches I emailed hiim Monday morning and received a reply back in a very short time. Here is Mr. Tuggle's reply. The reference to a forum is another one, not this one.



<span style="font-style: italic">Great to hear from you. I am on a search of guys like you that can help me understand exactly what it is that shooters out there desire in a Tactical Rifle Match.

At this time I am going to refrain from posting things on your forum. One reason is that if I agree with you, I’ll piss off someone else.

At this time I am trying to talk with as many people like you that are running events and find out exactly how the NRA can be of help. I have my own ideas but want to hear yours and your buddies.

Please feel free to email or call me. I work early so won’t beat me to work if you live in Ca. I also go home early. Necessity with the horrible traffic around here.

I have book marked your forum and will try to keep up with its content.

Thanks again for contacting me.

Hopefully together we can make something worth while.


Trey Tuggle

Tactical Rifle Coordinator

National Rifle Association

Phone: 703-267-1487

Fax 703-267-3941</span>

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

It would be nice to have him take a peek at your match or one in his AO.
If they (the NRA) get involved, I doubt they would be interested in the "practical precision" aspect of our comps, as they seem to like formats that can be repeatable range to range, match to match. They do not seem interested in any of the practical shooting sports, and I can't see an NRA approved version os what we do being anything like what we do.

I would like to see MD's from across the country get together and form a sanctioning body. IPSC and USPSA were born out of people shooting matches that didn't fit in a bullseye box, and I know the matches we love wouldn't go over well at Camp Perry!

 

[NOMAD]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

He can contact me NRA HQ is only 30 minutes away and would love to get him some feedback.

 

[Hasgun Willtravel]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Not to sound like a hater, but......

Let me start by saying that I am an proud NRA member.

With that said, my opinion is they can recognize the tactical discipline, contribute to the prize tables, and keeps their big shooting sport politics the hell out before they ruin this too.

Next thing you know there will be 500 new rules, rifle requirements, bunch of retards running around with trigger pull gauges making sure your trigger weight is within 3.2 - 3.3 lbs.

I would like to see this sport get crazy popular, but not at the expense of it going to shit because of regulatory and rifle match politics. For me, that's why I love doing this so much, there is a hell of a "feel" difference between showing up at a tactical match for the weekend vs. showing up at a ispc shoot and seeing all the background drama.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HasgunWilltravel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to sound like a hater, but......

Let me start by saying that I am an proud NRA member.

With that said, my opinion is they can recognize the tactical discipline, contribute to the prize tables, and keeps their big shooting sport politics the hell out before they ruin this too.

Next thing you know there will be 500 new rules, rifle requirements, bunch of retards running around with trigger pull gauges making sure your trigger weight is within 3.2 - 3.3 lbs.

I would like to see this sport get crazy popular, but not at the expense of it going to shit because of regulatory and rifle match politics. For me, that's why I love doing this so much, there is a hell of a "feel" difference between showing up at a tactical match for the weekend vs. showing up at a ispc shoot and seeing all the background drama.

Just my thoughts. </div></div>

I have to agree with your thoughts Nick.

Was my first thoughts when I read the title, they will want to instigate 500 rules and the rule nazos will no longer make it enjoyable.

 

[Bronco]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

NRA has been looking to get it's foot in the tactical door for a while now. They approached several of the "outlaw" 3 gun MD's. Ft. Benning 3 gun is tied in with the NRA. I have cautious optimism that they are truly interested in only standardizing existing rules. I think they are more interested in attaching their name to already successful matches than changing them.

 

[savagebrother]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

so why dont we form the united states tactical shooting association. we can establish our own way of doing things and also help military, police and interested civilians with there long range rifle shooting. teach them what i call the "singularity of the shot"
just my thoughts.

 

[Hasgun Willtravel]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sav338lapua</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so why dont we form the united states tactical shooting association. we can establish our own way of doing things and also help military, police and interested civilians with there long range rifle shooting. teach them what i call the "singularity of the shot"
just my thoughts.</div></div>

Why? I dont understand where there are any issues at all. We are a bunch of big boys, who are pretty damn good at self governing, why force politics into the mix. It sounds like a 800lb gorrilla waiting to get on everyones back.

 

[The Animal]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HasgunWilltravel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sav338lapua</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so why dont we form the united states tactical shooting association. we can establish our own way of doing things and also help military, police and interested civilians with there long range rifle shooting. teach them what i call the "singularity of the shot"
just my thoughts.</div></div>

Why? I dont understand where there are any issues at all. We are a bunch of big boys, who are pretty damn good at self governing, why force politics into the mix. It sounds like a 800lb gorrilla waiting to get on everyones back. </div></div>

+1 I share the same thoughts on self governing. I think one of the biggest draws to Tactical Matches is there happens to be no set standard. What can be more entertaining, with regards to rifle competition, by not knowing what to prepare for one minute prior to a stage?

