F T/R Competition NRA Smallbore Rimfire F Class coming...

[russ10x]

I know this is rimfire, but a pretty good way to train...now being recognized by the NRA....I posted this in the rimfire thread...just FYI for the Fullbore guys...
Page 27...


Shooting Sports USA - February 2014

 

[gstaylorg]

So it looks as though there is going to be F-SBR-TR and F-SBR-Open, similar to current F-Class rules. Sounds like fun to me...no late nights reloading, and just think of all the $$$ that will be saved on match/practice ammo costs. I've often thought about picking up a .22LR match rifle as a trainer. Maybe this will give me the motivation to go out and get one. Thanks for the heads-up.

 

[Tempest 455]

I wonder what distance? We have been shooting .22 long distance for years. Yes, very good practice. A HV .22 has almost the same dope at 300 as .308 at 1,000.

From 100 yard zero, the MOA elevation is almost the same, so is flight time.

Sounds like a great idea.

 

[XTR]

Hehe, I may for once be ahead of the game. I took delivery of a 40X 22LR barreled action a couple of months ago. This was a backup gun for a small bore BR shooter. It's got an Lilja barrel. Now all I need is another Jewel trigger, another PR&T stock and two more NF scopes and I'll be good to go on all of my guns. !?

I've looked in the current online rules books and don't see section 24 yet or the target sizes. Where can we find it?

 

[lawman29]

They list recommended targets on the small bore rifle changes 2014 update (see last page): http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/rules/rul_sbr_14.pdf

Distances are just 50 & 100. Would have liked to have seen 200.

I too am ahead of the game times 2. 40x standard barrel (loves Ely Match) and 40xb heavy barrel (Midas...). Put them both in B&C A-2 stocks & jewell triggers. I went with the Sightron Big Sky 6.5x20x50. Get 20" per revolution - we shoot a match at 50, 100 & 200. One full turn and a little more gets you to 200, with a 50 zero.

 

[XTR]

I read the part that says shooting the same course of fire as current SB matches. I understand that means 50 and 100. Doesn't mean that we cant one day get a long range class that goes to 200.

 

[Shootnjunky]

I can't wait for this to catch on.

I purchased a Sako Quad and a 40XB, guess I will get the 40x built up and use it for the longer ranges and try out the Sako for the 50-100. Just trying to figure out the scope configuration I want on all my rifles, including my F/TR Big Gun

 

[Xcount]

sorry to sound the pessimist here but a fully supported scoped rifle, and unlimited sights, at 50 yards? really. you guys better get used to buying Eley Red box or Lapua because it's all going to come down to X count. Sling shooters already go down to x count most matches already so try not to make too big a deal about cleaning a target.

BTW, you are all behind the curve because I saw shooters in Phoenix doing this years ago.

 

[Tempest 455]

sorry to sound the pessimist here but a fully supported scoped rifle, and unlimited sights, at 50 yards? really. you guys better get used to buying Eley Red box or Lapua because it's all going to come down to X count. Sling shooters already go down to x count most matches already so try not to make too big a deal about cleaning a target.

BTW, you are all behind the curve because I saw shooters in Phoenix doing this years ago.

That's why I would like to see this at 200-300 yards.

 

[XTR]

Guys, this is going to be a part of the existing SB system. Coming in on day one complaining that your not shooting 200 yards is like coming in and complaining that you can't run your brake and feed from the mag in an F class long range match. Deal with it, or don't.

People may have been doing it, hell a lot of us practice with 22s spec'd like our F-TR Rifles. My 40x is going in a PR&T with a Jewel trigger and a Nightforce BR with an NP-2DD exactly like the rig I run at 1000. What this means now is that there will actually be sanctioned recognized matches.

And seriously, you couldn't race cockroaches and win w/o supplements, so why would you think you could win with less than the best ammo out there? It doens't stop me from going to the local gun show and promoting to get guys to show up with 10/22s, Tasco scopes, and Harris bipoods. It gets them playing the game.

The most expensive Eley out there is about the same price as a Berger 90, and it's 4x the price of most other match grade 22lr.

