Suppressors On Handgun Stopping Power

[Norm]

Don't want to start a firestorm here (Fackler vs. Marshall vs. Hatcher vs. Jello Junkies vs. Morgue Monkeys, etc.) but I came across these anecdotal observations from a Ph.D working in the Atlanta morgue on relative effectiveness of handgun loads on human bodies he sees dragged onto the slab. Interesting.

According to this guy, from what he sees, he prefers .357s, .40s & .45s to .38 Spls, .380s & 9mms as carry/self defense handguns for the formers' ability to punch through bone and destroy vitals.

Don't know if this has been posted here before, but it's an interesting read:

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

 

[krummarine]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

Great article, Bud. thank you. I will pass it along.

 

[aggiesig]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

All pistols are mediocre for stopping things. Thats why you see debates on bullet design.

Rifles it really doesn't matter what the bullet does in tissue because the hydrostatic shock alone will disturb more tissue than most humans can walk away from.

 

[Norm]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aggiesig</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All pistols are mediocre for stopping things. Thats why you see debates on bullet design.

Rifles it really doesn't matter what the bullet does in tissue because the hydrostatic shock alone will disturb more tissue than most humans can walk away from. </div></div>

Well, yeah, arguably, if you know you're going to be in a firefight, a handgun is just a tool to fight your way to a proper shotgun or rifle.

Unfortunately, it's hard to tote and conceal long guns on one's person in public (and illegal in many states), so as far as CCWs go, I guess we're stuck with handguns for all practical purposes.

 

[Buckeye Scott]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Norm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

All pistols are mediocre for stopping things. Thats why you see debates on bullet design.

Rifles it really doesn't matter what the bullet does in tissue because the hydrostatic shock alone will disturb more tissue than most humans can walk away from. </div></div>

+1, 45acp designed to shoot people that are on drugs, can't go wrong with that.

 

[300WSM]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

from article: "As for me, I'll take a slow-moving .45 to a gun fight any day. I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations (yes, they will eventually kill but often not quickly enough to prevent the BG from doing you in first)and a .380 as well. These are probably the two calibers I see most often on the autopsy table.

well gee wouldn't it be fair to argue 380 and 9mm must work pretty good since that is what he sees the most often on the autopsy table.

 

[300WSM]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

"KRL, I'll take slow and heavy to light and fast any day. What I want is a round that plows through bone and tissue and expends ALL of its energy in the body. That said, the 125-grain .357 is marvelously effective. "


gee wonder why all the deer hunters around here prefer 243, 270, 7mm, 308, 30-06 over 45/70 and other gigantic stuff moving at 1000fps.

Probably cuz light and fast don't work! duh!

 

[300WSM]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

omg this thing goes on forever. screw this.

anyone depending on 1 hit to stop a handgun fight is a fool.

 

[Michael]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

bullet placement trumps caliber 99% of the time.

 

[smokshwn]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

I couldn't get very far in that diatribe.....Hopefully his reports have one cohesive thought in them because that article certainly doesn't.

Should be titled "Incoherent Thoughts on Handgun Ballistics from a Schizophrenic"

 

[Aces&Eights]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

good reading, good post

 

[Double-edged]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

I've seen the article before.

He states 8.2 autopsies/day, 365 days/year with the implication that they are homicides. That's right at 3,000 autopsies. The murder rate in Atlanta in 2007 (the first year that came up in a simple Google search) was 26 per 100,000 with Atlanta's population (in Atlanta city limits only) of about 537,000, so about 140 homicides per year of ALL types, not just with firearms.

When big facts like that jump out, I have a tendency to doubt the teller of the tale.

 

[Norm]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Double-edged</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've seen the article before.

He states 8.2 autopsies/day, 365 days/year with the implication that they are homicides. That's right at 3,000 autopsies. The murder rate in Atlanta in 2007 (the first year that came up in a simple Google search) was 26 per 100,000 with Atlanta's population (in Atlanta city limits only) of about 537,000, so about 140 homicides per year of ALL types, not just with firearms.

When big facts like that jump out, I have a tendency to doubt the teller of the tale. </div></div>

Admittedly, the guy would need an editor and a proof reader if this was to be published anywhere except a blog on the internet. He says later on that his observations of autopsies include homicides, suicides and deaths by natural causes, etc. plus mass graves in the Balkans and tsunami victims, so he's not saying he investigates 3,000 homicides per year -- at that rate, Atlanta would make Iraq and Afghanistan seem like Disneyland.

 

[Glock45]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Double-edged</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...
He states 8.2 autopsies/day, 365 days/year with the implication that they are homicides. That's right at 3,000 autopsies. </div></div>

Let me tell you as someone that attends autopsies for my investigations. . . there is NO M.E. that'll be performing 8.2 autopsies a day!!! On AVERAGE they're 2hrs, and that's the minor to moderate interesting ones!

In just my agency(NONE my shooting, just incidents in my agency to be clear!) I've seen people shot by one .22LR that walked 30ft and dropped. I've seen people hit with 4 or 5 9mm's that lived. I've seen people take 2 or 3 .45's that died. I agree that much of it is shot PLACEMENT! I'd rather be hit in the shoulder with a .44mag than in the chest with a .22 or .380. And Nooooooo, I'm not offering my test-dummy services.

My wife would let ya thought I bet! DOH!

I purchased a book, gosh, maybe 10years ago, titled something like "Handgun Stopping Power, the definitive study." I believe another edition of the same has since been released.