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FK300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HasgunWilltravel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sav338lapua</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so why dont we form the united states tactical shooting association. we can establish our own way of doing things and also help military, police and interested civilians with there long range rifle shooting. teach them what i call the "singularity of the shot"
just my thoughts.</div></div>

Why? I dont understand where there are any issues at all. We are a bunch of big boys, who are pretty damn good at self governing, why force politics into the mix. It sounds like a 800lb gorrilla waiting to get on everyones back. </div></div>

+1 I share the same thoughts on self governing. I think one of the biggest draws to Tactical Matches is there happens to be no set standard. <span style="color: #FF0000">What can be more entertaining, with regards to rifle competition, by not knowing what to prepare for one minute prior to a stage?</span> </div></div>

I think that it adds to the training and realism side of things .... you dont know what you are going to be facing in a real life situation. You have you and your rifle ... thats it.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I think it is great the NRA is looking at this, clearly they see the "value' but I figure they see little more.

We put on two of the biggest "tactical" matches going, <span style="font-style: italic">(we think so anyway)</span> and I can honestly say we change the COF minutes before a stage. Anything from changing the direction of fire, the time given to engage to the number of shots fired. We like the fact we can be flexible. Most of the time we have a bullet point list of 30 events, 4 of which might be major events like the helicopter stages at the CUP. Then we move the other 25 events around those major movements. We can hustle 60 shooters through an event like the Helicopter stage in under 4 hours and still manage to include 3 other events at the same time so the down time is limited.

Standardizing that would never work, because very few places can shoot more than one range in multiple direction like is done at Rifles Only. This ability to run the Short Range, Tower (longer range) and the Carbine Pit at the same time is key. Trying to fit other venues into this box or adding sides to the box that don't exist because other venues can't do this would be disappointing.

Maybe the NRA should send their new Tactical Rifle Coordinator down during one of our matches to see how we incorporate so many different elements into one event would benefit the decision making on their end. We combine, a Precision Rifle competition with handgun stages and carbine, and make it work, as well as make it fun.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Standardizing that would never work, because very few places can shoot more than one range in multiple direction like is done at Rifles Only. This ability to run the Short Range, Tower (longer range) and the Carbine Pit at the same time is key. Trying to fit other venues into this box or adding sides to the box that don't exist because other venues can't do this would be disappointing. </div></div>

Bingo! Our Board of Directors would laugh me off the board if I asked "You think we could rent a helo and shoot from it?"

Even things such as a night shoot is a "no go" @ our range. Sac Valley operating hours are from 8am to 5pm. All rounds down range must be between those hours...period.

Other things such as UKD ranges...some places have that capability...some don't.

Rules and regs of the NRA may comflict with different safety standards and SOPs a particular range my have as well.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Given that the common denominator for a course of fire that is repeatable across the country is the KD range, I suspect their development will center around KD ranges and the operating rules of KD ranges. That said, I have an open mind to them producing something else.

My gut tells me they won't be incorporating Little Birds into their standard course of fire

 

[Emilio]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I'm glad to see that they are looking into getting involved with tactical matches but I hope they don't try to regulate it. As many have said the NRA is big on rules and that would destroy the very thing that makes tactical matches fun. The NRA "tac" matches would end up being another type of F-class. If they want to get involved I would suggest minimal guidlines and not rules.

 

[ewoaf]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BillPrudden</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let us be honest here. The NRA exists to increase its membership. One of the ways it does that is by providing a lobbying function which many of us value. One of the other ways it does that is by having a large presense at matches and gunshows and other places we tend to congregate. It has become aware that it is completely absent from most "tactical" matches, and seeks to "fix" that. It does not seek to improve the tactical match experience in any way, and, frankly, couldn't even if it tried, given the tools and mindsets it brings to the table. I strongly suggest we kindly decline their "help"... after all, have you seen what they consider appropriate defensive pistol training?

Bill </div></div>
+1
I think there could be an effective organization where tactical shooters could congregate and compete on a national level like that of USPSA, but as stated above by several posts flexibility is the major issue. I think of the tactical competitions as "practical long gunning". I think it can be done, but only so long as the rules dont get out of control, politics keep to a min, and hosting organizations keep open minds.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

This was posted by one of our HP shooters on our board....

<span style="font-weight: bold">Hmmm... This may be controversial, but I've never been shy of voicing my opinion.

NRA, while sanctioning the High Power national matches, regional championships, state championships and such, in practice, has not had the competion shooter as a true priority. Witness the Nationals at Camp Perry in the past few years, where attendance has steadily declined. Certainly, economics play a part, but the NRA's running of the Nationals has, shall I say, just not been shooter friendly. Costs go up (well over $200 to enter). Awards are anemic (useless NRA award points), the matches not efficiently run. The overall experience for the shooter, who dedicates a week or more of their time and travel, has deteriorated. When I actively participated in "NRA Week" at camp Perry, there would be 900 plus shooters. I don't have the exact numbers at hand, but attendance at NRA week of the nationals has steadily declined over the years to much less than when I participated. I think last year it was around 500. It just started coming down to value. What you paid for a mediocre experience was just not worth it for many. Unless you're David Tubb, Norm Houle, Dennis DeMille or one of the other top HP dogs, you're just along for the ride, on 4 long fubar days.

