Suppressors Ordering a suppressor for someone else?

[AFancyPenguin]

Long story short, I would like to order a suppressor for a friend as a gift. I wanted to pay for the can itself but wanted to have it delivered to his FFL. He'd pay the tax stamp, fill out the 4473 paperwork and pay the FFL fees. From my research this isn't illegal, correct? I'm not trying nor do I want to do this illegally, but I want to make sure.

For the FFLs here, is that a problem? Anyway suggestions to make this go as smoothly as possible? Thanks for any help.

 

[FuhQ]

 

[AFancyPenguin]

View attachment 8163454

Why? I'm asking an honest question? Can you provide a reason it's illegal if the paper work is filled out by him?

 

[FuhQ]

Why? I'm asking an honest question? Can you provide a reason it's illegal if the paper work is filled out by him?

Well, other than the fact this sounds a bit straw-purchasey... Which is illegal.

On a 4473, the very first questions it asks you in the check-boxes underneath your demographic information is "Are you the actual purchaser of this firearm?" And you're supposed to check Yes. If someone else bought it for you, that's a "No". And if you select "Yes", then you just lied on a Federal form. And bank records and such can prove their case, and you both end up in Club Fed...Or trying to prove your innocence, which is going to be hard when they can use the ambiguous motive of "intent" against you. It's kind of hard to disprove them, which is why they use it.

I don't think there's any legal way to just gift someone an NFA item, unless they were already an RP on your Form 4 & trust, and were already background checked and approved by the ATF to be in possession of said item. It's quite a bit different (federally regulated item) than buying a hunting rifle for your kid, or a relative, or something like that.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Just send your buddy a prepaid visa card or a check and tell him what you want him to do with it and avoid entirely anything that may land you in a federal court. It's too easy. There's nothing about this that sounds like a good idea, while giving your friend money and direction is the simplest thing ever and is perfectly legal.

 

[E. Bryant]

There is no problem with what you're proposing. You'd pay for the can at the vendor of your choice, it will then transfer to your friend's SOT on a Form 3, and your friend would submit the Form 4. Since it's not in your possession at any time, it's not a straw purchase.

The glowie shit is sometimes funny in the Bear Pit, but has no place here IMO.

 

[OREGUN]

Well, other than the fact this sounds a bit straw-purchasey... Which is illegal.

On a 4473, the very first questions it asks you in the check-boxes underneath your demographic information is "Are you the actual purchaser of this firearm?" And you're supposed to check Yes. If you bought it for someone else, that's a "No". And if you select "Yes", then you just lied on a Federal form.

I don't think there's any legal way to just gift someone an NFA item. It's quite a bit different (federally regulated item) than buying a hunting rifle for your kid, or a relative, or something like that.

But this guy wouldn’t fill out the 4437, would he?…that would be done by the transferee at the place where the transfer actually happens….like, in the local shop. Silencerco doesn’t care where the money comes from. So, I guess I’m with E. on this

 

[SDet]

I've done this, zero problems

 

[FuhQ]

There is no problem with what you're proposing. You'd pay for the can at the vendor of your choice, it will then transfer to your friend's SOT on a Form 3, and your friend would submit the Form 4. Since it's not in your possession at any time, it's not a straw purchase.

The glowie shit is sometimes funny in the Bear Pit, but has no place here IMO.

I like my friends, and trust them (for the most part), but they do occasionally have a stupid-streak. And not to mention our justice system is fucking retarded and you can sue anyone for anything these days. So, with that said, I'm not going on record being associate with buying anyone anything federally regulated that could also get me in trouble for their legal misuse or stupidity. But by all means, you do you, boo.

 

[AFancyPenguin]

Well, other than the fact this sounds a bit straw-purchasey... Which is illegal.

On a 4473, the very first questions it asks you in the check-boxes underneath your demographic information is "Are you the actual purchaser of this firearm?" And you're supposed to check Yes. If someone else bought it for you, that's a "No". And if you select "Yes", then you just lied on a Federal form. And bank records and such can prove their case, and you both end up in Club Fed...Or trying to prove your innocence, which is going to be hard when they can use the ambiguous motive of "intent" against you. It's kind of hard to disprove them, which is why they use it.

I don't think there's any legal way to just gift someone an NFA item, unless they were already an RP on your Form 4 & trust, and were already background checked and approved by the ATF to be in possession of said item. It's quite a bit different (federally regulated item) than buying a hunting rifle for your kid, or a relative, or something like that.

Are you an FFL? I'm not trying to start shit honestly. I am seriously trying to get all the info I can because my research agrees with the others but there is no black and white answer that I can find written. I'm hesitant to ask the ATF for the obvious reasons that previous curiousity questions have gotten the community in a worse off position.

 

[AFancyPenguin]

I like my friends, and trust them (for the most part), but they do occasionally have a stupid-streak. And not to mention our justice system is fucking retarded and you can sue anyone for anything these days. So, with that said, I'm not going on record being associate with buying anyone anything federally regulated that could also get me in trouble for their legal misuse or stupidity. But by all means, you do you, boo.

How would this be connected to me? How is this different than buying a firearm for a family member for a gift and having them pick it up at their FFL? Th le background check and everything associated with it is tied to them. If they pass the check and lawfully fill out the 4473 it's between the FFL, the FBI and the transferee isn't it?

