Nurse arrested for refusing to draw blood on unconscious person.
- Thread starter BALLISTIC
- Start date
- Status
In many states you agree to a provision of/in getting a D/L, if your a driver at fault of not involved in a accident, drawing your blood w/o a body warrant is legal. Alabama is one of those states.
add,... he had no legal right to arrest the nurse. She will be w/o any debt very soon, assuming she has any now.
add,... he had no legal right to arrest the nurse. She will be w/o any debt very soon, assuming she has any now.
Last edited:
He was a victim of a car crash. Hit head on by a suspect fleeing police. Suspect died. Why that officer thought he needed his blood is beyond me. The victim was not going anywhere, go get a damn warrant.
Understand your logic but it's a bit more complex than that. I understand the officers intent, and he will just use the I was following orders defense, but time is a complex factor with the body an toxicology findings.
The victim was a truck driver under FMCSA guidelines, FMCSA requires drug testing as soon as practical after an accident with fatality, regardless of wether the CDL holder was cited or not.
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/382.303
Someone is getting paid.
The only shame that will come out of this is that when she wins the lawsuit against the police, the money to pay her will come from the tax payers and not from the offender. Personally responsibility in all types/forms of government needs to happen.
The only shame that will come out of this is that when she wins the lawsuit against the police, the money to pay her will come from the tax payers and not from the offender. Personally responsibility in all types/forms of government needs to happen.
There was no need for toxicology. NONE what so ever. The victim was driving down the freeway (semi truck or he would probably be dead also) when a suspect being chased by police crossed the median and hit him head on.
Utah law DOES allow fluid removal from a suspect without his/her consent The news has gone over the law all day. I can't remember exactly how it was worded but, if charges are expected to be filed then fluid removal is a no brainier. I have not seen and I am not sure they are releasing or if it even exists video of when the officer first arrived. But according to the report when he was asked if the victim was in fact a suspect and charges might be pending the officer said "NO". At that point the law sides with the victim and the hospital.
The video I saw this morning was of the final 60 secs of the "confrontation" and her "arrest". The news report I saw said the she had called all her superiors and they called theirs and the hospital lawyer.
It was a good 30 minutes for it to all go down.
This is the problem we are having in this country in a big way and it is going to hit a wall and blow up hard.
We keep getting told "there are only a few bad apples" and how wonderful all the police are.
Yet when raging out of control officers (who we are told are very few and almost never happen), get exposed for doing crazy outlandish evil stuff, they are barely punished & all their departments seem to care about is shielding them from the consequences of their actions & their fellow officers are nowhere to be seen with condemning them.
If the police who say they are good and decent want to have any hope of not being all thought of as 3rd world corrupt tyrants, they NEED to get on the ball now and get rid of the rotten apples and do so publicly and to hell with their precious sacred unions that seem to only be there to protect the rotten apples.
What this officer did is CRIMINAL and inexcusable, he should be cooling his heels in jail while charges are brought up & having to pay for all the settlements himself.
If he is so God Damned concerned with trying to get his stupid blood sample, simply go down and lie to the local rubber stamping judge and come back with your warrant and all will be fine, guy is not going anywhere.
My guess is however the department will lie and cover up for him & then make the tax payers foot the bill for his evil deeds.
Then he'll next go on to start shooting people who don't bow down and lick his boots when he makes unconstitutional and unlawful demands.
But hey, don't believe me, stick you head in the sand and just wait for the lash back when enough good decent citizens have had all they are going to take of this crap.
Apparently rule of law and getting proper warrants and not being roid raging asshats with delusions of Judge Dredd idiocracy is too much for some these days.
In case you are a police officer and have no clue what I'm talking about let me give you an analogy.
Let's say I'm driving my car & I don't like some bikers ahead of me because they don't move out of my way quick enough, so I run them over.
So eventually the police come to sort things out.
Now imagine if the police told me, no problem, we'll take care of this for you & we'll drive you home and provide a driver to take you around for a few days & then give you your licence back.
Then they went to the rest of the bike club & said to get out your wallets as the rest of you will be paying for the medical bills of the biker that got run over.
How do you think people would feel?
Well that's how I feel as a taxpayer every time my taxes get paid to settle the evil some police officer did when they should have been kicked out on their ass long ago.
Most of the police who cause all the trouble and cost tax payers millions have a long history of being evil & being bullies & doing official oppression long before they gun down somebody.
I am solidly pro law and order & very much pro police, but I'm not one of these stupid blind sycophants who refuse to see the issues right in front of their eyes & make endless excuses for bad & criminal behavior by the people that WE hire as guards for our cites.
We keep getting told "there are only a few bad apples" and how wonderful all the police are.
Yet when raging out of control officers (who we are told are very few and almost never happen), get exposed for doing crazy outlandish evil stuff, they are barely punished & all their departments seem to care about is shielding them from the consequences of their actions & their fellow officers are nowhere to be seen with condemning them.
If the police who say they are good and decent want to have any hope of not being all thought of as 3rd world corrupt tyrants, they NEED to get on the ball now and get rid of the rotten apples and do so publicly and to hell with their precious sacred unions that seem to only be there to protect the rotten apples.
