Ok I have a poll question M1A or AR10 SASS

[LRShooter101]

The original post is not about AR15 and M1A, but rather about AR10 and M1A. Like I mentioned I have not seen an AR10 used in across the course

. . . . . . . .

What rifle do you shoot across the course?

Check below and you will see what will probably be the future, especially at the longer ranges:
USAMU Teams Set 1K Records at Interservice Championships « Daily Bulletin

USAMU is starting to get their AR10s dialed in. Whether they will ever trade off their AR15s for the 200/300/600 matches is still to be seen?

Per your comments above, it comes down to a battle of improved ballistics, versus increased recoil. Given that those matches are usually won or lost at 200 standing, it may not be in the cards for those matches?

Personally, I have shot about anything and everything from an M1A & AR15 in Service, to a number of "Custom" Bolt & Autoloaders in Match.

Times are a changing, it will be interesting to see where it all goes?

 

[BCP]

OK is the ss barrel that much better than the blued barrel on a m1a? I'm gone to buy both now and maybe a so com version of the m1a platform.

They are both wilson barrels, the stainless loaded chromoly loaded. Both shoot the same. Like I said earlier mine is a 2MOA rifle, at times much better but if I sit down and shoot say three or four groups in a row they will average right at 2".

As far as maintenance goes I would say purchase USGI extractor, spring, plunger, ejector, spring, and recoil spring. Treeline, Windy City should have them in stock. You'll need them eventually might as well have them on hand.

I hate the socom. To me it's money wasted. If you want a good 308 carbine get an FAL, or better yet a 308 AR with a short barrel. Then you'll have something that is not only compact but accurate as well.

CMI mags are good, should be 25$ apiece for 20rd ones.

You'll love your M1A as long as you don't try to heavily modify it or measure group size vs your other rifles. If you do you may discover that your AK with 154gr tula ammo shot a group that was damn near the same size............

 

[Smcarroll]

So since we are back on topic, what's the general consensus on the 16" models? I have heard negative things, that the gas system being shortened causes issues?

Another vote for the CMI mags. I have been running some 20 round ones and just recently picked up some 25's. Very high quality.

 

[EricCartmann]

I own a lwrc repr with a nf on it. It was just a colorful adjective. If it unsticks your panties I will edit it.

So LWRC REPR with NF is OK?

you are the one that is making the rules, I am flexible either way. Let me know what you want me to like and what you want me to think is douche. I am here to make people happy and feel good about themselves.

 

[EricCartmann]

Feel free to go fuck yourself with a rake.
Now that is funny shit right there. I don't care who it was directed at.

yes I think it's cute when kids get colorful. That's why I always buy the 64 Crayola Crayon set over the 16 crayon set. More colors!

 

[EricCartmann]

I get it now...
AR10 in CMP = no
AR10 in NRA = yes

I am too lazy to look it up, but when did the NRA allow AR10's to compete in the Service Rifle class? I know about 10 years ago, AR10's were not allowed in anything.

 

[Smcarroll]

Holy shit. You are either retarded or trolling. Either way it has earned you a place on my ignore list alongside turdcutter.

 

[EricCartmann]

Holy shit. You are either retarded or trolling. Either way it has earned you a place on my ignore list alongside turdcutter.

are you saying you do not want to be my friend? I am just trying to agree with you... what am I doing wrong? NOW CARTMANN IS SAD

 

[marduk185]

think she queefed on yer face cartman

 

[EricCartmann]

think she queefed on yer face cartman

cartmann loves receiving queefs!

 

[LRShooter101]

I get it now...
AR10 in CMP = no
AR10 in NRA = yes

I am too lazy to look it up, but when did the NRA allow AR10's to compete in the Service Rifle class? I know about 10 years ago, AR10's were not allowed in anything.

Rules change occurred back in 2009,

3.1.6 Service Rifle - U.S. Rifle, Caliber 7.62mm M-110 series as issued by the U.S. Armed Forces, or the same type and caliber of commercially procured rifle without bipod, having not less than a 4 1/2 pound trigger pull with standard-type stock, pistol grip, handguard, and leather or web sling. In all courses of fire and in all positions, the standard 20 round box magazine or a reduced magazine of the same external dimensions will be attached. The gas system must be fully operational. External alterations to the barrel, upper and lower receivers, stock, handguard, or pistol grip will not be allowed, except that plastic covers may be used on the mounting rails on the handguard. The flash suppressor may be removed or the rifle may be manufactured without a flash suppressor. Barrel length may not exceed 20 inches, as measured to the end of the rifling in the barrel. The front sling swivel must be attached to the end of the handguard, and must remain in the 6 o’clock position no more than 1/2 inches from its original location. The sights must be of the standard design found on the M16 series of firearms. Rear sight windage and elevation adjustments may be modified to allow finer adjustments. No optical sights are allowed. The removable carry handle and front sight assembly must conform to the dimensions specified. The rear sight aperture and front sight width may vary in width to suit the shooter. The rear aperture may be hooded.