Funny stuff this is about caliber choices isn't it!?

-G45

 

[super-tac]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

This debate is as old as time itself.

I have one buddy that was shot in the chest with a 9mm and it just moved all the way across his chest just under the skin. Superficial damage only.

My neighbor was shot in the head with a .38 and lived, he's not in great shape though.

Another buddy survived a 7.62x39 shot in the lung in Kosovo. Even well placed rifle shots are not ALWAYS sure kills.



The human body is strange, objects moving at high rates of speed to strange things as well.

So many anomalies.

 

[BookHound]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

I have to admit I rolled my eyes a bit at the very first sentence:

"One of the benefits of working in a morgue is that I get to see what works and what doesn't."

My thought was - if you are working in a MORGUE with DEAD PEOPLE how are you seeing what DOESN'T work???

LOL.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

Good one Mark!

 

[300WSM]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

+1 lol

 

[Downzero]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BookHound</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

My thought was - if you are working in a MORGUE with DEAD PEOPLE how are you seeing what DOESN'T work???

LOL. </div></div>

Perhaps you haven't seriously considered that it's not only the lethal shot that is a teaching moment.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

Think about it folks. There isn't any guarntee round out there, rifle or pistol

Most of us have been hunting. We tend to shoot the heart lung area of a critter. More often then not, when hit in the heart/lung area they run 20 yards or more before they go down. Thats a 100-200 lb animal and that's with a rifle.

I'd recommend SHOOTING TO LIVE, by Cpt Willian Fairbairn & Cpt Eric Sykes of the Shanghi police at a time when street gangs ran rampid.

They were involved on over 600 shootings. They relate several times where bandits were shot several times with a 45 ACP and had to be pistol whipped to be subdued.

They did come up with an interesting theroy. When a person is gut shot, it may not kill them, but in most cases it makes then drop what ever they have and grab their stomachs. Anyone who was ever hit hard in the stomach can relate.

I've seen enough autopsys to learn you never know what a bullet is going to do, regardless of the bullet.

 

[USAF1A8]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't it Col. Cooper that said "a .22 in the eye is better than a .45 in the arm"

I carry a 9mm because I love the capacity, the feel, the whole platform really... and because I shoot it well. That doesn't stop me from carrying it with quality expanding ammunition though..

... Just finished the article +1 on shot placement, a great article thanks for sharing...

 

[smokshwn]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BookHound</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

My thought was - if you are working in a MORGUE with DEAD PEOPLE how are you seeing what DOESN'T work???

LOL. </div></div>

Perhaps you haven't seriously considered that it's not only the lethal shot that is a teaching moment. </div></div>

Perhaps you haven't seriously considered that the population of gunshot victims that never see the morgue grossly outnumber those who do.

Of course the numbers vary but year to year less than 20% (usually far less) of gunshot wounds are fatal. So the good morgue tech writing the article is missing 80+% of your teaching moments.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

Most major calibers with modern hollowpoint ammo perform comparatively. Placement is more important than ammo type.

9mm, .40, , .45, will all get the job done, provided the guy pulling the trigger points them at something important. Read a real interesting article on this topic once and I wish I would have saved it. Highlighted that when most people are shot, they stop what they are doing because their brain tells them they are supposed to. It was referred to as a 'psychological' stop.

The danger zone is dealing with individuals on drugs, or they're just plain crazy, and when shot they don't stop and drop to the ground, they keep fighting. This was seen in instances like the famous fbi shootout where the suspect was mortally wounded early on but continued fighting and shooting despite his injury.

If you don't plug the bad guy somewhere that makes his body incapable of continuing, cross your fingers and pray they aren't one of the rare badasses that stays in the fight. Placement is everything.

While interesting, anecdotal caliber advice from a coroner doesn't hold a lot of weight in my book. Seems like this guy is claiming quite a few autopsy procedures...

 

[Norm]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BookHound</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

My thought was - if you are working in a MORGUE with DEAD PEOPLE how are you seeing what DOESN'T work???

LOL. </div></div>

Perhaps you haven't seriously considered that it's not only the lethal shot that is a teaching moment. </div></div>

Perhaps you haven't seriously considered that the population of gunshot victims that never see the morgue grossly outnumber those who do.

Of course the numbers vary but year to year less than 20% (usually far less) of gunshot wounds are fatal. So the good morgue tech writing the article is missing 80+% of your teaching moments.

</div></div>


Obviously the whole point is to stop an attack as quickly as possible without getting yourself killed in the process. If you shoot an attacker and they end up killing/harming you before they crawl off and die, that pretty much defeats the purpose (of course, by the same token, you're probably not going to shed any tears if the perp winds up in the 7th ring of Hell before he hits the ground after you've pumped him full of lead).

So the problem on the street with a CCW is to find a calibre/load/rig that is reliable, concealable, controllable under stress fire with bullets that will do the job efficiently. And no, I don't plan to fire one shot, blow the smoke off the muzzle, twirl the pistol around my finger and drop it in my Hop Along Cassidy holster and be done with it. I'm going to keep firing until the threat is subdued or I'm out of bullets.

Unfortunately, we still don't have any comprehensive study from the morgue with accurate police reports that takes into account the infinite variables. All we have is ballistic gelatin tests and anecdotal accounts.

