Half the reason I love the platform is that it takes skill to make it run. I am a craftsman, I spend my days building engines, machinery, giant steel structures. I love to tinker and make things better. If you want something out of the box that you can just go shoot sub moa groups the m1a isn't for you.
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Ok I have a poll question M1A or AR10 SASS
- Thread starter 220 Swift AI
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Half the reason I love the platform is that it takes skill to make it run. I am a craftsman, I spend my days building engines, machinery, giant steel structures. I love to tinker and make things better. If you want something out of the box that you can just go shoot sub moa groups the m1a isn't for you.
all fine and dandy, and valid reasons to love the M14 Platform. If it is a hobby it is all fun. I myself love using a manual case trimmer, however, if I have to do it fast, and do a lot, I prefer my Giraud. If it is a hobby, then I will always use the manual case trimmer, but since trimming can sometimes be a chore, then that is when I use the Giraud.
also, killing with a rifle, any rifle, is not much of challenge. If you want to be challenged, use a bow. Real Hunters use bow. Any fool can shoot a gun. I have friends that told me they use a gun for meat, but they use a bow for sport. I am starting to see their side of things, and I myself think my next "gun" purchase is going to be a very nice Bow with nice arrows.
I shoot a hoyt crx 32 dangerous game with a 80lb draw. I have made my own bow as a youngster, my best friends dad taught me how to season wood, shape with a draw knife, turn and straighten arrows, knap flint. My dad made me hunt 4 seasons with a bow before I rifle hunted. I have killed my biggest bucks with a bow. If I still had the time I would almost exclusively bow hunt.
The DPMS SASS as it is set up is a great rifle off a bench or prone with optics. That stock, the grip they will all make sense when you shoot it on the range and you will flat out love it. However carrying it around that really heavy barrel, the heavy handguards, the heavy stock, it's a pig.
Also swapping the stock and grip could easily run you ~250 so then you'd be into the rifle 2000. A little bit more cash and you've got an LMT MWS or POF. In fact I see POFs for ~2000 on gunjoker all the time. IMHO those rifles are superior to the DPMS and Armalite offerings.
Don't discount the M1A either, just know that it's a quirky rifle and won't group like an AR10 will. If you go that route I'd suggest a loaded model like mine and just shoot it. Don't mess with it otherwise it will be a neverending spiral downwards trying in vain to get it to shoot better than 1.5MOA on a regular basis. When it comes to accurizing the M1A is cantankerous, uncooperative and will literally fight you every step of the way. That's why there are few smiths who will work on them and even fewer who do a good job yet you, a regular Joe with no armorer's training whatsoever, can build an AR in your garage that will shoot as well or better than the best M1As on the market. The accuracy difference between the platforms is literally astonishing when you get involved with them.
Please share with us your vast combat experince using the m14. I find it funny that people who actualy used them or served in squads with guys who were issued them don't know what they are talking about but dirt shooters and hunters know more than them?
Like you said, In your "admittedly limited experience ", which means you have no fucking idea what you are talking about, and are spewing ingorance from your suck hole.
Oh really? So you agrue with the exact points I make and then turn tale and change your tune?
Your not only ignorant, but your balls seem to be missing.
To the OP, I did not realize you were a special forces sniper in need of a rifle, I thought you were looking for something you could shoot for pleasure. Please accept my apologies.
Thanks for once again showing your ignorance and lack of experince with the platform. Here is a hint, If you are going to take a swing or talk shit about someone, have your house in order first. Or atleast have the balls to back up what you say/type.
Once again I apologize profusely for my ignorance, lack of experince, the disorderly state of my house and my shortcomings in testicular fortitude.
Forgive him, this is SnipersHide after all. Almost everyone here is some kind of Operator. Around here, no one wants to get into a discussion of viewpoints and experience (sometimes different). The Status quo here is to personally attack the person and not the subject.
I normally get into AR10 vs. M14 Discussions at least 3 times a year. I guess it's a slow year? Anyways, AR10 all day long.
As a HOBBYIST AMONG OPERATORS, here is my Hobbyist view of things.