AMU (along with others) pitched a bitch because the M110 was an "official Mil service rifle" and there was a large quantity of them in service, but they were not allowed in competition. Per my earlier post they are now using them to great success in the 1,000 yard matches.

I am not huge fan of the NRA/CMP XTC rules and matches because they are way to restrictive and impractical IMHO. There is no question that shooting a Service Rifle Across-the-Course will build strong marksmanship fundamentals, but I prefer to spend my trigger time shooting in a format that I actually use on a daily basis. The chances of me shooting standing at 200 yards or sitting at 300 yards are basically nonexistent. Per an earlier post, I am much bigger fan of the new National Defense Match format, or F-Class. I chased my Distinguished for a couple of years, but couldn't find enough time to make EIC matches and still do all of my other training/shooting.

And with that, I will cease with the NRA/CMP competition sidetrack.

 

[wxl]

No experience with a SASS but do have an AR10 and M1A Loaded. Like both but would sell the AR10 first if one had to go.

 

[VJJPunisher]

is a gay queef called a quart, or a fueef?

 

[WATERWALKER]

I realize the M14 / M1A platform is a bit dated. It's also a bit heavy. That being said, there are not many rifles out there that are more fun to shoot than the SOCOM II. I bought one a while ago & It shoots great. With the shortened barrel you lose muzzle velocity (shooting M118 I think it's 375 FPS). Regardless, it still provides superior stopping power when compared to 5.56 ball ammo. The recoil of the SOCOM II is almost nonexistent.

Nobody ever mentions the SOCOM II in these discussions. This gun is also very maneuverable in close confines. In fairness, customizing a M1A with aftermarket parts is a challenge to say the least. I looked & looked for an oversized charging handle w / no luck. I'm not trying to stir the pot, just throwing another opinion out there.

 

[EricCartmann]

is a gay queef called a quart, or a fueef?

What is a gay queef? Can you explain since no one except you heard of this? Please discuss...

 

[EricCartmann]

I realize the M14 / M1A platform is a bit dated. It's also a bit heavy. That being said, there are not many rifles out there that are more fun to shoot than the SOCOM II. I bought one a while ago & It shoots great. With the shortened barrel you lose muzzle velocity (shooting M118 I think it's 375 FPS). Regardless, it still provides superior stopping power when compared to 5.56 ball ammo. The recoil of the SOCOM II is almost nonexistent.

Nobody ever mentions the SOCOM II in these discussions. This gun is also very maneuverable in close confines. In fairness, customizing a M1A with aftermarket parts is a challenge to say the least. I looked & looked for an oversized charging handle w / no luck. I'm not trying to stir the pot, just throwing another opinion out there.

What makes the 16" barrel in a AR10 less maneuverable than a 16" barrel in a MIA (not a spelling mistake)?

 

[WATERWALKER]

I said "very maneuverable." who said anything about more maneuverable?

 

[LRShooter101]

I realize the M14 / M1A platform is a bit dated. It's also a bit heavy. That being said, there are not many rifles out there that are more fun to shoot than the SOCOM II. I bought one a while ago & It shoots great. With the shortened barrel you lose muzzle velocity (shooting M118 I think it's 375 FPS). Regardless, it still provides superior stopping power when compared to 5.56 ball ammo. The recoil of the SOCOM II is almost nonexistent.

Nobody ever mentions the SOCOM II in these discussions. This gun is also very maneuverable in close confines. In fairness, customizing a M1A with aftermarket parts is a challenge to say the least. I looked & looked for an oversized charging handle w / no luck. I'm not trying to stir the pot, just throwing another opinion out there.

It is another option,

However it is an option that is heavier, more expensive, less easy to modify, harder to maintain, and the list goes on in terms of CONS that an M1A platform has, that an AR platform DOES NOT!

Does the SOCOM II have an adjustable stock option? Sure if you want to change out the entire stock system at a major cost.
Does the SOCOM II have a handguard length & type option? Not really, once again only if you want to change the entire stock system out, and it is still limited.
Does the SOCOM II have a lot of barrel options (size, length, type)? No, your barrel options are very limited for a number of reasons.