I am concerned with reports that, even if my shot placement is good, my .380ACP / .38 Spl +P / 9mm projectiles might skitter off some scumbag's sternum/rib cage without doing the job on the goods that will end the fight. This is useful information. It seems prudent to carry a .357, .40 S&W or a .45ACP instead...and to practice, practice, practice.

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BookHound</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to admit I rolled my eyes a bit at the very first sentence:

"One of the benefits of working in a morgue is that I get to see what works and what doesn't."

My thought was - if you are working in a MORGUE with DEAD PEOPLE how are you seeing what DOESN'T work???

LOL. </div></div>

In a sense yes. Just because there is a dead guy on the table that doesn't mean there isn't a very telling story to go along with it.

http://www.fpk11a.com/PA_Officer_Involved_Shooting_112906.pps

Some very contradictory information at the end of the report. It states that it is impossible for a 180 gr .40 to expand and penetrate less than 1" but yet the x-rays look consistent with the report. If so, how is it possible that this meets FBI approval and the rounds did not fail? Also states that shot placement is everything. Ok, I agree shot placement is important, but several of those rounds had they penetrated sufficiently, would have severed the spine ending the fight immediately.

So seeing what works and what doesn't in a morgue may sound a bit strange, but it appears that some very useful information can be extracted to at least raise some questions.

 

[Norm]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BookHound</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to admit I rolled my eyes a bit at the very first sentence:

"One of the benefits of working in a morgue is that I get to see what works and what doesn't."

My thought was - if you are working in a MORGUE with DEAD PEOPLE how are you seeing what DOESN'T work???

LOL. </div></div>

In a sense yes. Just because there is a dead guy on the table that doesn't mean there isn't a very telling story to go along with it.

http://www.fpk11a.com/PA_Officer_Involved_Shooting_112906.pps

Some very contradictory information at the end of the report. It states that it is impossible for a 180 gr .40 to expand and penetrate less than 1" but yet the x-rays look consistent with the report. If so, how is it possible that this meets FBI approval and the rounds did not fail? Also states that shot placement is everything. Ok, I agree shot placement is important, but several of those rounds had they penetrated sufficiently, would have severed the spine ending the fight immediately.

So seeing what works and what doesn't in a morgue may sound a bit strange, but it appears that some very useful information can be extracted to at least raise some questions. </div></div>

Well, I'm not sure what I'm looking at here because I can't read the text or see all the slides.

I see a couple of xrays and a couple of photos of the dead criminal and his tats. From the xrays, it looks like most of the bullets hit his right hip and lower abdomen and one broke his arm. From the photos I can't tell if the holes in the upper torso and neck are bullet wounds or from paramedics or the coroner working on him.

More info please.

 

[tip2oo3]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

I immediately quit reading after the word "gang-banger" was mentioned. For a ME that's pretty unprofessional in an article IMO. I see more benefit in researching first hand statements from people that have been in actual gunfights as opposed to reports after the fact, not to say they don't have their place because they do. Remember people - shot placement is your friend as opposed to what caliber you are carrying.

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

Not sure how it appears on your computer. I have to click the left mouse button to change slides, but have no trouble seeing the text.

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

You can also do a google search "suspect takes multiple hits from 40 S&W and 75 gr TAP". I had remembered the report from a while back and that's how I found it.

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"KRL, I'll take slow and heavy to light and fast any day. What I want is a round that plows through bone and tissue and expends ALL of its energy in the body. That said, the 125-grain .357 is marvelously effective. "


gee wonder why all the deer hunters around here prefer 243, 270, 7mm, 308, 30-06 over 45/70 and other gigantic stuff moving at 1000fps.

Probably cuz light and fast don't work! duh!

</div></div>

No, it's just a lack of knowledge.

Here is the exit in the rib cage of a Mature Bull Elk from a 180 grain shot from a 300 win mag the bullet impacted with a bout 2700 Foot Pounds of Energy
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/HuntingPicturesfrom2006060.jpg




The same Elk, but this exit was caused by a wide flat point hard cast bullet fired from the 500 JRH with about 888 Foot Pounds of Energy
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/HuntingPicturesfrom2006061.jpg



The belief that FPE is the primary factor in determining a wound channel is extremely flawed to say the least
__________________
------------------------------------------------
A 9mm may expand to a larger diamenter, but a 45 sure ain't going to shrink
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[azdead]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

I like my Springfield UltraCompac .45 with zillion grain HydroShok

 

[Sgt. 0811]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

I think it's a good artical (post). Personally, I prefer the .45 but more because I like shooting the .45 and a perk is the stopping power. The post did make me think about a number of things. Like the shotgun part. I am not a shotgun person but the two that I do own, I've nover thought about smaller shot as a benefit until now. I'll have to think on that one more. I am glad I read it, it was very very long but still interesting.

I tend to stay out of the whole 9mm vs .45 thing, fact is they are both combat proven, LE used, and completely different. I for one am tired of that debate as a lot of us are. I think, shoot and carry what you can shoot well with, own a gun because you make it your hobby or lifestyle first and foremost, let defense be a bonus.

 

[Norm]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tip2oo3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I immediately quit reading after the word "gang-banger" was mentioned. For a ME that's pretty unprofessional in an article IMO. I see more benefit in researching first hand statements from people that have been in actual gunfights as opposed to reports after the fact, not to say they don't have their place because they do. Remember people - shot placement is your friend as opposed to what caliber you are carrying. </div></div>

Oh yes, I was immediately incensed by that racist, politically incorrect slur. I prefer the term "scum bag" myself.

