OCW workup 223

[Mudflap621]

Hi guys I’ve been lurking around gaining information from you guys for last few months and just got done loading my first 223 workup for a tikka varmint. I’m using varget and 77smk in lake city brass. My question is regarding the seating depth. I measured my chamber and loaded the rounds 5 thousandths off the lands for this workup but is this too close to start? I’d rather ask now than shoot and run into any issues and figured going deeper would be quick fix.
loads go from 22.6-23.8gr varget coal approx 2.28

thanks in advance.

 

[spife7980]

Too close? No. It will probably not be where it shoots best but it wont hurt.

 

[Missalot]

On my Sierra phone app, it says that product #9377, the 77g HPBT Match using OAL 2.26" max load is 22.6g of Varget in a bolt gun with a velocity of 2710. If this is right, you are starting too hot.

 

[Mudflap621]

On my Sierra phone app, it says that product #9377, the 77g HPBT Match using OAL 2.26" max load is 22.6g of Varget in a bolt gun with a velocity of 2710. If this is right, you are starting too hot.

Ugh that sucks. My Lee manual shows 21-23.7gr and Lyman is showing 22.5-25gr doesn’t differentiate between bolt vs gas gun.

 

[IowaGeologist]

On my Sierra phone app, it says that product #9377, the 77g HPBT Match using OAL 2.26" max load is 22.6g of Varget in a bolt gun with a velocity of 2710. If this is right, you are starting too hot.

And on the Hodgdon site is shows the 77 at 21 gr (min) to 23.7 gr (max). Also, sounds like he's playing with seating depth so very likely they're over 2.260".

Sierra's lawyers are very cautious. I personally think that is a good place to start, especially with something like Varget in LC brass.

 

[Mudflap621]

Coal as they sit is approx 2.28 and that’s giving me about 5 thousandths off lands. I’m measuring cbto and they are all within half a thou. Seems a lot more that I read most guys are starting development at 20 thousandths off so I might just run these through the die again and push them down a little farther if it’s recommended. I’ll make sure to check for pressure as I go as well.

 

[IowaGeologist]

Coal as they sit is approx 2.28 and that’s giving me about 5 thousandths off lands. I’m measuring cbto and they are all within half a thou. Seems a lot more that I read most guys are starting development at 20 thousandths off so I might just run these through the die again and push them down a little farther if it’s recommended. I’ll make sure to check for pressure as I go as well.

Yeah, I'd start at 0.015 or 0.020 off to start and go from there. SMKs usually have no problem jumping a little bit.

 

[supercorndogs]

.005 is pretty darn close. You could end up with one that jams depending on how consistent the bullets and bullet seating are.

 

[padom]

On my Sierra phone app, it says that product #9377, the 77g HPBT Match using OAL 2.26" max load is 22.6g of Varget in a bolt gun with a velocity of 2710. If this is right, you are starting too hot.

No he is not and can go higher in a bolt gun. My load is 24gr...

 

[padom]

Some guys start at .02 off... some start touching and work up so they find their max pressure then adjust seating depth.... you choose but definitely work up

 

[supercorndogs]

24g is pretty tough on brass in my experience.

 

[Mudflap621]

Thanks guys input greatly appreciated. Seems consensus is I’m close to the right track. Hoping to get out this weekend so I’m sure there will be more questions to follow.

 

[padom]

24g is pretty tough on brass in my experience.

Ive shot 7 different barrels all for my TL3 chambered in 223 Wylde running 75 ELD-M or 80 Amax with 24.4gr and my brass pockets are nice and tight after 7 reloads.. Zero pressure or issues with my brass with 24.4gr Varget and 75 ELD-M... Loaded out to 2.49" COAL in 223 AICS mags. I know Greg at Bugholes runs 25gr or 25.2gr with 80 Amax which to me that is hot...

Now we are talking bolt gun loads here with rounds loaded out much longer.... I would agree if we were talking about an AR....but in a bolt gun these are mild loads in a 223 Wylde chamber in my TL3 across 7 different barrels and smiths all using a 223 Wylde chamber.