I could easily go on, but the point should be obvious to anyone who cares to acknowledge the real disadvantages and limitations.

How would you like your Short Barrel (16"-18") .308 AR built?
308 WIN & 7.62 NATO 16-18

There are 11 base models to start with, and with the build options, there are easily 50 different configurations that you could come up with. And that is just the options from one manufacturer!

I had both (many years ago!),

and after about a year of running them all side-by-side, the M1As went bye-bye because there was nothing that the ARs couldn't do better, cheaper, or easier.

Once again, personal preference is just that. But factual performance is also just that, and the AR platform will run circles around the M1A platform in any category.

 

[Smcarroll]

I said "very maneuverable." who said anything about more maneuverable?

Don't try to use logic on cartman, he cannot understand simple conversations.

 

[EricCartmann]

Don't try to use logic on cartman, he cannot understand simple conversations.

Cartmann is a Master in Logic. He has a Bachelor's in Electrical Engineering. Most Americans can't do EE because Most Americans lack logic and can't even do basic math.

 

[EricCartmann]

I said "very maneuverable." who said anything about more maneuverable?

very maneuverable compared to what? A 50 BMG Barrett?

 

[cal50]

You'll love your M1A as long as you don't try to heavily modify it or measure group size vs your other rifles. If you do you may discover that your AK with 154gr tula ammo shot a group that was damn near the same size............

So what is the average group size of an AK ?
Is it under MOA ?


You do realize that the M14 dropped into an EBR chassis averaged .89" @ 100 meters / 110 yards.
I have yet to see an AK perform at that level, heavily modified or not.

 

[Cobracutter]

Cartmann is a Master in Logic. He has a Bachelor's in Electrical Engineering. Most Americans can't do EE because Most Americans lack logic and can't even do basic math.

Don't confuse them with big words or more than 2 syllables. They get confused and start hurting themselves.

 

[Cobracutter]

So what is the average group size of an AK ?
Is it under MOA ?


You do realize that the M14 dropped into an EBR chassis averaged .89" @ 100 meters / 110 yards.
I have yet to see an AK perform at that level, heavily modified or not.

One M14? Big mother fucking Deal. There is probably an AK out there that shoots .25MOA with Wolf steel, but that does not represent the platform. Show me 25 M14's pulled out of depot, dropped into a EBR chassis, and I will show you 20+ guns that don't even sniff MOA. Stop dicking this forum up with your ignorance and stupidity.

Once again the obvious goes over your head. Please go take this test: Asperger's Quiz : The Quick and Easy Asperger's Test and get yourself some help.

 

[cal50]

One M14? Big mother fucking Deal. There is probably an AK out there that shoots .25MOA with Wolf steel, but that does not represent the platform. Show me 25 M14's pulled out of depot, dropped into a EBR chassis, and I will show you 20+ guns that don't even sniff MOA. Stop dicking this forum up with your ignorance and stupidity.

Once again the obvious goes over your head. Please go take this test: Asperger's Quiz : The Quick and Easy Asperger's Test and get yourself some help.

One rifle?
Guess again turdcutter.


One rifle failed out of 5000 that were in for conversion / rebuild.
A 1/4 moa AK , man do you REALLY talk some shit, likely because you are full of yourself and / or shit.



AMC Deputy Chief of Staff on Target with M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle | Article | The United States Army

Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan | Army Times | armytimes.com



Maybe you wan to call Crane a liar and have the article re-written to reflect your vast knowledge on the topic.






Cut/ paste:

From M14 Rifle History and Development Fifth Edition by Lee Emerson copyright 2011,

"M14 EBR-RI - In 2008, the U. S. Army Tank Automotive Command (TACOM) began a project to modernize the M14 in support of U. S. Army units in Iraq. This work was performed by the Weapons Product Support Integration Directorate of the TACOM Life Cycle Management Command at Rock Island, IL. The M14 EBR-RI Program Manager was Doug Carlstrom from inception through at least June 2010. The first 400 M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle - Rock Island (M14 EBR-RI) rifles had been completed by June 2008. Another 2,200 units had been completed by March 2009. On May 05, 2010, TACOM completed its five thousandth M14 EBR-RI rifle. Another thirty units were completed that month to fulfill all requests submitted by combat unit commanders to date. The conversion of a M14 to a M14 EBR-RI included replacing the M14 stock with a Sage International late second generation M14 EBR stock, reaming the flash suppressor, replacing the cartridge clip guide with a detachable cantilevered sight base (Sage part number M14DCSB), shimming the gas cylinder, and adding a vertical grip (Sage part number 4249), a Harris bipod and a Leupold & Stevens, Inc. variable 3.5-10X day scope with medium height rings. The M14 EBR-RI rifle was shipped to the combat unit with six magazines, a vertical fore grip, a sling, an Otis Products, Inc. cleaning kit, a combination tool and operator manual. By mid-2009, some minor changes were made on new rifles: 1) a crush washer replaced the stainless steel shims 2) a redesigned operating rod guide to make use of the hand guard screws and 3) an improved detachable cantilevered sight base. The acceptance criteria was a maximum of 1.5 MOA with the result averaging 0.89 MOA for the first 5,000 built. The five TACOM rifle builders observed that TRW and Winchester barreled actions typically delivered the best accuracy. Only one rifle in the first 5,000 units was rejected for not meeting the accuracy requirement."

