off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hyena74</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I'll have GAP put a TRG barreled action in an AICS and an AE action in a TRG stock and watch the black hole form. </div></div>

just keep working on tom manners to inlet a t2 or t4 for the trg</div></div>

Don't think we haven't had that conversation...more than once

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

To the OP...if money is no issue and you want the best then the AIAX would be it IMHO.

If money is a factor, then I'd scale back to the AI AE MKII and I honestly don't believe you will be giving up a lot of performance. I think you have to be pretty experienced or a frontline soldier/LEO type to notice the difference. Spend the savings on a great scope and bipod.

I looked at the TRG for a long time and while I couldn't fault it on performance, I just decided it looked damn ugly !!!

 

[hyena74]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To the OP...if money is no issue and you want the best then the AIAX would be it IMHO.

If money is a factor, then I'd scale back to the AI AE MKII and I honestly don't believe you will be giving up a lot of performance. I think you have to be pretty experienced or a frontline soldier/LEO type to notice the difference. Spend the savings on a great scope and bipod.

I looked at the TRG for a long time and while I couldn't fault it on performance, I just decided it looked damn ugly !!!
</div></div>
what!? and you think an AI looks good?

 

[TEAMSENDIT]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I looked at the TRG for a long time and while I couldn't fault it on performance, I just decided it looked damn ugly !!!
</div></div>

I have to say if this is really a concern then why even bother about performance and durability. if looks are a concern then i am guessing it isn't used all that hard. i am not military or le, but i compete and my rifles show use from matches/field practice. My trg would truly make you sick, here is a pic of it, mind you it now also has some duct tape & grip tape on it. Also the paint is krylon of course.

 

[Fromafar]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

There's a lot of talk about customs and how thoughtough chassis are. Unless you plan on patrolling with one don't worry about the durability so much. It sounds as though you plan to head to the range and pull it out of the case so two of the best "off the shelf" rifles are Ai and Trg. I believe the Trg is a bit more affordable and will be waiting for you to shoot as well as it does. I personally have a custom but looking to purchase another. When I do, it will probably be a Trg.

 

[z-man]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

No one had better call that TRG rig ugly. That is an awesome looking, great paint camo job and I like the tan cerakote? Nicely done. Z

 

[jbell]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

Damn I enjoyed reading this thread, and cant wate to go shoot my TRG tomorrow and think about how happy I am its not that uncomfortable 2x4x4 of a rifle called an AIAW.

Just kidding (kind of) they are both with out a doubt in a class of their own and we should all be happy we have such a fine selection of high end factory rifles to choose from.

P.S. TRG's rule!

 

[libertyman777]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

FN SPR A2. Mike at Tactical Coordination has a great deal going on a $2K+ rifle. He's bedding them and my first trip out, it was pushing half a minute.

They are extremely durable too.

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hyena74</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To the OP...if money is no issue and you want the best then the AIAX would be it IMHO.

If money is a factor, then I'd scale back to the AI AE MKII and I honestly don't believe you will be giving up a lot of performance. I think you have to be pretty experienced or a frontline soldier/LEO type to notice the difference. Spend the savings on a great scope and bipod.

I looked at the TRG for a long time and while I couldn't fault it on performance, I just decided it looked damn ugly !!!
</div></div>
what!? and you think an AI looks good? </div></div>

LMAO...it didn't take long to get a bite. Man you guys are sensitive.

 

[hyena74]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hyena74</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To the OP...if money is no issue and you want the best then the AIAX would be it IMHO.

If money is a factor, then I'd scale back to the AI AE MKII and I honestly don't believe you will be giving up a lot of performance. I think you have to be pretty experienced or a frontline soldier/LEO type to notice the difference. Spend the savings on a great scope and bipod.

I looked at the TRG for a long time and while I couldn't fault it on performance, I just decided it looked damn ugly !!!
</div></div>
what!? and you think an AI looks good? </div></div>

LMAO...it didn't take long to get a bite. Man you guys are sensitive. </div></div>
i bet you also like large women

most importantly, the trg has a polymer trigger so your finger doesnt freeze to it in polar weather.

 

[gugubica]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

Holy shit. How did this turn into a Mercedes vs. bMW debate?

Both are exelent rifles, period. (But, the TRG will cut your finger).

As to the poster who asked why the Rem is not as good...its just not. They can be plenty accurate, but there is more to a field or comp rifle than accurate. If you stay with this hobby long enough, you will give up on em. They simply don't hold up to abuse well. Every catastrophic failed I have personally seen at a match has bee a Remmy or a Savage. Rifles that are designed from the onset to be fielded as sniper rifles are simply more rugged under any circumstance...and the M24 and M40 were NOT designed as sniper rifles from the onset.

