PRS Talk Offhand stages

[RyanM]

Trying to get a general idea of the sizes of targets and distances involved in offhand (standing/kneeling/sitting) stages that have been seen in matches.

Thanks for any info.

 

[Rob01]

Most positional are anywhere from 2-4 MOA but they can be bigger or smaller if the MD wants to make it tough. I usually practice on a 2 MOA target.

 

[RyanM]

What would the hit % be on a 2MOA?

It seems like a lot of matches have the prone/modified prone stages pushing the 1.5/2 MOA range. I can imagine most shooters getting zeroes on a 8" plate at 200.

I will try that next time I am at the range though.

 

[noisewaterphd]

Any match I've been to that had offhand stages, or parts of stages offhand, had very, very low hit percentage. You don't see it a ton, and when you do see it everyone bitches. Nobody likes an offhand stage. Including me, because I suck at it . Plus it's just not fun for shooters, or very inventive on the part of the MD. PRS guys like to solve problems, offhand doesn't lend itself to very many solutions.

 

[noisewaterphd]

But to answer your actual question, the last offhand I remember was 300yds on probably a 3moa plate, the one before that I think was 400yds on a pretty dang big plate.

 

[RyanM]

Any match I've been to that had offhand stages, or parts of stages offhand, had very, very low hit percentage. You don't see it a ton, and when you do see it everyone bitches. Nobody likes an offhand stage. Including me, because I suck at it . Plus it's just not fun for shooters, or very inventive on the part of the MD. PRS guys like to solve problems, offhand doesn't lend itself to very many solutions.

Thanks for the feeback!

You are very much correct that they are not very fun.

I run some small club type matches in Canada with a couple of other guys (20-60 shooters, one day event type deals) and I am always looking for ways to screw with the competitors. I think the targets would have to be quite large (4MOA+) and it would have to be a low point stage (6 rounds) to avoid guys getting too annoyed at me. I might have to make it a sling prone stage or kneeling/sitting.

I find that when guys are .5MOA shooters on the internet they turn into 1.5MOA shooters pretty darn quick on match day and offhand I would think that if someone can hold 4MOA that is pretty darn good.

 

[Forward543]

The only one i shot was full ipsc at 350yards. We went offhand, kneeling, seated, prone. It thought it was a fun change up. No bags or bipods. Yeah it is annoying, but i think it should come up from time to time.
hit percentage was still sporadic with that big of a target.

 

[Sheldon N]

Last match was Full IPSC at 250-300ish standing, kneeling, seated. 3 shots each. Big target but only a 90 second stage. Average hit was probably 4-5 out of 9, some people got close to cleaning it. Standing was loose interpretation, just feet on the ground with no other clarification. Squatting (rice paddy prone) was permitted, as were those crazy yoga poses though I don't think anyone did that this match.

Another creative option I've seen is having 3 plates at around 200 yards, big, medium and little. For each position before you started you had to say which plate you were going for, then fire your 3 shots at it. No change in strategy once you made your call. Smaller plates were worth more points. You could shoot big for offhand, medium for kneeling, and small for seated, or whatever else you wanted depending on how confident/greedy you were. Good opportunity for strategy and to help separate the field.

 

[natdscott]

So why do guys hate the Offhand stages so much?

Is it a time issue, or?

2 MOA, in and of itself, is not terrible. It's not easy, but it's not the hardest either.

Add some time, some running, some..? and I could see it being pretty nasty.


But educate me, because I don't play that game.

 

[morganlamprecht]

So why do guys hate the Offhand stages so much?

Is it a time issue, or?

2 MOA, in and of itself, is not terrible. It's not easy, but it's not the hardest either.

Add some time, some running, some..? and I could see it being pretty nasty.


But educate me, because I don't play that game.

i dont really care for offhand stages because IMO (and most others ive heard from who dont like it) that isnt what these rifles were built to do...the last 2 offhand stages ive had to shoot in matches were at 250-300 yds on either a 66 or full size ipsc, cant remember the target size exactly...one of the stages was 10 rounds weak side in 60 seconds, the other was 10 rounds strong side in 60...i hit 10/10 weak, and 9/10 strong...its not a matter of not being able to do it...i just kind of see it as a waste of ammo i took time to reload

my other issue with it, is most of the time MDs want to dictate position...i never like that...whats the difference in shooting seated with just me and my rifle, if i can find a better position than traditional seated? its still just me holding my rifle...same with kneeling or standing...there are 3 or 4 ways i would shoot from seating and kneeling before ever using the traditional setup if i had a choice, because they work better...and being 6'5 240 lbs, what works for most average size people...aint a good fit for me, and vice versa, i can do things others cant because of my length

 

[sinister]

Nobody likes to train at what they suck at -- especially gamers whose play performance has nothing to do with whether a professional may ever face that kind of scenario at work. So they insist they NOT be in their games.

Like shooting a pistol weak-handed.

NRA off-hand matches generally use the Short Range target with a 1.5 MOA X-ring, and 3.5 MOA 10 ring (at 200 yards). An expert score is 89.0 to 93.9% hits ratio in the X-10 ring -- with either irons or a scope.

 

[natdscott]

Thanks guys! I'm just trying to start understanding PRS-style shooting. I'm not ready to start yet, but I'm gathering my marbles, so to speak . NRA is wearing on me some, for the drama if nothing else.

