OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

coues7

coues7

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Minuteman
Feb 3, 2007
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46
White Mountains AZ
#1
I've had this rifle built in 2007. It was built by George himself. I've shot match grade ammo, reloads and everything in between. I've never really been able to get anything under .75 MOA until today.

I started fiddling (AGAIN) with the 190gr SMK's and Reloader 22 again today. Doesn't GAP base most of their rifles off of the FGMM round?

According to OnTarget the best groups today were 0.597" and 0.599" both at 73.4gr.

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Load Data:</span></span>
Federal once fired brass
190gr SMK
FGMM 215M
RL-22 (Charge as shown)
2.873 (Base to Ogive)
Set at 2.863 (0.010 off lands)
Reloaded on Forster Co-Ax
All charges weighed on Acculab
Redding Type-S Competition Dies w/ 0.335 bushing

Sierra's Max load was 72.7gr (I never saw pressures signs on any of my stuff)

Below are my targets. Any thoughts?

IMG_2242.jpg

IMG_2235.jpg


Is it me? Is it my shooting?
 
#2
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Using precisely the same everything absolutely (shoulder set-back, seating depth, etc.), load
three 72.3 rounds;
three 72.8 rounds;
three 73.2 rounds.
Shoot them at <span style="color: #FF0000">200 yards</span>, one 72.3 at target #1, then one 72.8 at t#2, 73.2 at t3, 72.3/t1, 72.8/t2,t3,t1,t2,t3 in that order only, cooling the barrel the same period of time between each shot. Bolt open vents the barrel but you know that. Take a fan of some kind if necessary if you have one and stick it where the wind won't blow down the chamber.
wink.gif

Pick the middle group and then play with seating depth to close the group. We don't know if its your shooting. Less than an moa ain't shabby though.
</span>
 
#3
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

I should have explained my firing procedure. I'm doing EXACTLY as you described. I shoot a single round of a particular charge, put a Coleman air bed infiltrator into the barrel and let it run for 2 minutes. Then shot a single shot of another powder charge and repeat the cooling of 2 minutes.....All shots were done round robin.

One set of targets was shot a 0630 this morning and then another set was shot a 0900. I couldn't get any consistency out of the 1st set (written in red) so I shot the 2nd set (written in blue).

For a $3500 rifle, not including scope that is guaranteed to shoot 1/2 MOA or better is damn shitty.
 
#4
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

Well looking at the target I would work around 72.7grs to 73.0 grs. Look at 72.3 thru 73.2, they share the same point of impact. Dont look at groups yet, you can adjust later with COL length. 73.4gr 73.6 it starts to rise.

If it was my guess I'd roll with 72.7gr adjust col to best group. Then go back and test it with one round each at 72.2, 72.7,73.2. Should all go in MOA easy. You want you OCW to go either way plus or minus 1% and still hit same POI.
 
#5
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22


You did fine, but do this now and you'll be good;

three 72.3 rounds;
three 72.8 rounds;
three 73.2 rounds.

Pick the middle group and then play with seating depth to close the group. We don't know if its your shooting. Less than an moa ain't shabby though.

Coues, he guaranteed the gun not the shooter, the loader, the bullets, the powder, the cases, the press, the atmosphere. You know. Some days I just am not on my game either. George can probably make it shoot a .2moa. But I probably cannot. Shoot it prone and see what you get.
 
#6
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

What do you guys recommend for seating depth? I'm 0.010" off right now....

I didn't buy the rifle with the thought that a mediocre shooter (the person not the rifle) could be made into an All-Star shooter, but I can shoot other rifles and other manufactures just fine. It's this rifle and this rifle only. It is NOT PERFORMING with "match grade ammo". END OF STORY. If I didn't reload, I'd be more pissed than I am right now. I have every level of confidence in my reloading.....
 
#9
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

What twist and length is your barrel? Your gun just might not like the 190SMKs try a few different bullet weights 208 Amax's seem to shoot well out of teh 30cals and you could always drop down into the 180-185 grain arena. Not saying this is the issue but some guns just don't shoot what we want them to well...but they all have a sweet spot just needs to be found. I would play around with powders to. again, you can't do all these changes all at once. Load development takes patients and time but well worth it.
 
#11
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

in theory yes...but it doesn't always work that way. My 260 is a 1:8 twist my buddy's gun has the same twist my shoots 1/4 inch groups with 140s and 142 SMKs his will not shoot either of them period so he shoots 130s and 123s scenars...each gun is slightly different. Your gun should be shooting better then what you posted....so if you are determined to stay with 190s I would go to a different powder or go with a different weight bullet.
 