 

[z-man]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

I have a FN PBR XP with a Mcswirly A5 with a 24" fluted tube. Great gun and it shoots awesome, but I was trying to decide to upgrade it with a CDI mag system and some other stuff or go for the gold, AI or TRG. As eitehr is a huge step up. I decided in the end I wanted a 20" folder and like the looks and feel of the AI folder, wish I knew someone who had a TRG to fondle, or better yet wish I could get both but my girls college funds would not be happy.

Great thread. Z

 

[bm11]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

I don't find the TRG ugly at all. At worst, it's a 2 beer rifle. Now the AX on the other hand, boy, I think I'd need a 12 pack to fuck it.

 

[Tribe]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

Do your shooting buddies know about this....?

 

[steve123]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hyena74</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know there are a ton of great smiths out there that can build you what ever you want but, I was wondering what are my options for off the shelf rifles. I put together this list, is there any other guns that deserve a look?

Sako TRG-22
AI AW308
AI AX308
Dessert Tactical Arms SRS
Prarie Gun Works Coyote

I will look them over and try to find the best one for me as Iam sure they are all top shelf. Just curious if there are any others that I should be considering.

Thanks

Jason </div></div>

The guys at Surgeon have some rifles they can grab "off the shelf"

and ship ASAP if you're in a hurry and more than a few can be had next week in various configurations.I still keep coming back to the Surgeon 591 action.I just like them because the Picattiny 20 MOA rail is integral so that's one less thing you don't have to worry about coming loose.The extra metal stiffens the action as well.The recoil lug is also part of the action.They are very smooth and have that traditional bolt gun feel.

I'm pretty sure you'd be more than happy with any of the rifles on your list if they felt right to you.If you could get behind some of them it would help in the decision making process.How a rifle feels to you makes a huge difference sometimes.For instance,I've seen guys here on the Hide buy AIAW's that couldn't get used to how they feel and sell them a month later at a loss.

There are other things to consider.I'll mention some of my personal prefences.They may or may not apply to you.What I like doesn't matter to you but getting the rifle that suits your personal preferences does.

The last couple years weight has become more of an issue for me as I'm half a century old now.I don't want to shoot a 19lb rifle icluding scope offhand ever again,LOL or lug the damn thing around for that matter.So I chose a medium weight barrel instead of heavy and bought a lighter scope with alluminum/titanium rings also.I prefer 1.5 lb single stage triggers,fully adjustable stocks,longish barrels-26".Those are some of things to think about.You get the picture here.

I think you could add the Tubb 2000 to your list as well.

</div></div>
those surgeons sure are nice...but do you think they are built to "tight" for field use? </div></div>

Not very glorious but this is the only story I have to share from personal experience. When traveling between stages at the Utah shootoffs the next stage was quite a ways,maybe a mile of dirt road.On the way I noticed I had left the back window open on the Ford Explorer where my Surgeon XL was laying with action facing up.I thought there wouldn't be much dust getting in so instead of stopping and closing it I kept going till I got there.Bad decision,LOL,the back window must of caused a vortex of some kind.That Surgeon got totaly covered in a thick coat of gritty dust.I thought for sure the bolt would lock up but it was fine.I even showed a few of the guys how badly covered in dirt the rifle was.They were suprised themselves that everything was still working.

 

[steve123]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I think you could add the Tubb 2000 to your list as well.

</div></div>

Steve,
Let me tell you why your post is silly. First, your little wink doesn't mean that a Surgeon built rifle is "off the shelf". All you do is side track the original question into an entirely different topic the OP was not interested in. I can relate to your happiness with Surgeon but lets keep this on track.

Next, Surgeons are great and I've owned more than one however they are not dirty, field grade rifles and they do not have many of the features the others do.

Finally, the Tubb2000 is a joke for a field rifle. Talk about delicate, have you seen the bolt handle on that thing? I could yank it off after a strong cup of coffee let alone in the field. </div></div>

I know I swayed a little.Couldn't resist.

Part of the reason I mentioned Surgeon Rifles is their availability.Being able to order a custom grade rifle today if desired and getting it in a week vs commissioning a build and waiting who knows how long to get it.Just giving the OP another option.

You must of witnessed some failures with Surgeons in field conditions.Mind sharing what happened ?

There's a couple guys in the Phoenix area that use T2000's.Granted I don't shoot with those guys all the time but I haven't seen or heard of theirs going down.I did see the trigger failure on one of the Steel safari videos.Nothings perfect aye.I've read here on the Hide about TRG trigger failures also.

BTW,If I were to buy any off the shelf rifle considering my price range it would be one of those Euro Optics TRG 22's in 260.

 

[jayph]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

wow you go to work and you get three pages

I may have worded my first questions wrong as I wasn't asking which was better in my list, I was asking if there should be any other high end rifles added to my list.