Correction Im running 24.4gr Varget


26" MW 223 Wylde Barrel,






Im running 24.0gr H4895 with the 75 ELD-M






26" Krieger 223 Wylde Barrel





26" Criterion 223 Wylde

 

[supercorndogs]

I shot 24.3 with the 75 a max twice in LC brass in my Wylde chamber and now the pockets are loose.

 

[padom]

I shot 24.3 with the 75 a max twice in LC brass in my Wylde chamber and now the pockets are loose.

I cannot speak to LC brass as I shot everything with Lapua...

But I use the Ballistic Tools Go and No Go pocket gauge....the GO is nice and tight, the no go will not even go in on these 7x 24.4gr brass... I've been shooting this load for quite a few years now and it's mild for me. Idk what else to say. Zero brass issues pockets are nice and tight

Small and Large Primer Pocket Swage Gage ® Set

Swage Gage Small Primer Pocket Gauge

ballistictools.com

 

[260284]

Hi guys I’ve been lurking around gaining information from you guys for last few months and just got done loading my first 223 workup for a tikka varmint. I’m using varget and 77smk in lake city brass. My question is regarding the seating depth. I measured my chamber and loaded the rounds 5 thousandths off the lands for this workup but is this too close to start? I’d rather ask now than shoot and run into any issues and figured going deeper would be quick fix.
loads go from 22.6-23.8gr varget coal approx 2.28

thanks in advance.

I ran up to almost 25gr of Varget in NAMMO brass with the 75gr ELDM in my Tikka Varmint. They shot the best at .020" off the lands. I ended up with better velocity and accuracy with H4895 and am over 24 grains. My COAL with the ELDM is 2.49"

I have only shot the 77gr SMK out of it in the IMI 556 factory loads and they shot under .75 moa at AR mag length, so they were jumping a mile. If you are running AICS mags, I would start at .020" off and see how they shoot. I have some of the 69gr and 77gr TMK and the 77gr SMK to play with, but not until I run out of the ELDMs I have.

Start middle of the road with your powder charge and see what you get with velocity. Stop when you get good accuracy and a good SD.

 

[Xcount]

I shot 24.3 with the 75 a max twice in LC brass in my Wylde chamber and now the pockets are loose.

It depends on what length you put the Amax at. They are not designed for mag length.

 

[padom]

Yep H4895 is my go to...almost 0.5gr less powder and almost 100fps more velocity with amazing accuracy. I shoot this load out to 700 all the time and it matches my 6.5cm ballistics to 800. One of my favorite bolt gun calibers

 

[GMZ]

Loading long changes the game.

2.26 is for ARs. I’m at 5x on Lapua brass with 24.6 Varget under a 75 ELD coal 2.490 @2900 FPS and my go/no go gage also won’t even go in the pocket. Seating primers feels plenty tight. Hoping for 15x from the brass.

Yep H4895 is my go to...almost 0.5gr less powder and almost 100fps more velocity with amazing accuracy. I shoot this load out to 700 all the time and it matches my 6.5cm ballistics to 800. One of my favorite bolt gun calibers

I saw that from your barrel nut test good to see some hard data on alternate powders.

 

[padom]

Loading long changes the game.

2.26 is for ARs. I’m at 5x on Lapua brass with 24.6 Varget under a 75 ELD coal 2.490 @2900 FPS and my go/no go gage also won’t even go in the pocket. Seating primers feels plenty tight. Hoping for 15x from the brass.

My goal was 10x before I trash them but I will probably get more as tight as these pockets are. I'm also loading 2.49" COAL with 75 ELD which is .015" off lands

 

[supercorndogs]

I cannot speak to LC brass as I shot everything with Lapua...