 

[Xcount]

That's why I would like to see this at 200-300 yards.

then you'll have to run that match yourself. the NRA will NEVER sanction that. mark my words, because they would have to use a completely different range and they haven't even changed the targets used in about 80 years. They dropped the 50 yard target at the nationals a few years ago because EVERYBODY in contention at the top cleaned 50, most with 200-20x. the target is old for todays equipment and ammo. The 50m target is a ball breaker, that is hopefully what they make you guys use just to make it a competition. plus use it at 100. gotta make it challenging right, otherwise you guys might hurt your shoulders patting yourselves on the back.

you should really just put it on a sling to see how hard it is to actually hold a rifle inside a ten ring.

 

[Tempest 455]

then you'll have to run that match yourself. the NRA will NEVER sanction that. mark my words, because they would have to use a completely different range and they haven't even changed the targets used in about 80 years. They dropped the 50 yard target at the nationals a few years ago because EVERYBODY in contention at the top cleaned 50, most with 200-200x. the target is old for todays equipment and ammo. The 50m target is a ball breaker, that is hopefully what they make you guys use just to make it a competition. plus use it at 100. gotta make it challenging right, otherwise you guys might hurt your shoulders patting yourselves on the back.

you should really just put it on a sling to see how hard it is to actually hold a rifle inside a ten ring.

Then sounds like it will never be. I have no desire to shoot a .22LR w/ a sling. I'd rather shoot it scoped at 300 yards or more.

 

[Xcount]

Guys, this is going to be a part of the existing SB system. Coming in on day one complaining that your not shooting 200 yards is like coming in and complaining that you can't run your brake and feed from the mag in an F class long range match. Deal with it, or don't.

People may have been doing it, hell a lot of us practice with 22s spec'd like our F-TR Rifles. My 40x is going in a PR&T with a Jewel trigger and a Nightforce BR with an NP-2DD exactly like the rig I run at 1000. What this means now is that there will actually be sanctioned recognized matches.

And seriously, you couldn't race cockroaches and win w/o supplements, so why would you think you could win with less than the best ammo out there? It doens't stop me from going to the local gun show and promoting to get guys to show up with 10/22s, Tasco scopes, and Harris bipoods. It gets them playing the game.

The most expensive Eley out there is about the same price as a Berger 90, and it's 4x the price of most other match grade 22lr.

I guess you missed the memo about 22 being a less expensive way to shoot rifle. How long do you think newbies will stick around seeing NF optics and red box just to shoot out to 100. guys already complain about ftr being an equipment race and your proud to be bring it to smallbore. you have lost your mind.
have fun with your equipment race, your missing the whole point.

 

[XTR]

As to course of fire the article states "When starting F-SBR at your club it is suggested that you allow F class to shoot along side your target rifle (sling shooters) using the F-SBR recommended targets, while shooting the same course of fire and time limits" So it sounds to me like at this point we (F class shooters) would be shooting the same course of fire currently shot by smallbore competitors. Sounds like 50 and 100 yards. Personally, being a long range shooter I'd like to see a 200 yard class, and maybe we eventually get something like that, but for now I think it's a good start.

Going to 200 yards would require a completely different setup and match system just for F class. Maybe in a few yrs if the entire smallbore line if full of bipods and rests sure, but until then it is another recognized match format that allows shooting with scoped and bipods.

Personally I own a basic coat and a glove, for one and only one reason, to shoot service rifle. If it were not for F class I'd never have gotten into any other form of competition shooting, other than maybe playing with a BPCR. That's me, my choice, my likes, and certainly not the same as everyone elses.

I think this is good.

(oh yea, and I plan to see what I can do to get organized matches at Oak Ridge. We don't seem to have much of a small bore program these days)

 

[XTR]

I guess you missed the memo about 22 being a less expensive way to shoot rifle. How long do you think newbies will stick around seeing NF optics and red box just to shoot out to 100. guys already complain about ftr being an equipment race and your proud to be bring it to smallbore. you have lost your mind.
have fun with your equipment race, your missing the whole point.

I was building this rifle months ago before this came about. You may have missed the memo that competition is.