You may start seeing more of me around these parts.

Nobody likes to train at what they suck at... So they insist they NOT be in their games.

NRA off-hand matches generally use the Short Range target with a 1.5 MOA X-ring, and 3.5 MOA 10 ring (at 200 yards). An expert score is 89.0 to 93.9% hits ratio in the X-10 ring -- with either irons or a scope.

Understand. I am of the opinion that being bad at it means you need it, and should work to get better instead of filing protests about the COF...but I'm only one man.

NRA-ers either like/love the SR target at 8am, or (they) hate it. I try to win my matches right then-and-there, and just kinda have to hold up the lead the rest of the day, rather than shooting 85% and trying to shoot 99% the rest of the COF. I'm just not usually a 99% shooter at 600, where I have to compete with guys that are.

My offhand personal average is about 96.5-97%, and I feel good about that, but anytime I want to feel small, I just go to a Silhouette match.

I will say though, under the understanding that I am far from the best, if you can shoot 2-3 MOA all the time in Offhand, a lot of other shooting problems become a lot less problematic.

But yeah, stress, heat, and exertion can take a 1 MOA hold and turn it into a 4 MOA hold in a damn hurry, and rifle balance is a lot more important that the overall weight. My SR is right at 17 lbs, but it doesn't hang most of that weight out in the breeze 30" from my hand either.

I would strongly guess though that guys just haven't had adequate training, and/or don't practice enough, for OH stages. It does make some srategic sense to practice elsewhere...until there's a match with OH in the COF.

-Nate

 

[morganlamprecht]

Thanks guys! I'm just trying to start understanding PRS-style shooting. I'm not ready to start yet, but I'm gathering my marbles, so to speak . NRA is wearing on me some, for the drama if nothing else.

You may start seeing more of me around these parts.



Understand. I am of the opinion that being bad at it means you need it, and should work to get better instead of filing protests about the COF...but I'm only one man.

NRA-ers either like/love the SR target at 8am, or (they) hate it. I try to win my matches right then-and-there, and just kinda have to hold up the lead the rest of the day, rather than shooting 85% and trying to shoot 99% the rest of the COF. I'm just not usually a 99% shooter at 600, where I have to compete with guys that are.

My offhand personal average is about 96.5-97%, and I feel good about that, but anytime I want to feel small, I just go to a Silhouette match.

I will say though, under the understanding that I am far from the best, if you can shoot 2-3 MOA all the time in Offhand, a lot of other shooting problems become a lot less problematic.

But yeah, stress, heat, and exertion can take a 1 MOA hold and turn it into a 4 MOA hold in a damn hurry, and rifle balance is a lot more important that the overall weight. My SR is right at 17 lbs, but it doesn't hang most of that weight out in the breeze 30" from my hand either.

I would strongly guess though that guys just haven't had adequate training, and/or don't practice enough, for OH stages. It does make some srategic sense to practice elsewhere...until there's a match with OH in the COF.

-Nate

most guys i know dont practice offhand at all...i dont, other than just messing around every now and then, but not any form of actually practicing...for me, im decent enough offhand to hit average or slightly better than the fields average most of the time so i just shoot it, move on and worry about points for the rest of the stages...until there starts to be multiple offhand stages in matches, im betting most shooters wont be too worried about it...ive yet to be out hunting or in some scenario where an offhand standing or seated shot was the best thing i could come up with in a hurry

side note: at the 2016 Brawl, they had a seated stage...was 60 seconds for 10 rounds, except for instead of starting seated, it started port arms...it was a 10" target at like 500-550 yds, it was on top of a conex box with zero wind block and it was windy...if you didnt drop down into a really close NPA, you were in trouble cause there was no time to fiddle around...i zero'd it, and still won the match...the average score for the stage was probably like a 1-2 from talking to the ROs on that stage lol

 

[lash]

At our matches, maybe 40-50% of the time there will be an offhand positional stage. Usually it involves 2-4 MOA targets at 200-328 yards and will often have an option for a smaller target choice for more points. Whether you like it or hate it, I believe that it's still a skill set that you should be able to perform, even if at a small hit ratio.

 

[natdscott]

...ive yet to be out hunting or in some scenario where an offhand standing or seated shot was the best thing i could come up with in a hurry

Ooh. I don't concur on that one, at least not around here. There are a many times where prone or even kneeling just won't work to get a bullet in between/around things.

I never take an Offhand shot where something else will work (because animals are not a science experiment), but I won't shy away from one if it's what is needed and I am confident I can place it.

-Nate

 

[morganlamprecht]

Ooh. I don't concur on that one, at least not around here. There are a many times where prone or even kneeling just won't work to get a bullet in between/around things.

I never take an Offhand shot where something else will work (because animals are not a science experiment), but I won't shy away from one if it's what is needed and I am confident I can place it.

-Nate

thats what i carry my tripod for but really, in south tx, there is so much brush and small trees, theres always something to shoot off of near by, just depends on your area i guess

 

[natdscott]

I hunt a lot of mixed timber and cropland, so improvising with the use of trees, brush bases, etc. is the norm and is FAR preferred. The problem is that sometimes all that same stuff is in the way. In rolling corn, for example, sitting or kneeling is about as good as it gets sometimes, just because of the 12-18" stubble.