1) AR10's come with a Scope mount included:
This is huge! A quality scope mount on a M14 will cost you about $200, and even if you do get a mount, they come loose quite often. A M14 receiver tries to twist it off. AR10, the mount can't come loose (because it's part of the upper receiver). Another problem you will find with a scoped M14 is cheekweld, actually it's more of a shoulderweld.
2) Bolt swap on an AR10 is easy:
On an AR10, just crack her open and put in the new bolt. With M14's, a bolt swap is a complicated process. Once you put in your new M14bolt, you have to lap the bolt and time the barrel to get that "magic headspace". If you have a Smith do it, he will charge you a pretty penny.
3) Barrel Swap is easy on AR10:
With an AR10, all you do is unscrew the old barrel, and screw in new barrel. No magic headspace needed. The barrels come pre-headspace from the factory. With M1A's, you have to find the "magic headspace" after you install a new barrel by timing the barrel and lapping the bolt.
4) Better Parts availability for AR10:
You can get everything for an AR10 directly from the manufacturer if you have to. With M14's, parts are not evn available from the Mfgr, and on top of that, surplus USGI parts are not really easily available anymore. Extractors, bolts, BCG, buffers, are easy to get for the AR10.
5) Better Aftermarket accessories for AR10:
For AR10s. the choices for triggers, stocks, and forends is endless. How about a nice trick barrel for an AR10? Yep, your choice. Noveske, White Oak, Schillen, etc, and you can install the barrel yourself without trying to figure out the magic headspace. Also, try getting a nice trigger for an M1A, tell me how that works out for you.
6) AR10 has the better chassis:
Reason AR10 has a better chassis is because it does not have one! It has an upper and lower, and with the correct forend/rails, you can easily FF the barrel assembly. A quality Chassis for the M1A will run you about $700.
7) AR10's are inherently more accurate:
AR style locking lugs and naturally FF barrel, you will find that it takes a lot less work to make an AR10 accurate.
8) AR10's are easy to Smith:
You can do everything on the AR10 yourself. Bolt swap, barrel swap, extractor swap, etc. No "magic headspace needed". If an AR10 does go down, they are easy to get back up. Lots of little parts on the M14 that can fail, and when they do, it's not easy to replace them and get the gun working again. Both the M14 and AR10 are fairly reliable, but what makes the AR10 10 times better than a M14 is that you easily get it up and running easier when it does break.
9) AR10's can handle hot rounds better
Hot rounds are not a problem with the AR10, the AR10 laughs at hot rounds. With M14, all it takes one hot round and say hello to Mr. Bent Oprod. A bent oprod on a M14 will turn your M14 into a club. USGI Oprods for M14's are no longer available, and even the cheap ones go for about $200. M118LR was actually loaded lighter because all the combat M14's were getting beat up.
10) AR10's does not beat up brass as much as an M14. The AR10 can get about 10 reloads from one case (LC case). The M14 beats up brass so much that you would be lucky to get 5 reloads. #10 is really for reloaders only. I know all you Operators are too busy training and do not have to reload.
11) AR10's look better.
This should be #1. Looks matter! Looks are everything.
The Cartmann .308 Family:
1) Correct on no scope mount included because most do not use optics. IF you desire optics a Bassett mount is the way to fly for around $150 and if you mount it correctly it stays in place.
Cheek weld is not the greatest but a stock pack and a donor mouse pad works wonder. A good place for your dope card.
2) Swapping a bolt is simple on the M14. Checking the head space is also simple if you know how. Setting head space is not magic but requires basic math and use of hand tools.
You also lap lugs for contact ( if needed ) then set head space. Lapping is not done to adjust or set head space.
3) Barrel swapping is very simple on all AR series rifles. So simple people just put them together and most do not measure head space which is pretty foolish IMHO.
The M14 is not hard to barrel or re-barrel but more involved than lining a pin up and turning a nut.
4) If M14 / M1A parts were truly unavailable there would be no new rifles being made. Major & minor parts are being produced as well as receivers , forged, cast or bar stock.
Lots of people are getting into the AR10 game and lots of parts available , quantity does not always = quality.
5) Not sure about "better" but a lot if stuff for AR's from triggers to bottle openers. If you want a top barrel for a M14 call Krieger. Want a good stock or chassis you have a few options.
