Old thread reposted from RFC. This one is "Cleaning and Accuracy Experiment"

[Kisssofdeath]

This original thread was posted on 4/4/19. At the time there was a lot of talk about break in periods after cleaning and cold bore flyers and such. Everyone kept saying this or that so I thought I would do a little test. The following was that test and the results.

After 2,520 rounds (yes, I am keeping count) I believe I am finally seeing a decrease in accuracy with my 1710 XLR. One thing I did not keep track of was how often I cleaned the barrel between shooting sessions. Also, sometimes I would run a boresnake through the barrel. Boresnake used was new and only used with this rifle. Up until now my cleaning regime with this rifle has been the following.

1. One Wet patch.
2. 20 strokes with a nylon brush.
3. Two wet patches.
4. One dry patch.
5. Inspect with borescope. Repeat if not satisfied.

Carbon ring is treated separate. I use JB and VFG felt pellets to remove the carbon ring. JB may touch the rifling but doesn't go in the bore.

I used to be able to shoot 10 for 10, 1/2" groups or less, mostly less all day every day. Here are the last four targets shot with four different ammo on two different days.

I didn't think to take borescope photos before cleaning but here is what it looks like now and the cleaning method I used. This is the first time this bore has seen a bronze brush or JB.

Method...

1. Run 2 wet patches with 50/50 kroil and shooters choice MC#7.
2. Use bronze brush, make 10 strokes.
3. Run 2 wet patches.
4. Run 1 Dry and inspect with borescope.
5. Use JB and VFG felt pellets to remove carbon ring.
6. Inspect for carbon ring.
7. Use JB and VFG felt pellets and clean bore 15 strokes.
8. Repeat step 7.
9. Run 2 wet patches.
10. Run 1 dry patch.
11. Inspect with borescope.
12. Remove excess JB from chamber entrance.
13. Run 1 wet patch.
14. Use bronze brush, make 15 strokes.
15. As many wet patches to get a clean one.
16. Run 2 dry patches.
17. Inspect with borescope.

Here are the results.

Looked almost as new after I was finished. Not a blemish anywhere.

First opportunity I get (hopefully tomorrow) I will shoot and record the very first shot after cleaning and record the group sequence to see how a cleaning like this will effect group size in the beginning and see if group size increases or decreases as the rifle is shot. I know there has been a lot of talk about seasoning the bore and such before good groups are attainable so I want to find out what happens with my 1710 XLR shooting 50 to 150 rounds of Center-X. What I have here is a basic production gun, not a full blown custom bench rest rig. So I am not considering a cleaning method for a custom gun. I don't run dry patches, I don't clean after 25-75 or whatever rounds, I push and pull my brush both ways, I use JB bore cleaner, I use a boresnake, I probably do several things a bench rest guy would never do and that's fine.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Here are the test results. The date of the original post was 4/6/19.

Ok, here is the follow up. First off, the borescope photos didn't really turn out good but as you can see the first photo has a slight carbon ring building up. The rest are just random photos at different places in the barrel. Still pretty shiny I think for 300 rounds. The second photo is a reflection, camera angle issue. I also shot with my Atlas bipods first and then shot using my BR Rock rest. Never shot groups on the same day with same ammo but using both methods. It appears the BR Rock rest has a slight advantage. The reason for that is on this particular rifle I get a lot of heartbeat feedback through my cheek that transmits to the stock and causes a slight pulse in the x-hairs. I have played with different shoulder stock positions but can't really get rid of it. Any suggestions are appreciated.

First off, borescope photos after 300 rounds.

Here are the two setups I used.

Since I can only post 10 photos I will continue in another reply.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Beginning of test.

First shot. Rifle was zeroed for Center-X. Shot was not far away from the other 4.

First 5 shot group. No break in period needed. After all that cleaning.

Groups, interesting fact, I didn't adjust the scope but the groups moved over on their own.

Final thoughts. Some of the bad shots I am sure was me, especially on the bipod groups. Some groups was a total Cluster (sdfs) such as groups 4, 7 and 10 with CCI using the BR Rest . According the other groups on that target those bad groups tell me I just didn't shoot well. Not sure what else to think.

