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Suppressors on duty side arm

K

karatemike77

Private
Minuteman
Jan 19, 2010
9
0
34
#1
recently i have started training with the fws trying to get on the force but i need to suply my own side arm, i have been wanting one for home use as well so maybe a two birds and one stone thing here
smile.gif


today i looked at a referbished from the swis pd sig p228 and loved it shot very nice and felt right

and i also looked at a springfiend XD not able to shoot it but it felt to me even more comfy

both in .40 S&W

some big differences in the guns pros and cons to both i guess

i would like to see what yall think what do you have and what do you like and what do you not like,

thanks very much
Mike
 
#2
Re: on duty side arm

Sig P228 doesn't come in .40, only 9mm. You sure you didn't mean the P229?

If you want my opinion, get a striker fired pistol or stick to single action. DA/SA sucks.
 
#5
Re: on duty side arm

I find the advantage to a striker fired weapon to be the consistancy of the trigger pull. with a DA/SA trigger your are going to have typically significantly different pull weights between the first round and each round thee after. with a striker fired pistol thats not the case.
 
#8
Re: on duty side arm

Get an HK. Look at either the P30 .40 or the P2000 .40LEM. However if you are opposed to HK for some reason and are set on either the XD or the Sig go with the XD. But get the M variant.
 
#9
Re: on duty side arm

I would get something that fit my hand size and had the same trigger pull each time, not da/sa. I would not be concerned about the number of rounds it held either, unless you are in a war zone. I carry a Springfield TRP Operator 45. In my opinion The HK are to bulky and are harder to shoot until you get used to the da first shot and the sa follow up. Same goes for the Beretta 92. The XD, Glock, Smith And Wesson M&P or 1911 variant are the way to go. Also stick with a 40 S&W or 45 acp. If you will be working night shift consider a pistol with a light rail. The Streamlight TLR is a good light to have on a pistol.
 
#10
Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think there is a big reason why most Duty weapons in this Country are Glocks! </div></div>

Yeah, because of the cost! Glocks have a sponge sucky trigger in my opinion.

That said, we're issued Glocks as well. They go bang every time and are the utilitarian pistols of mankind.

I much prefer my SIG P226 though. With the DA/SA
 
#13
Re: on duty side arm

The majority of departments issued Glock largley be cause of cost. Glock gives departments a huge discount on them and just about every model of retention holster fits the 17/22 frame. Plus they are reliable and parts are easy to change out.

Also many in law enforcement consider a gun something that they just "need" to have. Most agencies don't practice as much as they need to so the Glock is gun that just about anyone can use because it is point and click.

I think the quality of the SIG is way above Glocks. If you go with any of the larger and better known makers you'll be fine. SIG, HK, S+W, Springfield, Glock, Kimber, Colt...... you'll have a good gun. I have and like in order that I prefer: a 1911, SIG, Glock, HK and a Beretta. However if I were getting a new duty gun I would be really leaning to the Springfield XDm.

Find one that you like how it fits your hand and get out and shoot with it as offten as you can. A gun is just a tool, you are the weapon.

Good Luck
JMC
 
#14
Re: on duty side arm

JMC, you hit the nail on the head about the Glock. I agree some of our officers carry a pistol only because they were told to. They think of it just like an ink pin. A Glock is the best for those types, because they will not clean it between training nor after being in the rain and it will still work.
 
#15
Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NY700</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find the advantage to a striker fired weapon to be the consistancy of the trigger pull. with a DA/SA trigger your are going to have typically significantly different pull weights between the first round and each round thee after. with a striker fired pistol thats not the case.</div></div>
I disagree with your assessment of the DA/SA trigger. While you are correct in stating there is a significant difference in the two, I don't think it is anything that can't be overcome with propper training. Personally, I much prefer DA/SA to DAO because you can draw and fire the first shot (while taking up the slack in the trigger during the presentation) and every follow-on shot is single action. Just my .02, you know opinions are like...well, nevermind.

With that being said, I have recently made the switch to Sig, and don't see turning back in my future. Quality is very good for the money and I find them incredibly easy to shoot well. Older used ones can be had on the cheap, the ones made in Germany, and they still have plenty of life in them. That's assuming you don't need the rail that everyone loves these days (I do understand that for certain applications, just not mine).
 
#16
Re: on duty side arm

I agree that with proper training one can shoot the da/sa guns well the same as any handgun. The problem I see is that most officer don't want to take the time to train with what they have. So at the range I see rocks fly in front of their target on the first shot out of the holster.

To each his own. It all comes down to personal preference.
 