What's truly amazing about the M14EBR-RI is that all of the barrels are standard weight 22.0" chrome lined USGI tubes.

 

[BCP]

So what is the average group size of an AK ?
Is it under MOA ?


You do realize that the M14 dropped into an EBR chassis averaged .89" @ 100 meters / 110 yards.
I have yet to see an AK perform at that level, heavily modified or not.

For 3 shots fired in a wind tunnel and they picked the best 3...

My M1A was doing about 2MOA that day, the AK got a 2 3/4" group, it was a joke...jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzz......

 

[Cobracutter]

For 3 shots fired in a wind tunnel and they picked the best 3...

My M1A was doing about 2MOA that day, the AK got a 2 3/4" group, it was a joke...jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzz......

I told you its aspergers or something. He just doesn't "get it".

 

[cal50]

Continue on ladies-

 

[Smcarroll]

Continue on ladies-

Why do you even bother to respond to turdcutter? He is so angry and upset all the time it actually worries me that he has military training and firearms. I just hope he gets help before we see him on the news.

 

[cal50]

Why do you even bother to respond to turdcutter? He is so angry and upset all the time it actually worries me that he has military training and firearms. I just hope he gets help before we see him on the news.

You gotta get that BP up to stroke level although he might have a stroke and end up smarter.


Everyone brings joy to this forum, some when they enter and others when they leave.
When turdcutter gets kicked it will be a better forum.

 

[EricCartmann]

When the math problem gets tough, no need to attack the problem. Just throw insults to the math book.

BTW: I still don't think there is anything wrong with being emotionally attached to your rifle.

 

[KentuckyWindage]

BTW: I still don't think there is anything wrong with being emotionally attached to your rifle.

There is nothing wrong with it. Fuck the cool kids.

 

[LRShooter101]

One rifle?

. . . . . . .

Maybe you wan to call Crane a liar and have the article re-written to reflect your vast knowledge on the topic.

"M14 EBR-RI - In 2008, the U. S. Army Tank Automotive Command (TACOM) began a project to modernize the M14 in support of U. S. Army units in Iraq. This work was performed by the Weapons Product Support Integration Directorate of the TACOM Life Cycle Management Command at Rock Island, IL. The M14 EBR-RI Program Manager was Doug Carlstrom from inception through at least June 2010. The first 400 M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle - Rock Island (M14 EBR-RI) rifles had been completed by June 2008. Another 2,200 units had been completed by March 2009. On May 05, 2010, TACOM completed its five thousandth M14 EBR-RI rifle. Another thirty units were completed that month to fulfill all requests submitted by combat unit commanders to date. The conversion of a M14 to a M14 EBR-RI included replacing the M14 stock with a Sage International late second generation M14 EBR stock, reaming the flash suppressor, replacing the cartridge clip guide with a detachable cantilevered sight base (Sage part number M14DCSB), shimming the gas cylinder, and adding a vertical grip (Sage part number 4249), a Harris bipod and a Leupold & Stevens, Inc. variable 3.5-10X day scope with medium height rings. The M14 EBR-RI rifle was shipped to the combat unit with six magazines, a vertical fore grip, a sling, an Otis Products, Inc. cleaning kit, a combination tool and operator manual. By mid-2009, some minor changes were made on new rifles: 1) a crush washer replaced the stainless steel shims 2) a redesigned operating rod guide to make use of the hand guard screws and 3) an improved detachable cantilevered sight base. The acceptance criteria was a maximum of 1.5 MOA with the result averaging 0.89 MOA for the first 5,000 built. The five TACOM rifle builders observed that TRW and Winchester barreled actions typically delivered the best accuracy. Only one rifle in the first 5,000 units was rejected for not meeting the accuracy requirement."