A stoned M1A trigger can more than hold its own with Jewell , Geissele, etc. If you are looking for another drop in solution buy an AR.
6) The M14 has a chassis system available but its not inexpensive. The SAGE chassis on the EBR enhanced the accuracy of a standard M14 rifle placed into the chassis at .89" @ 100 meters / 110 Yards.
Pretty impressive for dropping a standard barrel rifle into a chassis.
Cut / Paste-
From M14 Rifle History and Development Fifth Edition by Lee Emerson copyright 2011,
"M14 EBR-RI - In 2008, the U. S. Army Tank Automotive Command (TACOM) began a project to modernize the M14 in support of U. S. Army units in Iraq. This work was performed by the Weapons Product Support Integration Directorate of the TACOM Life Cycle Management Command at Rock Island, IL. The M14 EBR-RI Program Manager was Doug Carlstrom from inception through at least June 2010. The first 400 M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle - Rock Island (M14 EBR-RI) rifles had been completed by June 2008. Another 2,200 units had been completed by March 2009. On May 05, 2010, TACOM completed its five thousandth M14 EBR-RI rifle. Another thirty units were completed that month to fulfill all requests submitted by combat unit commanders to date. The conversion of a M14 to a M14 EBR-RI included replacing the M14 stock with a Sage International late second generation M14 EBR stock, reaming the flash suppressor, replacing the cartridge clip guide with a detachable cantilevered sight base (Sage part number M14DCSB), shimming the gas cylinder, and adding a vertical grip (Sage part number 4249), a Harris bipod and a Leupold & Stevens, Inc. variable 3.5-10X day scope with medium height rings. The M14 EBR-RI rifle was shipped to the combat unit with six magazines, a vertical fore grip, a sling, an Otis Products, Inc. cleaning kit, a combination tool and operator manual. By mid-2009, some minor changes were made on new rifles: 1) a crush washer replaced the stainless steel shims 2) a redesigned operating rod guide to make use of the hand guard screws and 3) an improved detachable cantilevered sight base. The acceptance criteria was a maximum of 1.5 MOA with the result averaging 0.89 MOA for the first 5,000 built. The five TACOM rifle builders observed that TRW and Winchester barreled actions typically delivered the best accuracy. Only one rifle in the first 5,000 units was rejected for not meeting the accuracy requirement."
What's truly amazing about the M14EBR-RI is that all of the barrels are standard weight 22.0" chrome lined USGI tubes.
Just imagine the accuracy that could be extracted from tubes the big name precision M1A &
M14 barrel makers are offering when these barreled actions are bolted into SAGE EBR stocks.
7) Maybe / maybe not. The rack grade accuracy of a stock M14 and an AR10 is likely the same.
8) Yep, any tard with a wrench and hammer can roll their own, good and bad.
9) No idea because I only fire factory ammo or load to SAMMI pressure levels. If your ammo is "too hot" it can damage any platform its launched from.
10) I never kept my Armalite AR10 NM long enough to find out.
11) A statement from Stevie Wonder ? Looks means little if you can not hit the target.
I actually like both platforms but prefer the M14 / M1A over the AR for piston operation. Both rifle can be made very accurate or set up for specific purpose applications. I had an Armalite AR10 NM that was guaranteed 1 MOA out of the box and it appeared to be close. It needed a Geissele trigger because the Armalite triger was so-so. I did not keep it long enough to wring it out and sold it and picked up a new M1A Super Match. My biggest gripe about the various AR10 platforms is the magazine variation. Armalite used a modified M14 mag while other manufactures use different magazines. I am not a huge fan of polymer magazine so hopefully they standardize on a good magazine.
All of the AR's are great for the DIY guys with limited machine tools and most people can put together a decent rifle. The M14 was never designed as a modular system but still lives on today from civvy shooters , collectors and even Uncle Sam called it back into service. SAGE gave an old platform new life with the chassis system which is pretty impressive from an engineering point of view.
Buy or build something and shoot it~
No one is stopping you from loving the M14.
I use to be a M14 guy. Had 3 M14 types at one time. I never warmed to the AR while I served, it was only over time, that I truly appreciated the AR.
1) End result is there is no better scope mount than an AR!