But I use the Ballistic Tools Go and No Go pocket gauge....the GO is nice and tight, the no go will not even go in on these 7x 24.4gr brass... I've been shooting this load for quite a few years now and it's mild for me. Idk what else to say. Zero brass issues pockets are nice and tight

Small and Large Primer Pocket Swage Gage ® Set

Swage Gage Small Primer Pocket Gauge

ballistictools.com

There are constantly people with differing experience. I didn't say you were wrong. I didn't say your pockets were stretched. I said very plainly, "24g is tough on brass in my experience." Lapau brass is stronger than most other brands. Just because you aren't stretching pockets in Lapau doesn't mean you are under 65K PSI. I am guessing from what I have heard anyway. I am not the only one to stretch out some LC primer pockets trying to run 24.3 of Varget.

 

[padom]

There are constantly people with differing experience. I didn't say you were wrong. I didn't say your pockets were stretched. I said very plainly, "24g is tough on brass in my experience." Lapau brass is stronger than most other brands. Just because you aren't stretching pockets in Lapau doesn't mean you are under 65K PSI. I am guessing from what I have heard anyway. I am not the only one to stretch out some LC primer pockets trying to run 24.3 of Varget.

Easy there cowboy, you seem a little hurt. I'm posting information and I clearly said I can't speak to LC brass....I also never mentioned anything about staying under 65k PSI.. I'm posting factual info about 7 barrels and years of shooting the load and I know at least 10 others shooting the same load with the same results.... no need to get worked up

 

[Xcount]

There are constantly people with differing experience. I didn't say you were wrong. I didn't say your pockets were stretched. I said very plainly, "24g is tough on brass in my experience." Lapau brass is stronger than most other brands. Just because you aren't stretching pockets in Lapau doesn't mean you are under 65K PSI. I am guessing from what I have heard anyway. I am not the only one to stretch out some LC primer pockets trying to run 24.3 of Varget.

What c.o.a.l. are you running the 75g Amax at? 24g of Varget is not considered hot regardless of the brass.

 

[supercorndogs]

Loading long changes the game.

2.26 is for ARs. I’m at 5x on Lapua brass with 24.6 Varget under a 75 ELD coal 2.490 @2900 FPS and my go/no go gage also won’t even go in the pocket. Seating primers feels plenty tight. Hoping for 15x from the brass.




I saw that from your barrel nut test good to see some hard data on alternate powders.

2.5 was my OAL. Having a longer throat is what you mean. Not "loading long." You can't just "load long" and get more velocity with less pressure. Moving the lands out increases the space for combustion.

 

[Mudflap621]

How you guys getting so much length outs the aics mags. I just ordered a cpl accurate mags as I also have a chassis showing up SUPPOSEDLY today. The accurate mags show coal of 2.325 is there a special mag your using or modifying the accurate mag. Im sitting on a bunch of these 77smk anyways and as long as I’m doing everything right I’m not gonna be able to reach that OAL before jamming the bullet.

 

[padom]

How you guys getting so much length outs the aics mags. I just ordered a cpl accurate mags as I also have a chassis showing up SUPPOSEDLY today. The accurate mags show coal of 2.325 is there a special mag your using or modifying the accurate mag. Im sitting on a bunch of these 77smk anyways and as long as I’m doing everything right I’m not gonna be able to reach that OAL before jamming the bullet.

I run AICS 223 mags (they don't make them anymore ) and they load out to 2.56... you can buy AICS pattern 223 mags from MDT thst will let you load out to 2.55"

.223 MDT Polymer AICS Magazine

mdttac.com

 

[GMZ]

2.5 was my OAL. Having a longer throat is what you mean. Not "loading long." You can't just "load long" and get more velocity with less pressure. Moving the lands out increases the space for combustion.

Seating the bullet further out gives you more room for powder? You don’t say!

 

[supercorndogs]

What c.o.a.l. are you running the 75g Amax at? 24g of Varget is not considered hot regardless of the brass.

I recall a recent thread, with at least 2 more people saying they stretched out pockets shooting 24.3. I believe @spife7980 was one them.

