Gunsmithing "Objective Research" thread & cleaning rods

[dpilot83]

I just spent quite a bit of time reading through that thread. Actually only got through 2 or 3 pages of it, but I never saw anyone commenting on this.

If you're not worried about copper moving at 3,000 fps and 4,000 degree temperatures and 60,000 psi pressures all combined messing your barrel up, why are you worried about an aluminum or even a steel cleaning rod scratching your barrel when that rod:

1. Will not be pushing against the barrel itself with more than a pound or so of force (even if you don't use a bore guide) and

2. it will only be moving at a few feet per second and

3. it will be at room temperature

I'm not saying I think the original poster in that thread was wrong about break in and overcleaning, etc. I agree. I also do not doubt that cleaning rods cause damage because several have said they have seen the results with borescopes (which I don't have access to).

What I am saying is how is this even possible?! I've moved a fair amount of metal with oxy/acetylene and oxy/propane torches, grinders, chisels, files, die grinders and screwdrivers (just to remove chips when I had nothing better at the time available).

If I take all that experience working on various pieces of metal on the farm, and I imagine intentionally trying to scratch the inside of a rifle bore, I would not choose any sort of cleaning rod in an attempt to scratch said bore. In my experience, it's just not easy for one piece of metal to make a mark on another piece of metal with only the force of your hands unless the tool you're holding is designed to move metal.

On a cleaning rod in particular, the angles are just all wrong. Let's say the rifling is on the outside of your barrel rather than on the inside of the barrel and I were going to try to scratch it with a hand tool. Well, I'd probably take a chisel and hold it at a 45 degree angle and drag it along the rifling with as much pressure as I could muster.

I would not take a blunt object (such as the dreaded extension connector of a multi-section cleaning rod) and rub it against the rifle totally parallel to the bore.

I fully realize I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just taking my real world experience and trying to relate it to what I have been reading on various gun forums. I believe someone out there has the experience to explain to me where I'm looking at this wrong and that's why I'm here. I'm not here to tell all the experienced gun smiths that they have no idea what they're talking about. I'm asking a question so that I can learn. Thanks in advance for what I'm sure will be a deluge of good info on this topic.

 

[Gene Poole]

Re: "Objective Research" thread & cleaning rods

I'm hearin' you. I'd never given it much thought until I went to a 3-day precision rifle course with a friend. I'd always used my trusty M-14 cleaning kit the same as I'd been taught in the military; shoving it in from the muzzle end. We were cleaning our guns in the hotel(1) after the first day and my partner about freaked when he saw me run that M-14 rod down the muzzle of my bolt gun.

I've since jumped on the wagon and got myself a guide and carbon fiber rod and all the fancy stuff, but I don't know if the way I did things before is any worse. One thing I've noticed with my new barreled action from C. Dixon, the crown is NOT chamfered at the bore like most barrels (I understand Chad is keen on this method) so ramming a segmented rod from the muzzle end on this action DOES seem like a bad idea to me now.

1. I don't think Marriott approves this sort of use of their hotel rooms:

Interestingly we ended up in room 308:

 

[WadeT]

Re: "Objective Research" thread & cleaning rods

While your logic does make sense, obtain a borescope and look at your barrels. In a borescope it is evident what steel cleaning rods or rods without bore guides do. Most of the damage seems to be at the crown.

 

[seanh]

Re: "Objective Research" thread & cleaning rods

why worry about a scratch or other material in the bbl?

Because if you scratch the bbl or place other material (such as aluminum) in the bbl, you'll end up with another place that picks up copper from the jacket...this will cause unnecessary fouling.

As to the crown end getting scratches... That is the last place the bbl and bullet meet so it has to be the most uniform in order to create the best possible accuracy.

What does all this mean...For a hunting rifle but it can cause yo to lose a benchrest competition or 1k match.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: "Objective Research" thread & cleaning rods

Aluminum or bronze is not hard enough to abrade a bore interior.

But some fouling components (i.e. glass particle residue from primer combustion, etc.) <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">are</span></span> harder than bore surface material, and can combine in suspension with dirty cleaning solvent to lap and burnish the bore's interior as the rod rubs parallel to the bore surface.

Over time this wear can significantly erode rifling contours, and enlarge throat and muzzle points of exit. It is this process that prompts many of us to consider wear from cleaning to be the leading cause of internal bore wear.

This is one reason why I make it a point to wipe down my cleaning rod every time it gets removed from the bore. (Edited to add: I use stainless steel cleaning rods to resist embedded abrasive, and prevent chemical staining of my patches, which can be misleading when trying to detect residual copper fouling.)

The rod guide, inserted in the bolt raceway, helps avoid such wear by largely eliminating rod to bore misalignment and rod/bore contact in the crucial throat region. This major advantage is completely negated when guide tips and rod diameters are mismatched.

As a Marine Recruit in early 1966, our DI brought in expended 12ga cartridge hulls, and taught us how to knock out the primers and enlarge the flash hole so it provided a snug guide for the cleaning rod. The resulting rod guide was a snug fit over the M-14's flash suppressor, and allowed the cleaning rod to be inserted through the cartridge's empty primer pocket from the muzzle end with minimal/no contact with the bore at the muzzle end. When I bought my M1A, I revived the practice.

Greg

 

[Clark]

Re: "Objective Research" thread & cleaning rods

The two schools of thought are:

1) Get a soft cleaning rod that can't scratch.
2) Get a hard cleaning rod that no particles will embed.

I have both.
I tend to go with the soft Dewey rods, and wipe the off each time before putting them in.

Randy Ketchum, who knows more than me, goes with the hard rods.

 

[zuke]

Re: "Objective Research" thread & cleaning rods

I too wipe my rod's after taking them out.
The crap that's on them make's a helluve mess on a carpet when you knock one over and they land on the floor.

 

[northern50]

Re: "Objective Research" thread & cleaning rods

You pretty much summed up my thoughts. Keep your crown sharp and don't worry about the rest behind it. Practical experience and common knowledge weeds out a lot of bull shit on Internet forums.