#18
Re: on duty side arm

I don't think there really is a proper training to overcome DA/SA, that is why they are becoming less and less popular, and the reason that Sig developed DAK and HK, LEM.

Muscle memory isn't going to allow for you to remember two trigger pulls and you're just going to mash the trigger. "Training" with a DA/SA involves wasting the first shot and making them count after that.

Double action pistols are a solution looking for their problem and have been for a very long time. They are not an innovation and offer nothing that a good striker fired or single action design doesn't, except for "comfort" in that you can carry a pistol with the hammer down and no safety.

They were a band-aid from the start and are a poor choice for the law enforcement or match shooter.
 
#19
Re: on duty side arm

Downzero, I shot tens-of-thousands of rounds through a 92 Beretta while on a CQB Team in the Marines (I know, whupteedo). Through hours and hours of dry-fire practice and the government allotting a ridiculous amount of ammo to us, I became very proficient with that firearm. We were certainly not taught that the first round is just a wasted one to get out of the way for the single-action shots. The targets from the others on my team would indicate that that was not the case. This time, I must respectfully disagree.
 
#21
Re: on duty side arm

As you can tell there are varying opinions on this matter. Check with the dept. you are going for as far as SOP on their firearms policy. Some state you must carry a certain make/model, while others give you a range of calibers and you can pick whatever you want. Then find a pistol that you are comfortable with, and can accurately put rounds down range.
 
#22
Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Ham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Downzero, I shot tens-of-thousands of rounds through a 92 Beretta while on a CQB Team in the Marines (I know, whupteedo). Through hours and hours of dry-fire practice and the government allotting a ridiculous amount of ammo to us, I became very proficient with that firearm. We were certainly not taught that the first round is just a wasted one to get out of the way for the single-action shots. The targets from the others on my team would indicate that that was not the case. This time, I must respectfully disagree. </div></div>

Shooting "rapid fire" in the Marine Corps means something like putting 15 rounds down range in a minute.

Shooting in USPSA at the top levels requires shooting about half that in a single second.

Sorry to say, but your experience is irrelevant. You used the tools Uncle Sugar issued you because that's what you had, but that doesn't mean they'd be ideal at the top levels of competition in a world where the choice of handgun is up to the shooter.
 
#23
Re: on duty side arm

I by no means meant to imply that I thought the 92 was a top-level pistol, though I never had any problems with mine. Also, we're not talking about USPSA competition here. The OP was wanting to know about a duty/carry gun. Finally, you are way off base on what my training was like. While I am familiar with the range practices of which you speak, we practiced in nothing but hammered pairs (2 to chest) and failure drills (2 to chest, 1 to head). All of this was very controlled and very fast (albiet, not competition fast). Also, the pistol was a secondary weapon, so with the completion of each drill, it was re-holstered and the M4 was presented to the target to build the muscle-memory of transitioning between the two. I feel that this type of reactive shooting is much closer to what the OP was referring to than any regimented competition where you basically learn the stages and practice them. Just giving my opinion, not trying to start a shit-storm.
 
#25
Re: on duty side arm

i like what was brought up about working night, im starting to lean twards the springfield XD because of all the safty and the abilty to see if chambered and striker ready in pitch black conditions, i know manny have the grip safties along with the triger but none seamed to feel as "right" the springfield and IMO if its not a good fit to you you will have a heck of a hard time learning to be profisient and deadly with it.

what yall thinkin?? am i in the ball park with the XD?

and what is the M variation??

Mike
 
#26
Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Ham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I by no means meant to imply that I thought the 92 was a top-level pistol, though I never had any problems with mine. Also, we're not talking about USPSA competition here. The OP was wanting to know about a duty/carry gun. Finally, you are way off base on what my training was like. While I am familiar with the range practices of which you speak, we practiced in nothing but hammered pairs (2 to chest) and failure drills (2 to chest, 1 to head). All of this was very controlled and very fast (albiet, not competition fast). Also, the pistol was a secondary weapon, so with the completion of each drill, it was re-holstered and the M4 was presented to the target to build the muscle-memory of transitioning between the two. I feel that this type of reactive shooting is much closer to what the OP was referring to than any regimented competition where you basically learn the stages and practice them. Just giving my opinion, not trying to start a shit-storm. </div></div>

thank you J-Ham you deffently know what im trying to get at and what im looking for
cool.gif

thank you for lentting me learn from your experiance
grin.gif
 
#27
Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: karatemike77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

and what is the M variation??

</div></div>

Here you go:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=springfield+xdm

Find something that you shoot well and that feels good to you. Rent or borrow if you can. The XDM is a nice pistol, if the beavertail does not bite you like it bites the web of my hand. If/when you get on the job worry about a duty pistol. Don't get the cart before the horse here.
 