Other than duplicating my the reticle in F-TR scope for practice how is my NF any different from a T-36 that costs $350? Actually the NF I run on my 22s is an 8-32 so I actually lose 4x to the T-36.

F-TR is not an equipment race, but you do need the right equipment. If you are bemoaning the fact that you most likely can't win with a stock rifle then cry me a river. Sheesh. I won a match at the nationals with a R700 action and a 30" barrel mounted in a McM A5, Jim Crofts won the National title in 2012 with a Savage Action. I know Stan and Jim on the US team still run Savage actions. (at leas they did at Raton), and Russell Simmons placed second in the World Championships by one point shooting a Sightron and shooting 155s. The "equipment race" requires that you get a long barrel, a stock you can shoot, and load good bullets. After that it is up to you to read wind.

Certainly you are not likely to ever win at the national level with a $500 off the shelf rifle, but neither will you win in service rifle with a stock DPMS either. (Ever price a White Oak Precision upper or a Geissele Triger ) DOH! It's competition and people will get the best they can afford in order to compete.

That said, all up you can build my Remington for right at $2000. You still need a scope, mounts, and bipod, but the rifle is under $2000 with gunsmith costs unless you go to a smith that charges an extra $2k for their name. My Defiance, which I built just because I wanted it and it shoots no better than my R700, you can add another $600 for the pretty action with the fluted bolt.

There is a perception by bulletin board warriors that they can buy points to get to the top of the game. You can't. You need good equipment, but I have seen stock Savage FTRs win in local matches against good competition, $1200 off the rack.

Ever look at what an Anschutz 1907 costs?

 

[Xcount]

As to course of fire the article states .....Personally I own a basic coat and a glove, for one and only one reason, to shoot service rifle. If it were not for F class I'd never have gotten into any other form of competition shooting, other than maybe playing with a BPCR. That's me, my choice, my likes, and certainly not the same as everyone elses.

...

Gee Wade, just a few years ago on this very website you basically called sling shooters a bunch of idiots in smelly coats and you had no interest in it. Now that you've entered a shooting contest and not an equipment race, I Distinguished using a Wilson barrel and Hornady's and still don't know an OCW is, I even made the cut at Perry the first and only time I went. How's it working out for you?

 

[tansinator]

We have been doing this at Chattanooga Rifle Club for a few years now. Usually about 15 sling shooters and anywhere from 2 to 6 shooters with bipod and bag. I dropped 4 points at my first match with a pretty decent x count (higher than the best sling shooter). Since then I have only dropped this many once and it was due to equipment failure. I usually drop 1 to 2 points now with a really high x count. Only once did I ever shoot a clean but x count was not near perfect.

I made it a personal choice not to use high end ammo, I have always used the cheaper Wolf ammo. I know that the higher end will eliminate some fliers and tighten up groups but I just never went there.

It amazes me how good some of these sling shooters are. I do understand that we have a great advantage over them with front and rear support. I don't think we need different targets though because I don't think two people will ever shoot a clean with perfect x count. At least with any wind present.

The above statement about the metric statement is true. It is very tough and requires extra concentration.

Anschutz 54 Match
Weaver 36x
Wolf ammo, the cheaper of the two

Eddie

 

[XTR]

I don't believe I've ever called anyone an idiot; I have in the past referred to sling shooters as bondage shooters; I don't recall referring to smelly coats.

My interest in service rifle is not particularly serious. I got a used coat from an estate sale, and picked up a White Oak upper here a few yrs ago. To date I've managed to get to one CMP games clinic, the chances that I will ever compete in Service rifle at Perry are extremely remote at best. I haven't fire 100 rounds through my AR. I'll won't say never, but I'm much more likely to shoot the BPTR championship at Raton before I sling up at Perry. ORSA does have a very active service rifle group at Oak Ridge and someday I may find time to shoot with them, but it's far from a priority.