2) Simple is relative. Installing a lift kit on my Truck was also simple, it just took 8 hours.. but it was still simple. I don't think nothing is more simpler than 1) take out old bolt 2) put in new bolt.
3) You can check headspace on an AR. Just that if it is out of whack, you can't do anything about it except return the barrel. If barrel of an AR is NOT properly headspaced, all you have to do is return it to the barrel manufacturer for a new one. Nothing wrong with taking extra time and work to install a M14 barrel if you enjoy it, this is a hobby afterall.
4) Again, it's about what is easier. Much harder to get M14 parts now. I am lucky I was into the M14 when USGI parts were plentiful. Now the USGI parts just about dried up (unless you want to pay a pretty penny). $300 for a USGI M14 bolt now! $300 for a USGI oprod now! AR parts are so cheap that even if it is not quality, it's no big deal to replace it because the part was inexpensive, and AR's are easy to work on.
5) AR has way better aftermarket accessories. From Barrels to triggers to buttstocks, to buffer tubes, to bolts, etc.
6) M14 Chassis is not expensive? I guess $800 is not expensive? For AR the "chassis" is free. Sage stock does improve accuracy of the M14, I have experienced first hand. This is done by bolting the barrel assembly to the chassis via the Oprod Guide. A M14 in a Sage is a pain the to maintain. Lots of little bolts and screws. For AR you never have to worry about screwing in the barreled action to the chassis. The M14 in a wood stock shifts zero if you take it out of the stock to clean. Takes about 30 rounds are so to "settle". Guys who shoot service rifle back in the day did the McMillan and Bedding thing, which is also NOT cheap.
7) Brand new AR will do about 2 MOA or better with match ammo right out of the box. The M1A is anywhere from 2-6MOA right out of the box. Yes a M1A can be 1 MOA, but it is much easier to make an AR a 1 MOA gun than a M14.
8) again, call us retards or call us monkeys, just saying the AR is easier to work than a M14. I have a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering, I am also a very skilled manual laborer, but sometimes I like easy, and if you see that is being retarded, than so be it. I am not going to convince you otherwise.
9) Old School real deal M118LR was kicking the M14's ass! Even USGI M14's was getting it's ass kicked. Bent Oprods galore. That is why M118LR was neutered, so the M14 could use them. AR10's on the other hand, had no problem with old school M118LR. When I load 175gr SMKs, I can get it close to 2600 fps out of my 20" AR10 with no signs of over pressure. FGMM with 175gr SMK is only about 2500s
10) just letting you know that AR's do not beat up brass as much a M14.
11) looks mean little to you, but I like my toys to look nice. I have to have it looking nice because I need to impress Cartmann. He is my hero.
Everyone should shoot what they like. No one is trying to convince you to stop loving your M14s.
I'm in the middle of that mcmillan bedding thing and am frustrated as all hell. The bedding kit I got that everyone recommended comes with a release compound that doesn't work so now I have to go to the local hardware store and look for some old fart gunsmith 'remedies'. Thank God I didn't go ape with the kit or my rifle would be perma glued to that mcmillan now....
Everyone is forgetting the whole point of the thread. Which is a better platform and which will be easier/cheaper/more forgiving to novice/newer shooters who don't understand the difference in platforms.
The AR10 walks away in every category. I am not sure why this is even a disccusion at this point.
The AR10 walks away in every category. I am not sure why this is even a disccusion at this point.
I really like all of them. I have owned the National Match, Armalite SASS, DPMS, FNH...trimming down over the last few years and the only one that remains is my 16" LWRC REPR.
Just preference, really. I have run it with the Troy irons only, Acogs, NF 1-4x24, 2.5-10x32, 3.5-15x50, T-1 and now my favorite combo Elcan OS4x with transition Duecks for irons.
Very flexible short/mid range whacker and have found mine to be totally reliable.
Love the flexibility, sub moa with SS 175 SMK and Fed GM 175 SMK, AAC can. Also great option to close the gas for suppressed shooting.
Thinking about a Springfield SOCOM shorty just because...welcome to America - may we always express our opinions both publicly and privately.
Just preference, really. I have run it with the Troy irons only, Acogs, NF 1-4x24, 2.5-10x32, 3.5-15x50, T-1 and now my favorite combo Elcan OS4x with transition Duecks for irons.