My take on this is that NRA is looking to include this because they are looking for revenue. They smell a new opportunity, and go for it. Don't think NRA has "tactical/practical precision competition" shooting at heart, or is looking to advance the disciplne. It's all about the benjamins. Another pool to be tapped. Don't expect much from them.

Yeah, it's blastphemy, I know. I'm a NRA Patron level member, NRA certificed Range Safety officer, and was a NRA certified highpower coach. I was a director in the MI state association high power division. I ran the MI state Junior High power program for 4 years. I've been on the inside of what NRA dictates to sanction those matches. I know what I've seen over the years. Competion shooting/shooters have not been a priority for many years for NRA. NRA is our gun rights lobbying organization, and the heavyist hitter out there. Competions are a side show for them.</span>

 

[Lindy]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Well, I am somewhat involved in running a tactical match twice a year, and I'm a long-time NRA member. I was also for several years a member of a club which offered NRA sanctioned matches of several sorts.

From that perspective, I'd set myself on fire on the mover berm before I'd seriously consider doing anything sanctioned by the NRA.

One of the reasons I enjoy shooting is as a respite from political B.S. - and that's exactly what you get up to your ears in when you start associating with the NRA.

Pass.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Lindy..are we talking like full body fire...or maybe just a shoe?

 

[Chiller]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I am somewhat involved in running a tactical match twice a year, and I'm a long-time NRA member. I was also for several years a member of a club which offered NRA sanctioned matches of several sorts.

From that perspective, I'd set myself on fire on the mover berm before I'd seriously consider doing anything sanctioned by the NRA.

One of the reasons I enjoy shooting is as a respite from political B.S. - and that's exactly what you get up to your ears in when you start associating with the NRA.

Pass.
</div></div>

Lindy,

Really....dont hold back....tell us how you feel.....

 

[He Shoot Me]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We put on two of the biggest "tactical" matches going, <span style="font-style: italic">(we think so anyway)</span> and I can honestly say we change the COF minutes before a stage. Anything from changing the direction of fire, the time given to engage to the number of shots fired. We like the fact we can be flexible. Most of the time we have a bullet point list of 30 events, 4 of which might be major events like the helicopter stages at the CUP. Then we move the other 25 events around those major movements. We can hustle 60 shooters through an event like the Helicopter stage in under 4 hours and still manage to include 3 other events at the same time so the down time is limited.</div></div>

I simply have to get my ass down too Texas next year and check this shit out!

-Pat

 

[Ratbert]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bronco</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I have cautious optimism that they are truly interested in only standardizing existing rules.</div></div>

To what point and purpose? I don't see any real advantage to standardizing anything. The NRA waves it's little patches and rankings in front of shooters like some kind of carrot and expects us to hop up and follow them anywhere. But none of us give a flying fuck about rankings or patches or points currently, so why start now?

The NRA doesn't understand a game that isn't fair.

 

[Hoser]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

The NRA already has their hands in a couple different 3-gun matches. Rocky Mountain and Blue Ridge were on last years list.

Not sure whats to come.

 

[mrmildot]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I think a big part of what makes a rifle match "tactical" is the necessity to use "tactics" to overcome disadvantages and quickly adapt to new challenges such as time limits, ranges, angles, movement, etc. If there were a standardized COF then one could simply train to the format, rather than develop "tactics" necessary to deal with unknown circumstances.

 

[Lindy]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Jacob and Frank are like jazz musicians who don't need sheet music - they improvise by ear. It takes years of experience and raw talent.

The team which produces the Rifles Only matches has been doing this for six years - and Jacob was doing it well before that. It works pretty well.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

IMO the biggest drawback would be standardization of equipment. from caliber to barrel length to action length, there would be too many things to classify, and if they did try to put together general "like equipment" classifications, without doubt it let many able shooters out in the cold as we know how varied our equipment is.

several standardized COF's can be rotated enough to create some sort of variety, and shooters can be "ranked" or "rated" depending on how they shoot a particular COF and put in a variety of different target scenarios(like IDPA, but with rifles). i would have to believe that some sort of baseline in COF(as in any competition) would shed light on where one has to improve their game in order to be competitive with others shooting that particular COF, along with learning a few tricks.

maybe something simple such as a bolt and semi class, with a long and short action caliber division in each would satisfy the equipment classification.