 

[Norm]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt. 0811</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it's a good artical (post). Personally, I prefer the .45 but more because I like shooting the .45 and a perk is the stopping power. The post did make me think about a number of things. Like the shotgun part. I am not a shotgun person but the two that I do own, I've nover thought about smaller shot as a benefit until now. I'll have to think on that one more. I am glad I read it, it was very very long but still interesting.

I tend to stay out of the whole 9mm vs .45 thing, fact is they are both combat proven, LE used, and completely different. I for one am tired of that debate as a lot of us are. I think, shoot and carry what you can shoot well with, own a gun because you make it your hobby or lifestyle first and foremost, let defense be a bonus. </div></div>

Speaking of buckshot, from what I've gleaned on the interwebs, copper plated 00 or 000 seems to get the nod for range and tight patterning as well as penetration in a human body and stopping power. Here again, that's going from gelatin tests and anecdotal accounts.

It would be useful if someone knowledgable or some accredited scientific organization would produce and encyclopedia of stopping power using detailed police reports, medical reports, xrays and morgue photos of dead perps (worth a thousand words) that would be constantly updated as cartridge loads evolve.

Edited:

Holy Sh*t -- I guess there are some publications around if you can find them and want to pay the price:

Gunshot Wounds -- $115.00

http://books.google.com/books?id=VbrDbbH...lls&f=false


Terminal Ballistics -- $181.00


http://books.google.com/books?id=JpwNhdc...bs_similarbooks

Jeez, I never knew how lethal nail guns and errant CO2 cartridges could be. Educational, but rather sobering, kind of a Rogue's Gallery of Darwin Awards. Put me down for the coffee table editions! ;D

Note to self: I guess if you really want to end it all, a .30'06 to the head will do the trick.

 

[benchmstr]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

i have carried a 45acp as a duty weapon my whole career...but would not hesitate at all to carry a 9mm.....with todays ammo technology, and the ammount of ammo i can carry with a 9mm really makes the decision easier...

bench

 

[Spazz.]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

Handgun stopping power - carry a handgun with which you can hit a moving target at engagement distance while under stress and moving. Practice until you can. If you ever have to use it, shoot the CNS to stop the attack immediately. There's what you need to know.

A .45 does no good if you hit someone on the side of their ribs. They may not even feel pain, maybe just an impact. A .32 is a much better tool if you can shoot it to immediately stop the threat. Carry good proven ammunition in a reliably proven gun, and practice until it's almost second nature to get hits on target. Then keep practicing at least every week. Any modern handgun with good ammunition can stop a human threat if the shot is properly placed.

"Knock-down power" is a theory and myth, because it can not be proven. "Shot placement stoppage" is also theory because it isn't 100% reliably proven. There are always what-ifs, unusual circumstances, and odd penetrations when dealing with something so small going so fast. However, I feel that shot placement is much more effective than caliber selection.

 

[tomahawk84]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

I carry a glock 19 every day with one extra glock 17 mag. Federal HST or winchester silver tip 124 grain or better.
+P these are clost to .357sig velocity. I wouldn't hesitate to grab my 19 over any other handgun.

 

[Norm]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomahawk84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I carry a glock 19 every day with one extra glock 17 mag. Federal HST or winchester silver tip 124 grain or better.
+P these are clost to .357sig velocity. I wouldn't hesitate to grab my 19 over any other handgun. </div></div>


The thing that concerns me now about 9mm are the (admittedly anecdotal) reports of 9mm slugs bouncing off of bone -- even if your shot placement is good (center mass heart /lung area) you still have a 50/50 chance of hitting bone before it penetrates to the vitals. The .357 MAG (and the ballistically close .357 SIG) have long been touted as the top man stoppers, consistently able to punch through bone and penetrate the vitals (again, anecdotal reports & gelatin tests).

To me, the .357 SIG has only slightly more perceived recoil than a 9mm +P and the magazine carries only one less cartridge than a 9mm (e.g. 12 vs. 13). Comparing Corbon ammo, the 9mm +P goes 1350 fps in 115 gr. and 1250 fps in 125 gr. The .357 SIG is rated at 1425 fps in 124 gr. and delivers @ 130 more ft.lbs. of muzzle energy than the 9mm +P 125 gr. load.

So the choice for me is clear: .357 SIG (or .45ACP) in favor of 9mm +P.

 

[Whiskey 2-1]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

In the literally hundred or so gunshots I see per year I have yet to see any distinct difference in penetration rates between 9mm, 40sw, and 45ACP. I have seen all of them fail and succeed. Yes, they do occassionally bounce off bone, but in my experience this is not as common as people are led to believe. They may angle off a bone with a tangential shot, but these shots will not be immediate fight stoppers anyway. If you are going to put lead into the area of the chest where the important stuff lives, you need to be hitting the skin at a pretty steep angle.....and you need to do it more than once no matter the caliber. Anything less and you may not have the results you are expecting. The sad truth is that handguns are not good fight stoppers. Their utility lies in their size, weight, and convenience. People survive longer than most people think after a pistol round to the chest.

As was mentioned previously, use the weapon you can quickly, accurately, and reliably hit vital areas under stress.

My thoughts.....