Very flexible short/mid range whacker and have found mine to be totally reliable.
Love the flexibility, sub moa with SS 175 SMK and Fed GM 175 SMK, AAC can. Also great option to close the gas for suppressed shooting.
Thinking about a Springfield SOCOM shorty just because...welcome to America - may we always express our opinions both publicly and privately.
forgive them.
to see something, you have to open your eyes to see it. some people just don't want to open their eyes.
The KISS version,
Is anyone in the top tier of the Military using an M1A/M14 EBR by CHOICE? - NO!
In anyone in the top tier of competitive shooting using or winning with an M1A/M14 EBR? - NO!
Of course if you have magically figured out something they have not, more power to you!
Is anyone in the top tier of the Military using an M1A/M14 EBR by CHOICE? - NO!
In anyone in the top tier of competitive shooting using or winning with an M1A/M14 EBR? - NO!
Of course if you have magically figured out something they have not, more power to you!
Do you have a list of music, foods, vehicles, etcetera, that those guys are using? I want to live my life exactly as they do.
I have found my 18" lwrc repr to be a joy to shoot. I see a lot of dislike from people on here but that seems to be par for the course. I wonder if any top tier military shooters use one. I bet lrshooter101 would know, he seems to be on the up and up in these matters.
Wise people learn from the blood, sweat and tears of others, so they don't have to pay the same price to gain the same knowledge.
You seem like someone who likes to learn the hard way. Ignorant people like you keep garbage outfits like SEI in business. They thank you.
What I wrote: 6) The M14 has a chassis system available but its not inexpensive.
Hint~ That means its expensive for those that lack basic reading comprehension.
Your maintenance analysis is pretty funny though.
Is there anything I can say that does not enrage you? Please do not maul me with your fierce gonad mighty warrior.
to me, $800 is expensive or without comprehension. but expensive and comprehension is all relative. YMMV
A trivia tid bit on M14 bent op rod/s & M118LR / if anyone is shooting one or the ammo~
The USMC help develop the original M118LR load, the first years were very Hot near 2700fps and were intended to be used with the M40 series sniper rifles, someone had the bright idea too use the same ammo in the DMR M14 sounded good but the rifles and op-rods took a heavy beating from the recoil and the M/V was down loaded some, a few years later Sept 11 happened and the M118LR went too war, it was found that the powders were found to be heat sensitive the pressures generated made the rifle beat itself again, so a different powder was needed the M/V was down loaded again too what we have today, just over 2600 fps in the M14/M1a rifle.
There have been some very well documented issues with M118LR ammo performance in M14 rifles, most have been resolved, but as a standard precaution don't shoot M118LR made prior too 2006 in a 7.62 M1 or M1A
When the 175 Sierra was the new kid on the block, Derick Martin and Barrett Tillman did the original load development workup for use in the M14/M1a rifles back in 1995 for "Precision Shooting" magazine.
There best load used was 42gr IMR-4064 in a LC case coal 2.83 M/V was a touch over 2600 fps and it didn't pound the rifle too death and still remained stable out too 1000 yds.
The USMC help develop the original M118LR load, the first years were very Hot near 2700fps and were intended to be used with the M40 series sniper rifles, someone had the bright idea too use the same ammo in the DMR M14 sounded good but the rifles and op-rods took a heavy beating from the recoil and the M/V was down loaded some, a few years later Sept 11 happened and the M118LR went too war, it was found that the powders were found to be heat sensitive the pressures generated made the rifle beat itself again, so a different powder was needed the M/V was down loaded again too what we have today, just over 2600 fps in the M14/M1a rifle.
There have been some very well documented issues with M118LR ammo performance in M14 rifles, most have been resolved, but as a standard precaution don't shoot M118LR made prior too 2006 in a 7.62 M1 or M1A
When the 175 Sierra was the new kid on the block, Derick Martin and Barrett Tillman did the original load development workup for use in the M14/M1a rifles back in 1995 for "Precision Shooting" magazine.
There best load used was 42gr IMR-4064 in a LC case coal 2.83 M/V was a touch over 2600 fps and it didn't pound the rifle too death and still remained stable out too 1000 yds.
yet AR10 can handle that hot load just fine... please discuss....
looks like you are trying to convince yourself you need to love your M14... no need. you love whatever you want. don't need to make excuses.