#29
Re: on duty side arm

Mike,

Sorry if your intended thread got a little off topic. Here are some of my thoughts on pistols. The good news is that there are many different companies out there that make good pistols for the average guy (you and me). Springfield, Glock, Sig, HK, even Beretta all make a quality pistol in my opinion. You can buy a $400 used Glock or a $2500 1911 and I'll bet either one would serve you well for the rest of your life.

That's kind of the bad news too. For some, too many options can seem overwhelming. You have to get out and try as many as you can. Shoot them if possible, handle them if not. The XD is a fine pistol (I have no experience with the "M", but I guess it's an improvement).

As you've seen here, everyone likes something different. I prefer DA/SA. I have a feeling DownZero likes a good old 1911. That's cool too. Experience as many as you can and ask questions on the things you're unsure about. Experience is the ultimate tool, but as the saying goes, you never have it until right after you need it.

Take care, and good luck.
 
#30
Re: on duty side arm

thank you for your imput very valuable to a somewhat new shooter such as myself. i have read review after review and come to realize some have good points over eathother but it seams to be all about what fits you as a shooter, to me the XD it one of the best feeling guns i have ever held my fingers seam to grip with amazing comfert, and as i said earlyer if u cant hold it how do you expect to shoot it :p

being said are there any alternitaves to the XD anyone would sugest i think in .40 S&W with a good amount of safty feachers??
 
#31
Re: on duty side arm

I like Glocks, they flat out work, with no maintenance, EVER, but I suggest you go to a range that rents pistols, rent all the pistols you think you might like, BUT, rent 9 mm, why because your a new pistol shooter, and the softer recoil of the will help you decide what you like and dislike, frame size there all the same, then when you narrow it to the one you want to buy, rent a 40 to be sure.
 
#32
Re: on duty side arm

good advice thank you, i like the idea of the 9 but even for my job now i will need the .40, Bears/big cats all that fun stuff out in my line of work,

i have fired plenty of 9's and a few .45 how will a 40 compiar?
 
#33
Re: on duty side arm

.40 will be different. It will kick harder than a 9mm and some people (myself included) say the recoil is "snappier" than a .45. The .40 will have less recoil than the .45, but to me it seems to flip the gun up quick rather than roll it back hard like a .45 does.

If your job has bears and big cats involved, you're much better off with something a lot more high-powered than a .40-caliber handgun. Unless you're scary good with shot placement, meaning a CNS for lights-out on a big predator, they're going to at least tear you up if not kill you before they drop dead from a .40 wound. There are plenty of people on here with real-world experience with large predators like that, and I'm not one of them. You may want to check out the following thread for tips: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=876378
 
#34
Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like Glocks, they flat out work, with no maintenance, EVER, but I suggest you go to a range that rents pistols, rent all the pistols you think you might like, BUT, rent 9 mm, why because your a new pistol shooter, and the softer recoil of the will help you decide what you like and dislike, frame size there all the same, then when you narrow it to the one you want to buy, rent a 40 to be sure. </div></div>

I'm with Cobra. Glock in a heartbeat! I have an issued duty weapon with no choice in the matter but if I did it would be a glock.

This is a good read with lots of pictures. http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90
 
#35
Re: on duty side arm

Supersubes, that makes me want to buy a Glock again. I'm kind of thinking that even if its not your favorite pistol, everyone ought to have at least one.
 
#37
Re: on duty side arm

Karate,
The 40 s&w will fall recoil wise right between the 9mm and 45acp. If you like the xd, then look at the smith and wesson m&p. Most people I have had compare the two at the range shoot the M&P better. I will say that the XDM is arguably a better gun with more aftermarket parts, but the M&P tends to fit people better and has a lower bore line and center of gravity and therefore the muzzle flips less. I have put over 1K rounds through my M&P factory ammo and handloads and the only malfunction was from a bad handload that wasn't sized right. To the 9mm and 40s&w debate. If you run the ballistic charts a 147gr +P 9mm round will run with and in most cases outshine the 40. This has been debated aton on here and the best I can see comes down to this. The 40s&w was made for self defense. 90% of the ammo out there for it is with that in mind. The 9mm ammo runs every which way from crap plinking ammo surplus ammo to high end self defense ammo. Me personaly I like the 9mm for that reason. If you compare good 9mm with good 40s&w you can simply flip a coin. Witht the 9mm you have cheap training ammo, less recoil more options and can holster more ammo as well. Just my .02
 