What this officer did is CRIMINAL and inexcusable, he should be cooling his heels in jail while charges are brought up & having to pay for all the settlements himself.
If he is so God Damned concerned with trying to get his stupid blood sample, simply go down and lie to the local rubber stamping judge and come back with your warrant and all will be fine, guy is not going anywhere.
My guess is however the department will lie and cover up for him & then make the tax payers foot the bill for his evil deeds.
Then he'll next go on to start shooting people who don't bow down and lick his boots when he makes unconstitutional and unlawful demands.
But hey, don't believe me, stick you head in the sand and just wait for the lash back when enough good decent citizens have had all they are going to take of this crap.
Apparently rule of law and getting proper warrants and not being roid raging asshats with delusions of Judge Dredd idiocracy is too much for some these days.
In case you are a police officer and have no clue what I'm talking about let me give you an analogy.
Let's say I'm driving my car & I don't like some bikers ahead of me because they don't move out of my way quick enough, so I run them over.
So eventually the police come to sort things out.
Now imagine if the police told me, no problem, we'll take care of this for you & we'll drive you home and provide a driver to take you around for a few days & then give you your licence back.
Then they went to the rest of the bike club & said to get out your wallets as the rest of you will be paying for the medical bills of the biker that got run over.
How do you think people would feel?
Well that's how I feel as a taxpayer every time my taxes get paid to settle the evil some police officer did when they should have been kicked out on their ass long ago.
Most of the police who cause all the trouble and cost tax payers millions have a long history of being evil & being bullies & doing official oppression long before they gun down somebody.
I am solidly pro law and order & very much pro police, but I'm not one of these stupid blind sycophants who refuse to see the issues right in front of their eyes & make endless excuses for bad & criminal behavior by the people that WE hire as guards for our cites.
Just watched a longer version, cops just cant stop shooting themselves in teh foot. Man, this makes my blood boil, too far.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU_RjebYDis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU_RjebYDis
As Ive said many times, its a bell curve, with some saints, some devils, and everything in between.
FWIW this asshole is suspended and will likely lose his job.
[h=1]Utah officer put on leave after handcuffing screaming nurse[/h] [IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"Associated Press","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/s.yimg.com\/lo\/api\/res\/1.2\/DuBQWBKPA4y5Oei3EAmwGA--\/YXBwaWQ9eW15O3c9MTUwO3NtPTE7aWw9cGxhbmU-\/http:\/\/l.yimg.com\/os\/152\/2012\/04\/21\/image001-png_162613.png.cf.jpg"}[/IMG2] LINDSAY WHITEHURST and SALLY HO,Associated Press 23 minutes ago
SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — A Utah nurse said she was scared to death when a police officer handcuffed and dragged her screaming from a hospital after she refused to allow blood to be drawn from an unconscious patient.
After Alex Wubbels and her attorneys released dramatic video of the arrest, prosecutors called for a criminal investigation and Salt Lake City police put Detective Jeff Payne on paid leave Friday.
"This cop bullied me. He bullied me to the utmost extreme," Wubbels said in an interview with The Associated Press. "And nobody stood in his way."
The Salt Lake City police chief and mayor also apologized and changed department policies in line with the guidance Wubbels was following in the July 26 incident.
Wubbels, a former alpine skier who competed in the 1998 and 2002 Winter Olympics, said she adhered to her training and hospital protocols to protect the rights of a patient who could not speak for himself.
"You can't just take blood if you don't have a legitimate concern for something to be tested," Wubbels said. "It is the most personal property I think that we can have besides our skin and bones and organs."
Payne did not return messages left at publicly listed phone numbers, and the Salt Lake Police Association union did not respond to messages for comment. The department and a civilian board also are conducting reviews.
"I was alarmed by what I saw in the video with our officer," Police Chief Mike Brown said.
Police body-camera video shows Wubbels, who works in the burn unit, calmly explaining that she could not take blood from a patient who had been injured in a deadly car accident, citing a recent change in law. A 2016 U.S. Supreme Court ruling said a blood sample cannot be taken without patient consent or a warrant.
Wubbels told Payne that a patient had to allow a blood sample to determine intoxication or be under arrest. Otherwise, she said police needed a warrant. Police did not, but Payne insisted.
The dispute ended with Payne saying, "We're done, you're under arrest" and pulling her outside while she screamed and said, "I've done nothing wrong!"
He had called his supervisor and discussed the time-sensitive blood draw for over an hour with hospital staff, police spokeswoman Christina Judd said.
"It's not an excuse. It definitely doesn't forgive what happened," she said.
Payne wrote in a police report that he grabbed Wubbels and took her outside to avoid causing a "scene" in the emergency room. He said his boss, a lieutenant whose actions also were being reviewed, told him to arrest Wubbels if she kept interfering.
The detective left Wubbels in a hot police car for 20 minutes before realizing that blood had already been drawn as part of treatment, said her lawyer, Karra Porter. Wubbels was not charged.
"This has upended her worldview in a way. She just couldn't believe this could happen," Porter said.
Wubbels and her attorneys on Thursday released the video they obtained through a public records request to call for change. She has not sued, but that could change, said attorney Jake Macfarlane.
Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim Gill said that the video was concerning and called the police chief to ask for a criminal investigation.
The department is open to the inquiry that will be run by Salt Lake County's Unified Police, Judd said. Gill's office will review the findings.
In response to the incident, Judd said the department updated its blood-draw policy last week to mirror what the hospital uses. She said officers have already received additional training.
The agency has met with hospital administration to ensure it does not happen again and to repair ties.
"There's a strong bond between fire, police and nurses because they all work together to help save lives, and this caused an unfortunate rift that we are hoping to repair immediately," Judd said.
The hospital said it's proud of the way Wubbels handled the situation.
The patient was a victim in a car crash and Payne wanted the blood sample to show he had done nothing wrong, according to the officer's written report.
The patient, William Gray, is a reserve police officer in Rigby, Idaho, according to the city's police. They thanked Wubbels for protecting his rights.
Gray is a semi-truck driver and was on the road when a pickup truck fleeing from authorities slammed into him and his truck burst into flames, police reports say.
she wasn't a screaming nurse, she was a nurse that was screaming while being falsely imprisoned, suprised that fuker didnt tase her or worse for resisting. I am surprised the gang in blue are not chiming in with her jay walking charges from elementary school. That motherfucker needs to get his jailed. the cops standing idly by while he commits a crime like he did need to get fkn suspended. Enough of this special treatment bullshit for cops. enough.
http://gawker.com/how-the-system-tre...l-g-1668194863
Bullshit Maggot, your fukin "saints " are accomplices and enablers, they are not saints.
http://gawker.com/how-the-system-tre...l-g-1668194863
Bullshit Maggot, your fukin "saints " are accomplices and enablers, they are not saints.
Since we're all perfectly equal,
I don't care so much about her being a woman but I do think it's about him not getting his way. Give him a two week suspension with no pay and if it happens again, fire his ass.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pXvVnvQOMQ0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
That is a little lite for me, I do approve/think justice should be swift. I've played this over an over in my mind wondering where it would have gone if a LEO had done this to my wife had she been the od nurse. It will be interesting to see this to play out in court for the officer way overstepped his badge, an a suit should be brought against him personally. Then again a smart lawyer will get his last mind fuck evaluation an turn it into a circus.
Yep. Though I think fired is far too lite for this situation. W54/XM-388 is spot on calling it "raging". This guy lost it and went for a brute force tantrum. Though he is clearly blocked by law from collecting a sample, and his body cam recording indicates he was aware of this, the object of his ire was this nurse. It will not be difficult to convince a jury that he was fully aware that what he was doing was wrong.
So many things went sideways here, but just to point out one... the hospital would have already drawn blood, probably multiple samples. Given the circumstances such a sample, though not the chain of custody the cops would like, would have sufficed as the truck driver was not a suspect to begin with. A little bit of professional-to-professional conversation would likely have had the outcome of a resolution that everybody could live with. Most detectives I know would have worked this out quite well.
Not only is it unfortunate that, as a cop, he should engage in an adversarial manner with a professionally mannered nurse, he is an ambulance worker of some sort. That nurse is a colleague, and by all accounts really good at her job. As for j-huskey's three bullet points above I'd say she checked them off with authority.
Last edited:
ya see MTT its not unfortunate this has become a pattern, the public is waking up to it, its not a coincidence, the other 5 cops standing there, doing nothing, wtf, that is a clear indication that there is a culture of law breaking in the police departments across this country. This si in hospital, in a non inner city environment, if it had been in a urban environment te same video with a black nurse, or a nurse that had a dui 30 years earlier the gang would be circling the wagons around this douche bag, They punish this muther fuker by not letting him have blood drawing duty anymore, who the fuk do they think they are dealing with, who the fuk do they think they are., they need a wakeup call, they are public servants, they aint mini fuking dictators, they are nothing more than a higher paid township employee with a goddam badge and a goddam gun, and most of them shouldnt even have that. I trust snuffy private after 8 weeks of boot carrying a 203 and full auto m16 more than I trust most cops with thieir guns.The culture of cover up at all costs is coming to an end, the cops have lost their last bit of self respect and support from their last bit of society.
That murderous bitch in Oklahoma is now working for another department, no more niceties coming from my side anymore toward the blue community, except for my close friends that are leos I am done as a defender of your gang.
That murderous bitch in Oklahoma is now working for another department, no more niceties coming from my side anymore toward the blue community, except for my close friends that are leos I am done as a defender of your gang.
hell, that somoli transplant that was hired as a cop in minneapolis killed that woman from austrailia, and mum is the word. aint heard a fucking thing about what they are doing to correct that, not a fucking word. far as i can tell, that piece of shit is still on the job.
and for the record, i am former military and did 2 years as an LEO before i decided it was something i wanted no part of.
i am pro cop in most situations...but there are some REALLY bad ones out there, and the departments cover for them.
at some point, i. do believe things will come to a head. regretably, the bad ones will probably escape justice until judgment day.
and for the record, i am former military and did 2 years as an LEO before i decided it was something i wanted no part of.
i am pro cop in most situations...but there are some REALLY bad ones out there, and the departments cover for them.
at some point, i. do believe things will come to a head. regretably, the bad ones will probably escape justice until judgment day.