Its what has been stated long before so no convincing needed for me, you can believe what you wish.
I also do not make any excuse for selling an AR10 and keeping what I like better but I know the limitations of both.
You are the one that lumped the issue on the rifle platform and not the ammo which is what it was reported to be the issue.
(That reading comprehension thing again ?)
If you think the AR10 is "OK" for firing high pressure or over spec pressures go for it and maybe you can snag the Darwin award this year.
Now back to your cheer-leading on how superior one gun is over another.
Apparently these guys never got your memo~
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-semi-auto-rifles/245362-ammo-issues-my-308-ar.html
( I like comment #8)
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...843-dpms-lr-308-excessive-pressure-print.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...5707-ar10-pressure-issues-w-factory-ammo.html
you are forgetting I am a M14 lover. I don't need excuses to love the M14. You do! You have defended the M14 non-stop as if it was your boyfriend, and you have to protect his honor.
Please discuss...
found it! don't believe this guy. you M14 lovers need to think and do whatever it is you do so you can sleep better at night.
Really, is that the best that you can come up with?
If I am going to stake my life on weapon usage (I have & still do), then it might be smart to take note of what those individuals who do it on a daily basis have learned the hard way.
If I am going to attempt to win at the highest levels of competition (I have & still do), then I am probably going to take note of what those individuals who are winning on a daily basis are doing to make it happen.
If you do neither, you still might want to take note, because unless you want to end up with something less than optimal, then you might want to consider what has been PROVEN to be the most effective under the most demanding conditions. If you are happy with something less, then best of luck to you when it falls short.
TO QUOTE YOU
If you want to spend hours working on your rifles so they shoot effectively, more power to you. I don't know of any other people that share that opinion. The people I shoot with need constant reliability and accuracy, and having to constantly dick around with their rifles to make that happen is not an option.
If anyone can't figure out that the M1A/M14 has a bucket load of issues and shortcomings that the AR platforms do NOT, then ignorance is bliss, enjoy it!
You can remain silent until you have a basic understanding of the subject matter you think you should comment on. That would be a fine and wise start.
I never thought my question was going to bring out so much emotion maybe I should just buy one of each and decide for my self. I guess I already new the answer to this question but hold a soft spot for the m1a platform.
That's my "expert" advice (see my previous post in this trainwreck of a thread)!
Why have just ONE when you can have BOTH?!?!?!All of the facts/assertions/positions/etc. noted above, there is NOTHING wrong with the M1A within the specific pros/cons/limitations that are just within the nature of the platform and are more or less insurmountable issues that you can't change no matter how much time, money, energy, etc. you invest. If you recognize and take those issues into consideration as you purchase one, knowing what the platform can/cannot get you at the end of the day, then you'll be a happy, educated consumer. Same goes for the AR-platform (whether AR-15 or large-frame AR). As for which one will be "best" for you...well that's ultimately a question that only YOU can answer based on your particular world-view about each platform and your expectations for same.
I will share my own bias that I'd jump on a large-frame AR 10 timex out of 10 before the M1A for 99% of what I'd need from a .308/like gas gun. HOWEVER, I do love the M1A from a historical/collector's mindset (much the same way that I love my M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, '03 Springfields, etc.) and I really enjoy shooting them.
I started off in the 308 world with a DPMS LR-308. The gun was heavy but shot great, right of the box with the GI trigger. Back then I was a 3-shot group shooter and putting three of my reloads under an inch at 200 yards was an easy task.
A few years went by and someone offered to trade me their pre-ban standard M1A with tools and accessories for it. Being that I had always wanted an M1A, I made the trade. The difference between the LR-308 and the M1A was pretty stark. About the only thing the M1A had going for it was the trigger was better out of the box. I only shot it with open sights because for me, putting a scope on an M1A is like putting a V8 engine into a Toyota Corolla....everything has to change.
During the craze last year I was offered about double what I had into the M1A so it went down the road. I seriously considered taking the money and getting a Larue OBR but instead I built a nice bolt rifle. I find that my precision AR in 223 will do everything I need inside of 600 yards, beyond that I choose my bolt gun.