I lived literally across the street from ORSA from 1995 until 2007 and never once had any desire to go join because it was my perception that all they shot was sling and irons. (I didn't know about F class until about 3 yrs ago, which corresponds to the time I got active on this and other BBs)


Oh yea, and as for ammo in my 22LR, I've a brick of SK Jagd and a brick of Wolf both in the $5 a box variety. I'm not planing any Eley purchases in the immediate future, or ever unless one of my sons gets into small bore competitions, at which time I'll give them an Anny and all the support they can stand.

 

[Xcount]

well Wade, I've always found it interesting how the top F class shooters don't have screw ball names for shooters with more talent than you will probably ever know, it's just the new guys like you that plop down with scopes and rests and think they are setting the world on fire that talk shit. Maybe you could understand why some people would call someone like that a F'er.

100 rounds on a sling and you've had enough eh? interesting.

have a nice day.

 

[wakajawaka]

50yds? There's already BR50.
It would have to be 200yds to be really new and interesting.

 

[XTR]

well Wade, I've always found it interesting how the top F class shooters don't have screw ball names for shooters with more talent than you will probably ever know, it's just the new guys like you that plop down with scopes and rests and think they are setting the world on fire that talk shit. Maybe you could understand why some people would call someone like that a F'er.

100 rounds on a sling and you've had enough eh? interesting.

have a nice day.

I don't have screwball names for anyone, and when have I "talked shit"? I acknowledge that I once wrote a post that referred to sling shooting as bondage shooting. I'm not going to go into the "some of my best friends..." defense, but if you take the time to read what I've written here and on Accurate Shooter you'll find that I have respect for the skill that it takes to shoot sling. I've more than once made the point that there is more to master shooting sling. I never said it was easy, I just don't happen to like it. I didn't like bulls eye pistol either, so I shot USPSA/IPSC back in the 80s and early 90s. (I wasn't very good but I had a lot of fun and became a far better shot that before I got into competition).

As to the 100 rounds. In FTR I shot a few thousand rounds in matches and practice last yr. I competed in the Nationals, the Worlds, a regional and two State championships. I also have a full time job and a family. I wish I had time to shoot F class, BPCR, Service Rifle and limit out in archery, ML and rifle in TN, but I don't. F class feeds my competitive needs. I like it. My AR is just not a priority for me, and I don't see it ever being one. I have always enjoyed shooting my pistols too, but I've not fired a round from my 45s in yrs. I'll find the time to play with the AR, and I'll shoot a local match here and there for giggles, but I don't see me ever being a serious competitor.

Your whole diatribe started when I mentioned my smallbore trainer, which I started building for the ability to practice my F class shooting with a 22lr, not to compete in a class that I discovered today. What would you suggest I bring to a match? My 10/22 with a 4x?

Now this thread is about the NRA sanctioning small bore F class, and that I can see me finding the time to promote locally. As to match shooting, I can't envision me ever trying compete outside of local matches. I don't have time for another competitive discipline.

Edit: one more thought on F-SBR. When F class started it was shot on the standard HP targets. It's pretty much a given that artificial support will raise scores. I know Frank Beckman shot something like a 200-23x in F-Open at the F Class Nationals in Oak Ridge the yr before they changed the target. When the NRA officially recognized F class we got the reduced target. I could easily see that after evaluating scores for three yrs under a provisional rule the target gets reduced for F-SBR. There are no records being recorded under the provisional rule. If the target proves to be too "easy" it'll get changed. F-SBR will probably end up shooting one of the 50 targets at 100, and something else at 50, it doesn't matter how hard it is as long as all the competitors are shooting the same target.

 

[BC 6.8]

This sounds very interesting. I don't know anything about smallbore. Would repeater rifles with a magazine be allowed or would it be single load only? Also, what rifles would be good for this competition? I only have experience with Marlin, Browning, and Ruger .22s and know they won't be accurate enough. I would assume something with a heavy barrel and a good trigger would be preferred. What would be some good rifle choices for SB F-TR? I know someone will say Anschutz, but which model? Also, are there other rifles that would be more budget friendly and still be competitive. I haven't shot any of the newer rimfire rifles. Is there a good rifle from CZ, Ruger, Winchester, or Savage that would work?