I was down in N. Central TX...more-or-less Abilene...last summer doing some shooting. Nice part of the world. Lots of things that seem to need shot.

 

[RyanM]

Kind of forgot about this thread, I am actually probably moving away from a stage that would have a pure standing position. As Morgan said that isn't really what these rifles are for and a stage where the average is 20% or less is a waste of time. People like to come to competitions to bang steel and at least get a few hits.

A sitting/kneeling stage could be fun though and the target would have to be generous.

With the proliferation of tripods and other shooting aids a standing position is probably not a very common shot anymore.

 

[morganlamprecht]

the prs barricade stage builds on barricade skill from kneeling to standing (btw they have been running 3 height barricades at Rifle's Only since before the PRS skills stages became a thing...its not something new)
the speed stage builds on acquiring multiple target and engaging them across a wide span of area, very handy for troop lines
the mag change and support side stuff is just that...working mag changes and shooting support side

and whoever youre talking to sound like an idiots...NPoA, sight picture, breathing, trigger control and follow thru...just about any good prs shooter will know those, the problem is when you have a short amount of time and a lot of shots to get done from non standard positions, sometimes there may have to be compromises...i ALWAYS tell guys to come to match, because thats where they see the things they never had a clue about...i hear that from almost every new shooter..."man, the matches have really helped my hunting this year, im so much more comfortable building and shooting from positions i would have never even thought to take a shot from in the past", happens all the time

IMO the prs doesnt have a strict set of standard positions and THATS what makes it what it is...its about engaging a target, from any distance, from any position, the most successful way you can think of...and from what ive seen in my experience, if you take a handful of PRS guys, and a handful of guys from other LR disciplines and throw them in a field with the one goal being, hit the targets in front of them...the PRS guys are going to hit more targets unless you throw in restrictions to favor the other styles

 

[Rob01]

Exactly. I wouldn't want a bunch of set standards or positions etc. Yes that takes skills like highpower but to me it's boring. I want to have different stages thrown at me where I have to use my mind and gear to figure the best way to shoot it and make hits. All the shooting fundamentals are still there but no standard positions or stages. I don't even like getting stages before the match. Give me a stage brief and 5 min to figure it out and lets roll. I have shot some crazy stages over the past 15 years in this sport and like it. If you feel you need structure then go shoot highpower or F Class.

 

[Rob01]

It's not about a NEED for standardization. It's about recognizing the core fundamentals despite how asymmetric it looks. If you don't see those you're making my point.

See you have some need to cookie cut shooting into some core fundamentals. I am not talking about the skills of shooting as in sight picture, breathing, NPOA etc but actual positions etc. There is no need. The fluidity and ability to think on your own and shoot a stage is what it's about. I have shot out of helocopters, shot off a toilet, shot off of rocky hillsides, and a ton of other ways including that ladder. There doesn't need to be a standard and making one will actually make the sport less fun. Rememebr there were many years of shooting this sport before the "PRS" came about a short 6 years ago. Being able to be versatile and being able to troubleshootis a huge part of the sport. Take it out and you lose the sports heart.

And saying most PRS shooters don;t know the fundamentals of shooting is pretty insulting. Making a huge, and wrong, assumption there. As to folks bitching that shows more about the shooters coming in than the sport. There have been changes and not all have been good.

 

[Rob01]

PRS grew up in a vacuum and the folks in it insist that their sport is just so different, an untameable stallion! Can't be standardized and that's what makes it awesome! Perfect example: a wind formula existed for ...50 - 60 yrs(?) But how many PRS competitors use one? No, they get their 10mph(full value) wind for their cartridge at the distances in the stage they are about to shoot and pro-rate it based on the estimated speed. Why? Why not just use the existing industry standard? Because so many guys learned to shoot long range and in PRS on their own without formal instruction. They just didn't know what the industry standard was. They had to make their own. Like I said, PRS grew up in a vacuum. It's actually amazing the skill and capbilities that have developed in that vacuum. You are correct in that PRS is king for improvisation and shooting the mostest off of the worstest positions. I don't agree with you that it's the fastest or the most. It's just the fastest and the most at those ranges from those positions.

I don't think the folks I'm talking to are idiots and I bet you know a bunch of them. I just think they grew up in PRS and all have the same perspective. -> Why would I learn to shoot standing off hand? I'm not going to see it in the next match?

Why would you take a long time to do a 60 year old wind formula when you don;t need to and it will be no more accurate than taking the 10mpoh wind and using it to fit the stage? You don;t have time to be doing formulas. That's the bottom line. You might not even be shooting in the same wind from one target to the other as you might be shooting 90 degrees to the last target. You going to stop and do a formula? You can but plan on coming in dead last. A hit is a hit no matter if a formula was used or you found a way to take a fixed wind value and adjust it.

And you practice it because you MIGHT see it in a match. If you don;t like PRS don't shoot it but don;t try to change it to what you want and ruin it for others who like it just as it is. I don;t like everything about it now but I like the heart and soul of it being having to think and shoot from varied positions. It's a challenge.