 

[Norm]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the literally hundred or so gunshots I see per year I have yet to see any distinct difference in penetration rates between 9mm, 40sw, and 45ACP. I have seen all of them fail and succeed. Yes, they do occassionally bounce off bone, but in my experience this is not as common as people are led to believe. They may angle off a bone with a tangential shot, but these shots will not be immediate fight stoppers anyway. If you are going to put lead into the area of the chest where the important stuff lives, you need to be hitting the skin at a pretty steep angle.....and you need to do it more than once no matter the caliber. Anything less and you may not have the results you are expecting. The sad truth is that handguns are not good fight stoppers. Their utility lies in their size, weight, and convenience. People survive longer than most people think after a pistol round to the chest.

As was mentioned previously, use the weapon you can quickly, accurately, and reliably hit vital areas under stress.

My thoughts..... </div></div>

Couple of questions to clarify:

In your experience, do you rate the .357 Magnum / .357 SIG about the same as the 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP as a man stopper (i.e. does the .357 penetrate bone any better than the other calibres)?

In sifting through all the anecdotal accounts and opinions, it sounds like the .357 is better at penetrating cars, doors, etc. and still delivering the goods on the bad guy. Any truth to that?

Also, by steep angle do you mean a straight on near 90 degree rt. angle bullet impact with the chest?

Thanks!

 

[nobearsyet]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

Don't remember where ir eaad it but it holds true and I firmly follow it so I'll post it here "A 9mm or a 40 may or may not expand, but a 45 damn sure ain't gonna shrink. Might as well not take chances and cut a fullsize hole to start with."

 

[Spazz.]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

I'm sketchy on why people want things to punch through car doors, house doors, and that kind of thing. If I'm in a car and someone's trying to get in, I'm going to drive off. If the person's already in the car, then you don't need to shoot through your door, do you? Don't put yourself into situations that have no exit, like being in a car with no way to move it. Someone not in law enforcement would never have the need to shoot through someone else's car door, either.

As for the door of my home, if I think there's a threat on the other side of the door, I know for a fact a 12 gauge slug will slice straight through any of my wooden or metal doors. Sure, a shotgun isn't as convenient to carry around as a handgun, but if there's a threat in my house I'm only grabbing my pistol until I can pick up my shotgun.

If a .357 mag or Sig is wanted for the penetration, why not just pick up one of the .44 mag Night Guards and forget about penetration issues?

 

[Norm]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sketchy on why people want things to punch through car doors, house doors, and that kind of thing. If I'm in a car and someone's trying to get in, I'm going to drive off. If the person's already in the car, then you don't need to shoot through your door, do you? Don't put yourself into situations that have no exit, like being in a car with no way to move it. Someone not in law enforcement would never have the need to shoot through someone else's car door, either.

As for the door of my home, if I think there's a threat on the other side of the door, I know for a fact a 12 gauge slug will slice straight through any of my wooden or metal doors. Sure, a shotgun isn't as convenient to carry around as a handgun, but if there's a threat in my house I'm only grabbing my pistol until I can pick up my shotgun.

If a .357 mag or Sig is wanted for the penetration, why not just pick up one of the .44 mag Night Guards and forget about penetration issues? </div></div>


There must not be any road rage or drive by incidents in your neck of the woods. I guess bad guys never, ever shoot at people from the protection of a vehicle, so the "authorities" deem that we should not be able to shoot through car doors or windows with a handgun. Of course, if the need did arise, I guess I could just pull an M1A1 out of my back pocket and unload some AP rounds into the bad guy and his vehicle. God forbid that we civvies ever let ourselves get "boxed in" in a traffic jam or a parking lot.

The truth is, there are a lot of dangerous idiots out there actively looking for trouble. I've had two incidents in the last few months where some crazy/drunk/drugged moron accosted me on the street (in a good neighborhood) and threatened to kill me for no rational reason. One was in a pick up truck, by the way, and blocked my car into a parking space. Luckily, I had either a .45 or 9mm CCW in hand each time and a cooler head (mine) prevailed so nobody got hurt. But all it needed was a little more booze or meth or general stupidity/craziness in the bad guys' heads for things to get really ugly in a hurry.

As far as shooting inside, etc. a few months ago, I had an incident where somebody walked into the back door of my house one night (through a back yard gate and a door accidentally left unlocked by my wife or one of my kids). The house was lit, the TV was on and I was up and about making a lot of noise, but this guy came in anyway (crazy, huh?). From another room, I heard a noise in the kitchen and thought it was one of my kids getting a snack and called out. Luckily the guy ran out (I had my 9mm within easy reach) but it could have gotten ugly in a hurry, especially if I'd walked in unarmed and unsuspecting and the guy happened to grab a large kitchen knife laying there and come after me. Of course, had I known the bad guy was in the house, sure, I would have reached for the Benelli loaded with 000 buck.

The same thing happened to a neighbor a couple of weeks ago: (probably the same) bad guy finds an unlocked door and walks in while the daughter is dozing on the sofa. Bad guy wasn't even fazed by the HUGE and very vocal German shepherd that lives there. A few years ago, I walked into a house, surprised two burglars (fortunately had my 9mm), etc. etc. etc. -- in a "good" neighborhood again. By the grace of God neither me nor my loved ones have gotten hurt in these incidents...so far. There are still a lot of crazy scum bags walking around looking for trouble, undeterred by the police and the criminal justice system.

I could go on and on, but the gist of it is that when the chips have been down, I have NEVER EVER EVER had a cop standing there to do anything to help me. The best I've gotten was an ineffectual "investigation" after the fact with no results. So I guess it's up to me to protect myself and my loved ones and if I feel the need to shoot some lunatic attacker through a car door with the weapon at hand (usually a hand gun), by God I will fucking do it. Just give me the right loads to do the job.