This is a good read about the incident. http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/comme...d-nurse-was-wrong-but-the-law-is-complicated/
The situation as a whole very complex and complicated. if you locate and read the specific laws regarding Utah implied consent along with the laws involving CDL drivers involved with a fatality and Supreme Court rulings about DWI, implied consent and blood draws. I believe the situation could have been handle a lot better and I do hope the courts get involved to better clarify the laws for the future.
The situation as a whole very complex and complicated. if you locate and read the specific laws regarding Utah implied consent along with the laws involving CDL drivers involved with a fatality and Supreme Court rulings about DWI, implied consent and blood draws. I believe the situation could have been handle a lot better and I do hope the courts get involved to better clarify the laws for the future.
[h=1]EXPLANATION: Utah Nurse Arrested For Blocking Blood Draw[/h] BY SNARKY COP ON SEPTEMBER 1, 2017157 COMMENTS
Video shows a Salt Lake City detective arresting Nurse Alex Wubbels. [h=4]Salt Lake Nurse Arrested Over Blood Draw[/h]
Salt Lake City, UT – A viral video shows a Salt Lake City detective arresting a nurse for blocking a blood draw, leaving people looking for answers.
The police department is conducting an internal investigation and cannot release any conclusions until the investigation in complete.
Below, I’m going to offer a detailed explanation of the facts, as we know them, but there may be additional details which we aren’t aware of. This is an opinion based on limited information and the final investigation may yield a different conclusion. [h=6]The Incident[/h]
The incident started on July 26 at around 2 PM when a Utah Highway Patrol officer was in pursuit of a pickup truck on ST 89/91 near Sardine Canyon, according to Salt Lake Tribune.
While fleeing, the pickup truck crashed into a semi-truck head-on, causing an explosion.
The pickup driver, Marcos Torres, 26, died on scene. The semi driver, William Gray, exited his vehicle while he was on fire. He was transported to University Hospital in Salt Lake City for treatment.
You can see video of the crash below:
[h=6]The Blood Draw[/h]
Any time there is a collision resulting in death, it’s normal to determine if anybody involved was impaired. Because Gray was transported to Salt Lake City, Logan police officers on scene asked Salt Lake police to obtain a blood sample from Gray.
Salt Lake Detective Jeff Payne, a trained phlebotomist, responded to obtain a blood sample from Gray, but Gray was unconscious.
Nurse Alex Wubbels told Payne that an agreement between the hospital and police department does not allow for a warrantless blood draw without patient consent or without the patient being under arrest.
Detective Payne consulted with the watch commander, Lt. James Tracy, who told him to arrest Wubbels for interfering with the investigation if she didn’t allow him to draw blood from Gray.
Wubbels went over the policy with the detective again, and Detective Payne arrested Wubbels. Bodycam video of the incident shows the arrest.
Wubbels was later released without charges and the police department has launched an internal investigation.
You can see the video of the arrest below:
[h=6]The Lawfulness Of The Search[/h]
Breath samples and blood draws are technically a “search” and governed under 4th Amendment protections against unreasonable search and seizure. A person is being searched when their blood is drawn, and then their blood is being searched to obtain evidence of impairment.
In 2016, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled (Birchfield v North Dakota) that while breath samples were minimally invasive and did not require a warrant, blood samples did require a warrant.
Prior to the case in 2016, there was no clear guidance to law enforcement which said that blood draws required warrants, and warrantless blood draws could have been legal under a search incident to arrest or implied consent laws.
So a warrant is always required, right? Not exactly. There are multiple exceptions to any search warrant requirement. The two exceptions for blood draws are consent and exigent circumstances.
Gray was incapable of giving his consent, so that was off of the table.
That leaves exigency as the only possible exception in this case. The most common argument for exigency in a blood draw is that the drugs or alcohol, in a person’s blood, may significantly dissipate in the time that it takes to get a warrant.
Case law on this is mixed around the country, with some jurisdictions allowing for it and others prohibiting it. The U.S. Supreme court specifically left the exigency argument open in Birchfield v North Dakota.
Does that mean that Detective Payne could have completed a legal blood draw without a warrant. Possibly, except for one thing; Gray wasn’t under arrest, which suggests that there was no probable cause.
If there were no reasonable grounds to believe that Gray may have been impaired by drugs or alcohol, then a warrantless blood draw would have required consent.
Based on established case law, it appears unlikely that the search of Gray’s person would have been lawful. [h=6]The Arrest Of Nurse Wubbels[/h]
In the state of Utah, it’s not a crime to interfere with an unlawful search. If the search was lawful, then we must consider if there was probable case that Nurse Wubbels knowingly interfered with the blood draw.
The detective, a trained phlebotomist, could have presumably ignored her and tried to extract the blood. At that point if somebody physically obstructed him, then there would be a potential case for interference with a public servant. That doesn’t appear to be what happened.
Nurse Wubbels informed the detective of hospital policy which is no more than a failure to cooperate. I’m not familiar if there is specific Utah case law in which failure to cooperate constitutes interference, but it seems unlikely.