The order these targets were shot in was top to bottom with the bipod then top to bottom with the BR Rock rest. So, first shot with Center-X was out, which is understandable. Not only the first shot but the first FIVE with Pistol King is crappy. CCI, first shot is actually the bottom right group that is 3/8", wasn't paying attention when I was identifying the target.

Next, going from CCI back to Center-X with the BR Rock rest, all shots really continued as if I never shot the Pistol Match or the CCI. Next going from Center-X to Pistol King, nothing changed, no 1st round flyers or such. Last group, CCI first group didn't do well.

Conclusion, even after a heavy cleaning as described in my first post, this Anschutz 1710 XLR doesn't need a break in period to start shooting great. After the cleaning I see tighter groups with the Center-X and Pistol King. To be honest, this is not the first time this has happened. I have seen this type of result with other rifles. This time I saw a need for a good cleaning and thought I would document the process. The results to me are not all that surprising. Although I am disappointed in CCI SV and kind of a sore spot left because I didn't really get a good ten for ten 1/2" groups. But, still happy with the outcome because I know the bad shots were me.

Others' thoughts and comments are welcome.

 

[Near miss]

I thought to add this picture of a post where a member of accuratereloading website had gathered some clean/cold bore shot info.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

That is pretty good information you shared. I would agree with it too because if any of my first shots are off they are always high and mine seem to be to the left but that just the barrel difference.

 

[Near miss]

Thanks. And yes, with all the differences between barrels, there seems to be some standard with cold clean bore shots.

You can also see in the graphs that the second shot is somewhat slower than average. So fast-slow and then normal.

In reality it does not really matter, with 22LR you can just waste one (or 2). But my mission to get them all in to the same group. The goal is in the distance.. Looks like 0.2mil up but needs much more testing.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

If you have a rifle with a consistent cold bore/first shot flyer, I don't think you will ever cure it. I don't have a gun like that but if I did I'd live with it or sell/trade it. I do have guns at random that will do this but that's just it, it's random.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Coincidentally, I got into a brief but similar discussion at the range a couple of weeks ago. I had drilled a cleaning port in the back of my 10/22 action so I could clean the bore from breach to muzzle like I would any other rifle. It'd been probably about a year or so since I'd cleaned the bore last so I figured it was a good idea.

So, I'm at the range and I'd just shot 40 rounds when one of the RO's walks up and makes some small talk about the rifle. I told him that I'd had the action out of the stock to drill a cleaning port in the back of the action and clean the barrel, but surprisingly after all of that the zero is still dead on. He gets this goofy grin on his face and makes this exaggerated head shaking motion before he said you should never clean a .22 barrel. I just look at him and say ok and he proceeds to tell me that cleaning the barrel will ruin the accuracy and one guy at the range told him it'd take 200-300 rounds to get the accuracy back. I tell him that hasn't been my experience because the first 10 rounds out of the clean bore at 50 yards was just a large ragged hole, ended up being a .68" group. After he left I shot 7 5-shot groups that had an aggregate average group size of .59", smallest group being .37" biggest one being .81".

So to summarize, I have seen no ill effects from cleaning my 10/22 barrel.

 

[antithesis]

I cleaned my crap until it shined. It is a waste of time and accuracy.

Even the best barrels have small voids that need to be filled. The only way these get filled is by taking stuff off the bullet. When you remove that skim coat from the barrel you are taking more off the next X number of bullets. Remember, a bullet diameter is LARGER than the barrel. It gets squished as it enters and pops out the other end like a cork from a champagne bottle. Doing that through a barrel that is not hungry to fill voids results in a cleaner bullet out the muzzle. You should care about what the bullet looks like, not the barrel.

Unless something bad happens, the only time you should be getting a barrel that clean is never. Even when your accuracy dips you should only be trying to remove carbon, never intentionally targeting copper. Wet and dry patches using something like standard Hoppe's. No brushes, no bore paste. Chambers can be cleaned without cleaning the barrel.