 

[DrainTheSwamp]

Every match I’ve been to had an off hand stage but most the targets were like billboards. One variation had sitting standing kneeling prone, only one bag (whatever size you wanted) was allowed and no bipod. As a new shooter I like being challenged and am only there to have fun so I would never bitch about a MD’s stage setup decisions

 

[morganlamprecht]

Reub where are you shooting and who are you talkin to...name em and ill tell em next time i see em they are talking outta their ass, idgaf

and running a basic 10mph wind? thats funny, cause at the finale everyone withing viewing distance of me was taking wind readings, looking at down range mirage, vegetation, dust, and making wind brackets based on their observations...

and we also have "range days" in our area where experienced shooters get together with new shooters and train them up on various techniques...its rarely a "do it like this because fundamentals...", its more of a "you can try it like this, like that, or like so...see which one feels best, which is fastest, and be able to use whichever technique is needed"...sounds like you want a cookie cutter with someone holding your hand

 

[Rob01]

R

and running a basic 10mph wind? thats funny, cause at the finale everyone withing viewing distance of me was taking wind readings, looking at down range mirage, vegetation, dust, and making wind brackets based on their observations...

I think he meant just running a 10mph number and working off it. You always have to do as you mentioned but he wants you to take that data and then use a formula to get the wind call which isn't really feasible sometimes under time constraints and multiple targets.

 

[morganlamprecht]

I think he meant just running a 10mph number and working off it. You always have to do as you mentioned but he wants you to take that data and then use a formula to get the wind call which isn't really feasible sometimes under time constraints and multiple targets.

ah yea, that definitely wouldnt hold up

 

[natdscott]

Rob, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you shoot some Service Rifle Highpower for a little bit, outside and above the Corp?

 

[natdscott]

Guys. Let's not make this too personal. It's just a factual discussion about the need, or lack thereof, of learning to shoot Offhand well.

I feel that an accomplished rifle shooter should be able to shoot a group the size of their fist at 100 yards. I feel that I should be able to stand at 1,000 yards and put a shot in the black (and I can). I feel that Silhouette shooters are some of the best of any type in the world, and I wish like hell I could shoot more than 28 of those little fuckers. I feel that I am about 1/2 of the way to my potential in Offhand, despite being one of the best in a State or two. I feel that one of the reasons I can make shots in the field that others cannot is because my hold radius in Offhand is under 2 MOA, so other problems are easier to solve. I feel that if you can stand on a 10m Air rifle target and consistently shoot 10s, nobody in the world can give you shit about how well you can shoot unless they want to be embarrassed, because way less than 1 person in 100,000 you'd come across in daily life can do that.

But all of that is just my opinion, and my opinion is biased irrevocably by how I was raised and the conditions of the sports I have played.

I have the greatest respect for those embroiled in an argument up to their eyeballs who can still stand back and view their own biases objectively.

-Nate

 

[morganlamprecht]

dang, you lost me in using the school system comparison lol want to talk about the biggest waste of personal time ive ever been a part of...lets all move at the pace of the slowest runners in the race...

 

[morganlamprecht]

Guys. Let's not make this too personal. It's just a factual discussion about the need, or lack thereof, of learning to shoot Offhand well.

I feel that an accomplished rifle shooter should be able to shoot a group the size of their fist at 100 yards. I feel that I should be able to stand at 1,000 yards and put a shot in the black (and I can). I feel that Silhouette shooters are some of the best of any type in the world, and I wish like hell I could shoot more than 28 of those little fuckers. I feel that I am about 1/2 of the way to my potential in Offhand, despite being one of the best in a State or two. I feel that one of the reasons I can make shots in the field that others cannot is because my hold radius in Offhand is under 2 MOA, so other problems are easier to solve. I feel that if you can stand on a 10m Air rifle target and consistently shoot 10s, nobody in the world can give you shit about how well you can shoot unless they want to be embarrassed, because way less than 1 person in 100,000 you'd come across in daily life can do that.

But all of that is just my opinion, and my opinion is biased irrevocably by how I was raised and the conditions of the sports I have played.

I have the greatest respect for those embroiled in an argument up to their eyeballs who can still stand back and view their own biases objectively.

-Nate

serious question, under 2moa, offhand with a bolt gun, shooting at a pace of 60-90 seconds per 10 rounds (match stage conditions)...because if you can really do that, im impressed af lol

 

[RyanM]

serious question, under 2moa, offhand with a bolt gun, shooting at a pace of 60-90 seconds per 10 rounds (match stage conditions)...because if you can really do that, im impressed af lol

If that was possible he would be cleaning up on the PRS circuit considering most barricade stages at 2+MOA targets and less than 1,000Y...

I also agree with @Rob01 , if anyone thinks that you can ignore the fundamentals of shooting when doing PRS they are greatly misinformed. For sure I have done some non-ideal things on certain stages but that is the way its goes.

 

[morganlamprecht]

No. XC standing off hand is slow aim fire. 200yd.

Are you not impressed then? Dude, open up your mind and stop trying to compete PRS with everything. Just learn from other cultures to make yourself a better shooter.

THIS IS ABOUT PRS, in a PRS forum....and this is my problem

when i started shooting, i could have went and shot f class (i do complete in certain belly matches, but not f class), i could have went to 3gun (done this also), i could have gone to High power...but i choose PRS because of what it was

why does everyone seem set of joining something and then changing it to their background...i dont go to f class and start telling them we should shoot off barricades...i dont go to 3gun and tell them we should start shooting from 800-1500 yds...i dont go to USPSA and say we should all start only shooting steel...

my mind isnt closed...THEY ARE DIFFERENT DISCIPLINES...with a different purpose...thats why the other disciplines have different rules...