COF scenarios can be set and rotated, without publicizing what the COF is going to be, "just show up and shoot it".

targets could be a few movers, some hard and soft covers, and hostage types put at different distances base on the COF. optional FFPs or targets could places at different distances, at the shooters option to choose, and more points for the harder shot, less points for the easier shot.

throw in a few jumping jacks, pushups, or something like that to get the heartrate and breathing up.

the biggest set back is that they would probably end up trying to make it fair for everyone, with too many hoops to jump through, which as mentioned before, the tactical game isn't a fair fight. the NRA puts out more static marksmanship stuff than what can be generally called "tactical"

but if it does happen, i'm sure we'll shoot it anyhow, (even if it doesn't turn out to be as practical as it can), and participation / feedback would dictate if things need to be tweeked or scrapped.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I think that Frank has his priorities exactly right. The measure of this is the simple fact that the CUP is the success that it is. The NRA would do extremely well to take his advice and accept his offer/suggestion.

Those who have their doubs about NRA involvement should bear in mind that if they go the wrong way, they'll be sinking their own ship. What if somebody ran a match and nobody came? That sort of thing.

I agree that more rules make for less enjoyment; and that NRA might also stand for Nitpickers' Rules Association.

Greg

 

[fargo007]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Guys,

Consider that they are exploring the concept, they've put a former Seal sniper in charge, and they are taking input from the community.

If you don't like the program they come up with, you don't have to use it. That's why a lot of us don't shoot high power, USPSA, or other rule-heavy or otherwise game-gear-specific sports.

Having started a shooting program and serving as an MD at two clubs so far, I can tell you that having NRA cover goes a LONG way in selling what you've proposed. Even if you want to run outlaw, having an NRA program to liken it to for comparative purposes is huge.

So far, this is a departure from how they've operated in the past. There is not an ounce of douche visible in this so far, so I am willing to give them a chance.

--Fargo007

 

[j-huskey]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

The other side:

Just having them open up the high-power ranges to us, to be used with our weapons systems is a PLUS.
We get range time on nice ranges that we can learn a lot on. And we can make new contacts/networking with other shooters, another PLUS.

Being able to shoot your scoped/bipoded rifle at 200/300/500/600/1000 yards on a regularly scheduled basis on these ranges is a great PLUS in the learning opportunity you can get and the range time at those distances gathering data under more ideal conditions than at one of the "tactical matches".

Join the NRA club for a yearly fee of ?$50.00 and be able to shoot in the club sessions monthly, how much does it cost to travel to another state to shoot once???

Being able to hold training sessions on these ranges, taught by people like David Tubb and Mid Tompkins on say wind reading would be another great PLUS.

There are opportunities here. We should take advantage of them.

Some of the tactical matches are not for aging or injured people who like to shoot their tactical equipment under challenging conditions.
Such an opportunity for them on a NRA range with their "tactical" equipment could be the only chance some older or injured people ever have.
They damn sure aren't going to Rifles Only and getting into a helicopter in the Hide Cup - Bash, nor will they ever be able to participate in some of the RO/Cup/Bash's more physical events.

These people still like to shoot and need a venue which the NRA can offer in this.

Think outside the box and see how this can benefit us all and use it to our advantage.

 

[Pthfndr-CA]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhuskey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The other side:

Just having them open up the high-power ranges to us, to be used with our weapons systems is a PLUS.
We get range time on nice ranges that we can learn a lot on. And we can make new contacts/networking with other shooters, another PLUS.

Being able to shoot your scoped/bipoded rifle at 200/300/500/600/1000 yards on a regularly scheduled basis on these ranges is a great PLUS in the learning opportunity you can get and the range time at those distances gathering data under more ideal conditions than at one of the "tactical matches".

Join the NRA club for a yearly fee of ?$50.00 and be able to shoot in the club sessions monthly, how much does it cost to travel to another state to shoot once???

Being able to hold training sessions on these ranges, taught by people like David Tubb and Mid Tompkins on say wind reading would be another great PLUS.

There are opportunities here. We should take advantage of them.

Some of the tactical matches are not for aging or injured people who like to shoot their tactical equipment under challenging conditions.
Such an opportunity for them on a NRA range with their "tactical" equipment could be the only chance some older or injured people ever have.
They damn sure aren't going to Rifles Only and getting into a helicopter in the Hide Cup - Bash, nor will they ever be able to participate in some of the RO/Cup/Bash's more physical events.

These people still like to shoot and need a venue which the NRA can offer in this.

Think outside the box and see how this can benefit us all and use it to our advantage. </div></div>

This makes sense. How often does someone on here comment about not being able to shoot their braked rifle at a NRA F Class/Prone match. Or the attitude of a MD and/or other shooters at said event?

F-T/R are semi specialized rifles and equipment. F-Open are pretty much BR rifles shot from the prone.

What if the NRA approved a class of rifles that the typical tactical rifle rig fit into with minimal equipment rules? Would you go shoot on a square KD range with your tactical rifle if that was the case?