#39
Re: on duty side arm

NY, I agree with everything you said. Well put. I carried a Sig 220 for awhile and am about to make the switch to the 226 for the reasons you stated. Plus, I find that I shoot a 9mm better than a .45 (in most cases) and we can all agree that a hit with any 9mm is better than a miss with a .45. I was also trained to shoot "pairs" on everything, and I feel that a pair of 9mm fired in quick succession is better than one .45. Just my .02
 
#40
Re: on duty side arm

karate
you have made several remarks regarding safeties. What exactly are you looking for? The trigger is your primary safety, and I would say all of the top tier guns we are speaking of are reliable and safe enough that I would not be overly concerned with a slam fire from dropping it. As a law officer how many safeties are you looking to engage and disengage in a stressful situation. I have heard pross and cons to a back strap safety, and thumb safety may be easy to operate but if not ambidextrous, if you were stuck firing off hand it may be an issue. Just curios what your concern is in this area.
 
#41
Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What does the AGENCY require? Curious,what kind of agency MANDATES that YOU purchase a DUTY sidearm?
confused.gif
</div></div>

Many agencies in local LE require the officer to purchase their sidearm, in the South it is generally Sheriff's Departments. Though they require the Deputy to purchase his onwn weapon the provide everything else. Unlike my department who issued G22's. but we do not have a quartermaster system so we have to purchase our own uniforms. It is retarded since we a 1700 member Department. My old Department, and this is going back many a year, provided everything, but if you wanted a level II or level III holster you had to buy it yourself. Most Departments have approved firearms lists.
 
#42
Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Ham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">than any regimented competition where you basically learn the stages and practice them. Just giving my opinion, not trying to start a shit-storm. </div></div>

USPSA, and more correctly, IPSC in general is not a "regimented competition" at all. It's a freestyle game where no two stages, besides standards and classifiers, are ever the same.

We certainly do not learn the stages and practice them, not basically and not at all. Your "opinion" is ignorant, and it is obvious from thinking that USPSA is some sort of game of muscle memory rather than skill.

It is one of the most basic cornerstones of practical shooting that it is freestyle, up to the shooter to solve any way he sees fit, subject only to the restrictions in the stage briefing that are written by the stage designer.

And just for the record (since someone did mention it), although I am a fan of the 1911, I compete with and shoot any gun that has a consistent trigger pull from the first shot to the last. As such, my safe contains striker fired and single action pistols, and while I am not indifferent to trigger choice between those two, whether it's for duty, competition, or otherwise, I advocate for guns that have a consistent trigger pull because it is my personal philosophy that teaching two trigger pulls is much closer to impossible than most users of DA/SA pistols are willing to recognize.

If I had to fill a duty holster, I would gladly fill it with any quality pistol that fit that criteria--one trigger from first shot to last. Skilled pistol shooters, especially those who have fired under the stress of classes, drills, and competition recognize the importance of this consistency that allows a person to most effectively control his firearm.

DA/SA is a compromise that I would not willingly make. Can I probably shoot a DA/SA better than most people? Sure. But it's not my choice because I believe that DA/SA is a detriment to the consistency that brings proficiency, and it is that proficiency that will save your life in a fight, whereas magic bullets and fancier firearms are a mere luxury in the same circumstance.
 
#43
Re: on duty side arm

I agree with most posts on here but being a LEO, you need to find out what make and model most other officers carry. You don't want to find yourself in a gun fight, out of ammo, and your partners extra magazine won't fit because it is a different weapon. And if you go with a Glock, which I carry, as most officers in this nation do, make sure you go with the model that most carry. I carry a 23 but another officer I know, not in my dept. carries a 22. His magazine will fit in my weapon but my magazine won't fit in his. Ask around and get to know what most carry in your area.
 
#44
Re: on duty side arm

I carry a Glock 21 on duty and have for about four years now. I have ABSOLUTE faith in its reliability, which is really the most important thing when you're talking about a duty weapon. If it don't go bang every time, well then what good is it? Say what you want about Glock, but they are utterly reliable. I would estimate I've put about 10,000 rounds through mine in the last 4 years (best guess). I have never had a malfunction (minus ones which were purposely induced with empty cases for failure drills). 98% of my coworkers also shoot Glocks (most are 21s or 19s). I don't even recall the last time I saw someone have an honest malfunction on a range. I also carry a Glock off duty (a 26). It has about 1,000 through it now with not one malfunction.

Don't get me wrong, I don't love everything about Glock. I wish they had a 1911 grip angle, I wish they had a grip safety, my 21 feels a lot like a brick, blah blah blah... but I shoot it well and dammit, it works. That's what counts for a duty weapon.