As for 22's, the guy at the range is correct. 22 LR lays down wax as it passes through the barrel. When it has enough wax it pushes that wax out of the barrel. The wax is the reason it takes a cold 22 more shots to tighten up than a cold center fire - the wax is melting.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Well, just got back in from shooting 220 rounds out of my 52B Repro. Taking a little break ATM.

Trigger Monkey, you are spot on. Cleaning a 22 will not hurt accuracy whatsoever. I have already done the testing and proved it to myself.

antithesis, have you ever cleaned a 22 barrel?

 

[antithesis]

Well, just got back in from shooting 220 rounds out of my 52B Repro. Taking a little break ATM.

Trigger Monkey, you are spot on. Cleaning a 22 will not hurt accuracy whatsoever. I have already done the testing and proved it to myself.

antithesis, have you ever cleaned a 22 barrel?

Yes. If I use a 22 enough I clean it once each year since I only have semi autos - too hard to clean the action and not get crap in the barrel - else I pull a wet patch down it to keep it from getting crusty once in the year. If I shot a bolt action 22 all the time with match ammo I don't think I would ever clean the barrel unless I had sand/dirt blow in it.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Yes. If I use a 22 enough I clean it once each year since I only have semi autos - too hard to clean the action and not get crap in the barrel - else I pull a wet patch down it to keep it from getting crusty once in the year. If I shot a bolt action 22 all the time with match ammo I don't think I would ever clean the barrel unless I had sand/dirt blow in it.

Well that's alright then. I guy has to do what he has confidence in.

 

[Shooter_X]

As for 22's, the guy at the range is correct. 22 LR lays down wax as it passes through the barrel. When it has enough wax it pushes that wax out of the barrel. The wax is the reason it takes a cold 22 more shots to tighten up than a cold center fire - the wax is melting.

You say this like it's the gospel.
This principle has been parroted around Rimfire Feminist Central until the cows came home.
If you have a 22 that throws the first shot wild, then you have a problem.
I tried to tell them over on Feminist Central that the wax has 0 to do with your cold bore flier.
Nothing.
By the time the projectile exits the barrel, that wax is not wax anymore. It gets super heated and its chemical composition changes.
When is the last time you patched your barrel? Did that look like wax on the patch? Or melted wax? No?
As you stated , the projectile is larger in diameter than the bore. Even the wax on the lead bullet itself is stripped off by friction heat quicker than you can blink your right eye. As a result, the heat and fire that follows this stripped off wax turns it to a mess of powder residue soot known as fouling. Collect a mass of it and put a flame to it. If it turns to a Liquid like melted wax that you can make a candle out of , come back and tell me about it. Or I can save you the trouble and tell you it's not going to happen.

If I clean the barrel on My Vudoo v22, then put it on target at 50 yards using Eley match, or CenterX.......it will stack them like cardboard.
No fouling shots.......4 shots will follow the first shot like nobodies business. The gun has never shot a group larger than 1/2 inch, outside edge to outside edge, clean barrel , dirty barrel, hot, or cold. Fouled or not fouled.
Not all .22's throw the first shot. But a lot of them do.

Edit - Oh and start cleaning your bore more than once per year. The lead is a lubricant,,,,,,but all the crap that follows it is not. it gets mixed in with the lead streak in the lands and grooves and can become corrosive with any little bit of moisture and pit your bore. Not to mention, it will make your gun less accurate as this builds to the point of blowing tiny chunks of lead and debris out with the projectile. In turn this disrupts the projectile while it is still traveling the length of the bore, and upon exit. In other words, you want your champagne cork to blow out consistently.

T.S.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Ole, Shooter_X has a way with words don't he. I agree with everything he said.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

 

[antithesis]

You must go to an interesting church.

 

[brianf]

not picking sides but looking for info

for the guys that dont clean, do you see the dreaded carbon ring i have seen pics of

for the guys who do clean:

do you use a brush if so nylon or bronze/brass does the ring appear with either or both or not at all

if you only patch does the ring appear

has anyone paid attention to accuracy drop off once ring appears

 

[Kisssofdeath]

brianf,

I will try to answer your questions as well as my knowledge and personal experience will let me.