I don't live in the states that is the reason for not wanting to deal with a custom rifles through a gunsmith (although you have many)

I apreciate all the comments about the TRG and The AI but I am planning on trying to get behind every rifle and get the one thats best for me. I will be going on a trip later this summer that will take me by dealers that stock all the rifles on my list. I will try them then. I just wanted to know if there is anything else I should try before I make a choice.

Money is not a problem to a point but Iam out to get the best rifle for me not just the most expensive. I have many guns including customs but this purchase will be the missing piece in a puzzle I have been waiting to finish for a long time.

Thanks

Jason

 

[Stubb]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hyena74</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
not to argue with you, but what do you feel is inferior on the 700 type actions? is it the longer bolt throw?

and the trigger? do you like the two stage, or is it that the remington trigger isnt as easily removed? </div></div>

Interesting reading on pros and cons of the 700 action: link.

—Andreas

 

[z-man]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

Andreas thanks for the great link. A lot of good info. Z

 

[mrjimsfc]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike,

I researched the subject heavily when I had my TRG, even bought a take off barrel to use, and the concensus was no- it's not just a matter of torquing the new barrel on like it is with an AI. You may get lucky and the two guns headspace exactly the same, but it may require smithing to headspace properly as well. I am no gunsmith and I don't recall the reasons why, but it had to do with where the TRG headspaced off from. So- you can certainly switch barrels at home if the other barrels were made for your gun, and you may even get lucky and purchase a barrel and have it headspace properly,<span style="font-weight: bold"> but it is not standardized like AI is and therefore can't be considered to have the same benefit</span> <span style="font-style: italic"> </span> . </div></div>
And there you've said it all! AI (by your estimation at least) is made to be "one size fits all" (ie. "standardized) where as TRG has gone through further customization to make the gun "one integral component". Does this make one perform beter than the other? I haven't observed any great advantage of one over the other on the range. Price? TRG wins the contest on that one. Interchagability? Well, AI for the reasons stated above. Which one will perform the best for the OP? He'll just have to make his own choice!
BTW Mike, are you Finnish, do you have Finnish ancestry or do you even speak Finnish? You seem to be adamant on the "unsurpassed quality" of Finnish firearms. Ollen samaa mieltä.

 

[Powermac]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

Since you're talking about high end off the shelf tactical rifles.
PGM is surely worth mentioning, they do not lack anything compared to a TRG or Ai.
Rarely mentioned on the hide though, but used by military forces around the world too.

Us Distributor.

http://www.drakeassociates.us/content/pgmweaponsystems

 

[SScott]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

To answer the OP, I chose TRG-22 and have never looked back. I have had Remington and custom clones but my TRG was the first rifle I have owned that I have been able to shoot a 5 shot bughole group @100 yards with. In .308 it had almost Zero POI shift from cold bore to 40 shots in 5 minutes, I now have it converted to 7mm 08 and don't have enough range time to say what the POI shift is, but is looking good . It looks like it is narrowed to two rifles, you really need to shoot them before you drop down your hard earned money.
Good luck, SScott

 

[z-man]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

Are the Drake PGMs the same as old FN Ultimate Ratio. I saw a few out there then they were gone?? Are they the same craxy high price as FN was selling them?? Z

 

[jabels]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

I think that (SIG)Sauer also makes some fine rifles worthy of mention. Take a look at the SSG3000 and see if it fits your criteria.

Justin

 

[1kHIT]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

Just out of curiosity, why didn't anyone address an earlier post about HS Precision? From their display at the SHOT shows, they seem like pretty good, 'off the shelf rifles'. Are they not?

 

[coloshooter7]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1kHIT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just out of curiosity, why didn't anyone address an earlier post about HS Precision? From their display at the SHOT shows, they seem like pretty good, 'off the shelf rifles'. Are they not? </div></div>


I have one I got a few years ago, it is an excellent rifle, shoots 1/4 MOA at 100 and has shot 1/2 MOA at 600 with factory match grade ammo, probably would do better if it wasn't for the shooter. It will reach out to 1500 yards. It all depends on your purpose and budget I guess.

 

[Whit]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

I love my TRG. I have had it for about 2 1/2 yrs. I have one in 300 WinMag and never had any problems. But I have not taken mine out and put it through alot of abuse either.

 

[hewlett260]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

I love my AW in 260 Rem. My average groups are under 1 inch @ 300 meters with Sierra 142's and 44 grains of H4831sc. My best so far is .415 in. @ 300. That was off the bench. Off my bipod average is around .7-.8 inch at the same range. My personal experience and my preference. The TRG doesn't fit me but is still a fine rifle.

 

[Alderleet]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

I love how everytime a "high end" rifle thread is posted, some remington fanboy has to post their basic 700 as high end.