Based on the criminal violation, and the lawfulness of the search, it is fairly certain that the arrest was unlawful. [h=6]Lt. Tracy’s Orders[/h]
Watch commander, Lt. Tracy, reportedly ordered the blood draw and arrest of nurse Wubbels. The question arises if Detective Payne was obligated to follow the orders of his lieutenant.
The answer is that if the Detective believed that the order was unlawful, then he should have refused the order.
However, it is unlikely that Detective Payne believed that the order was unlawful.
If he had not been given an order to arrest Wubbels, Detective Payne would have had the discretion to leave her, and likely would have.
If Detective Payne believed that the order to arrest he was lawful, then he was obligated to follow the orders of his lieutenant. [h=6]Why Did This Happen?[/h]
We are getting deeper into the realm of speculation but it would be hard to infer any malicious intent from this incident.
The most likely cause of this incident is that Detective Payne believed that his actions were lawful, which would happen if he failed to receive training on case law updates. The Lieutenant then forced the incident to escalate by ordering an arrest of a nurse.
Police officers are responsible for being aware of well-established case law, and if it’s determined that the arrest was unlawful, both Detective Payne, Lt. Tracy, and the department would be liable.
Wubbels’ attorney has been in contact with the police department about training for officers, and officers have already begun to receive undated training. No lawsuit has been filed at this time.
The Salt Lake City Police Department has issued an apology over the incident.
Video shows a Salt Lake City detective arresting Nurse Alex Wubbels. [h=4]Salt Lake Nurse Arrested Over Blood Draw[/h]
Salt Lake City, UT – A viral video shows a Salt Lake City detective arresting a nurse for blocking a blood draw, leaving people looking for answers.
The police department is conducting an internal investigation and cannot release any conclusions until the investigation in complete.
Below, I’m going to offer a detailed explanation of the facts, as we know them, but there may be additional details which we aren’t aware of. This is an opinion based on limited information and the final investigation may yield a different conclusion. [h=6]The Incident[/h]
The incident started on July 26 at around 2 PM when a Utah Highway Patrol officer was in pursuit of a pickup truck on ST 89/91 near Sardine Canyon, according to Salt Lake Tribune.
While fleeing, the pickup truck crashed into a semi-truck head-on, causing an explosion.
The pickup driver, Marcos Torres, 26, died on scene. The semi driver, William Gray, exited his vehicle while he was on fire. He was transported to University Hospital in Salt Lake City for treatment.
You can see video of the crash below:
[h=6]The Blood Draw[/h]
Any time there is a collision resulting in death, it’s normal to determine if anybody involved was impaired. Because Gray was transported to Salt Lake City, Logan police officers on scene asked Salt Lake police to obtain a blood sample from Gray.
Salt Lake Detective Jeff Payne, a trained phlebotomist, responded to obtain a blood sample from Gray, but Gray was unconscious.
Nurse Alex Wubbels told Payne that an agreement between the hospital and police department does not allow for a warrantless blood draw without patient consent or without the patient being under arrest.
Detective Payne consulted with the watch commander, Lt. James Tracy, who told him to arrest Wubbels for interfering with the investigation if she didn’t allow him to draw blood from Gray.
Wubbels went over the policy with the detective again, and Detective Payne arrested Wubbels. Bodycam video of the incident shows the arrest.
Wubbels was later released without charges and the police department has launched an internal investigation.
You can see the video of the arrest below:
[h=6]The Lawfulness Of The Search[/h]
Breath samples and blood draws are technically a “search” and governed under 4th Amendment protections against unreasonable search and seizure. A person is being searched when their blood is drawn, and then their blood is being searched to obtain evidence of impairment.
In 2016, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled (Birchfield v North Dakota) that while breath samples were minimally invasive and did not require a warrant, blood samples did require a warrant.
Prior to the case in 2016, there was no clear guidance to law enforcement which said that blood draws required warrants, and warrantless blood draws could have been legal under a search incident to arrest or implied consent laws.
So a warrant is always required, right? Not exactly. There are multiple exceptions to any search warrant requirement. The two exceptions for blood draws are consent and exigent circumstances.
Gray was incapable of giving his consent, so that was off of the table.
That leaves exigency as the only possible exception in this case. The most common argument for exigency in a blood draw is that the drugs or alcohol, in a person’s blood, may significantly dissipate in the time that it takes to get a warrant.
Case law on this is mixed around the country, with some jurisdictions allowing for it and others prohibiting it. The U.S. Supreme court specifically left the exigency argument open in Birchfield v North Dakota.
Does that mean that Detective Payne could have completed a legal blood draw without a warrant. Possibly, except for one thing; Gray wasn’t under arrest, which suggests that there was no probable cause.
If there were no reasonable grounds to believe that Gray may have been impaired by drugs or alcohol, then a warrantless blood draw would have required consent.
Based on established case law, it appears unlikely that the search of Gray’s person would have been lawful. [h=6]The Arrest Of Nurse Wubbels[/h]
In the state of Utah, it’s not a crime to interfere with an unlawful search. If the search was lawful, then we must consider if there was probable case that Nurse Wubbels knowingly interfered with the blood draw.