What's truly amazing about the M14EBR-RI is that all of the barrels are standard weight 22.0" chrome lined USGI tubes.

While I would not totally discount this information, I would take it with a grain of salt!

1 - if you read into the information you will note that they admit that the number of rounds fired from each rifle varied during the testing. While I am not going to say that it was the case with every rifle, I am sure that there was some "Cherry Picking" going on, meaning the best 3 shot group fired was the one that got recorded, versus the worst group or an average of all groups fired. While I would not call the Crane Evaluators "liars", I probably would say they may have been "opportunist". Would they want all of their hard work to go towards turning out reject rifles? Also per below, looking at a single 3 shot group from a rifle like an M1A is only a very small part of the actual overall performance capability.

2 - you have to keep in mind that this is not a "Stock M1A", instead the EBR M1A is mounted into a chassis and tuned. If you read about some of the other M1A "Upgrades" that lacked the "tuning" with shims or tension like the M39 EMR, their performance results were less. A common performance capability quoted for those rifles was in the 1.5-2.0 MOA range.

3 - as mentioned earlier, keeping an M1A shooting consistently can require work. If any of the "tuning" elements change, then the performance level of the rifle can change or drop off. Evaluating the performance capability of a rifle based on a single 3 shot group fired at the begging of its life cycle is limited at best in this case. I am sure there would have been some different results noted if these rifles had been pulled back in after being in the field for 6-12 months, and a full evaluation of their performance capability conducted.

4 - also bear in mind what you are talking about in terms of performance with an M14 EBR and what you are paying for it! $1,650 M1A + $850 Sage Stock + $200 Scope Mount = $2,700. Plenty of AR platform options for significantly less than that.

I am by no means trying to say that an EBR is not capable of firing a sub MOA group, but I am saying that there is a lot more to it than just yanking an M1A rifle out of box and consistently having the capability to fire sub MOA groups.

Per the pic I posted above, the performance of my M1A improved when I put it in the JAE stock and tuned it up. However it took the financial investment in the stock, the effort to put it all together and tune it, and the effort to keep it tuned for that improved performance level. To the contrary, I took my AR out of the box, shot it, and did not have to do anything for a 1 MOA performance level.

Food for thought.

 

[svxwilson]

I don't watch TV for entertainment. I just find the M1A/AR-10 discussions and get schooled in comedy, mathematics, logic, and general insults. Seriously I laugh at something new in this thread daily.

 

[cal50]

While I would not totally discount this information, I would take it with a grain of salt!

1 - if you read into the information you will note that they admit that the number of rounds fired from each rifle varied during the testing. While I am not going to say that it was the case with every rifle, I am sure that there was some "Cherry Picking" going on, meaning the best 3 shot group fired was the one that got recorded, versus the worst group or an average of all groups fired. While I would not call the Crane Evaluators "liars", I probably would say they may have been "opportunist". Would they want all of their hard work to go towards turning out reject rifles? Also per below, looking at a single 3 shot group from a rifle like an M1A is only a very small part of the actual overall performance capability.

2 - you have to keep in mind that this is not a "Stock M1A", instead the EBR M1A is mounted into a chassis and tuned. If you read about some of the other M1A "Upgrades" that lacked the "tuning" with shims or tension like the M39 EMR, their performance results were less. A common performance capability quoted for those rifles was in the 1.5-2.0 MOA range.

3 - as mentioned earlier, keeping an M1A shooting consistently can require work. If any of the "tuning" elements change, then the performance level of the rifle can change or drop off. Evaluating the performance capability of a rifle based on a single 3 shot group fired at the begging of its life cycle is limited at best in this case. I am sure there would have been some different results noted if these rifles had been pulled back in after being in the field for 6-12 months, and a full evaluation of their performance capability conducted.

4 - also bear in mind what you are talking about in terms of performance with an M14 EBR and what you are paying for it! $1,650 M1A + $850 Sage Stock + $200 Scope Mount = $2,700. Plenty of AR platform options for significantly less than that.

I am by no means trying to say that an EBR is not capable of firing a sub MOA group, but I am saying that there is a lot more to it than just yanking an M1A rifle out of box and consistently having the capability to fire sub MOA groups.

Per the pic I posted above, the performance of my M1A improved when I put it in the JAE stock and tuned it up. However it took the financial investment in the stock, the effort to put it all together and tune it, and the effort to keep it tuned for that improved performance level. To the contrary, I took my AR out of the box, shot it, and did not have to do anything for a 1 MOA performance level.