A few years went by and someone offered to trade me their pre-ban standard M1A with tools and accessories for it. Being that I had always wanted an M1A, I made the trade. The difference between the LR-308 and the M1A was pretty stark. About the only thing the M1A had going for it was the trigger was better out of the box. I only shot it with open sights because for me, putting a scope on an M1A is like putting a V8 engine into a Toyota Corolla....everything has to change.
During the craze last year I was offered about double what I had into the M1A so it went down the road. I seriously considered taking the money and getting a Larue OBR but instead I built a nice bolt rifle. I find that my precision AR in 223 will do everything I need inside of 600 yards, beyond that I choose my bolt gun.
Buying both is the way to go. M1As have a small but very dedicated fanbase so their resale is pretty good, especially in ban states where ARs are restricted but M1As are not.
If I had to pick just one and only one I really think it is worthwhile to spend for a top tier 308 AR and a good optic like a nightforce. They shoot like clockwork right out of the box. BUT, I have just as much fun with my M1A too...
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That's my "expert" advice (see my previous post in this trainwreck of a thread)!
All of the facts/assertions/positions/etc. noted above, there is NOTHING wrong with the M1A within the specific pros/cons/limitations that are just within the nature of the platform and are more or less insurmountable issues that you can't change no matter how much time, money, energy, etc. you invest. If you recognize and take those issues into consideration as you purchase one, knowing what the platform can/cannot get you at the end of the day, then you'll be a happy, educated consumer. Same goes for the AR-platform (whether AR-15 or large-frame AR). As for which one will be "best" for you...well that's ultimately a question that only YOU can answer based on your particular world-view about each platform and your expectations for same.
I will share my own bias that I'd jump on a large-frame AR 10 timex out of 10 before the M1A for 99% of what I'd need from a .308/like gas gun. HOWEVER, I do love the M1A from a historical/collector's mindset (much the same way that I love my M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, '03 Springfields, etc.) and I really enjoy shooting them.
Well said ORD.
That's my "expert" advice (see my previous post in this trainwreck of a thread)!
All of the facts/assertions/positions/etc. noted above, there is NOTHING wrong with the M1A within the specific pros/cons/limitations that are just within the nature of the platform and are more or less insurmountable issues that you can't change no matter how much time, money, energy, etc. you invest. If you recognize and take those issues into consideration as you purchase one, knowing what the platform can/cannot get you at the end of the day, then you'll be a happy, educated consumer. Same goes for the AR-platform (whether AR-15 or large-frame AR). As for which one will be "best" for you...well that's ultimately a question that only YOU can answer based on your particular world-view about each platform and your expectations for same.
I will share my own bias that I'd jump on a large-frame AR 10 timex out of 10 before the M1A for 99% of what I'd need from a .308/like gas gun. HOWEVER, I do love the M1A from a historical/collector's mindset (much the same way that I love my M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, '03 Springfields, etc.) and I really enjoy shooting them.
Advice and opinion delivered without insult, attack or general douche-baggery. Outstanding reply.
Buying both is the way to go. M1As have a small but very dedicated fanbase so their resale is pretty good, especially in ban states where ARs are restricted but M1As are not.
If I had to pick just one and only one I really think it is worthwhile to spend for a top tier 308 AR and a good optic like a nightforce. They shoot like clockwork right out of the box. BUT, I have just as much fun with my M1A too...
I concur.
My repr/nightforce combo is a tack driver and took zero work to get that way.
Sorry for the shitty pic, cannot get it to upload a better one. Hopefully cobracutter will insult my picture taking skills, I deserve it.
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always does when cobra jumps in. its not what he means so much. hes usually technically correct. its his demeaning tone and lack of respect for others and their opinions that throw it off.
I am not going to condone personal attacks, but there is another reason why this went sideways, like many other topics, some people can't seem to separate FACTS from OPINION.
After stating the FACTS repeatedly, and getting everything except FACTS for a reply, some folks will understandably get pissed off.
Final FACTS,
It is a FACT that people LIKE the M1A/ M14 for many reasons. However the FACT that they LIKE IT, does NOT make it a BETTER overall operational platform.