 

[tansinator]

XTR

How can you shoot a 200-23x? A perfect score is 200-20x. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Eddie

 

[BC 6.8]

XTR

How can you shoot a 200-23x? A perfect score is 200-20x. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Eddie

If you shoot a Perfect you keep shooting for Xs until you miss the X. That is the way they separate records. I've only seen the situation once in F-Open @ 300 yds since NRA adopted the new targets.

 

[dhg2]

In NRA Highpower and CMP rules, if you score a perfect score for the stage, you are allowed to continue firing more individual shots if slow fire, or another string of rapid fire, until you do not shoot an X. Thus, if slow fire, you continue to shoot until you miss an X. If rapid fire, you shoot another 10 shot string and continue to do so until you do not shoot another 10X string. At the point you stop shooting Xs, the score is calculated with the total number of Xs shot with the maximum score, ie 200-29X or whatever was shot.

Doug Giraud
Dist Rifleman #2126

 

[tansinator]

My bad, I get it now.

Eddie

 

[XTR]

This sounds very interesting. I don't know anything about smallbore. Would repeater rifles with a magazine be allowed or would it be single load only? Also, what rifles would be good for this competition? I only have experience with Marlin, Browning, and Ruger .22s and know they won't be accurate enough. I would assume something with a heavy barrel and a good trigger would be preferred. What would be some good rifle choices for SB F-TR? I know someone will say Anschutz, but which model? Also, are there other rifles that would be more budget friendly and still be competitive. I haven't shot any of the newer rimfire rifles. Is there a good rifle from CZ, Ruger, Winchester, or Savage that would work?

I think Anschutz is pretty much the benchmark. I've got a CZ453 that will hold MOA, actually a little better center to center, at 50 yards with SKJadg or Wolf $5/box ammo, I've never played with one of the Savage bolt guns but I hear that they will hold their own with the CZs, and I haven't got it shooting yet, but a 40X with a good barrel should do fine too.

I know there are about eighty gazillion upgrade parts out there for a 10/22, and maybe they could be gotten to shoot with the bolt guns but that would be a project I wouldn't tackle. Take a look over at rimfirecentral.com and ask some questions.

If I were going to play here locally, and I didn't already have the 40X project going I'd use my CZ453, if I didn't have a 22 and I wanted to get into the game, again with local guys and not spend a ton I'd probably start with a Savage or a CZ bolt gun until it became obvious that I was equipment limited, at which point I'd have to make a decision about whether I wanted to keep playing for fun or get serious and drop some $$ on a high end rimfire.

I started my 40x project to practice for F-TR because it has a R700 footprint, fits in the same stocks, and most importantly, will take the same Jewel triggers I use on my competition guns. I was looking for a duplicate experience with a rimfire.

 

[tansinator]

At our matches, at least %70 Annies, and the winner circle is %99 Annie

Eddie

 

[BC 6.8]

If anyone knows of any matches in the SC, NC, north GA, or east TN area, I would like to come out and try this F-SBR. Chattanooga is a bit far (4+ hrs) for me.

 

[XTR]

The problem I see right now is that all of the match schedules for this yr are into the NRA and back. You may not see any new approved matches this yr.

 

[AZ.noob]

BTW, you are all behind the curve because I saw shooters in Phoenix doing this years ago.

ahem

 

[clmayfield]

Late to the thread, but I just heard about this in my shooting club. I will be a guinea pig this weekend shooting the first F-class Match for my clubs. It will be a chance for me to be NRA rated because the stuff I like to shoot generally isn't sanctioned by the NRA. My understanding is that it will use the metric targets. They are trying to get a bead on what the targets need to be to make this competitive. I have been doing this for years at my club with a "mini-Palma" shoot as well as in the rimfire section on the Hide. This should be really interesting. And yes, it will be an equipment "arms" race, but what shooting sport isn't, these days? Sporter Air Rifle? I can't think of another.

 

[steve_podleski]

I wouldn't jump for joy to quickly. The one thing harder to get than Varget is 22 rimfire ammo. And top-grade 22rimfire cost as much as handloaded centerfire match ammo.

