Ok, so really - ES/SD with Hornady brass?

[DownhillFromHere]

Does anyone accomplish these single-digit ES/SD values I read about here using Hornady brass? Prime brass?

I've been reloading / handloading for 50+ years so I have a good grounding, but I've only been loading 6.5CM for a few months after a couple of decades' hiatus from bottleneck rifle. I'm using RCSB match dies on a Dillon 550 press, Sinclair mandrel for expanding after FL resize. Scale is an ancient RCBS beam scale with weights verified via check weights - it's consistent and accurate to under 0.1 grain. Trimming to 1.191" and chamfering with an equally ancient Forster trimmer and 3-in-1 head powered with a hand drill. Annealing via Anneal-eez. Rifle has a definite preference for Hornady 147 ELD-M factory ammo so I've been using that bullet with H4350 (41.3 grains gives 2799fps at best node so far). Seating depth trials between 0.015 and 0.030" off the lands. Concentricity is 0.002" or so. I'm getting 3/8-1/2" groups @100. Sometimes better, almost never worse.

My first few 5-shot strings did give single-digit spreads and deviations as I worked on OCW workup. The frustration is that after a few hundred rounds with both Hornady and Prime/Norma brass, the overall averages are 25-30 ES and SD of 9-11. Consistently ho-hum, about what I see with factory rounds.

Is this about what I can expect with cheaper brass? I'm going to try Lapua brass in the near future, but I have several hundred pieces of once-fired Hornady and Prime brass I'd like to use to its best capability.

 

[Supersubes]

Just shoot it! You’re doing fine.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Just shoot it! You’re doing fine.

That's what I figured. I keep a spreadsheet of all the permutations of powder charge and such... yeah, my best 5-shot ES is 3; I've had a 4-shot ES of 1 and 3-shot spread of 0. But over hundreds of shots, even at "optimal" node, spread is higher. I have a buddy who watched a guy dump a couple dozen pieces of once-fired Lapua brass into the range bucket; he brass-buzzarded it and wants me to try it. We'll see.

I knew when I jumped into the handloading rabbit hole I would have to strongly resist the urge to chase the futile goal of perfection....

 

[garandman]

Last range trip.... 6.5CM.... Hornady brass... 6 fps SD....

 

[Lunchbox27]

I just chrono’d a new load last weekend.

Hornady brass
140 ELD-M
CCI200
RL16

7.8 for 6 shots (SD).

As SuperSubes said, you are doing fine.

I have loaded close to 2k 6.5 rounds in Hornady brass. Yes, there are FAR better options. I have 2 boxes of Alpha that I have yet to play with because my supply of Hornady is still working.

 

[ditter]

I load 6.5 CM with 41.6 and 42.5 grains of H4350 and 140 ELD or Berger 140 bullets in RPR

I started reloading with Hornady brass kept from factory rounds. I then "splurged" and bought 100 pieces of Lapua. For me, there is a noticeable difference in SD and ES within the same exact loads, across most brands of bullets. It's just better brass in my opinion. I also got 250 pieces of Norma brass and that shoots better also. I'm using the Hornady pretty much for foulers and warm-up shots.

If you don't want to spend 125 bucks on box of Lapua brass, then just buy a box of Berger factory ammo. That factory ammo uses Lapua brass which you can save and reload. I bought a box, took all the measurements of an unfired round and I just match that same round for my reloads. I've shot .25 MOA all the way to 300 yards with that combo.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Thanks all. In working with my scale loading rounds for this weekend's match, I have found that I can induce a 2-6 kernel variance depending on how fast or slow I trickle the charge up to desired weight. The whole notion of OCW is to mitigate such variations; still, I don't know if this is enough to cause a 25-30 fps (very occasionally more) spread.

With that said, I was on the range Monday with a buddy trying out Hornady A-tips in his 6CM and he was getting those low spreads with Hornady brass right out of the gate- brand new loads, across his OCW weights.

So... I'm going to try the Lapua brass assuming I survive Saturday's heat and humidity high enough to wilt a chain-link fence. And I hear, way too loud, the siren song of an fx-120 scale. Argh. I knew this would happen... "good enough" isn't good enough.

 

[SWgeezer]

The scale could be your missing link

 

[65shootmoor]

If the issue is brass, you don't have to go nuts over the expensive options. Try Starline, either their small or large primer options. I've got the small primer and regularly get S.D.'s under 5, my last load with A-Tips had a 1.1. Starline is half the cost of Alpha and Peterson.