It reminds me of when I played paintball competitively. Every nooblet would go out and buy a Smart Parts Ion, and tack a bunch of shit to it, to say it was "high end". Wrong! mother fucker... its not.

I'm beginning to realize the Remington 700 is the Smart Parts Ion, of the rifle world.

 

[Massoud]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

Regarding the AI in a TRG stock, we have done that (sort of). We put the Badger M2008 in our Whiskey-3. It's a joy to shoot I think (of course).

That's our article that Andreas linked to, we've had a long relationship with the 700, as have many others here.

The Sig SSG3k was mentioned. I think it is a dark horse. It has most of the makings of a high end rifle, 3 lug bolt, good trigger, you can swap barrels (they are pricey). In Europe they are super popular it sounds like but have a wooden stock. The stock ours have here is a travesty however. It fits me worse than an AI stock which is saying something. If only someone would make a decent stock for it...so if you have one that you want to part with for a couple months and get something in return, hit me up.
Justin

 

[fireguyty]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

I am surprised no one has really brought up DTA. Initially the ergonomics of the bullpup take some warming up to, but after that it feels like being behind an AR. The versatility of the different barrels is great and totally repeatable zero. Extremely accurate. Expensive yes, but when you bring optics into play it makes up for that. I have put about a thousand rounds through mine while laying in the dirt and in competitions with no problems. Admittedly, I have never snowshoed through the arctic with it, but who the hell is going to do that anyway? Also, everyone that shoots my rifle comments on how good the monopod is.

I have shot a TRG, and did think it was beyond quality, but I wouldn't trade mine for a pair of TRG's in 308, and 338. I can't bring AI into this, because I have never shot one.

This is just my opinion, I think that with the kind of money you are looking to spend you will be happy as can be.

 

[GorbashUK]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

Love how all the bullshit starts on these posts lol.
Gap rifles are what they are, a tricked up hunting action tuned to the users requirements. Never owned 1 but have owned tuned and trued Remmy 700's in various stock/trigger/bedding configurations and IMHO they are not in the same league as either the TRG 22 or the AI AW both of which I have owned and currently own.
Use a TRG all the time now,for plinking and competition Why? it has the best trigger available on any rifle for sale at the moment, its stock fits me perfectly and the accuracy with a varied selection of factory and reloaded ammo is incredible.
Everybody here has their opinions, most are valid, you have to shoot the rifles in question and then the choice will be obvious.

 

[bm11]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2708415&#Post2708415

Stirring shit up I know, but advantage AI?

 

[Tribe]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

^^^ man.... that makes me appreciate Stacey all the more!

 

[jbell]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2708415&#Post2708415

Stirring shit up I know, but advantage AI? </div></div>

This just goes to show you that nothing is infallible. But with as hard as you cycle the bolt I would watch it ... Im just saying.

 

[bm11]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

I think I win! http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2708715#Post2708715

 

[Massoud]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

I'm sure there's a good explanation. He must have got a good deal on 5 brand new ones.

And we'll work on the bolt stop thing...

Justin

 

[SScott]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Massoud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And we'll work on the bolt stop thing...

Justin </div></div>
Thanks Justin,
It looks like there is a real need for a TRG mechanic and aftermarket parts supplier in the States,(yes I'm sure some local smith could get the job done, but I want someone who is familiar with the platform to do the work).
SScott

 

[TorF]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Massoud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Regarding the AI in a TRG stock, we have done that (sort of). We put the Badger M2008 in our Whiskey-3. It's a joy to shoot I think (of course).

That's our article that Andreas linked to, we've had a long relationship with the 700, as have many others here.

The Sig SSG3k was mentioned. I think it is a dark horse. It has most of the makings of a high end rifle, 3 lug bolt, good trigger, you can swap barrels (they are pricey). In Europe they are super popular it sounds like but have a wooden stock. The stock ours have here is a travesty however. It fits me worse than an AI stock which is saying something. If only someone would make a decent stock for it...so if you have one that you want to part with for a couple months and get something in return, hit me up.
Justin </div></div>

The SSG3K is a better system than AI and TRG for the individual shooer if the level of competition is such that 10k+ rounds every year is required to keep up. In adition there is a 22lr kit for the SSG3K. Tke 22LR barrel can be shortnend so the total "locktime" in the SSG3K for centerfire and rimfire is identical. This is a huge advantage if offhand shooting is on the programme. The SSG3K has issues just like the AI and TRG.

In Scandinavia SSG3K dropin matchbarrels, delivered with factory test target, cost 2/3 of a replacement barrel fitted by a gunsmith in a TRG or other regular actions. Most top level shooters I know have at least 3 barrels at any time for their SSG3K.

A friend of mine compared the rifles this way: "If the AI, TRG and SSG3K were machineguns the AI and TRG are Browning M1919s and the SSG3K is a MG34/MG42"