 

[lte82]

But I believe to build the skills as a Rifleman there are universal fundamentals that High-power, Service rifle, hunters, snipers, or anyone shooting a rifle should learn and progress through. And all those folks should understand what those fundamentals are. They are a universal language. A lot in PRS seems like a bunch of guys made it up while shooting Mossbergs in a cornfield. I don't even understand what the point of some of the skills stages are? What skills they are trying to exploit with the mag change, moving position, target sequence stage?

Does highpower test your ability build solid positions outside of a sling and shooting jacket, IE pretty much any shooting you do outside of highpower? How about learning how to build a ballistic table or tune your app / kestrel / etc to match your gun & ammo so you can hit targets from ANY distance, not just fixed 200/300/600. Does highpower test your ability to find targets and adjust NPA shot to shot under a time crunch, or do you get 3 minutes of prep to line up to just one target, dry fire, and get completely dialed in to hit one thing at one distance and one heading. Does highpower test your ability to effectively manage recoil and spot your own shots for adjustment, or do you have someone down range to tell you where you shot? I could go on.

Don't get me wrong, there's a ton to learn from highpower, but there are PLENTY of skills to learn from shooting PRS matches that you just don't get in highpower.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Does highpower test your ability build solid positions outside of a sling and shooting jacket, IE pretty much any shooting you do outside of highpower? How about learning how to build a ballistic table or tune your app / kestrel / etc to match your gun & ammo so you can hit targets from ANY distance, not just fixed 200/300/600. Does highpower test your ability to find targets and adjust NPA shot to shot under a time crunch, or do you get 3 minutes of prep to line up to just one target, dry fire, and get completely dialed in to hit one thing at one distance and one heading. Does highpower test your ability to effectively manage recoil and spot your own shots for adjustment, or do you have someone down range to tell you where you shot? I could go on.

Don't get me wrong, there's a ton to learn from highpower, but there are PLENTY of skills to learn from shooting PRS matches that you just don't get in highpower.

this sounds spot on...and something i couldnt say myself, because i dont shoot highpower...thats why i dont go talk about what high power shooters should be doing...sounds like ite does both, and he recognizes the different skills needed between them

 

[lte82]

this sounds spot on...and something i couldnt say myself, because i dont shoot highpower...thats why i dont go talk about what high power shooters should be doing...sounds like ite does both, and he recognizes the different skills needed between them

When I went to my first club match at CCC (never shot prs before) I had just come off of winning an arm full of national trophies and setting a couple of national records, so I fully expected to come in top 5 or maybe win it because I'm just that good right? I got my teeth kicked in, bad. I think a lot of highpower guys think the same way I did then, but it's not reality. I'm still haven't won anything, but my overall rifle skills are a shi* ton better than they were last year. One day maybe...

 

[lte82]

Your asking, " Does highpower test your ability build solid positions... ? How about learning....?. Does highpower test your ability .?..." , etc.

No, it doesn't. And so what's your point? HP is inferior and there's nothing to learn there? Bc PRS is more challenging and HP shooters can't do what we do? Our sport is is better and I have nothing to learn from others? As if pointing out the differences between the two is justification for a "superiority and inferiority" way of looking at this whole discussion.
!

No, it's a response to "I don't understand what the point of some of the skills stages are". Those are some of the skills you gain by shooting PRS that you don't get in highpower. One is not superior, it's apples and oranges. If you want to learn how to shoot offhand and build positions in a sling, shoot high power. If you want to be able to effectively hit targets at any distance from any supported position, shoot PRS. Two different games, two different skill sets, but the same fundamentals apply.

 

[Sheldon N]

I freaking hate standing offhand. We build these rifles to be super heavy low recoiling barricade positional shooting guns. 26" MTU or Heavy Varmint barrels, with as big of a brake as you can hang off the end. I know guys running 4 port Sidewinder or Fat Bastard brakes on their Dashers, lol. Plus now you can even buy steel weights for your MPA chassis to make it even heavier.

Last damn thing I want to do is hold that rifle standing offhand.

I still practice it because some match director sometime is going to make us shoot it. Still hate it, still think it's dumb.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Here's why we are arguing.

You are convinced this is an argument PRS versus "other disciplines". Which is better?!!

It's not.

Your asking, " Does highpower test your ability build solid positions... ? How about learning....?. Does highpower test your ability .?..." , etc.

No, it doesn't. And so what's your point? HP is inferior and there's nothing to learn there? Bc PRS is more challenging and HP shooters can't do what we do? Our sport is is better and I have nothing to learn from others? As if pointing out the differences between the two is justification for a "superiority and inferiority" way of looking at this whole discussion.

Are you seriously arguing against learning and using Marksmanship fundamentals?!!!! Has it become that convoluted?!! LOL!