As we are getting much deeper into this part of the conversation then we ever should have. We should remember our lot to lot changes in Varget. Now that I am thinking about it. I have to run 42.4 with the 175SMK with this batch also. 43.2 would leave ejector marks on some cases. I never saw them at 43.2 with my first 25lbs or so. I haven't shot this lot much because I started using RL15 when Varget was hard to find, and then started shooting the Gaymores 6 and 6.5 so H4350. I also changed most anything 223 to 8208.

24.3 was 3050fps in my 28" barrel.

 

[spife7980]

I was but that was in an ar that I used varget if that has any bearing.

How you guys getting so much length outs the aics mags. I just ordered a cpl accurate mags as I also have a chassis showing up SUPPOSEDLY today. The accurate mags show coal of 2.325 is there a special mag your using or modifying the accurate mag. Im sitting on a bunch of these 77smk anyways and as long as I’m doing everything right I’m not gonna be able to reach that OAL before jamming the bullet.

You sand or file away in the front pf the mag. If you take it apart you see that it actually ramps back and closes down a smidge from the internal size in the mag, you can just file that little top part off to make more space to feed out of with no downside for long bullets.

 

[padom]

I was but that was in an ar that I used varget if that has any bearing.





You sand or file away in the front pf the mag. If you take it apart you see that it actually ramps back and closes down a smidge from the internal size in the mag, you can just file that little top part off to make more space to feed out of with no downside for long bullets.

View attachment 7545775

Yep I would agree that's a hot AR load...

 

[supercorndogs]

Seating the bullet further out gives you more room for powder? You don’t say!

That is not what I said.

"Loading long" doesn't mean anything. Stick your 2.5 OAL load in standard 223 chamber. Did seating the bullet farther out give you more room for powder, and "change the game?" Or did choosing a chamber to run the bullet you want at the length you want?

 

[Mudflap621]

Ok so I went back seated these 20 thousandths off the lands and it put me at cbto of 1.820. Attached is the groups from today your input would be appreciated. Also attached is a pic of the brass and imo I don’t see any pressure signs but I’m new at this.

 

[Mudflap621]

 

[padom]

Looks good. Id work 23.8 - 24.4gr in 0.2gr increments... POI looks very consistent, nice and wide which is great.

In my .223 bolt guns I found tighter groups closer to the lands.. I load mine .005-.01 off... After you shoot 23.8-24.4 and find your load I would then load up 5rd each .005 off, .01 off, .015 off and .02 off.. I always find one of those that stands out from the rest and shrinks right up..

 

[Mudflap621]

Looks good. Id work 23.8 - 24.4gr in 0.2gr increments... POI looks very consistent, nice and wide which is great.

In my .223 bolt guns I found tighter groups closer to the lands.. I load mine .005-.01 off... After you shoot 23.8-24.4 and find your load I would then load up 5rd each .005 off, .01 off, .015 off and .02 off.. I always find one of those that stands out from the rest and shrinks right up..

Thanks Padom I will get to work!

 

[Mudflap621]

Today went out checked 23.8-24.6 every .2 grain while fighting a blizzard but was able to put together some ok groups. POI seems to be staying pretty stable I did see some primers starting to flatten more at 24.4 and 24.6 grain. I’m having a hard time trying to pinpoint a charge weight. My guts saying the 23.8-24.2 range.
On another note I had a hard time staying focused on target today in the snow is this common?

 

[padom]

POI looks very consistent. Nice wide node. I'd go with 24.2gr and now do a seating depth test.

 

[Mudflap621]

Went and did a seating test today and as Padom had said seems like it likes to be close. 5 shot groups and last shot was one I marked pull and wasn’t thrilled with my execution but i still counted it

 

[Rogerthatout]

I know I WAY behind here but adding data anyway.
Pretty psyched, got this Bartlein broken in w about 375 rounds and just finished load development. SAC reamed this chamber to give me a 30k jump at magazine length. All rounds were charged w 24.25g Varget and 75g ELDS. All 5 shot groups;,seating depth test from 30 to 70 of lands. Was hoping it shot well from 45 to 60 and it did great today. Not great speed, 2780