 

[doc76251]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I think the NRA "could" gain attendance at their matches by opening up the range to those of the "tactical" persuasion. The path is fraught with danger and miss steps that would have to be evaluated more for appearance than anything else. Consider the basic competitive "Hide Guy" shoulder to shoulder with some of the yahoo's recently shown on You-Tube w/ their AK's and such. To the great unwashed, both are "tactical shooters".

I'm not even going to open the can of media perception.

To do it I believe it would be an option for the NRA to allow "precision riflemen" to infiltrate the ranks of a regular NRA Highpower event with an adjusted course of fire.

Say.....

200 yd Off Hand SF = 200yd prone slow fire Both XX rounds in XX minutes.

200 yd Rapid Sitting = 200 yd prone rapid fire, 6 rounds in 60 seconds

300 yd Prone Rapid Fire = 300 yd prone rapid fire, 6 rounds in 70 seconds

500/600 yard Prone Slow Fire = 500/600 prone slow fire same round / time count

1000 yd Prone Slow Fire = 500/600 prone slow fire same round / time count

Now here is the rub.

Shooters would go into the first "practical rifleman" match by infiltrating the HP line, and as such no brakes. Hey they have the right to their competitions too. If you infiltrate the HP line, no brake (common courtesy). From there you would have to "qualify" to be stand alone at EACH yard line. Say 100% of the shots on paper and rankings could be done by score (that's a big chunk of paper even at 1K).

Once there is a "qualified" practical rifleman others could "qualify" under him at the next match if they had guns w/ brakes, separated from the HP shooters by as much as the range would allow.

From here as more people "qualified" the ranks would swell and allow more and more tactical shooters to participate and qualify ALONGSIDE the HP Match. The practical guys would just do it on their belly.

You would be stuck using the HP targets and scoring but it would provide for some good training unless you already have a match director that will let you play along side. Not perfect but it is exposure to the long lines for those that are not willing/unable to deal with the HP rules.

Hands off is the best approach the NRA could adopt. Qualify safely and in an manner complimentary with the sanctioned HP match and we'll let you play all the way back.

No rules to qualify except

No brakes in the HP line
Must be fired from prone.
Must follow the HP or practical round/time counts

Other than that let it roll. Pay your fee, pull the pits, put your rounds on target and get good dope. It's not a tactical match but then again I don't believe the NRA will ever sanction a true "tactical match" for all the reasons Frank, Lindy and others mentioned. The best you will get is a KD square range practice session. In some areas that is better than nothing.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[olympian]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition


I see no reason why the tact shooters could not shoot the same COF in XTC as everyone else. All shooters would need to be able to handle and fire their rifles in XTC. Yes, that means standing and rapids.

Sadly, other than NRA Sporting Rifle matches, I do not know of the NRA supporting any positional shooting with scopes, which stinks for all the capable marksmen/shooters out there with vision problems.

 

[Jburt]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I'm not real sure what to think about the NRA becoming involved with tactical rifle matches. However, as a shooter that would love to get involved in this sport I find that matches are pretty far away. Hence being expensive, I'm a college student that works full time and can't afford to take time off work to travel nor afford the travel costs. I do think that if the NRA got involved it would mean there would be more matches available to shoot, and closer to me I'm sure. As for the whole NRA mandating matches I have no say in that as I've already said.

For now ill Just peruse the tactical match forum and stare at pictures and video.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I don't really have much of a dog in this hunt but I do have perspective. I have been an NRA member since I was a kid and have been a highly active member of IHMSA for 3 years. I have shot metallic silhouette both NRA and IHMSA combined since '98. The one thing that seems to be killing the sport is the proliferation of rules, new rules, old rules,revised rules, perceived rules etc, etc. I fail to see how the NRA will help the tactical shooting competition. There are a certain amount of rules that are needed to run a match in any instance, nothing wrong with rules enough to set some amount of order. The internal politics will eventually erode the competition itself.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I did not read all of this thread to see if Trey has posted here.

I received an email from Trey a few weeks ago. It appears he is helping out Janet Raab in the Competitions Division, so his role is not confined to this tactical idea. She had mentioned to me last time I spoke with her she was hoping to have some help. She is one dedicated, overworked individual.

The traditional NRA sports- bullseye pistol, highpower rifle, smallbore rifle, and air rifle- have been experiencing reductions in sanctioned participation over the years. Conversely, cowboy action, action pistol/rifle/shotgun, and long range field precision shooting have been experiencing increases in participation.