Most of my answers to your questions can be found above such as cleaning intervals and what brushes I use. As for the carbon ring, I do not know the exact round count it takes to develop, I would imagine that would depend on various factors and would vary the gun/ammo used. Having said that I have seen carbon start to build after 400 rounds in my Tikka's.

Accuracy wise, I don't know how much effect on accuracy the carbon ring plays. I do believe there are many more variables that could affect accuracy more than carbon rings. If someone said the carbon ring started at 500 rounds and started to negatively affect accuracy at 700 rounds, I would just say, "ok" whether I believed that or not.

I have only shot one gun out of all the ones I have "including pistols" that I can say the carbon ring caused and issue and it wasn't accuracy, it was extraction. I have a H&R Model M12 that if the carbon ring builds up it will not pull the hull out.

Another note, the nylon brush will never remove the carbon ring. A bronze brush will but it depends on the severity of the carbon ring and/or just how long do you want to clean. I have never had the patience to try and completely remove a carbon ring if the first 10 strokes didn't get it but the bore looked good. That's the time I call on JB bore paste just for the chamber. This is about the best I can do with not limited knowledge I have.

 

[brianf]

thanks a lot, great info

my gut tells me that i use a bronze brush for a few strokes every couple hundred rounds and im running the middle ground

 

[antithesis]

I use the Bore Tech Bolt Action cleaning tool on the chamber. The tool uses a wiper covered with a patch for the action, and bore mops for the chamber. I hit the chamber with the muzzle angled up and Hoppe's on the mop, followed by a dry mop, after shooting to fight back the carbon ring. If I don't get to it in time I use Wipe Out (the liquid form) on the mop and let it sit for a while.

 

[Shooter_X]

The mythical carbon ring, being responsible for damn near EVERYTHING , accuracy related, is the biggest piece of shit lie ever to be parroted by thousands of 22 rimfire wannabe experts.

The dreaded carbon ring is famous over on Rimfire Feminist Central. It causes everything you can shake a stick at.
It's even responsible for cold bore fliers. You have idiots over there scrubbing the chamber to different dimensions.

Here is what happens over there.
#1- My gun is not shooting as accurately as It should. My scope must be bad. I am going to buy a new scope.
#2 - Well it wasn't the scope.
#3 - I need a new barrel.
#4 - Now it shoots a little better but still not what I expect.
#5 - ( Some random expert/idiot) - It probably has a carbon ring. (Random posters numbers 2,3,4,5, and 6) - I has to be the carbon ring,,,,,no doubt it's the carbon ring........did you clean the carbon ring? I had a similar problem and it was a carbon ring. Yes I agree, it is probably a carbon ring.

OP - well I scrubbed and scrubbed the chamber and I dont see anything at all. But I'm still not shooting 2's.

Random expert idiots - you probably need a new barrel..........I recommend the one that I bought. Or maybe your scope is bad.

OP - I changed the scope already , my new one is brand new. Do you think I should try target ammunition?

Random experts - Yes! That is your problem!

OP- Ok I shot some Eley match today and the gun did much better but it's still not shooting consistent 2's

Random experts - Did you check for a carbon ring?

AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON.
Those people are stupid. Do not listen to them . I have never seen as many stupid people gathered in one place as Rimfire Feminist Central. Ever in my life.

As long as you keep your chamber reasonably clean and free of build up ( unlike a certain member posting to this thread) you will never have enough of a build up to adversely effect accuracy. Conversely, if you let it build up in the chamber to the point of having to cam your bolt down with a cheater pipe, or in the case of semi-autos, hammer it with a rubber mallet until it closes, then yes. It may be a problem. And yes, it's true . you can indeed clean the chamber without cleaning the bore......................BUT. Why would you do that.

If you have something built up in your chambers to the point of spreading a shotgun blast at 50 yards, what in the HELL do you think is in the bore of the barrel? Wax?

