Options for dope management and Kestrel selection

[762libertarian]

Hello,

I'm not a new shooter but I'm slowly progressing into the style of shooting that is discussed here on the Hide.

I'm looking at getting a Kestrel, and I see that the most popular version seems to be the 5700, that contains trajectory data and calculates your firing solution. My gut preference is to have the ballistic dope on paper, and just use the Kestrel and rangefinder/inclinometer to figure out what data to use. I'm comfortable with having things written down like that, and I'd rather have the data logistics on paper than in some kind of bluetooth/app/USB-cable/firmware update/forgot the battery charger mess.

I'm thinking I'd just need a small set of tables for each cartridge/rifle combination, and then I could choose the one that is close enough based on temperature and pressure, based on my collected data on muzzle velocity changes and (calculated) data on air pressure changes. Where I live and for the ranges I shoot at, pressure is only a relevant factor in extreme cases, but the temperature changes enough to be relevant.

If I go this way, then I'd go with a cheaper Kestrel and instead invest in some notebooks and some lamination paper for when I've filled out the tables.

Do you think I*m going to change my mind and have to go back and get "the right" Kestrel? Am I missing a "cry once" moment? Again - I just picked a LRF/binocular combination without the possibility to enter ballistic data, because I don't feel the need to integrate the data that is unique to my rifle & cartridge with a gadget.

 

[Billl223]

Hello,

I'm not a new shooter but I'm slowly progressing into the style of shooting that is discussed here on the Hide.

I'm looking at getting a Kestrel, and I see that the most popular version seems to be the 5700, that contains trajectory data and calculates your firing solution. My gut preference is to have the ballistic dope on paper, and just use the Kestrel and rangefinder/inclinometer to figure out what data to use. I'm comfortable with having things written down like that, and I'd rather have the data logistics on paper than in some kind of bluetooth/app/USB-cable/firmware update/forgot the battery charger mess.

I'm thinking I'd just need a small set of tables for each cartridge/rifle combination, and then I could choose the one that is close enough based on temperature and pressure, based on my collected data on muzzle velocity changes and (calculated) data on air pressure changes. Where I live and for the ranges I shoot at, pressure is only a relevant factor in extreme cases, but the temperature changes enough to be relevant.

If I go this way, then I'd go with a cheaper Kestrel and instead invest in some notebooks and some lamination paper for when I've filled out the tables.

Do you think I*m going to change my mind and have to go back and get "the right" Kestrel? Am I missing a "cry once" moment? Again - I just picked a LRF/binocular combination without the possibility to enter ballistic data, because I don't feel the need to integrate the data that is unique to my rifle & cartridge with a gadget.

I'm also somewhat new to this type of shooting. The Kestrel 5700 lets you instantly update your data as wind and weather change. I you just want data to record , a phone app such as Strelok Pro might be a better and much cheaper solution.

 

[CShooter92]

Please bear with me as this might get long winded. I have been shooting for my entire life but recently picked up PRS shooting 2 years ago. I have one rifle and one load. My first two matches I went to with a single paper dope chart printed off the internet from JBM. It worked alright. I had based this chart on some observations of shooting out to 800 yards as well as weather data from the weather channel on the day of the shoot.

My second year, I trued my velocity and the chart some more by shooting further distances and recording actual drops compared to what the calculator told me. I then build charts based on Density altitude in 500 ft increments. I highly recommend going with DA if you are going to be building multiple charts, rather than having to input temp, pressure, humidity, etc. DA is essentially a one stop shop. The only issue is that without a Kestrel, I was asking other shooters 5-6 times a day what the DA was before I shot a stage. This system worked very well for me but it also took me 2 years to get the calculations and dopes trued up to what I was actually seeing in the field. Keep in mind I actually trued the chart up without a Chronograph, so that would have saved me some time had I had one. I definitely recommend at least a Magnetospeed sporter if you do not have a Chrono already.

Fast forward to right now... I ordered a Kestrel 5700 Elite with Link. I uploaded my bullet data and velocity from a chrono and it filled out my ballistic chart in my Kestrel within 0.1 MRAD at 1500 yards compared to my paper dope charts. The kestrel updates everything live based on atmospheric conditions and it also helps me figure out wind holds, which were rather tough with a paper chart. I will still carry my paper charts but having the kestrel is worlds more convenient. Plus, if I ever want to change loads, I can just put another load into the Kestrel and I trust the data rather than needing to build a complete new chart.