I assume you're being sarcastic (smug? jaded?) suggesting that I carry a 2" snub nosed .44 magnum on the street. I can't think of a more ridiculous weapon to have use to protect myself, except for maybe a .410 shotgun revolver loaded with birdshot.

Please...

 

[Spazz.]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Norm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There must not be any road rage or drive by incidents in your neck of the woods. I guess bad guys never, ever shoot at people from the protection of a vehicle, so the "authorities" deem that we should not be able to shoot through car doors or windows with a handgun. Of course, if the need did arise, I guess I could just pull an M1A1 out of my back pocket and unload some AP rounds into the bad guy and his vehicle. God forbid that we civvies ever let ourselves get "boxed in" in a traffic jam or a parking lot.
<span style="color: #009900">There's plenty of road rage, but no real drive-bys to speak of around here. I don't want to start a hypothetical situation war, but what would happen in a traffic jam to cause someone to start shooting at you? I know people are crazy and it occasionally pays off to be paranoid, but I have trouble seeing this set of circumstances. I don't let myself get boxed in at stoplights or in parking lots, especially if I know there's someone driving crazy behind me. I keep myself out of those situations. Let me know how you keep that M1 in your pocket; that's a good trick.</span>

The truth is, there are a lot of dangerous idiots out there actively looking for trouble. I've had two incidents in the last few months where some crazy/drunk/drugged moron accosted me on the street (in a good neighborhood) and threatened to kill me for no rational reason. One was in a pick up truck, by the way, and blocked my car into a parking space. Luckily, I had either a .45 or 9mm CCW in hand each time and a cooler head (mine) prevailed so nobody got hurt. But all it needed was a little more booze or meth or general stupidity/craziness in the bad guys' heads for things to get really ugly in a hurry.
<span style="color: #009900">If someone's in a truck and you're on foot, it seems like it would be easy to break line of sight or at the very least make it difficult to hit you with a handgun. There is plenty of cover in a parking lot, and I would have a problem firing in a very public parking lot anyway unless it couldn't be avoided. It sounds like you're rational and were able to avoid using force in your situations though, so good job. We need more rational thinkers in the world.</span>

As far as shooting inside, etc. a few months ago, I had an incident where somebody walked into the back door of my house one night (through a back yard gate and a door accidentally left unlocked by my wife or one of my kids). The house was lit, the TV was on and I was up and about making a lot of noise, but this guy came in anyway (crazy, huh?). From another room, I heard a noise in the kitchen and thought it was one of my kids getting a snack and called out. Luckily the guy ran out (I had my 9mm within easy reach) but it could have gotten ugly in a hurry, especially if I'd walked in unarmed and unsuspecting and the guy happened to grab a large kitchen knife laying there and come after me. Of course, had I known the bad guy was in the house, sure, I would have reached for the Benelli loaded with 000 buck.
<span style="color: #009900">You wouldn't have had to shoot through a door in that situation, would you? Good that you had your 9mm close, I tend to keep my .40 within arm's reach anywhere in my house as well. It would be difficult for anyone to approach my house without either my wife, dogs, or I knowing about it (it has yet to happen, actually), but that's an advantage to living on a farm that I don't share with the majority of the population. Again, it's good that it was situation avoided instead of situation critical. My point was that in your own house, you shouldn't have to worry about penetrating a door because the person would either be inside or you should have enough time to get something more adequate if you have to shoot through the door.</span>

The same thing happened to a neighbor a couple of weeks ago: (probably the same) bad guy finds an unlocked door and walks in while the daughter is dozing on the sofa. Bad guy wasn't even fazed by the HUGE and very vocal German shepherd that lives there. A few years ago, I walked into a house, surprised two burglars (fortunately had my 9mm), etc. etc. etc. -- in a "good" neighborhood again. By the grace of God neither me nor my loved ones have gotten hurt in these incidents...so far. There are still a lot of crazy scum bags walking around looking for trouble, undeterred by the police and the criminal justice system.
<span style="color: #009900">Agreed, that's why I'm always armed. Again, I'm very glad that neither you nor any of your loved ones have been hurt.</span>

I could go on and on, but the gist of it is that when the chips have been down, I have NEVER EVER EVER had a cop standing there to do anything to help me. The best I've gotten was an ineffectual "investigation" after the fact with no results. So I guess it's up to me to protect myself and my loved ones and if I feel the need to shoot some lunatic attacker through a car door with the weapon at hand (usually a hand gun), by God I will fucking do it. Just give me the right loads to do the job.
<span style="color: #009900">I like your mindset, I personally just don't see me putting myself in any circumstances where it would be necessary. Especially with family involved, I would much rather avoid a situation completely rather than jeopardize my family's safety. I think you would too unless you felt that there was no other option. No stable person would ever intentionally seek out or stay in a dangerous situation, or put their family into one. I know you're talking about circumstances outside of your control, but situational awareness goes a long way toward preventing most of these things from happening. You can't depend on law enforcement to stop bad guys, you can count on them to show up at some point and take statements.</span>

I assume you're being sarcastic (smug? jaded?) suggesting that I carry a 2" snub nosed .44 magnum on the street. I can't think of a more ridiculous weapon to have use to protect myself, except for maybe a .410 shotgun revolver loaded with birdshot.
<span style="color: #009900">I can think of plenty more ridiculous weapons to try to protect yourself with than a .44 magnum. I was actually seriously pointing out that if you're thinking about a .357 magnum for protection and penetration, why the hell not get a .44 magnum for a bigger hole, more penetration, and just as much carryability as a 2" .357? I wouldn't mind having one myself.</span>

Please...