Morgan, I'm not telling you to do anything. I'm not saying you have to change a GD thing. But the question is asked and then answered in not so many words, "Is there any value in learning to shoot standing off hand (and associated classic pos)?" Answered: "No , bc I don't see them at matches" I disagree because there is a intrinsic interchangeablility between trigger control during standing off hand in your wobble zone and trigger control during your wobble zone in many of the unsteady (apparently undefinable) positions found during the conduct of PRS'ing. By way of the universality of Fundamentals. It's not always just about the next thing you see at matches. I offer this differing perspective as I come from a different background than you. And I voice my frustration at at PRS Shooters narrow, short-sighted perspective.

What a foolish thing to do in a PRS thread bc what is the response? "Does standing off hand teach you how to mil targets?!!" LOL! No GD, it doesn't! LOL! F'n hilarious!

no, you are confused...its not about which is better, its about what each actually is, theyre DIFFERENT...idk how to put this in any more of a simple form...i dont have to learn what high power shooters do, because i dont shoot high power...i dont need to be able to shoot sub 2 moa from standing, slow fire, because its not something i care to do...what part of i have no interest it in dont you get? and im probably speaking for most of "whoever" youre talking too, as well...its the same reason i dont shoot f class, because FOR ME, laying on my stomach shooting paper at 1 distance is boring AF...so does that mean im against prone shooting too now?

if you go back and read my first response, i dont have a problem with the offhand stages in matches...going 10/10 support side seated practically handed me a $5k check at the Hide Cup...i STILL dont think thats what my rifle was put together to do...and most others feel the same way, deal with it

 

[RyanM]

Here is some background. I wish I could say I am an awesome PRS shooter but I actually spend more time running matches and planning them than shooting them.

I asked this question as a way to find out what people are seeing and I did get that answer but I also got otherinfo that was helpful to me.

All shooting matches should be about having fun. As much as many guys like to play super sniper, PRS matches are a type of competition, some skills may be transferable but we have to remember that this is not real life.

If I hold a match that has people come out and then the scores turn out to average around 20% I just held a crappy match. For sure, maybe some guy came out and shot 100% but if most guys shot zeroes it doesnt matter. The first match I ran was all about 3 distances, 4 obstacles, support side, 10 round, 90 second gymnastic fests. Scores were low, I think guys still had fun but it could have been better. Next match, I bumped up the target sizes and simplified things and guys had a lot better of a time (I think).

If guys don't want to shoot offhand or no one practices it there is not too much of a point in dedicating a stage to it. Does this mean we are possibly lacking a skill, for sure, but does that really matter? Are we going to ask an F-classer to shoot off barricades, or a Trap shooter to do some run and gunning?

I still may throw in some field shooting but it will be a very small percentage of the total score.

 

[morganlamprecht]

No, it's a response to "I don't understand what the point of some of the skills stages are". Those are some of the skills you gain by shooting PRS that you don't get in highpower. One is not superior, it's apples and oranges. If you want to learn how to shoot offhand and build positions in a sling, shoot high power. If you want to be able to effectively hit targets at any distance from any supported position, shoot PRS. Two different games, two different skill sets, but the same fundamentals apply.

im glad ite actually gets it...

 

[morganlamprecht]

Here is some background. I wish I could say I am an awesome PRS shooter but I actually spend more time running matches and planning them than shooting them.

I asked this question as a way to find out what people are seeing and I did get that answer but I also got otherinfo that was helpful to me.

All shooting matches should be about having fun. As much as many guys like to play super sniper, PRS matches are a type of competition, some skills may be transferable but we have to remember that this is not real life.

If I hold a match that has people come out and then the scores turn out to average around 20% I just held a crappy match. For sure, maybe some guy came out and shot 100% but if most guys shot zeroes it doesnt matter. The first match I ran was all about 3 distances, 4 obstacles, support side, 10 round, 90 second gymnastic fests. Scores were low, I think guys still had fun but it could have been better. Next match, I bumped up the target sizes and simplified things and guys had a lot better of a time (I think).

If guys don't want to shoot offhand or no one practices it there is not too much of a point in dedicating a stage to it. Does this mean we are possibly lacking a skill, for sure, but does that really matter? Are we going to ask an F-classer to shoot off barricades, or a Trap shooter to do some run and gunning?

I still may throw in some field shooting but it will be a very small percentage of the total score.

this is a good MD mentality...its how matches grow and become successful, and the past couple years have proven that when looking at certain venues

 

[morganlamprecht]

Oh, well that makes more sense. Oddly delivered though. The statement, "I don't understand what the skills are..." Is more of a baiting question. Of course, I understand in a stage where you break position and change mags that the point is to break position and change mags. What I am baiting is that nothing is defined in PRS , (exhaustively discussed above) so why have standardized "skills" stages? And if you do want to establish a baseline for proficiency at what you consider being core skills, then mag changes? In a PR sport? Really? Just doesn't seem to well thought out. And that supports my point. PRS's aversion to building a doctrinal infrastructure, I'm guessing to the nature of how it came about. IPSC has qualifier stages in every match. After a so many matches your scores for those stages are tallied and you get classified based on your performance. Seems well thought out, right?