Food for thought.

Well said no disagreement with anything ~

My point of contention was / is a very dated and proven system can still perform well today The M1 / M14 is a very dated but proven system and with some new engineering and materials it gave an old dog some new life. I never said its the "best" system because there is no best although I do feel piston guns have an advantage in adverse conditions or extended firing roles. Since I never carried an M14 in combat I can not attest to its merits or weakness except looking to people that had / have first hand experience. My direct experience is in the accuracy department and shooting DCM service rifle matches. The .30 caliber is more difficult to master and fire accurately across the course.
You do not have the luxury of many low drag , high BC smaller caliber bullets so bad wind calls are unforgiving but its a challenge and fun to shoot.


I am a toolmaker by trade and precision & manufacturing is my day job. Gun-plumbing and wrenching on various firearm types is my hobby and personal interest.
The M1 / M14 / M1A is not a drop in fit instant gratification platform but it can be tuned to run very well. If you have to pay to have this done it will add up VERY quickly.


I am out of direct gas AR's and might spring for a POF .308 in the near future and see how it runs.
I like all firearms but some more than others.

 

[LRShooter101]

I don't watch TV for entertainment. I just find the M1A/AR-10 discussions and get schooled in comedy, mathematics, logic, and general insults. Seriously I laugh at something new in this thread daily.

Unfortunately I think that you hit it on the head, hopefully the "Value" in this topic is not lost among all of the other "colorful content".

I jumped in this thread in the hopes that it will ultimately, in a round about way, make my life easier.

On the weekends, I teach precision long range shooting to civilians. This can be hunters, target shooters, or just shooters with an interest. Unfortunately many of them spend hours on the internet "getting educated" prior to coming to class. When they show up for class, I have the distinct displeasure of having to deal with the results of that "education". This can include the rifle and equipment, and the long range shooting knowledge, they show up with. This topic grabbed my attention because I just had a student show up to a class with an M1A rifle, and it turned out to be the "class from hell". Very long story short, the student spent the first part of class telling everyone about his "Superior Spec Ops Sniper Rifle", and about how the SEALs had used it to kill the Somalia Pirates. When I got into talking about the various rifles in the class and the Pros & Cons of each one, all I heard was that his rifle had no Cons, and I was not really up to speed on everything. When it came to the actual shooting portion, the student and rifle were both a soup sandwich. Finally after looking like a complete idiot in front of the other shooters, the student started working with me, and we were ultimately able to make some progress. Much to my surprise, the student came up after class was over, and admitted that his "Superior Spec Ops Sniper Rifle" was going to take some work.

I wish that was the first, and only time, that I was going to deal with something like that, but the obvious reality will be far from it.

While I can appreciate individuals like the student above will probably not bother to read or take anything away from a topic like this, if at least one or two do, then my time and effort were not a complete loss.

It is obviously not my place to try and tell anyone what they should or should not own or shoot, to each their own. I am just trying to make sure that all sides of the story are put out there, the Pros & Cons are covered, so that if someone wants to try and make an informed decision they have some good factual information to do it with.

I am probably just being to optimistic that there is some value in this effort, but what hell, you can only try and hope!

 

[LRShooter101]

Well said no disagreement with anything ~
. . . . . . .

I am a toolmaker by trade and precision & manufacturing is my day job. Gun-plumbing and wrenching on various firearm types is my hobby and personal interest.
. . . . . . .

I am out of direct gas AR's and might spring for a POF .308 in the near future and see how it runs. I like all firearms but some more than others.

Hopefully it all works out in the wash, as much as a lot of people don't care for it, paragraphs and pages of debate usually have more value than a bunch of single line responses!

I am hoping that when I grow up that I will be a Machinist, so that I can actually work on all of the things that I shoot, but I am pretty sure that I am out of time. Given I have to pay for my Gunsmithing, I tend to stick with the KISS principle when it comes to what I shoot, in the hopes that it will limit the amount of work needed to keep everything running consistently and accurately. There is a good reason why I still shoot Bolt Rifles a large percentage of the time!

My AR collection is currently 50/50 DI & Piston. At some point in the near future it will probably be 100% piston, but I am waiting on the design options to increase and improve before I sink all of my money into them. Also hopefully as the competition increase in the Piston Market among the manufacturers it will help to drive prices down.

I still amazes me when I think about starting in the Military with an M16A1 and a M21, and then looking at what is out there today. Choices are a good thing, but ultimately only if you truly understand what you are getting into with them.

 

[BCP]

The M1 / M14 / M1A is not a drop in fit instant gratification platform

Yeah I'm learning that a dollar at a time.