 

[clmayfield]

I have my sources. And I am sitting on 2-3 bricks of great stuff right now. Cheap 22LR is hard to find. The good stuff is actually more available than the cheap stuff. But yeah, it is going for $.30 a shot and up... a tiny bit cheaper than CF with no handloading time. Plus, negligible recoil and 500,000 round barrel life. Rimfire is still cheaper and easier on the shoulder than CF.

 

[russ10x]

They list recommended targets on the small bore rifle changes 2014 update (see last page): http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/rules/rul_sbr_14.pdf

Distances are just 50 & 100. Would have liked to have seen 200.

I too am ahead of the game times 2. 40x standard barrel (loves Ely Match) and 40xb heavy barrel (Midas...). Put them both in B&C A-2 stocks & jewell triggers. I went with the Sightron Big Sky 6.5x20x50. Get 20" per revolution - we shoot a match at 50, 100 & 200. One full turn and a little more gets you to 200, with a 50 zero.

Like all NRA sanctioined or non-sanctionied matche, you can set your own match bulliten. The 50 to 100 yard will be for record, and anything above that would be for local aggregate. It is done quite often on the high power side....

 

[Xcount]

Late to the thread, but I just heard about this in my shooting club. I will be a guinea pig this weekend shooting the first F-class Match for my clubs. It will be a chance for me to be NRA rated because the stuff I like to shoot generally isn't sanctioned by the NRA. My understanding is that it will use the metric targets. They are trying to get a bead on what the targets need to be to make this competitive. I have been doing this for years at my club with a "mini-Palma" shoot as well as in the rimfire section on the Hide. This should be really interesting. And yes, it will be an equipment "arms" race, but what shooting sport isn't, these days? Sporter Air Rifle? I can't think of another.

Carter,
NRA/CMP service rifle isn't an arms race. When you have to stand on your own two feet and hold a rifle, break a 4.5 pound trigger even a simple Wilson barreled stock AR win matches every weekend. Real rifleman shit, it doesn't take high dollar rifles or barrel burner calibers to win NRA matches. But you have to know how to shoot, really know how to shoot, not just plop your rifle down on a table and touch only the trigger. think about the difference before you comment about stuff you obviously don't know about.

 

[clmayfield]

Nobody ever free-floated a handguard, put in a match stainless barrel, or stuck a two-stage trigger in their service rifle looking for an edge. I have never heard of anyone doing that. And certainly, nobody throats their barrels to take 77 and 80 grain bullets to try to get a ballistic advantage at 600...

I can win local matches with a CMP Kimber 22 and Wolf ammo. That doesn't mean that I am not looking for every possible way to increase my scores, even if it is only for a point or an extra couple of X's.

The reason that I bring up Sporter Air Rifle is that it is done in such a way that it insures everybody is on the same playing field. They have 3 approved rifles. They must be unmodified and they must cost less than $500. Do people still test different brand of pellets, sort them, etc.? Yes, but it is about as level a playing field as I have seen.

Barring that, people will always be drawn to enhance their equipment to win. David Tubb was a great competitor not just for being a great shot, but for innovating not only his shooting stance, but equipment. He developed his own cartridge just for that extra edge (never mind designing his own rifle).

We have a lot of Juniors shooting 3 position and most of them are shooting red box with the others shooting black box. Does red box vs wolf ammo make a difference shooting off-hand? I wouldn't think so, but they won't risk an X shooting the cheaper stuff. If they are shooting red box in 3 position, it is a safe bet that F-SBR winners will be shooting the good stuff. I don't have a tuner on mine, but I would expect that to be the norm as well.

 

[marks_a18138]

Man I wish with all the craziness in rimfire that F-class smallbore had a better following. I see this post is from 2014 and rimfire was no where near as crazy. Now with NRL22 there are over 700 members in 2 years and 70+ clubs nationwide. Our club in South Texas has a rimfire match of some kind every week...Precision Rifle, NRL22, Marksman Challenge and ABRA benchrest. Starting this month we have added to every 5th sat SmallBore F-class to the line up except we have made one small rule change...Repeaters 22's are welcomed since 99.5% of my shooters are running Vudoo's and CZ's repeaters!