The detective, a trained phlebotomist, could have presumably ignored her and tried to extract the blood. At that point if somebody physically obstructed him, then there would be a potential case for interference with a public servant. That doesn’t appear to be what happened.
Nurse Wubbels informed the detective of hospital policy which is no more than a failure to cooperate. I’m not familiar if there is specific Utah case law in which failure to cooperate constitutes interference, but it seems unlikely.
Based on the criminal violation, and the lawfulness of the search, it is fairly certain that the arrest was unlawful. [h=6]Lt. Tracy’s Orders[/h]
Watch commander, Lt. Tracy, reportedly ordered the blood draw and arrest of nurse Wubbels. The question arises if Detective Payne was obligated to follow the orders of his lieutenant.
The answer is that if the Detective believed that the order was unlawful, then he should have refused the order.
However, it is unlikely that Detective Payne believed that the order was unlawful.
If he had not been given an order to arrest Wubbels, Detective Payne would have had the discretion to leave her, and likely would have.
If Detective Payne believed that the order to arrest he was lawful, then he was obligated to follow the orders of his lieutenant. [h=6]Why Did This Happen?[/h]
We are getting deeper into the realm of speculation but it would be hard to infer any malicious intent from this incident.
The most likely cause of this incident is that Detective Payne believed that his actions were lawful, which would happen if he failed to receive training on case law updates. The Lieutenant then forced the incident to escalate by ordering an arrest of a nurse.
Police officers are responsible for being aware of well-established case law, and if it’s determined that the arrest was unlawful, both Detective Payne, Lt. Tracy, and the department would be liable.
Wubbels’ attorney has been in contact with the police department about training for officers, and officers have already begun to receive undated training. No lawsuit has been filed at this time.
The Salt Lake City Police Department has issued an apology over the incident.
Tap dancing, fuking tap dancing, this cop needs to be fired for being that fuking stupid, so does that Lieutenant, LEOs quibbling over why he did what he did are just going through their process of justifying being fuked up and agreeing with the assholes mental gymnastics that got thinking that arresting a nurse (or any citizen) unjustifiably is a good idea, you are protecting the gang. You all dont know how much hatred you garner when you do this same fuking tap dance time after timenas the bodies pile up and the violations grow.
Moses and GF miss some of my point.......
Internal investigation finds cause to fire. Hes fired. His post certification is revoked. He can't work le in UT again. Dept has no obligation to fund his civil liability.... it's on him, he's held responsible for his actions and he won't police again.....
That's correct procedure and due process is followed, it's done right... it's that fucking simple.
Retribution per GF comment is on whatever actor chooses to go that route, but, it is a two way range then, choose your poison....
The department then has obligations to meet. The other officers on the scene have to live with their conscience, the public review and fallout, and any discipline the department administered.
And the department has civil obligations to be met.
The Lieutenant that ordered the arrest, from off the scene, needs to be held responsible. Use of common sense and officer discretion would have solved this in 10 minutes.
THEY WILL ALL BE JUDGED ACCORDINGLY... they will get their due. might not be what some of the people want, but it will happen.
I know, this post is a total waste of my time. But, this is 37 years of le experience speaking, about handling the incident by the law and constitutionally, ie, doing it right.
Now, for the rest of the crew, there are 900,000 law enforcement officers policing 300 million people in the us. There are NOT 900,000 bad apples. For some people to keep saying some of the shit said here about the officers, it's not going to change until the stupid fucking retard POLITICIANS do their jobs.
Until THEY "AND" the select "bad" officers are held accountable it's status quo and the same comments will get repeated here, over and over.
People will continue to badmouth police and officers who have done nothing wrong will continue to take up for the good ones, kinda like a soap opera.
So, hopefully none of u get sand in your manginas over these comments. :- )
She doesn't have to, the hospital law team or another can on her behalf w/o her filing anything.
Not really, if I broke/break the law (depending charges) I face jail or prison. Him just getting his ass fired is not even close to being the same as. If I assaulted someone in Alabama like he did, I highly doubt the jury will settle for me just getting fired from my civi job, would be nice, but. You know an I both know the bitch is not blind in all matters, but sadly it seems as time goes on, she gets a longer peak to see if a badge is involved an moves the scale towards a different balance point on the fulcrum if so.
NOTHING will happen to him other than a day or two on the beach. Things will continue as is.
"We have investigated ourselves and can find nothing done wrong,"
Makes me want to puke.
I hope she sues his ass and the Dept. and wins.
LE needs to police it's own ranks but that does not happen very often. FM
"We have investigated ourselves and can find nothing done wrong,"
Makes me want to puke.
I hope she sues his ass and the Dept. and wins.
LE needs to police it's own ranks but that does not happen very often. FM
That was inexcusable period. Ya gotta love that little cellphone video camera. Hopefully they'll get that B.S. corrected.
JHusky, youve been around here longer than I and know that I can be the first to be critical of "bad cops". But to lump all inot that group is just not right and I stand with you. We have a couple good ones that i know of. In fact, I just visited with Sirh this week. A gentleman, and master museum curator. I havent met JerrrryStanley but Im guessing hes good people. I have other friends who are law enforcement. As in any group of anything, LEO's included theres all kinds. I choose to support the good ones, be very critical of the rots, and hope the middle ground moves in the right direction.