The POF rifles are nice I'd like to get one if/when I get out of CA. Now that all new firearms purchases will be registered for life I am not buying anything that is ban-material. I don't trust those fuckers in Sacramento.

 

[Smcarroll]

What I learned from this thread. Mechanically inclined people like the m1a, trigger jocks want something that shoots out of the box and engineers want swords and big green dildos.

 

[EricCartmann]

I don't watch TV for entertainment. I just find the M1A/AR-10 discussions and get schooled in comedy, mathematics, logic, and general insults. Seriously I laugh at something new in this thread daily.

love is very passionate. if someone insulted your woman and pointed out that she is lacking, how would you handle it? would you say accept that she is lacking? or would you hand out personal insults? I think the latter is the option most people would choose.

 

[EricCartmann]

What I learned from this thread. Mechanically inclined people like the m1a, trigger jocks want something that shoots out of the box and engineers want swords and big green dildos.

Engineers knows LOGIC. Engineering is 100% LOGIC. The reason why most Americans suck at Engineering is because they don't posses any kind of logic what's so ever.

What is wrong with liking swords and "dildos"?

so by liking the M1A ones becomes more mechanically inclined?

Please discuss...

 

[svxwilson]

love is very passionate. if someone insulted your woman and pointed out that she is lacking, how would you handle it? would you say accept that she is lacking? or would you hand out personal insults? I think the latter is the option most people would choose.

I am a gun enthusiast. Although I can not compare the "Love" I have for guns to the love I have for items that CAN NOT be replaced by another simple purchase (wife, girlfriend, dog, cat, family, friends) . So unfortunately I do not think your comparison has much merit to someone with Logic (love for wife vs love for gun) I was just poking fun at the people who get all huffy and puffy over the subject. I have actually enjoyed reading the facts at hand throughout this thread. But after reading this whole thing my opinion has never wavered in fact it has gotten stronger.

I think if someone desires a M1A so be it. Bless them for keeping it in running condition. They are nostalgic beautiful pieces of working art. So is a 60's something corvette. A brand new 2014 corvette would walk circles around the old just stock. Sure you could put money into that old Vette to make it perform like the new but if you were to put the same amount of $ into the new Vette its a totally different ball game. The old one may even be more fun to drive for various reasons but when it comes down to the numbers and real world logic the old doesn't stand a chance on the track vs the new model.

In that scenario the old Vette is the easier one to work on. But the M1A/M14 is definitely harder and requires more skill and knowledge to work on. So for your everyday guy who wants the most reliable accurate option with the least amount of maintenance I think the option should be clear.

Not trying to ruffle feathers just stating it how I see it.

For the OP Buy both and let us know what one you feel is superior.

 

[Ireight]

WOW, what a thread.
My $.02 I'm giving for free. I like both the Ar style and m1a. I have 2 lwrci's in 5.56 and had as in just this week sold my DPMS Lr308ap4, I bought the Lr 308 when I literally had no other choice in a .308 cal rifle. Early this last week I ran across a deal on a M1A and jumped on it. 1st up for sale DPMS. Its not that it wasn't accurate (however a mid weight basic 16" barrel is not very accurate), its not that it was to heavy. It came down to I hate getting the puff of gas from the charging handle area. I run my auto guns on the wet side, so that first round I also get a face full of oil. Not my taste. I don't have that issue with my M1A. I personally think a M1A is easier to clean but to each his own. Both of mine are/were quick pointing, minute of man accurate but I prefer the m1a socom. Post #186 LrShooter very wise.
What I really think is funny is there is an engineer here who thinks he's logical and he's the only one here. I've spent the last 12 years in construction, have dealt with hundreds of engineers, and I can say without a doubt that out of all of the ones I've dealt with only one whom has what would be considered logic, and common sense. I'm pretty sure engineers are trained in college to loose the forest behind the trees. Engineering once used logic, now days engineering is cut and paste. If its not in a book or in the specs it doesn't work, Ha.

 

[cal50]

SOME engineers use logic while many others are clueless.
I have seen it more then once when a design fails the engineer/s involved take it personally and then have a vendetta of sorts "to make it work".

When something is taken or made personal objectivity is usually lost.


After working with various engineers and management people over the years there is lots of truth in the pic below......