 

[762libertarian]

Thank you for sharing that! I'm probably getting a Kestrel either way, but I'm undecided on which one to get. I have a chronograph already, so I can record my muzzle velocity at various temperatures and get a good idea of how my standard load is affected by temperature changes. With the (almost any) Kestrel I can get the current air pressure.

Basically, is it really worth it to keep my data in the Kestrel instead of on paper? I feel like I could get pretty far with a bunch of tables (like a 3x5 matrix of tables to account for pressure and temperature), or maybe use an app if I feel like the tables aren't enough.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I did that whole multiple data charts thing for ages and then I came into the 21st century and got a Kestrel 5700 Elite and haven't looked back. While I was at it I got a Hawk Hill Data Card Holder. The Hawk Hill package comes with everything you need to start using it but I stopped by the hardware store and picked up some green painter's tape, sharpies, and a pack of 3M Dual Lock strips. Normally I use the blank card that comes with the data card holder with sections of tape over it to reference by data. The data card holder has enough strength though to hold the Kestrel so on some stages I'll affix my Kestrel right to the data holder.

Is this set up expensive? Yep, but it has been worth every penny.

 

[jbailey]

Another big believer in the 5700 here.

I'm heading out to MT this weekend and plan on managing ballistics for 3 guns/shooters (all different loads) on multiple targets out to ranges in excess of 2200yds. My objective is firing solutions for all 3 guns in under 5 seconds. This is same trip I did 2 years ago. Then, I was able to put rounds on target, repeatedly, within seconds based on the firing solutions the 5700 was spitting out. Custom drag curves, MV sensitivities to temparture, coriolis effect, spin drift, environmental, etc. all tracked and updated in real time.

The unit is tough as hell too, I beat my gear up hard and it is a lot tougher than a smart phone (I have busted 3 of them).

For me, the thing works and I love it. If you do get one, there is some learning curve getting up to speed on use. And the old saying "garbage in, garbage out" of course applies. The inputs are not as easy as a smart phone, with lots more buttons to click and screens to scroll thru... that is the downside for me.

 

[Diver160651]

Hello,

I'm not a new shooter but I'm slowly progressing into the style of shooting that is discussed here on the Hide.

I'm looking at getting a Kestrel, and I see that the most popular version seems to be the 5700, that contains trajectory data and calculates your firing solution. My gut preference is to have the ballistic dope on paper, and just use the Kestrel and rangefinder/inclinometer to figure out what data to use. I'm comfortable with having things written down like that, and I'd rather have the data logistics on paper than in some kind of bluetooth/app/USB-cable/firmware update/forgot the battery charger mess.

I'm thinking I'd just need a small set of tables for each cartridge/rifle combination, and then I could choose the one that is close enough based on temperature and pressure, based on my collected data on muzzle velocity changes and (calculated) data on air pressure changes. Where I live and for the ranges I shoot at, pressure is only a relevant factor in extreme cases, but the temperature changes enough to be relevant.

If I go this way, then I'd go with a cheaper Kestrel and instead invest in some notebooks and some lamination paper for when I've filled out the tables.

Do you think I*m going to change my mind and have to go back and get "the right" Kestrel? Am I missing a "cry once" moment? Again - I just picked a LRF/binocular combination without the possibility to enter ballistic data, because I don't feel the need to integrate the data that is unique to my rifle & cartridge with a gadget.

Personally I think the 5700 AB with connectivity is worth every penny, especially if you travel a bunch and hunt. That said I do not use it much.

What you'll find is that day to day at the same location the baro changes, don't come into play. Even inside 600 yards fast moving rounds aren't subjected to most daily temp changes.. So a dope card is still super valuable and faster than relining on a 5700. The point being, don't burry yourself into the device. But ya, I'd spend for it.

 

[CShooter92]

I'm fairly new to the 5700, but is there a way to print off a copy of the dope chart on the kestrel (or smart phone) to have in my pack for quick reference?

 

[jbailey]

I'm fairly new to the 5700, but is there a way to print off a copy of the dope chart on the kestrel (or smart phone) to have in my pack for quick reference?

Not that I'm aware of, but maybe with the smart phone functions. You could always do it the old fashion way and write down the info with a pen and paper. But you could ask @DocUSMCRetired as he is the expert.