 

[morganlamprecht]

If you really want to get anal and squeeze the numbers...

The 5.2 and 5.3 is primer weights...note the difference in average velocities

This was in a 308 w/ lapua brass

Did the same test in 6 Creed a while back and the average velocity delta between 5.2 and 5.3 was 12 fps

 

[65shootmoor]

If you really want to get anal and squeeze the numbers...

View attachment 7113339

View attachment 7113341

The 5.2 and 5.3 is primer weights...note the difference in average velocities

This was in a 308 w/ lapua brass

Did the same test in 6 Creed a while back and the average velocity delta between 5.2 and 5.3 was 12 fps

I'm just nutty enough to try this out...

 

[Expert684]

Make sure all of your Hornady brass weighs the same (same volume). Mine would shoot lights out one time then crap the next. I wet tumble, anneal, size and trim every time. I figured it out after I weighed them. Weight sorted and the problem went away.
I bought Peterson brass and they are spot on! But weigh much more! Hornady brass: load is 41.5-H4350, 140 ELDM, Peterson brass load is 40.6- H4350, 140 ELDM. They weigh 30 grains more per case, but all weigh the same.
Still figuring out which way I want to go?

 

[Dooby]

41.3gr H4350 Remington 700 22" bbl
3X-Fired
I cannot for the life of me get lower ES, but the SD's are pretty good.

I also tried ADG 6.5CM brass on another rifle. Seems like the Norma is actually better...at least for 6.5CM.

My ADG Brass for 6.5 PRC on the other hand is consistently single digit SD no matter the loads I've tried. although accuracy is another story.

Norma Brass 10-shot string:

Stats - Average	2645.46
Stats - Highest	2654.11
Stats - Lowest	2633.64
Stats - Ext. Spread	20.47
Stats - Std. Dev	6.32
Shot ID	V0
1	2645
2	2643
3	2645
4	2647
5	2639
6	2653
7	2651
8	2654
9	2644
10	2634

Norma Brass 40-shots:

Stats - Average	2620.35
Stats - Highest	2647.85
Stats - Lowest	2575.93
Stats - Ext. Spread	71.92
Stats - Std. Dev	12.58
Shot ID	V0
1	2617
2	2626
3	2608
4	2607
5	2623
6	2607
7	2607
8	2608
9	2624
10	2615
11	2610
12	2638
13	2641
14	2648
15	2576
16	2616
17	2640
18	2611
19	2629
20	2628
21	2612
22	2627
23	2621
24	2613
25	2606
26	2627
27	2625
28	2610
29	2634
30	2620
31	2626
32	2624
33	2634
34	2626
35	2622
36	2627
37	2620
38	2622
39	2622
40	2619

 

[Steel head]

I like hearing good things about ADG brass.
Bought some for a 7SAUM barrel on order.

This is my current 260 using Winchester 243 brass necked up with R16 and 147’s

 

[JMGlasgow]

I used to run Hornady brass, it was pretty good the first few firings and then my groups opened up, SD's increased, and I started getting random fliers. I've weighed Hornady brass and found 20 grain swings in weight. I switched to premium brass and I haven't looked back.

 

[Jack's Dad]

I've never had numbers problems with Hornady brass. Maybe annealing every so often to keep neck tension uniform?

 

[RadKad]

I purchased a fx-120 and I love it. I would recommend that scale to anyone reloading. Very fast and accurate. My other scales would "float" - I would weigh a charge, remove it then put it back on and it would be .1 lower or higher. Not the 120, same every time.

 

[_Raining]

I use Lapua Brass but have found that sometimes I just can't get great SD's with a specific powder.

R15 was a no go for my 308, lowest I was getting was around 12 SD (This was measured with an Entris 64-1s). I switched to N150 and SD's during load Dev was between 3 and 9, charges were thrown with a chargemaster.

Similar thing with 6.5 Creedmoor. Started with RL16 and load dev SD's were all single digit. After I settled on a load I shot 10x10 groups and the min was 2.X and the max was 6.X avg around 4.5 for all 10 groups. I switched to H4350 and most of the loads were high single digit to low teens, it only dropped down to mid/low single digit at the higher end of the powder weight.