How much do we use our Skills stages? Are they put to any greater use than an occasional use just like any other de facto common stage? Not really. It's wierd that we have them and what specific skills we decided to build them with. There are certainly other and arguably more important skills a PRS shooter needs to be competitive.

the prs skills stages were developed as simple stages that could be set up at almost any match/range without much disruption to the range layout and serve as a tie breaker for the match...there was grumble and push back from telling MDs how to run those few stages already...i doubt starting to dictate qualifier stages would have went over well with telling them how to set up and readjust their range to suit some generic stage designs

 

[RyanM]

Oh, well that makes more sense. Oddly delivered though. The statement, "I don't understand what the skills are..." Is more of a baiting question. Of course, I understand in a stage where you break position and change mags that the point is to break position and change mags. What I am baiting is that nothing is defined in PRS , (exhaustively discussed above) so why have standardized "skills" stages? And if you do want to establish a baseline for proficiency at what you consider being core skills, then mag changes? In a PR sport? Really? Just doesn't seem to well thought out. And that supports my point. PRS's aversion to building a doctrinal infrastructure, I'm guessing to the nature of how it came about. IPSC has qualifier stages in every match. After a so many matches your scores for those stages are tallied and you get classified based on your performance. Seems well thought out, right?

How much do we use our Skills stages? Are they put to any greater use than an occasional use just like any other de facto common stage? Not really. It's wierd that we have them and what specific skills we decided to build them with. There are certainly other and arguably more important skills a PRS shooter needs to be competitive.

I actually will disagree with you about the skills stage thing (I am going off the old one so maybe they have changed but you have the barricade, the no dial, the lateral target one, and then the other one). I run at least one skills stage or modified version at each of my matches and would state their value as follows:

Barricade stage: A barricade is a barricade is a barricade. If you can shoot off the PRS barricade (or the 3 step version at RO) you can pretty much shoot off of any other obstacle. The principle is the same whether it be a 2x4, vtac, rock, tree stump, or cinder block. Get up there, build a stable position and get the shot off.

No dialing: This one is pretty simple, know your reticle and how to use it. Also, it includes recoil control, wind reading, follow through, etc. All pretty fundamental skills. Being able to use your reticle rather than dialing will save you huge time on other stages.

Lateral target stage: A lot of the same skills as the no dialing stage but I think this will also bring in NPOA. If you are just moving the gun and not adjusting your body a little bit your gun will be jumping around on you. With brakes and light recoiling rounds you dont have to be perfect but you have to be in the ball park.

When I go out to practice I bring my three step barricade (which is really a 6 when I knock it over) and shoot off that for the majority of my practice. I am no all star like Matt B. or Jake V. but do OK. I think that is because the barricade is a foundation type of exercise and I drill it.

Edited: I forgot the other stage but it is pretty much a combo of the other ones if I remember correctly.

Also all of the above is just my opinion and have no idea what the intent was when the skills stages were designed.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Reub, what would be your idea of an ideal PRS skills stage? instead of complaining, what about some solutions or changes?

 

[RyanM]

Is your background military or police (or some subset of)?

Also, just because you are having fun doesn't mean you can't develop your skills. Not everything in life is mutually exclusive.

I design stages to be challenging but achievable. If a top PRS shooter (heck any decent US shooter probably) came up to my little matches they would destroy everyone on the line. I bet he would still learn something and have some fun. I think the last place shooter would as well.

 

[morganlamprecht]

in our TX club matches, the winner is usually around 90% if he had a GREAT day, 80-85% is more average...i agree that matches where 80% of the shooters scoring 80-90% is a cupcake match...with the caliber of shooters at most of the TX club matches if 80% of the field was scoring 80-90%, there would likely be 3-5 guys shooting 100%, and we've never had a shooter win with 100% that im aware of

 

[natdscott]

serious question, under 2moa, offhand with a bolt gun, shooting at a pace of 60-90 seconds per 10 rounds (match stage conditions)...because if you can really do that, im impressed af lol

If that was possible he would be cleaning up on the PRS circuit considering most barricade stages at 2+MOA targets and less than 1,000Y...

I can't tell if you're being egotistical or not, so I'll assume not. The internet is not a wonderful means of communicating tone.

As a means of explanation, I will tell you that I do not shoot PRS. The point of my post wasn't so much to pontificate on WHAT offhand should be or shouldn't be, it was to point out that this is just an academic discussion, and doesn't need to devolve into personal shit flinging. I could have made up any of those opinions, but the bold italic lines that I wanted you to read would still be the same.

But since I did not make any of it up...

I've been shooting things 3+ days out of 7 for over 80% of my life. Background was/is 25+ years of field shooting and killing about everything that could be killed legally, and probably a thing or two that couldn't. The improvised field shooting at distances from 1 through X yards (because you get no choice) served me very well in Highpower and in every other discipline I've tried. And I will try ANY shooting sport. I see no reason to back down from any shooting challenge that I think is safe to undertake. Thus, shooting 1,000 yard Offhand. (Agne, if you're watching this...I'm comin' for you! 8's or better!)

I think I've shot at least one match or shoot in at least 5 entirely separate shooting disciplines. Do you know what I found?

Not a damn one was easy. If a guy is introduced to me as a Grand Master in some pistol discipline I know nothing about, I have immediate and total respect for his efforts and expertise. I respect a person who can shoot 299/300 on a trap line not because I CANNOT, but because it is absolutely inappropriate to be disrespectful to another Shooter, regardless of your talents versus their talents.

Now then.

No. XC standing off hand is slow aim fire. 200yd.