Missed that the first time, but your right it's on the person who steps up, but it may very well not be a two way, depending. The thing I find odd is if he perps criminal act, an over steps his badge his punishment is supposed to be less than those civi's charged with the same action? Seems like a double std to me. Interesting to hear differing view points because most I know, want those who have the power held to a higher std. With heaver punishment relative, to over stepping should it transcend. This was not a split second life/death decision, from what I seen/heard it was a job scared badge heavy action. Be interesting to know the prior's of both under investigation.
j-huskey, I apologize if I misrepresented anything you stated. I should be more careful. Aside from that I stand by anything I said.
As for firing him then he being liable for any damages, it does not matter when he gets fired, as long as the offense took place during his employment period the governing jurisdiction is on the hook. I reviewed an assload of cases and studies (breezed over) and found this (plagiarizing and winging it)... if she went after him it would be a civil action for deprivation of rights and we find ourselves at 42 U.S.C. § 1983. Herein lies the rub. Cops are, almost always, indemnified. When a plaintiff recovers damages in a civil suit the individual police officers virtually never pay anything toward settlements and judgments entered against them. Governments pay more than 99.98% of damages. The settlements and judgments are usually paid from jurisdictions' general funds with no financial impact on the involved law enforcement agencies, and some have suggested that agencies would have stronger incentives to improve behavior were they required to pay settlements and judgments from their budgets. Even under qualified immunity when plaintiffs have clearly established violation of constitutional or statutory rights the damages were paid from general funds. Bottom line, it winds up being a municipal liability.
My guess, outside of what the department decides for itself, absolutely nothing happens.
As for firing him then he being liable for any damages, it does not matter when he gets fired, as long as the offense took place during his employment period the governing jurisdiction is on the hook. I reviewed an assload of cases and studies (breezed over) and found this (plagiarizing and winging it)... if she went after him it would be a civil action for deprivation of rights and we find ourselves at 42 U.S.C. § 1983. Herein lies the rub. Cops are, almost always, indemnified. When a plaintiff recovers damages in a civil suit the individual police officers virtually never pay anything toward settlements and judgments entered against them. Governments pay more than 99.98% of damages. The settlements and judgments are usually paid from jurisdictions' general funds with no financial impact on the involved law enforcement agencies, and some have suggested that agencies would have stronger incentives to improve behavior were they required to pay settlements and judgments from their budgets. Even under qualified immunity when plaintiffs have clearly established violation of constitutional or statutory rights the damages were paid from general funds. Bottom line, it winds up being a municipal liability.
My guess, outside of what the department decides for itself, absolutely nothing happens.
Last edited:
Even if they DID get a blood sample, wouldn't the patient be pumped full of all kinds of pain killers and no telling what all else due to being burned severely? This would lead to either being inconclusive evidence or the false readings would be used to cover any liability of the LE dept, depending on the motives of the LE dept.
I bet they were hoping to get evidence the victim had alcohol or thc in his system to avoid the lawsuit that will come from the high speed chase that caused the accident. Like in all instances where the police actions are questioned even legitimately they would say he was the cause of his own accident, leaked blood tests would be use to besmirch the victims claims. That is the only reason I could see them looking for a crash victims blood sample. Devious and evil, and unfortunately this reputation assassination by the police is standard tactic t anyone who has a police civilian event. Even on here.
Insidious really. Read the comments.
https://bluelivesmatter.blue/salt-lake-nurse-arrest-video/
Insidious really. Read the comments.
https://bluelivesmatter.blue/salt-lake-nurse-arrest-video/
Last edited:
I have a solution to the problem..... require by law all law enforcement officers to carry malpractice insurance, this can be paid for thru the respective departments, then when they do stupid shit, their premiums sky rocket and their out of a job, and no other department will have them.
problem solved.
problem solved.
I predict that the bully and his LT. get to retire early and neither one of them issues an apology. The mayor and the City may but not those two They are too chicken shit.
I hope they are on reduced retirements but I doubt it.
Change has to come from within the ranks and as much as all involved and the others standing by looking in know change is needed they won't do it unless charges are filed from within and feet are held to the fire.
None of that will happen. It will be business as usual and the rift between the people and LE will continue to grow.
You reap what you sow.
I hope they are on reduced retirements but I doubt it.
Change has to come from within the ranks and as much as all involved and the others standing by looking in know change is needed they won't do it unless charges are filed from within and feet are held to the fire.
None of that will happen. It will be business as usual and the rift between the people and LE will continue to grow.
You reap what you sow.
Respectfully, the gender of the person should have no bearing on this case. In the eyes of the law, we are all to be treated equally. In academy we were trained to never underestimate a potential opponent based on size, gender, etc. Some of the most knockdown, dragout, fights I have been in were with "ladies". I would hazard a guess that many Hide members are involved with women that it would be a big mistake to underestimate.