 

[EricCartmann]

I am a gun enthusiast. Although I can not compare the "Love" I have for guns to the love I have for items that CAN NOT be replaced by another simple purchase (wife, girlfriend, dog, cat, family, friends) . So unfortunately I do not think your comparison has much merit to someone with Logic (love for wife vs love for gun) I was just poking fun at the people who get all huffy and puffy over the subject. I have actually enjoyed reading the facts at hand throughout this thread. But after reading this whole thing my opinion has never wavered in fact it has gotten stronger.

I think if someone desires a M1A so be it. Bless them for keeping it in running condition. They are nostalgic beautiful pieces of working art. So is a 60's something corvette. A brand new 2014 corvette would walk circles around the old just stock. Sure you could put money into that old Vette to make it perform like the new but if you were to put the same amount of $ into the new Vette its a totally different ball game. The old one may even be more fun to drive for various reasons but when it comes down to the numbers and real world logic the old doesn't stand a chance on the track vs the new model.

In that scenario the old Vette is the easier one to work on. But the M1A/M14 is definitely harder and requires more skill and knowledge to work on. So for your everyday guy who wants the most reliable accurate option with the least amount of maintenance I think the option should be clear.

Not trying to ruffle feathers just stating it how I see it.

For the OP Buy both and let us know what one you feel is superior.

I am a EE, I know logic. Real Boolean Mathematic Logic is one thing, and in math, when rules and laws are made, the mathematical laws are true throughout the universe. The assumption you are making here is you are assuming YOUR own law (aka your own personal views), follows with everyone else. Your "logic", which is not even really LOGIC at all, it is your personal opinion, it says you can't replace dog love with gun love. Which may be true for you, but it is not true for all. Some people do love their possessions more than their dogs.

I agree everything you said about the M1A. Right now I am down to only one M14 type, to me the M14 in wood stock with iron sites is the best M14 set up. I love how well balanced this set up is, that is until I shoot my Garand... when I shoot my Garand, that makes me really realize how unbalanced the M14 is. Also the Garand has way more Nastalgia and much better art than the M14. So in in the Nostalgia and Art part, the M14 loses.

The M14 is really a loser all the way around when you look at it.

 

[EricCartmann]

SOME engineers use logic while many others are clueless.
I have seen it more then once when a design fails the engineer/s involved take it personally and then have a vendetta of sorts "to make it work".

When something is taken or made personal objectivity is usually lost.


After working with various engineers and management people over the years there is lots of truth in the pic below......

The Problem there is there are not enough Engineers in that picture.

The Programmers picture is only half right wrong. The reason the Programmers designed the swing that way is because Mgmt determines the components and parts they will use, so the Programmers make due with the best with what is given to them.

 

[EricCartmann]

awww man! no new post to this thread? This is the only thread I am watching on SnipersHide now. Now I am going to be bored the rest of the day :-(

 

[LRShooter101]

OK, I will keep it going,

So that I can share the information with the students in my classes, would someone care to share your cleaning routine for your M1A?

Given it basically has to be cleaned from the muzzle end, are you just using a rod and cleaning it in that manner, or are you using a "pull through" system and cleaning it from the breech end?

Also how are you handling the issue of cleaning/maintaining the gas system?

I fought like hell with my M1A rifles, while I could get them clean, it was a major undertaking.

I am sure I probably cleaned them more than I really needed to, but given that I was attempting to use it as a "precision rifle" and not a "battle rifle", I did not want to compromise the accuracy/performance due to fouling.

Needless to say, I am good on the fundamentals of rifle cleaning, I am looking for whatever you are doing to deal with idiosyncrasies that are unique to the M1A platform?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Badshot308]

I use one of these in my M1A loaded M14/M1A BORE GUIDE | Brownells and a Dewey coated rod.

 

[EricCartmann]

OK, I will keep it going,

So that I can share the information with the students in my classes, would someone care to share your cleaning routine for your M1A?

Given it basically has to be cleaned from the muzzle end, are you just using a rod and cleaning it in that manner, or are you using a "pull through" system and cleaning it from the breech end?

Also how are you handling the issue of cleaning/maintaining the gas system?

I fought like hell with my M1A rifles, while I could get them clean, it was a major undertaking.

I am sure I probably cleaned them more than I really needed to, but given that I was attempting to use it as a "precision rifle" and not a "battle rifle", I did not want to compromise the accuracy/performance due to fouling.

Needless to say, I am good on the fundamentals of rifle cleaning, I am looking for whatever you are doing to deal with idiosyncrasies that are unique to the M1A platform?

Thanks in advance.

That is FULL RETARD stuff right there. Not your post, the FULL RETARD is the way you clean an M14. Can't even get good leverage to clean the barrel and chamber, and you can't swab/brush chamber to bore.