I don't need my questions answered for me. I wasn't referring to Highpower alone.

Hold radius is best developed through holding drills, and SHOOTING Offhand. In NRA stuff, we/they shoot in heavy coats. My coat costs more than a trued R700, if you get the idea. Thing is stiff, no doubt.

But it's not the coat that solves the position problems. Building core strength and support, and shooting WITHOUT the coats is what most often makes a guy better than his peers. Look at the AMU. They just about torture those guys.

I shoot some Silhouette so that I can hop in the coat and make Highpower look more easy. I've spent a lot of time and ammo and barrels and broken relationships on that hold radius.

If you wonder what your true HOLD is, shoot blindfolded. Some shooters would be damned surprised how small it really is, IF they would just learn to set up the position a little bit closer to NPA before commencing to shuck rounds. I know PRS is faster than Highpower and Silhouette, but truly, you can't always DRAAAAGGG a rifle to better hits...at least not ten in a row.

Does highpower test your ability build solid positions outside of a sling and shooting jacket, IE pretty much any shooting you do outside of highpower? How about learning how to build a ballistic table or tune your app / kestrel / etc to match your gun & ammo so you can hit targets from ANY distance, not just fixed 200/300/600. Does highpower test your ability to find targets and adjust NPA shot to shot under a time crunch, or do you get 3 minutes of prep to line up to just one target, dry fire, and get completely dialed in to hit one thing at one distance and one heading. Does highpower test your ability to effectively manage recoil and spot your own shots for adjustment, or do you have someone down range to tell you where you shot? I could go on.

Don't get me wrong, there's a ton to learn from highpower, but there are PLENTY of skills to learn from shooting PRS matches that you just don't get in highpower.

No, Highpower doesn't test everything. The closest I think we have come--but it's locally only--was a "Marine Corps" COF that ran an entire RMC (80 rounds, standing, sitting prone rapid, prone slow) to 600 yards, and followed it with 20 rounds at 1,000. To win the thing, you had to shoot the same rifle all the way through, but that was the only restriction on rifle platforms. I won the inaugural in 2014 with an A2 Service Rifle, and Neil Frenzl beat my record by 9 points in 2016 with a .243 Tube Gun. Am I proud of that? Damn right. I earned the right to be.

Learning the skills necessary to perform in broader environments is why I shoot Silhouette, Air, a little Bullseye, Sporting Clays a couple times, and I'm thinking of shooting a little Trap.

It's also why I am here, observing how you guys act, how you train, and how you treat each other. I respect Lowlight, and his opinion of the PRS community is not that high right now.

I have a lot of respect for the guys at the top of your sport, and it's amazing how fast they can get good hits; I don't KNOW, but it appears like it has the capability to make for a really well-rounded rifle shooter under 1,200m or so. Those guys versus us seem kinda like the difference between a Rally driver and an Indy driver. Both drive fast, but the former drives fast and doesn't really know where he's goin'!

I may or may not shoot some PRS, with the goal of both developing myself as a broader shooter, having fun, and maybe even winning a stage or two. We'll see. If I DO get to shoot a match, and I get my teeth kicked in, I bet you guys a beer apiece it won't be as bad as Bullseye!

-Nate

 

[Rob01]

Rob, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you shoot some Service Rifle Highpower for a little bit, outside and above the Corp?

Nope never have. All I have shot for long rifles is tactical/sniper matches which have morphed into PRS.

 

[natdscott]

Huh! Thanks for the clarification, Rob. At least you're a jerk...you've got that going for you!

Seems like I should have been over on this forum rather than SC...I think I'm too mean.

 

[morganlamprecht]

I can't tell if you're being egotistical or not, so I'll assume not. The internet is not a wonderful means of communicating tone.

As a means of explanation, I will tell you that I do not shoot PRS. The point of my post wasn't so much to pontificate on WHAT offhand should be or shouldn't be, it was to point out that this is just an academic discussion, and doesn't need to devolve into personal shit flinging. I could have made up any of those opinions, but the bold italic lines that I wanted you to read would still be the same.

But since I did not make any of it up...

I've been shooting things 3+ days out of 7 for over 80% of my life. Background was/is 25+ years of field shooting and killing about everything that could be killed legally, and probably a thing or two that couldn't. The improvised field shooting at distances from 1 through X yards (because you get no choice) served me very well in Highpower and in every other discipline I've tried. And I will try ANY shooting sport. I see no reason to back down from any shooting challenge that I think is safe to undertake. Thus, shooting 1,000 yard Offhand. (Agne, if you're watching this...I'm comin' for you! 8's or better!)

I think I've shot at least one match or shoot in at least 5 entirely separate shooting disciplines. Do you know what I found?

Not a damn one was easy. If a guy is introduced to me as a Grand Master in some pistol discipline I know nothing about, I have immediate and total respect for his efforts and expertise. I respect a person who can shoot 299/300 on a trap line not because I CANNOT, but because it is absolutely inappropriate to be disrespectful to another Shooter, regardless of your talents versus their talents.


-Nate

dont get in your feels...i wasnt attacking your discipline, your skill level, or your success...but being that this is a PRS based forum topic...how well you can shoot a different discipline, with a different rifle, time frame, etc...it doesnt really apply...because there is a different set of standards