If Springfield ever comes out with the 45 XD-M then I intend to look seriously at carrying it. I just won't have the same confidence in it initially, and I wont carry it at work until it has a long trouble free break-in.
 
#45
Re: on duty side arm

Check the approved lists, I highly doubt the XD is gonna be on it. From a maintenance standpoint the gun is a turd: when it breaks, its gotta go back to Springfield, not even a Springfield-trained LEO armorer is certified to fix 100% of the gun. You cannot fast fire it from the hip out of the holster reliably and the mags do not function when dirty. There are tons of problems with the gun but the problem is that most XDs do not get ran hard enough to bring them to light or warrant fixing them. (Low LEO adoption numbers)

Glock, Sig, HK, S&W is all good to go, they have been proven several times over.
 
#46
Re: on duty side arm



Personally, if they have you buy your own weapon I would ask what the department prefers or requires and buy that -- whether I liked it or not -- and become proficient with it.

Moreover, I would try to determine if your approach is SOP in that department. If not, I would gut-check to determine if I was going to be labeled a wannabe cop-hag hanger-on -- which would be counter productive to your plans, IMO.

Finally, I too would be curious where the heck you live and what kind of department lets folks off the street train live-fire with them? I can't imagine anywhere but Petticoat Junction BFE letting that go on as I'm guessing most municipality insurance doesn't cover someone who hasn't been hired, or at least evaled in a live-fire situation.

Please fill out your profile more.
 
#48
Re: on duty side arm

I also carry a Glock 21 with a TLR 2 laser flashlight, great for clearing a room when you work split shift. However I carry a 1911 for off duty. You will get used to the trigger pull on a Glock by shooting. One trick that I learend a few years ago was , on the Glock after you fire your first round and the trigger has been pulled to the rear, keep the the trigger pulled to the rear. After the weapon cycles and when you have the sights close on let the trigger go forward slowly untill you feel the trigger sear re-engage with the striker. Then focus on your sight picture and squeeze. Getting used to that will tighten your group and reduce the amount of take up. Also after about 500 rnds or so and you shoot it enough you will be able feel in the trigger on the first stage how much slack to take up before the weapon , BANG LOL; One other thing to think about is God forbid you have to shoot someone even in the line of duty , your weapon will become evidence until the investigation is cleared up and the prosecutors office says its ok for you to have it back. Just food for thought
 
#50
Re: on duty side arm

You need to rent the different types as stated above. The glock does not have a grip angle that I personally find comfortable and I do not point it very well. Instead I have an HK USP Compact that works amazingly for me. However, I always find it rather comical that everyone attacks the first round trigger pull of a Sig or HK vs a Glock. First, you have to compare apples to apples. If you are carrying a glock, the striker is in the cocked position. The glock is NOT a DAO pistol. It is a striker fired pistol. When you pull the trigger, it goes bang. If you carry it uncocked, nothing but racking the slide and then pulling the trigger will make it fire. Consequently, if you carry the Sig or HK in Condition 1, the hammer on both is cocked back and the trigger pull will be single stage. Both single stages are better than a stock glock's pull. If someone bitches about the double action pull and we want to replicate that on a glock, we can't. If the striker is down, like the hammer would be on a Sig or HK you cannot get the glock to fire by pulling the trigger. You MUST rack the slide first. Here is the breakdown:

DAO: Hammer never stays to the rear. Each pull of the trigger cocks and releases the hammer or striker.

SAO: You must first cock the weapon via a spur on the hammer (SA revolver) before pulling the trigger or rack the slide if it is a semi. (1911)

DA/SA: If decocked, the first trigger pull will be DA, slightly heavier and longer than the SA pulls. The first trigger pull will cock the pistol and then drop the hammer. Once the slide recoils and returns to battery each pull will be SA. If already cocked when the first round was chambered, all trigger pulls will be short, light, crisp SA...even the first one. (Sig, HK)

Striker fired: Weapon must be cocked before pressing the trigger. Gun will not fire if trigger is pulled with striker in the forward position. (Glock)

The glock is a fine pistol...very utilitarian. However, you must give controls to your arguments. If you are going to carry an HK or Sig hammer down, you must talk about carrying your glock striker down. You would surely be able to engage faster with the Sig or HK in DA vice racking the slide and then acquiring your target. If they are all cocked, the trigger pull of the HK and Sig beats the glock. Lastly, if you wind up with a misfire, the Sig and HK gives you the opportunity to attempt to fire the round (light primer strike) again. The glock requires you to rack the slide and then attempt to fire again. My $.02

Josh
 
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