Sometimes the rifle just doesn't like a certain powder. I assume the same can happen with bullets but I have stuck with the same bullet through the life of the 6.5 Creed barrel and the 308 has only seen 175 TMK's so far.

 

[Bandit320]

What would be considered a ranking, i now, personal opinion, of premium brass. I’ve been using Hornady with my 300WM, but I’ve seen Nosler and Norma brass locally. Are they a worthwhile step up? If not, what would be.

Thanks, Mike

 

[NamibHunter]

Interesting thread. My take is that: Unless you are a bench rest shooter with a tight neck chamber and meticulously neck turned and “tuned” brass, and typically shooting lighter flat based bullets, you will not routinely get ES below 10 fps on a large sample (>50 shots). Or get groups routinely in the ones (<0.19”). The best BR guys achieve that, but that takes a level of OCD that is not practical for somebody that actually likes to shoot a few thousand rounds a year. But you can get lucky on small samples (like 5).

I load for a semi-custom 30” 6.5 Creedmoor with a Shilen Select Match barrel. It had a mirror finish when i bore scoped it before installing. Superb workmanship, and very little copper fouling observed. No green residue after 3-4 patches. So i cannot blame my barrel. Rifle will shoot 0.35” to 0.55” three shot groups, and 0.45” to 0.65” five shot groups, and some of that is me, the wind, and breaking position to single feed the rather long hand loaded ammo that will not fit in the magazine. Yes, with the occasional 1/4” group thrown in. Luck, probably. The one group you photograph and post for all to see. ? And 0.6” is good enough for my purpose (600 yard steel targets).

I use 140 Berger Hybrids and Lapua SRP brass, and have a nice node around 2760 fps using H4350. I realize this is somewhat slow for a 30” barrel, but it is the second highest node and i hope will give me better barrel life! I can get almost 3000 fps with RL-17, but i wonder about throat erosion... Bullets are seated long (10 thou jump) using a Wilson hand die with an arbor press, and concentricity / bullet runout is usually between 0.0005” (0.5 thou) and 0.0015” (1.5 thou). Occasional 2.5 thou is set aside. During load development (5 shot groups), i would get SDs in the 3-15 fps range. Have (only once) seen a 1.1. Luck, I’m sure. Best SDs are usually found in the node where positive compensation also appears. Maybe optimal barrel time is a real thing... ? But if i shoot a box of 50, all loaded the same charge on an FX120i, so loaded to the single kernel (tweezer in hand, with my OCD kicking in), i will see SDs in the 5-9 range. Very happy with that, actually. But ES will almost always be in the 25 to 35 fps range, often because of two or three “outliers”, which is disappointing as these will sometimes causes misses at 600 yards.

I clean the barrel as infrequently as i can: About every 300 rounds.

What i have noticed is that a hot barrel (120 Deg F) can push the speed up by 15 to 25 fps. Read a scientific study somewhere that even though powders like H4350 are partially temperature stabilized, the primer material is not at all temperature insensitive. (Have a temperature strip glued to the barrel and will stop shooting when it exceeds 120 F.). And primers vary quite a bit. If i delete the worst three or five outliers from the LabRadar, SD comes down to the 2-7 range. I believe some of my outliers and the cause of the higher than desired ES is getting in a hurry and heating up the barrel. The inevitable breaks for target changes at a public range also cause the barrel to cool down to ambient temp, and is possibly another cause for speed variation.

Also been reading the latest Bryan Litz book, and he found clear evidence (and published the data) that his barrels sped up for the first 25 round after barrel cleaning, so firing 2 or 3 “foulers” are not really enough. (He initially thought that was caused by the necks getting work hardened which could increase effective neck tension/unseating force; but that was proven wrong, and annealing did not help much - a real surprise.) So a recently cleaned barrel and the slow rate of fouling is another source of speed variation. Part of the reason that i like shooting with a dirty barrel. Btw: My first shot is often an outlier, usually 20-30 slower than the average for the batch. Any idea why?

So two questions:

1) How do you guys get ES below 20 fps? And is that typical or not?

2) Why is the first shot almost always slower?

Keen to learn something new!