</div></div>

My responses in <span style="color: #009900">green</span>.

 

[smokshwn]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sketchy on why people want things to punch through car doors, house doors, and that kind of thing. If I'm in a car and someone's trying to get in, I'm going to drive off. If the person's already in the car, then you don't need to shoot through your door, do you? Don't put yourself into situations that have no exit, like being in a car with no way to move it. Someone not in law enforcement would never have the need to shoot through someone else's car door, either.

</div></div>

The reason you're sketchy is that unlike you, most of us are not omniscient. We cannot foresee the lethal encounter that awaits us. It's exact circumstances are a mystery to us, unlike someone with your obviously superior knowledge, skills, and abilities (and functioning crystal ball).

Just as a little wake up call dirtbags oftentimes take vehicles with kids in car seats, they shoot from behind cover, they try to run you down in your own car, and sometimes there is even multiple dirtbags.....etc etc etc.

From your statement you give the impression that you have it all figured out, but I will guarantee you this...Continuing on this false sense of knowledge you have displayed is doing nothing but setting you up for an insanely steep learning curve.

Good luck

 

[Norm]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sketchy on why people want things to punch through car doors, house doors, and that kind of thing. If I'm in a car and someone's trying to get in, I'm going to drive off. If the person's already in the car, then you don't need to shoot through your door, do you? Don't put yourself into situations that have no exit, like being in a car with no way to move it. Someone not in law enforcement would never have the need to shoot through someone else's car door, either.

</div></div>

The reason you're sketchy is that unlike you, most of us are not omniscient. We cannot foresee the lethal encounter that awaits us. It's exact circumstances are a mystery to us, unlike someone with your obviously superior knowledge, skills, and abilities (and functioning crystal ball).

Just as a little wake up call dirtbags oftentimes take vehicles with kids in car seats, they shoot from behind cover, they try to run you down in your own car, and sometimes there is even multiple dirtbags.....etc etc etc.

From your statement you give the impression that you have it all figured out, but I will guarantee you this...Continuing on this false sense of knowledge you have displayed is doing nothing but setting you up for an insanely steep learning curve.

Good luck



</div></div>


Here, here.

We had an incident in my town a few years ago where two meth heads in a car pulled up to a convenience store. Both had criminal records a mile long, but the meth head in the back seat also had a 12 ga. pump shot gun and multiple rounds of buckshot. The bad guy had been menacing people with the shotgun and finally escalated into taking pot shots at random passersby from the back seat of the stationary car (I know this sounds like a completely impossible scenario, but it really happened). Fortunately, the bad guy didn't hit anybody.

The police were summoned. The first officer to respond must have been mentally challenged because he just walked up to the car and immediately took fire from the bad guy. He got off a couple of ineffectual wild shots from his issue .40 Glock before he ran like a spotted ass ape for dear life. Instead of giving up (?) the bad guy got out of the car and pursued the the cop with his shotgun blazing. By this time a swarm of cops and swat members converged on the scene. In the hail of gunfire that followed, the bad guy finally ran out of bullets and gave up, without suffering a scratch. However, a middle aged lady 3 blocks away was not so lucky: as she was ringing a neighbor's door bell, she was struck in the neck with an errant .40 round from a cop's Glock and was killed instantly. The cops were exonerated, but the bad guy was found guilty of murder and sentenced to life in prison (as is the law in this state), where he will spend the rest of his life on the taxpayers' dole (unless he's paroled, which is not impossible), not to mention the huge sums spent to try him. (too bad the cops couldn't manage to kill him themselves and save society the trouble and expense)

Unexpected shit can and does happen. You just do the best you can given the likely scenarios (which becomes more indeciferable and confusing the more you learn). But the threats are very real and they often have a way of finding us when we're least expecting trouble, minding our own business, not bothering anyone. You try to take precautions but enjoy life without being a total paranoid and barricading yourself in your house and making yourself a prisoner.

To me, that means carrying a CCW load that has sufficient "stopping power" and the capability (if possible) of penetrating bone, car bodies, etc. reliably if need be to stop an attack -- that is still concealable and controllable under stress fire and has sufficient capacity without having to reload. I am thinking, for my purposes, that would be the .357 SIG (not that I'm going to throw away my .380s, .38s & .45s which all have CCW value in different situations). However, I have no direct proof or expert information that .357 SIG is capable of penetrating car bodies, etc. Maybe that information exists somewhere on the internet, or, as time permits, I may end up buying some car doors at a junk yard and rigging some test medium to make my own (admittedly unscientific) tests.

For me, a good CCW does NOT mean a .44 magnum snubby: too much recoil, muzzle blast, and recovery time between follow up shots, not to mention too few bullets and difficulty in reloading. I have enough problems practicing with a vented .44 mag with soft rubber grips -- it hurts to shoot -- after a few rounds I start flinching and want to stick my hand in a bucket of ice. But that's just me. I am not Dirty Harry.

 

[Spazz.]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

smokshwn, I definitely do not have it all figured out. I'm not skipping merrily around, thinking I know where the bad guys are and what they're going to do. If I knew where the bad guys were and what they were going to do, I'd be getting paid a hell of a lot more than I am now. Or I'd be in prison, I suppose. The point I'm trying to make is one that's been made time and time again here, and that's carry the best possible weapon you can for your environment.