I would encourage you all before making a rush to judgment about the value of the NRA sanctioning precision rifle events to consider the following:

- The NRA is active in maintaining range standards and practices to help keep our shooting sports safe
- The NRA provides grants to facilities to help build and maintain them, giving us more and better places to shoot
- The NRA provides very affordable insurance to clubs that have 100% NRA membership as a requirement of members, making annual dues affordable in these litigious times we live in
- The NRA sponsors and supports a variety of new shooter, women shooter, and youth shooter programs

Here is a link to the programs the NRA offers:

http://www.nra.org/programs.aspx

Lastly, on the subject of them being THE second amendment lobby,one has to ask - if you don't support the NRA in this role, who DO YOU support in their absence?

Sincerely,

Leo Ahearn
NRA Life Member 28792164

 

[kraigWY]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I have a differant opinion of why HP is loosing competitiors. I don't think its because of the lack of interest, I think its that HP and Bullseye is getting too expensive.

When I first started in the mid 70s you had people showing up with '03s and Garands, and very little other equipment, they were having fun, and being competitive. No so anymore. Look at the prices of Match Grade M14/M1As and ARs. Then look at the heavy coats, spotting scopes, etc, etc. You can't compete with a rack grade M1.

Ok, where are all the Garand and Springfield shooters, they didnt quit shooting. They have moved to CMP-GSM Vintage Rifle matches, there you're limited to AS ISSUED rifles. So now you compete with a $500 CMP Garand or $100 Mosin 91/30 and cheap surplus ammo.

Look at Small Bore, that's a pricy sport, $1500+ rifles, $300 shooting coats, etc. Kids can't aford to shoot any more. Now, compair that with CMPs Rimfire Sporter Games, you can be competitive with a $80 22 bolt gun.

CMP Games are growing, yet their rules are for the most part, are more strict then NRAs.

I guess what I'm trying to say, shoot what you want, but don't price yourself out of competitors.

I'm drifting more and more to CMP games. They are set up to teach and test shooting fundamentals, its about shooting not money & gimicks. CMP clinics cost very little, Same with GSM matches, maybe 20 bucks, witch isnt bad when you consider that often ammo is furnished.

I just hate to see shooting sports turn into a rich man's game. Thats the main reason I'm such a CMP-GSM fan.

 

[Chiller]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a differant opinion of why HP is loosing competitiors. I don't think its because of the lack of interest, I think its that HP and Bullseye is getting too expensive.

When I first started in the mid 70s you had people showing up with '03s and Garands, and very little other equipment, they were having fun, and being competitive. No so anymore. Look at the prices of Match Grade M14/M1As and ARs. Then look at the heavy coats, spotting scopes, etc, etc. You can't compete with a rack grade M1.

Ok, where are all the Garand and Springfield shooters, they didnt quit shooting. They have moved to CMP-GSM Vintage Rifle matches, there you're limited to AS ISSUED rifles. So now you compete with a $500 CMP Garand or $100 Mosin 91/30 and cheap surplus ammo.

Look at Small Bore, that's a pricy sport, $1500+ rifles, $300 shooting coats, etc. Kids can't aford to shoot any more. Now, compair that with CMPs Rimfire Sporter Games, you can be competitive with a $80 22 bolt gun.

CMP Games are growing, yet their rules are for the most part, are more strict then NRAs.

I guess what I'm trying to say, shoot what you want, but don't price yourself out of competitors.

I'm drifting more and more to CMP games. They are set up to teach and test shooting fundamentals, its about shooting not money & gimicks. CMP clinics cost very little, Same with GSM matches, maybe 20 bucks, witch isnt bad when you consider that often ammo is furnished.

I just hate to see shooting sports turn into a rich man's game. Thats the main reason I'm such a CMP-GSM fan. </div></div>

Have had this discussion with a number of members and shooters.
In many ways “Tactical Competitions” have become a bit of an arms race. I will admit I am guilty of this. We take the rules as written and begin to think how far we can push the line without crossing over.

 

[steve123]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

No offence to anyone but I say leave the tactical shoots just as they are!!!

IMO,Keep the full time professional shooters out of the sport !!!!

 

[Chiller]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No offence to anyone but I say leave the tactical shoots just as they are!!!

IMO,Keep the full time professional shooters out of the sport !!!! </div></div>

Steve,

My question would be is that where we are already going? What Vu has proposed seems to be a way of leveling the playing field.

 

[steve123]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I like how each club,Phoenix,LV,Norcal,Price UT,etc... runs things at their matches as they see fit without being governed further.Each ones COF's are different enough to keep things interesting,also each one has their own "small town feel" so to speak.

EDIT:

It's hard to figure out exactly where the sport is going ? But do we really have to go anywhere right now ?

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

The majority of my competition "career", I have been involved in the "outlaw" practical shooting matches. For 3Gunners, it's a matter of course considering that there are virtually no USPSA-sanctioned "local" 3-Gun matches, and they only got into major matches several years ago. The first major field/long-range match I shot (2004) we fired from a helo-- yeah, that's not standardized! I've been involved in several different local organizations that have put on novel match concepts, sanctioned only by ourselves.