I see a certain someone here has learned nothing.

T.S.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Well said shooter-x, especially the part about RFC. And how dare someone speak up against the "clique". Seriously folks, it's that bad over there. You know what, I have shot a lot of different guns lately. I will take photos of the targets shot and the carbon ring condition and you can see just what effect the carbon ring must have played on accuracy. This is the shit I like doing. YOU actually do something and YOU see the results of that action. This is what I call first hand knowledge and is invaluable because it's not someone's brothers, cousins, uncle, dad's, brother's wife who past away 10 years ago said. Stay tuned grasshoppers, this will take some putting together.

 

[brianf]

whew...i thought i had it wrong all these years

 

[Near miss]

I also always clean the whole barrel. I do not clean the carbon ring with nylon but I have noticed soaking it with BoreTech or oils it softens.

I have been lately having problems with the shots wandering after ~150 rounds. Not sure where to look at.
-No, I have not bought a new scope or a barrel
Although after I read the rrdvegas pdf I cleaned the bore, removed the barrel and saw with my bare eyes that I too have small pores in the bore.
I had kept pretty good care of it but then fell to the "don't clean it crowd" for a while. I had a lilja/custom in my budget from the start but got pretty good accuracy from the factory barrel too so I skipped it. Luckily!

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Here are the photos of rifles, carbon ring and last group shot with that rifle. Personally this doesn't really prove anything except that my barrels have a carbon ring . The rifle shot is listed on the targets. They all have the ring and they all still shoot good. At least you know what the ring looks like in case you never seen on before. The photos are not attached in any particular order.

Trivia: The Winchester 52 is pre A and was made in 1927. Heaviest carbon ring build up is a tie between the 1710 XLR and the Tikka #2. Nether give me problems extracting. lightest ring is on the CZ 452 Varmint.

Bottom line, don't worry about the ring unless it bothers you then remove it. I clean mine on occasion.

 

[Near miss]

Thanks for the pictures. I am quite confused about a metal ring in my chamber. Do you have any experience of one of these?
It looks like 2 ring shapes embedded in to the chamber, next to each other.
One is clearly more visible than the other and I can feel it with a bronze pick.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

@ Near miss, I can't say that I have seen anything like that in any of my chambers. Maybe I do have them but the angle at which they are viewed causes them not to show up? I'll have to check mine and try to replicate that angle you are using.

What is the firearm that has those rings?

 

[Near miss]

Sako Quad.

 

[Shooter_X]

IT'S A CARBON RING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

T.S.

 

[Near miss]

I have soaked and cleaned the chamber for hours. I could not get it off.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

IT'S A CARBON RING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

T.S.

I agree, it can't be anything else. I'm curious about the ring lines shown.

 

[Shooter_X]

I agree, it can't be anything else. I'm curious about the ring lines shown.

No matter what it really is, if you go over the Rimfire Feminist Central..........It's a carbon ring.
It could be a turd stuck in there and it would be a carbon ring.

T.S.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

I have soaked and cleaned the chamber for hours. I could not get it off.

You can always invest in these. I'm sure it will remove the ring.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

No matter what it really is, if you go over the Rimfire Feminist Central..........It's a carbon ring.
It could be a turd stuck in there and it would be a carbon ring.

T.S.

LMAO you got that right.

 

[Hoser]

Thanks for the pictures. I am quite confused about a metal ring in my chamber. Do you have any experience of one of these?
It looks like 2 ring shapes embedded in to the chamber, next to each other.
One is clearly more visible than the other and I can feel it with a bronze pick.

It looks like an imperfection that was formed when the chamber was cut. As long as the rifle is accurate, feeds and extracts, it isnt a big deal.

 

[Near miss]

It looks like an imperfection that was formed when the chamber was cut. As long as the rifle is accurate, feeds and extracts, it isnt a big deal.

I was thinking this too as it is quite uniform all around it. The rifle is somewhat accurate but moody, it looks like the ring collects dirt easier. Maybe I should contact the resale about this.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Near miss, I don't see any rings like this in any of my rifles. You have something unique, maybe contact Beretta with this photo? IDK, just a suggestion.