That being said, manhandling any citizen this way for the reason stated is completely out of line. Given that this nurse was looking out not only for the rights of her patient, but ultimately also for the admissibility of any evidence obtained she was trying to do this officer a favor, but instead was taken into custody for it. Very, very disappointing. There are a whole host of disciplinary options available. Hopefully they won't over react or just sweep this under the rug- though that's not likely now.lol
Its a goddam pattern, its not fuking "disappointing", this is a goddam pattern of citizen abuse over and godam over, the other 5 frikken cops stood there and did nothing, wtf, you guys need to be put back in your place. Dont start up with the woes is me bullshit hero complex bullshit either, police yourselves you dumasses, you are getting to a point of no return, hell I think you are there right now, you dont arrest antifa, you set up political opponents to get mugged by fascist mother fukers then bitch when the same fascists throw piss bombs at you. YOU are half the problem, you and your municipal enablers/handlers. YOu are just as bad as antifa half the goddam time,,when you watch another cop go off his rocker on a citizen and you say nothing you are just as guilty as him. Someone above said its a very small percentage of cops that are bad, I think its higher than any of us thought and the cell phones and body cameras are showing just what kind of power mad buffoonery has been going on, and all the silent observers/enablers on the police forces nationwide.Respectfully my ass, you fks dont respect shit, not your fellow citizens, not the constitution, not the goddam law, you should wash that word from your mouth until you earn the right to use it again.
the gender of the person should have no bearing , really, did you not have a decent father?
whats wrong with you fuckin bums...
unlawfully manhandle a chick and we get that out of you, of all the things someone could say...
you guys better straighten your shit out, you are the ones going down...
maybe we dont need your self righteous asses
you have been in knock down dragout fights with ladies???
nigga pleeze
whats wrong with you fuckin bums...
unlawfully manhandle a chick and we get that out of you, of all the things someone could say...
you guys better straighten your shit out, you are the ones going down...
maybe we dont need your self righteous asses
you have been in knock down dragout fights with ladies???
nigga pleeze
Whoa! Maybe this guy was just having a piss-poor day and lost his shit. Who knows...My two points are
1) Doesn't matter what gender this person was, no citizen should be treated this way.
2) Hopefully, the officer will be disciplined correctly based on all the facts-they look to be pretty self evident-but none of us were there- and that it doesn't get swept under the rug.
I didn't catch any "woe is me bullshit hero complex" in there Jerry, and while you may not approve of how strongly worded ,or lack thereof, my response was, do you disagree with my two points above, or are you just pissed about the state of LEO/citizen/public relations?
Man it seems like I just said, "many, many sides" or some shit. You can handle your interpersonal relations with members of the opposite sex as you see fit. You can walk away, go spend the night at a buddy's house, whatever.
That changes if you have a duty to act. Above, AJ, castigates law enforcement for not acting to stop antifa during recent riots- and I agree with him. But some of the antifa protesters were women. Do they get the pretty-please-with-sugar-on-top treatment for destroying property and hurting people and the men get pepper spray, tasers, and batons?
I've already stated that this situation appears disappointing (Jerry didn't even give credit for the Very, very disappointing) and completely out of line. Your post doesn't engage the underlying situation here, only that the police were mean to a girl. Would it be acceptable to "unlawfully manhandle" a male nurse in that manner? Would the situation have been more or less acceptable if she would have been sprayed, tased, or had other less-than lethal force applied instead of "manhandled?
I don't think so. If you choose to consider people more or less of a threat based on their gender, that is your perogitive, but it's not reality. As to fights with women, my experience is that men know when the fight is over and stop fighting, women will continue to kick, punch, scratch, and fight long after the fight is lost. But I know, just go ahead and use your words.
P.S.- *I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS INCIDENT WHICH IS CLEARLY UNACCEPTABLE* Did you copy that Jerry, One Shot? But since you brought it up, what my father did teach me was that, "if you can't discipline yourself, somebody else will." And he didn't say that only applies to males.
Last edited:
you saying this situation appears disappointing, is disappointing, i am pro law enforcement, to the max...
but dont think for a second that we all dont see
but dont think for a second that we all dont see
No credit for the " Very, vey disappointed " from you either? So if I string together a bunch of profanity and add some exclamation points while demanding that this guy be guilty until proven innocent I'll be back in the good graces of hard core constitutionalists and defenders of the weaker sex?
Last edited:
This issue was captured on video, hence this thread. What about all the other similar issues we never hear/see? The flip side is what about the good ones who do the right thing an are never paraded for it? Some enforce the letter, some the intent, yet to me the best enforce the right thing to do at the time.
Ladies, not sure...
Female, YES.
In fact, the last officer in our department murdered, was shot in the back by a woman with a glock 19 in a Wal-Mart parking lot in front of over 100 witnesses.
That female got the honor to also be the last person to grace "old sparky" b4 the state went to lethal injection.
15% of the department arrests were female. A good number were armed with knives and an equal number resisted violently. Here lately meth females make interesting encounters.
One of the department female arrests was a nurse who hired her boyfriend to kill her husband to collect a large insurance policy, one was a paramedic who was removing drugs from the emergency truck stash...
Just sayin.....
In answering your question, Yes..
- Status