 

[Jamesl0822]

I’m so glad that I read this thread. I’ve been down the rabbit hole all damn week trying to get my load development right for this hornady brass.
I’m pretty spoiled bc I’m accustomed to shooting small groups with 140 gr ELD-M’s in my 6.5 @2823 with h4350 in Lapua brass and 6fps or less SD’s usually. My gun just does not like that same load in hornady brass (yes same brass prep,seating depth, coal etc). I decided to load about 400 rds in some hornady brass bc I have a prairie dog hunt coming but figured hell I’m decent at load development… I’ll just work out a load separately for this hornady brass it will be fun and I won’t need to buy any more lapua brass (I’m somehow down to only 110 pieces after my wife “straightened up” my gun room)… Um this turned out to be not fun at all!!!
I was hoping that speed would be a sweet spot and it is but my SD’s are 11-13 ish on average. Group size has been decent (not great) right around .6-.7 moa from 100 out to 400. But I could not find a load that consistently shot single digits SD’s.

Long story short, I went on a 120 round goose chase then decided to just settle…. I’m over it

 

[Hawk in WY]

Make sure all of your Hornady brass weighs the same (same volume). Mine would shoot lights out one time then crap the next. I wet tumble, anneal, size and trim every time. I figured it out after I weighed them. Weight sorted and the problem went away.
I bought Peterson brass and they are spot on! But weigh much more! Hornady brass: load is 41.5-H4350, 140 ELDM, Peterson brass load is 40.6- H4350, 140 ELDM. They weigh 30 grains more per case, but all weigh the same.
Still figuring out which way I want to go?

This.

SD was cut in half when I sized, trimmed, and weight sorted.

Weight does not correlate perfectly with volume, but it’s good enough.

Better brass is a better solution, but weight sorting Hornady is a close second.

 

[tinker]

I didn't know hornady brass was that bad and bought about 500-600 pieces of brand new brass a few years back. I just now got around to loading it a few months ago and first firing it was decent with regard to SD/ES. Second firing....big difference in a BAD way.

Just ordered some Alpha to try to see it if helps.

 

[diggler1833]

* I realize I'm including other variables like charge weight consistency*

I've now shot 2 boxes of 140gr ELD-M (6.5 CM) ammo through my factory AI AT-X barrel.

First box (a year ago) threw a 2,671 / 102 ES / 44 SD when I put it over a chronograph. Oof. It did however average 2/3 MOA for the 4x5 shot groups as I was breaking in the barrel.

Yesterday I chronographed a second box, just to use it up as it was collecting dust. I only chronographed two groups (5 and 8 rounds), but the ES on the five shots was 90, and it was 81 on the 8 shot group.

First group of the day yesterday was pretty impressive for a factory load. I followed that up with a piss poor group that was almost a half-minute larger, and then the third group of 8 shots was in the middle. No wonder those guys are always harping on sample size with velocities like that. . For the record though, average group size was back around 2/3 MOA again. As a hobbiest, I am no pro...but I reload as a passion, and my spreads from one group size to the next are usually within .100", not double the size.

I've got 30 pieces of their 6.5 CM brass now (no idea what happened to 10 of them). I think that will be enough for me to do a decent test ot two on their brass consistency in various areas, which I plan on doing in the very near future. I've got some Lapua and Starline brass tests to run the results up against.

Target was shot R to L.

 

[diggler1833]

Out of curiosity, I just did an H2O capacity on (20) Hornady 6.5CM cases, and (10 - I got lazy) .300WM cases.

The case capacity for the Hornady 6.5CM had one outlier. It wasn't massively out, but it did double the ES. I will include both just in case I made some sort of error, I really don't think that I did though.

20 cases ES - 1.5gr / SD - .301gr
*19 case ES - .6gr / SD - .146gr

^^ Minus the one outlier, the .6gr ES and SD are pretty solid numbers. For comparison, I've done (20) Lapua 6.5x47 cases and had an ES of .3gr / SD of .105.

I also did (20) Starline 6.5CM cases a while ago. ES was .4 and SD was .158. I've been a pretty big Starline fan (for budget brass) since then, and have had similar results in both 6.5 Grendel and .223. The downside is that case capacity is low, and I can't vouch for how well the primer pockets hold up.

****************

For my test today in .300WM ES - .8gr / SD - .224 with the 10 Hornady cases.

****************

I think that it is safe to conclude that my wild ES and SDs for the last two boxes of 140 ELD-M are NOT due to case capacity. I'll deprime them soon and check primer pockets and neck wall thickness concentricity.