#12
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

I shoot 190gr. SMK's
over 73gr. R-22
M215 FGMM primers
Out of a TRG 300WM w/ 1:10 twist

It shoots sub.MOA out 2 1,000yrds with one ragged hole @ 100yrds.

you may try adjusting your setting depth.

Hope this helps...

LOBO 151
 
#15
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

coues, i did a ladder workup on my surgeon 300wm , actually 2 ladders first .010 off lands then i one .002 off and the diff was astounding!!!! the .002 shrunk my ladder to very tight nodes. just watch for flat primers as you go up. i did my testing at 400 that is just enough to let you know whats going on when your getting these tack drivers dialed in, any closer once you get it in the sweet spot and you wont be able to tell whats going on
 
#16
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

watch the 1. primers 2.nodes and speeds are what they are. speed still important,but im not concerned with pushing the 190 to 3k as much as puttin them in tiny little clusters.
 
#17
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

I'll take the Oehler 35P out with me next time. We don't have a shooting range around here so I'll have to shoot out of the bed of the truck to get up high enough. I've debated over and over in my head weather to go with a ladder or a OCW and ultimately finally went with the OCW. I'll try both next time.

Does anyone have a couple of varieties of "match grade ammo" that they could measure for me? I use the Stoney Point Bullet Comparator to measure base to ogive. When originally getting set up I use a fired case with slits down the side of the neck with a 190gr SMK slid in. Simply chamber it gently and then eject is gently, then measure. Repeated 3-5 times to get a good aggregate.

I know my reloading skills are good and I have the best equipment. I've been meticulous about every detail on these reload. The only place where I can see that I may have possibly fallen short is on re-using the Federal brass. These all came from the "match grade ammo" that was supposed to shoot at least 1/2 MOA.....DIDN'T HAPPEN.
 
#18
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22


Coues, your're at .0010" now. Go .0050" off the lands, then .0020, .0030, .0040.......
SMK's are jump tolerant and you're also changing pressure and thus velocity in a finer adjustment sort of manner. Go slow and be patient. I get in a hurry at this point and just want to get it done.

Truck is bad. The wind is gonna move your truck but maybe not if its got very stiff springs.

Check your bullet runout if you can.

Stay with OCW. Guys will state why they like ladder. That does not mean ladder is better than OCW. It is not. You are nearly there.
 
#19
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

67 grains IMR4350 with the 190 SMK. My OAL is 3.485", just inside what it takes to fit a AICS mag. My Surgeon Scalpel with 1 in 10 twist Krieger, 26" length, really likes this load. I am at about 500' above sea level and get 2957 FPS. You will likely get more out of it due to altitude.
This load is inside the range of published data.
I get the feeling you're not happy with the rifle. Look on the bright side. If you keep trying for 1/2 MOA you'll wear that barrel out and maybe get a less finicky one next time.
smile.gif
 
#20
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coues7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Is it me? Is it my shooting? </div></div>
At this point it could be, does this rifle have a brake on it? It could be shooter fatigue.
Do a very deep cleaning of your rifle and then shoot some foulers.

I would recommend doing a ladder test at, say 4-500 yards, with .2 grn increments in the charge range that you know is safe. Pick the center of your cluster and work from there. I would also start out at max mag length, because if this is a tactical rifle it isn't going to do you any good to single feed them. IMHO chasing the lands on a tactical rifle is a waste of time. I have seen a guy tie for first place at one of our matches, come to find out that the first seven inches of his barrel was worn smooth (.300 win mag with 3,000 shots down the pipe.

My last suggestion would be to study the reloading section and find what others are using with the same barrel.
Good luck,
SScott
 
#21
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jerseymike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">any idea what velocities youre getting with those loads? </div></div>

just for an example...
73gr. R-22 under
190SMK w/
M215 FGMM Mag primer
out of a TRG 43 300WM 1:10 twist
is around...2,990-2,995fps.


LOBO 151
 
#22
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

coues,

You've got the sweet spot area figured out. The high 72 to low 73 grain area is it. Seat the bullet out to just touching the rifling. (i.e- when you eject a loaded round you will see slight rifling marks left on the bullet). This will be the best seating depth for the 190. Load up 5 rounds in .2 grain increments in your sweet spot area, and shoot them at 300 yards.