 

[LawnMM]

I feel like I could get pretty far with a bunch of tables (like a 3x5 matrix of tables to account for pressure and temperature), or maybe use an app if I feel like the tables aren't enough.

Here's the deal. DA charts work well, but come with some disadvantages.

For starters, you need a Kestrel anyway to keep an eye on the DA. Some places are more stable than others. Colorado in spring/fall is notorious for huge temperature swings during the day.

So if you have to carry a Kestrel anyway, why do the extra work?

Second, DA charts all use g1/g7 models for flight data. Maybe Hornady uses their 4dof models? G1/G7 are accurate and work pretty well on supersonic flight, but you occasionally need to true them.

The Kestrel Elite uses the applied ballistics library of custom drag curves. Not a model, real flight data for that specific bullet. They were the first to do this, they continue to do it, they are constantly updating the models, now they're using Doppler data.

It's as accurate as you can possibly get. In my experience all you need is the custom curve and a good MV from a Magnetospeed or Labradar and you're immediately getting spot on firing solutions.

Can you do it with charts, yes, is it as good? I say no. It's 2019 if you're shooting for fun on your own range do what you want, if you plan to compete get the Kestrel.

It's a hardened device and isn't prone to failure. Bring a chart for backup but I doubt you'll ever use it.

 

[CShooter92]

Not that I'm aware of, but maybe with the smart phone functions. You could always do it the old fashion way and write down the info with a pen and paper. But you could ask @DocUSMCRetired as he is the expert.

Haha ya I know I could just copy it over. I was just curious if I could export it as an excel file for simplicity

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Yes I believe you can export and print data cards with the Kestrel Elite. From what I read you do it from the multiple target engagement card so I think you're limited to 10 rows of data. It talks about this specifically on page 5 of the attached pdf.

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/User%20Guides/Kestrel%20LiNK%20Ballistics.pdf

 

[762libertarian]

Well I'm kinda torn.

I'm not doing the kind of advanced long range shooting that requires me to have to predict trajectories out past 1000 yards with changing atmospheric conditions. Realistically, I'll get my shooting done just fine with some tables and knowledge on how my M_V changes with temperature.

I really could use a wind meter though, and it would be cool to have an integrated thermometer in it. The manometer wouldn't hurt. Then again, I expect to ramp up my shooting during the coming years... Thank you all for your input.

 

[_Windrider_]

Here's the deal. DA charts work well, but come with some disadvantages.

For starters, you need a Kestrel anyway to keep an eye on the DA. Some places are more stable than others. Colorado in spring/fall is notorious for huge temperature swings during the day.

So if you have to carry a Kestrel anyway, why do the extra work?

Second, DA charts all use g1/g7 models for flight data. Maybe Hornady uses their 4dof models? G1/G7 are accurate and work pretty well on supersonic flight, but you occasionally need to true them.

The Kestrel Elite uses the applied ballistics library of custom drag curves. Not a model, real flight data for that specific bullet. They were the first to do this, they continue to do it, they are constantly updating the models, now they're using Doppler data.

It's as accurate as you can possibly get. In my experience all you need is the custom curve and a good MV from a Magnetospeed or Labradar and you're immediately getting spot on firing solutions.

Can you do it with charts, yes, is it as good? I say no. It's 2019 if you're shooting for fun on your own range do what you want, if you plan to compete get the Kestrel.

It's a hardened device and isn't prone to failure. Bring a chart for backup but I doubt you'll ever use it.

FYI, DA changes about 1000 ft per 15 degrees F from standard temp. Using just standard lapse rates and temperatures you can get DA within 2-300 feet by just doing that.

Example:
Elevation 3000 ft
Temp 80 F

Standard temp is (approx) 50 F

DA is approx 5000 ft

(80-50)/15 = 2.

Add 2000 to elevation to get 5000 DA

Having said all that.....just buy the kestrel and save yourself a lot of regret and heartache. It’s an essential tool.

 

[LawnMM]

I still have an fdac with the DA chart on it, you can figure it out without a Kestrel for sure, just commenting anecdotally that I get a lot of "What's the DA" questions from people without a Kestrel at matches.

Suppose that would have been better to include earlier.

 

[762libertarian]

I'm getting a Kestrel. Question is 2700 vs 5700. Might have been unclear on that.

 

[LawnMM]

5700 Elite AB and be done

 

[CShooter92]

5700 Elite AB and be done

I'd get the one with LINK as well. It's very convenient to upload profiles from your smart phone