My city's had around 8 shootings between 2010 and 2011, up from around 2 in 2009. Things around here are apparently headed down the wrong path. Most of the shootings have occurred in two different areas of town. Do I have a reason to be there, and do I go around those areas? No on both accounts. Am I likely to encounter someone trying to pin me in my car and shoot at me from their truck? No, otherwise I'd keep a shotgun filled with slugs within grabbing distance. In a likely encounter where I live, would I need more than 5 or 6 shots of .357 mag? No, but I typically carry 21 rounds of .40 sw when I'm in public. I keep myself out of areas and avoid situations that have a potential outcome that's pear-shaped as much as I possibly can. Or, if my crystal ball is working (usually on Tuesdays for some reason), I go by whatever it tells me.

Norm, a lot of people carry .357 sig and many people think it's a great caliber. I like the caliber, but I can't find the ammunition around here I'd like or I would probably have at least a .357 conversion barrel for my gun. By all means, pick up some old car doors with glass and everything and post the results you get with different ammunitions. I love seeing those kinds of tests, because they're not done by nameless people in testing facilities. I do tests on various materials with different loads for my different guns, just to see what the projectiles do.

I like the .44 mag for its performance. I would carry a .50 AE if I could, because I'm accurate with it and it has great penetration and hole size. My primary concern with people wanting car and home door penetration is people thinking it's fine to shoot at someone in a situation that doesn't require lethal force. Just like the story you posted above, I don't want an innocent person hurt because I can't hit my target or I'm shooting at something I have no reason to shoot at. Based on what you've said here, that doesn't seem like something you personally are apt to do.

A swarm of police and SWAT members shooting at one person and missing completely, only to kill a woman several blocks away, is not a mistake I would like to make. In that situation, one person well practiced with their weapon could have brought a quick end to it. In that situation, it would have been beneficial to have ammunition to cut through car doors. If you do feel like it's a valid threat to you, then do tests and please do post the results because I'm curious as well. I personally just don't see the need for it, though it's always good to have the knowledge.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

Just an observation,

Couple of cops friends decided to test what shoots through car doors better. They have an old school friend who runs a junk yard.

They had fun one afternoon and got paid to do so.

They also discovered their high dollar talon/claw/butterfly/petalled ammo was horrible at penetrating car doors while the cheap walmart ball ammo punched through!

My take away from that is any argument on which caliber penetrates better isnt near as important as what projectile you are throwing.

There are lots of reports of suspects taking multiple rounds and not going down, however the reports of how many double tapped badguys go down like a payday hooker dont make splashy headlines.

I'd suggest the CCW types practise quick presentation followed by multiple rounds COM, ie CHEST.

All bone bouncing aside, hitting the ribcage beats the 'punch' in the stomach. Bullets dont punch like fists, soft tissue doesnt catch the round's energy like bone.

Double or triple tap the chest.

Oh on knock down power, I had a few 'engineers' tell me about how superior the 40 is over my 45. We setup pepper poppers to see how low we could go and still knock it over.

9mm took a headshot
40 down to the circle
45 halfway down the leg.

it seems the 45 could overcome the lack of leverage better than the other two.

Not the final word, but interesting.

 

[Norm]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just an observation,

Couple of cops friends decided to test what shoots through car doors better. They have an old school friend who runs a junk yard.

They had fun one afternoon and got paid to do so.

They also discovered their high dollar talon/claw/butterfly/petalled ammo was horrible at penetrating car doors while the cheap walmart ball ammo punched through!

My take away from that is any argument on which caliber penetrates better isnt near as important as what projectile you are throwing.

There are lots of reports of suspects taking multiple rounds and not going down, however the reports of how many double tapped badguys go down like a payday hooker dont make splashy headlines.

I'd suggest the CCW types practise quick presentation followed by multiple rounds COM, ie CHEST.

All bone bouncing aside, hitting the ribcage beats the 'punch' in the stomach. Bullets dont punch like fists, soft tissue doesnt catch the round's energy like bone.

Double or triple tap the chest.

Oh on knock down power, I had a few 'engineers' tell me about how superior the 40 is over my 45. We setup pepper poppers to see how low we could go and still knock it over.

9mm took a headshot
40 down to the circle
45 halfway down the leg.

it seems the 45 could overcome the lack of leverage better than the other two.

Not the final word, but interesting. </div></div>

Here's something I found on various handgun, rifle and shotgun rounds fired at a car:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

Kind of unscientific seat of the pants tests, but at least it's something. Unfortunately, they don't even say what ammo was used in the various tests, so it's hard to figure why a 7.62x39 round blew straight through both sides of the car yet a .308 buried itself in the passenger door. According to this, 9mm, .40 and .45 can penetrate a car door. Not sure if they were using hollow points or FMJ.

It would be good if these tests noted the type of ammo used and were done with blocks of ballistic gelatin on the inside of the car (instead of paper target) so you could get a sense of how much stopping power is left after the bullet penetrates the door or window. From what was tested, it looks like laminated glass windshields tend to shatter the handgun bullets tested (but they still hit the inside target) where as bullets tend to plow right through the car doors.

 

[3PER]

Re: On Handgun Stopping Power

I was kinda surprised what a 9mm Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P JHP did to a baseball today.
That being said, I'm glad my G31 is back from the custom shop.
I know what .357 sig will do to a car door.