 

[Shooter_X]

I was thinking this too as it is quite uniform all around it. The rifle is somewhat accurate but moody, it looks like the ring collects dirt easier. Maybe I should contact the resale about this.

Hint- It's most certainly not a carbon ring. I was being sarcastic. To remove that you would need to setback and re-chamber.

T.S.

 

[Near miss]

Hint- It's most certainly not a carbon ring. I was being sarcastic. To remove that you would need to setback and re-chamber.

T.S.

Thank you for correcting, I guess I was expecting people to call it carbon ring but hoping confirmation for chamber damage. I was thinking of using JB but the marks are deep enough that chamber dimensions will probably change a bit. You really can feel it with the pick.

@Kisssofdeath Yea, I will contact the resale first, could be that they can switch it for me right away and send this barrel onwards.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

@Kisssofdeath Yea, I will contact the resale first, could be that they can switch it for me right away and send this barrel onwards.

Ok, it was an add-on barrel bought later. 10-4 for straightening me out.

 

[ELR researcher]

You can always invest in these. I'm sure it will remove the ring.

I'm very new to RF shooting and am wondering why all the "mechanical" effort to remove a carbon ring. Seems a chamber mop and an appropriate-length soak with a carbon-removing chemical would be a lot easier and less time consuming. Please help me understand why that would not work just fine? BTW, is that ring (in an RF barrel) only in the chamber and throat area? Thanks.

Shooter-X - your posts really got me laughing. Thanks. BTW, I actually like RFC a lot - especially since they have a dedicated sub-forum for the rifle brand I'm interested in.

 

[Shooter_X]

I'm very new to RF shooting and am wondering why all the "mechanical" effort to remove a carbon ring. Seems a chamber mop and an appropriate-length soak with a carbon-removing chemical would be a lot easier and less time consuming. Please help me understand why that would not work just fine? BTW, is that ring (in an RF barrel) only in the chamber and throat area? Thanks.

Shooter-X - your posts really got me laughing. Thanks. BTW, I actually like RFC a lot - especially since they have a dedicated sub-forum for the rifle brand I'm interested in.

Thank you,
T.S.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

I'm very new to RF shooting and am wondering why all the "mechanical" effort to remove a carbon ring. Seems a chamber mop and an appropriate-length soak with a carbon-removing chemical would be a lot easier and less time consuming. Please help me understand why that would not work just fine? BTW, is that ring (in an RF barrel) only in the chamber and throat area? Thanks.

Shooter-X - your posts really got me laughing. Thanks. BTW, I actually like RFC a lot - especially since they have a dedicated sub-forum for the rifle brand I'm interested in.

Carbon rings are only hard to remove if you have shot several thousands of rounds. If you clean 4-500 rounds it wouldn't be too difficult to remove. From personal experience I believe a nylon brush is a waste of time. If you only want to go for the carbon ring then a worn out 22 LR brush would be best. I think it would be very hard to reverse direction on a new brush.

I say to people, use what works best for you. I just toss out ideas, suggestions and things I do.

 

[ELR researcher]

Carbon rings are only hard to remove if you have shot several thousands of rounds. If you clean 4-500 rounds it wouldn't be too difficult to remove. From personal experience I believe a nylon brush is a waste of time. If you only want to go for the carbon ring then a worn out 22 LR brush would be best. I think it would be very hard to reverse direction on a new brush.

I say to people, use what works best for you. I just toss out ideas, suggestions and things I do.

Seems you missed my question about a chemical vs mechanical (brush scrubbing) approach. Also re loacation of that ring. Again, I'm new to this. Thanks.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Seems you missed my question about a chemical vs mechanical (brush scrubbing) approach. Also re loacation of that ring. Again, I'm new to this. Thanks.

I suppose some sort of chemical would work. I don't know what and not sure it would stay in place. The carbon ring is always in the same spot on my rifles and that's right at the end of the case.