If it was a BETTER overall operational platform, the Military would not have TAKEN IT OUT OF SERVICE and replaced it, and the competitive shooters would not have STOPPED USING IT and moved onto other platforms!
If anyone would like to point out anything in my replies where I am trying to pass off an OPINION as FACT feel free.
Its an internet forum, so opinions are obviously going to be part of it, but it would be real nice if people would NOT try to argue OPINIONS as FACT!
This is NOT a personal issue with anyone, but it is an attempt to make sure that this Forum is filled with useful FACTUAL INFORMATION, and not just a bunch of personal opinions or misinformation.
After stating the FACTS repeatedly, and getting everything except FACTS for a reply, some folks will understandably get pissed off.
FACT - an M1A is NOT anywhere near as easy, economical, or as quick to configure as an AR platform. That does not require a firearms expert to figure out.
FACT - especially as far as SOCOM is concerned, the M14 EBR is history, and they are being replaced with an M110 or SCAR (I clearly showed that in my reply). The branches of the military that still have it, don't have it by choice, they are stuck with it. Some people seem to forget that the M14 was mothballed, and was only pressed back into service. If it was the amazing rifle that some people make it out to be, it would not have been pulled from active service.
FACT - The top tier of Military and LE Snipers and Competitive Shooters have ditched the M14. If the people who shoot for their lives and for their living have given up on the M14 and moved onto AR platforms, then that probably speaks to its reputation, stature, and overall value.
FACT - That is the BEST COMMENT posted in this entire thread, especially given what is actually FACT in this thread and what is OPINION.
FACT - I am NOT an ARMCHAIR SNIPER, and I have provided plenty of FACTUAL INFORMATION, much of it first hand from my MILITARY, LE, and COMPETITIVE SHOOTING experiences. Because you have "killed" some deer and yotes with your M1A, doesn't make the M1A anything other than an average hunting rifle.
FACT - More accurate and easier to maintain, would be FACTS. "LIKE" does not make something better or superior beyond anything other than personal preference.
Final FACTS,
It is a FACT that people LIKE the M1A/ M14 for many reasons. However the FACT that they LIKE IT, does NOT make it a BETTER overall operational platform.
If it was a BETTER overall operational platform, the Military would not have TAKEN IT OUT OF SERVICE and replaced it, and the competitive shooters would not have STOPPED USING IT and moved onto other platforms!
If anyone would like to point out anything in my replies where I am trying to pass off an OPINION as FACT feel free.
Its an internet forum, so opinions are obviously going to be part of it, but it would be real nice if people would NOT try to argue OPINIONS as FACT!
This is NOT a personal issue with anyone, but it is an attempt to make sure that this Forum is filled with useful FACTUAL INFORMATION, and not just a bunch of personal opinions or misinformation.
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Personally I think that is way fair response. Maybe the problem with with the term "better" is that it's opened ended. I personally hate m14's for exactly the reasons provided. But I can understand how someone could "like" it better. They have soul and nostalgia. That doesn't make it a better weapon. In any sense. But, ask me if I like my glock better than my colt single action... answer no. I hate that ugly glock but i carry it every day by choice. Same kind of argument. I think that was kind of Erics point, say you love it because you love it. Not because there is any line item technical detail that gets argued on some esoteric point. also, like you said, these are our personal opinions. We form those for our own reasons. Not liking someone else's opinion isn't cause for personal attacks. Especially on a message board for people that share an obvious interest. The OP has read more about how we belittle each other than anything worth reading on either weapon system. Hey OP. Hers my take. AT platform is a provably better weapon. But 14's have soul. What it all comes down to is personal likes really. If your not an operator, I'm not, then you shoot for fun. So shoot what makes you smile.
Also. To be fair to cobra. His first response to thread was reasoned and polite. Good stuff. It's the Nutting up after someone made a counter point that kind of gets me. OP asked for opinions. Opinions were given. And then it did what every m14/m 16 thread does lol. Goes down in flame.
LRshooter101 I didn't even read your giant wall of butthurt. If I want a novel I will pick up Louis l'amour. No wonder al qaeda is making a comeback, our two most fearsome warriors are too busy berating me on the internet.
Read my SIG line that should put things in perspective. Ha ha. Oh and thanks for the info guys.
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