So with that as my background and the NRA's history, suffice to say I am very skeptical about the NRA's involvement in 3Gun, practical, and long-range shooting. The way I see it, the variety of match formats and rules are strengths that allow distinct and novel challenges depending on match staff, location, shooters, etc. If we have "outlaw" 3-Gun and long-range rifle matches that are downright excellent with great shooter turnout, safety, etc, what do we have to gain from a 5000# gorilla jumping in and "taking over"?

However--- I spoke to Trey at the RM3G nationals this year. He's a good guy. After talking to him for a half hour, I don't think the NRA's involvement would necessarily be a disaster. He did understand the point about different venues and formats necessarily having different procedures and rules, etc. The impression I got was that they aren't interested in "taking over", but offering some structure and options for those that need/want it.

Also, the RM3G nationals themselves have been "sanctioned" by the NRA for at least a year or two, and there have been no changes that I noticed because of it: the match is excellent as usual, thanks to the efforts of JJ and Denise Johnson and their match staff.

In summary, I think all "outlaw" practical shooters are right to be skeptical of NRA's involvement, but Trey is a good guy and they haven't screwed anything up so far. Maybe we can give it a chance? Heck, at the local range where I run the monthly 3-Gun, I'd love to be able to point to an NRA-sanctioned document about 3-Gun instead of having to attend a board meeting to soothe the benchrest guy who freaked out when he saw us "running around with loaded guns!"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a differant opinion of why HP is loosing competitiors. I don't think its because of the lack of interest, I think its that HP and Bullseye is getting too expensive.</div></div>
If we look at the practical shooting sports that are rapidly gaining popularity, such as Cowboy, 3-Gun, and practical long-range, those examples all argue strongly against your theory. An average 3-Gun setup will run about $5000, high-end ones closer to $7 or $8k. Cowboy is at least as expensive. Practical long-range rigs, using the Steel Safari as an example, average about $6000 for an average top-10 setup, more like $10k for a high-end rig. It's something else.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Zak- question for you. Have you inventoried the different venues where you participate in these "outlaw" events and tallied where the NRA is involved providing insurance for them and grant money for their building/maintenance and where they are not?

I am not saying that I am a proponent of mass sanctioning of field precision events; I am however suggesting that people open their eyes a bit more to the fact that the NRA is very active in helping make venues available and affordable for a variety of uses.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I agree with Zac.

I'm all for shooting FClass to sharpen me wind calls, but that's where any interest with XTC shooting ends with me (and yes I shot Service Rifle for a few years).

I have no interest in the NRA entering into the "governance" of practical shooting. I happen to enjoy dreaming up interesting and challenging COF's.

Allowing our rifles on their XTC ranges should be an option through the NRA HP division, but I don't want to see them involved in our more dynamic sport.

I'd rather see a grass roots "sanctioning" by a loose organization of venues and those involved that hold regular practical precision matches.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I haven't done any sort of inventory.

I think your argument in that post kind of equivocates the existence of the NRA as a backdrop to specific NRA involvement in the sport. For example, everyone I know that runs matches and has purchased liability insurance for that purpose uses the NRA program. Sure, this is great, but it does not mean that the NRA is involved at all in their specific match/sport or sanctions it in any way. The NRA is also, as you've said, the biggest/best pro-2A lobby in the country, and its programs lead in basic firearms training. Sure, the NRA is great for all that stuff but it's really a separate issue than if the NRA can run great practical shooting matches. Historically, they have demonstrated that they do not "really understand" the ideas behind practical shooting, IMO.

Off the top of my head:

* my local range (WCFW.org) where I run 3Gun just as a club event - no idea if they receive anything from NRA or not. My guess would be no, other than third party deals facilitated by NRA (ie insurance)

* Steel Safari - no

* ITRC - pretty sure no, just guessing

* RM3G - it's run at the NRAWC which is affiliated with but not really funded by NRA, and now they are sanctioned by NRA

* any of the matches at Camp Guernsey - pretty sure no, just guessing

* Sporting Rifle at NRAWC- this is a match run under the umbrella of NRAWC with their insurance

In the last case, the NRAWC's insurance covers that match. In all the other cases that I was/am involved in, we always had to buy our own insurance. FYI- competition insurance typically runs about $1k/year.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Maybe you people's range is differant then ours. We get a lot of money from the NRA via grants, but we didn't any requirements on what type of shooting is done (as long as its safe).

It you want to shoot X type match, you just need to check the calander to make sure your date is clear, put your match on that date and you're locked on.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> An average 3-Gun setup will run about $5000, high-end ones closer to $7 or $8k. Cowboy is at least as expensive. Practical long-range rigs, using the Steel Safari as an example, average about $6000 for an average top-10 setup, more like $10k for a high-end rig.</div></div>

That's out of the range for the average rifle shooter. Take ICORE matches. Its growing, its reasonable to shoot, yeah you can get fancy with your custom revolvers, or you can shoot production with a $250 police trade in Model 64, an event that allows anyone to compete.