The truck bed is not the best spot to try and shoot tight groups. You will always have slight movement. Test the load at 300 yards prone on the ground with a good bi-pod and solid rear bag, and see what you get. If you can get the velocity around 2950 to 3050, then you should find a good load. Work on consistant shooting position from shot to shot. When I shoot for tight groups, I never come off the gun during a 4-5 round string. If you don't have a muzzle brake, get in tight on the gun in your shoulder with firm pressure on the cheek. Don't "cook" the round in the chamber any longer than 5-10 seconds before shooting. These are just a few tips to help get more consistant. Hope this helps!

Chad
 
#23
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

The rifle has an American Precision Fat Bastard Brake on it. I don't have any problem with flinching or the recoil. The rifle actually has very little recoil with that brake on it.

I'll test closer to the lands. I know that from base to ogive using the Stoney Point Bullet Comparator that I need to be at 2.873. I don't have the equipment as of yet to test concentricity, but I'm using the Forster Co-Ax, which technically should help keep non-concentric rounds to a minimum. Maybe once I get a load that shoots well I'll shoot off the truck and check velocities.
 
#24
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

Looks like you have a plan that will work, closer to the lands might tighten things up for you.
Then again going away from the lands has also proven to make some of my groups smaller, I would also try around .025-.030" off if closer doesn't get it.
Looking forward to hearing about and seeing the results.
Take care,
Wayne
 
#25
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

Since everyone here has given you good advice on reloading. I am curious about your setup. Are you shooting from a Bipod, bag, or another front support?

The reason I ask this is I own a custom 300RUM in what I call a lightweight hunter, and I was having similar results as you. Long story short I was shooting from a bipod and figured out if I hold firmly on the forend grip the groups, and the rifle settled down. Hope this helps, good luck!
 
#27
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

coues,

+1 on what chad said.

Looking at your targets, I'd go with the 73.0gr charge and play with your seating depth. If you triangulate your groups it looks like you've got a sweet spot right around 73.0 gr.

If it were me, I'd load 72.8 73.0 73.2 grains 3 round each and shoot at 300 yards or so.

Confirm my node, then play with seating depth to fine tune the load.
 
#28
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coues7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm shooting off a Harris bi-pod with a rear bag. When I shoot I push forward on the bi-pod so that it is "loaded" just like Lowlights training. </div></div>
Loading the bi-pod is good, IF (big if) you can apply the same pressure each time. A lot of times the surface I am shooting on does not allow the bi-pod to be loaded, because the bi-pod will slide forward when pressure is applied. I do not apply any forward pressure on the bi-pod. It will effect your vertical point of impact if you load or don't load, or vary the amount of pressure when loading the bi-pod. Just keep this in mind.
 
#30
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

Went out and shot some more groups this morning. I focused on 73.0, 73.2, and 73.4 and set the jump to 0.05". I think I'll focus on 73.4 and 73.6, but put the seating depth at 0.01".

Groups2.jpg

Groups1.jpg
 
#31
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

Am I playing with too much at once by switching to 0.01 Jump? I'll still have two 5 shot groups of the 74.3gr (lower left target in the top picture and bottom middle in the bottom picture). That one seems to be grouping the best.
 
#32
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

I have the same barrel and twist you do.

It shoots lights out with 208gr. AMAX's and 71.0gr. of RL-22. I cant remember the ogive length but I know the oal was 3.598" avg. I was jumping them. 020".

My190gr. Smk load with 72.8grs. Shoots good (sub-moa) but not as good as the 208gr. AMAX, 210gr. Berger VLD or the new Hornady 225gr.hpbt.

Try the 208gr. Starting at 68.0gr and work your way up.
 
#33
Re: OCW: GAP 300WM 190gr SMK RL-22

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coues7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it me? Is it my shooting? </div></div>
Mine (GAP)did the same thing, when it first came back it would not print FGMM into anything less than 1.25 MOA. As a matter of fact I was breaking it in when I first met ASM1 an he was a wit to it. It was so bad I pulled my old 700VS to verify I could still shoot, an she drilled one hole like always. I put 5440 rds down that tube and it would print under 1/2 sometimes. My side kick is a half ass LE shooter,(many LEO's here may know, as OSOK), an he said it was me, the first time I shot it around him. So he straps her on an she kicked his ass as well.
Have someone else shoot it, with FGMM. If it won't shoot the federal, you have two options, an they both suck.

Had it re-barreled by a no name, when it came back it would/will shoot anything I feed it, an as I still had some of the FGMM left from the first barrel I tried some of it. 3 five rd groups, an not one group was over 3/8".
She prefers 71.5 grs of Re-22 pushing a 190smk lite with a 210M.
 
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