You get a lot of shooters in HIGH end events, but how many more would you get if you had a class for production guns, the type everyone has in their closet.

Even Appleseed is getting specialized, you have to have a souped up 10-22 to be competitive, its no longer about marksmanship, its about how much money you can dump in a rifle.


What I'm trying to say, all shooting events can assorb more shooters. Increasing participation is the goal, or is in my book. Not just rich folks.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

The draw for tactical matches are that the course of fire dictates the equipment, NOT a rulebook. Want to shoot a semi-auto? Sure, go right ahead. If you want to limit the advantages of a semi, then open the time requirements up. Don't like magazine fed bolt guns? Limit the courses to five rounds or unlimited time for reloads.

I love showing up at a match and seeing VASTLY different rigs that have a dash of the shooter's personality in them.

 

[long-shot]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I think shooting is a lot like racing. How fast do you want to go and how much do you want to spend. I only shoot in local tac matches and have a blast doing it. I only shoot .308 and yesterday I was feeling "Old School" and patriotic so I drug out the M40a1. I didn't win nor did I embarrass myself.

As for the NRA taking a greater role in this type of shooting; can anyone tell me exactly what type of shooting this is? You go to any number of different events around the country and you'll get a different match. It isn't the same range with the same rules.

Most of us got into this sport because it meant putting rounds on target under various conditions. How the hell do you make that a standard?

On a side note when the NRA is more interested in legal gun owners and less interested in lobbying I'll pay attention to what they are saying.

 

[Graham]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Well... I guess the NRA's move in this direction was inevitable.

I was heavily involved in developing IPSC as a sanctioned sport in the early 80's. I was also present at the world meeting that resulted in the demise of IPSC USA and the rise of USPSA. I saw the explosion of rules and politics that inevitably followed.

I then saw first-hand the beginning NRA 'action shooting' and the modification of rules and targets that resulted in an NRA version of what was formely known as practical pistol shooting. If memory serves I sided with the opinions of Col. Cooper at the time.

Regardless, my five-inch 1911 became a 'comp gun', then a 'race gun'. I saw 'A' class become 'Master' class, and now there are 'Grand Masters' and 'Grand Masters' in (six?) different 'Classes' of pistol - some Classes require the pistol to fit into boxes and others now have special holster requirements.

Today, although I am still a (low-numbered) USPSA member, I don't compete in sanctioned events any more. Don't get me wrong: popularity has done wonders for the sport and I encourage everyone to go shoot a practical pistol match. But not even I have the money and time required to 'buy in' to a practical pistol match never mind to keep-up and stay competitive.

All to say: I have some idea of the progression of politics in these types of situations. If Trey wants to have a beer with me and chat about what I have seen over the last thirty years, then I'm all ears.

But, right now, what I like about tarctical precision rifle shooting is that it has no officially-sanctioned rulebook. Comps like the 'Cup remind me of the golden eara of IPSC when shooting skill was at a premium and politics was at a minimum. For me that's what makes it fun. The emphasis on people rather than rules is why I have returned to practical competitive shooting with my first love - the bolt gun.

So, I'll keep an open mind. But in the interest of full disclosure I'm leaning heavily toward the opinions of Frank, Lindy, Nick, and Jacob; based in large part on my past experience.

 

[Lindy]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Having read back through the entire thread, I'll add this: Standardization is only necessary if one desires that shooters can compare scores across multiple events.

I can't think of any reason why that's desirable, and it brings a whole bunch of undesirable stuff with it, like lots and lots of rules and a lack of flexibility.

If the NRA wants to be involved in the sport, the only apparent advantage I can see is for clubs who wish to take advantage of NRA-provided or affiliated liability insurance for the sponsoring club.

I suspect that said insurance will come at a very high price in terms of regulations and restrictions.

Will the NRA involvement have any other advantage, such as in terms of popularizing the sport? Allow me to point out the fact that the Rifles Only Fall Bash had 100 people attempt to register for the match in the first minute registration was open.

I don't think we need any more popularity.

Just my opinion, worth, probably, about what you paid for it.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's out of the range for the average rifle shooter. </div></div>
Perhaps or perhaps not; however, since sports that are at least as, or more expensive than, NRAHP are more popular and growing, that pretty much invalidates the argument that NRAHP is dying because it's too expensive.

 

[fargo007]

Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Is NRAHP actually dying? I don't know much about it nationwide, but my club has a program that seems very well attended. I shoot F-Class for practice (when I'm mad at my barrel.) ;-)

Just pointing out one positive aspect to this - it may make it easier for clubs to start a tactical match program if it can be shown that the NRA sanctions matches of the sort. It may lead to more matches to shoot....Even if most but not all are 'outlaw' and not sanctioned/approved.

--Fargo007