 

[FuhQ]

Are you an FFL? I'm not trying to start shit honestly. I am seriously trying to get all the info I can because my research agrees with the others but there is no black and white answer that I can find written. I'm hesitant to ask the ATF for the obvious reasons that previous curiousity questions have gotten the community in a worse off position.

No, but I've filled out a whole lot of 4473's over the last 20 years...So I do know what they say.

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, but I sure wouldn't stick my neck out there for someone else, but that's just me. There's been a few folks that gave you some solid advice earlier in the thread about how to do things perfectly legal. I'm not advising one way or another, just giving my personal thoughts and opinions.

 

[AFancyPenguin]

No, but I've filled out a whole lot of 4473's over the last 20 years...So I do know what they say.

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, but I sure wouldn't stick my neck out there for someone else, but that's just me. There's been a few folks that gave you some solid advice earlier in the thread about how to do things perfectly legal. I'm not advising one way or another, just giving my personal thoughts and opinions.

I have also filled out a lot but that doesn't make me or you an expert. I appreciate your opinion tho.

 

[FuhQ]

How would this be connected to me? How is this different than buying a firearm for a family member for a gift and having them pick it up at their FFL? Th le background check and everything associated with it is tied to them. If they pass the check and lawfully fill out the 4473 it's between the FFL, the FBI and the transferee isn't it?

Sure, until they dig deeper and find that you bought the item for them. Then they drag you into court to testify as to why you bought them said item. I'm not saying you did anything wrong by buying it for them, just saying I prefer to avoid any hassle.

 

[FuhQ]

I have also filled out a lot but that doesn't make me or you an expert. I appreciate your opinion tho.

Never once claimed to be. Just trying to be helpful and keep people out of potential trouble. Life (and the government) has a way of coming up with some really interesting and usual ways of screwing you when you least expect it. I try to not put myself in those positions to be screwed. That's all I was saying.

 

[cjs88]

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/terminology/general-terms/straw-purchase/

"A straw purchase is any purchase in which a second person agrees to acquire a firearm for someone else. This is not the same thing as purchasing a firearm as a genuine, bonafide gift. It is legal to purchase a firearm as a gift for another, since you are actually buying the firearm for yourself to gift to another. However, it is illegal to purchase a firearm posing as the real buyer for someone else. If you do, it is called a straw purchase because the person posing as the buyer likely has a clean background and is doing so on behalf of another, often because that second person may not pass the background check."

 

[TheOE800]

Well, other than the fact this sounds a bit straw-purchasey... Which is illegal.

On a 4473, the very first questions it asks you in the check-boxes underneath your demographic information is "Are you the actual purchaser of this firearm?" And you're supposed to check Yes. If someone else bought it for you, that's a "No". And if you select "Yes", then you just lied on a Federal form. And bank records and such can prove their case, and you both end up in Club Fed...Or trying to prove your innocence, which is going to be hard when they can use the ambiguous motive of "intent" against you. It's kind of hard to disprove them, which is why they use it.

I don't think there's any legal way to just gift someone an NFA item, unless they were already an RP on your Form 4 & trust, and were already background checked and approved by the ATF to be in possession of said item. It's quite a bit different (federally regulated item) than buying a hunting rifle for your kid, or a relative, or something like that.

It’s not anywhere near a straw purchase, shut up.

 

[cjs88]

Only thing is it says firearm, not NFA item. So Idk...

 

[TheOE800]

Only thing is it says firearm, not NFA item. So Idk...

Suppressor is a firearm.

 

[cjs88]

It’s not anywhere near a straw purchase, shut up.

I was going to say that too but wanted to look it up before to make sure I was right. A straw purchase is the firearm equivalent of having you/someone pee in a cup so you/your friend who is a druggy can pass the drug test.

 

[TheOE800]

I was going to say that too but wanted to look it up before to make sure I was right. A straw purchase is the firearm equivalent of having you/someone pee in a cup so you/your friend who is a druggy can pass the drug test.

It’s going to his buddy’s FFL, his buddy is doing a 4473, his buddy is doing a form 4…there’s no straw purchase. Now, if he bought it (actually doesn’t matter who bought it), his buddy did the paperwork, and his buddy gave it back to him? That’s a straw purchase.

 

[FuhQ]

It’s not anywhere near a straw purchase, shut up.

I said it could be misconstrued into it. I never said that was his intent.

 

[TheOE800]

I said it could be misconstrued into it. I never said that was his intent.

No, it’s not legally a straw purchase. There’s no misconstruing it.

 

[cjs88]

It’s going to his buddy’s FFL, his buddy is doing a 4473, his buddy is doing a form 4…there’s no straw purchase. Now, if he bought it (actually doesn’t matter who bought it), his buddy did the paperwork, and his buddy gave it back to him? That’s a straw purchase.

I know what is going on lol. I'm on your side man. I said I wanted to look it up before I spoke to make sure I was correct before I said it wasn't straw-purchasey.

 

[FuhQ]

No, it’s not legally a straw purchase. There’s no misconstruing it.

Do you know the OP? I don't, and I'm not gonna take anyone's word for it either. So I'm not going on record recommending anyone do anything. That's all.

 

[cjs88]

Plus, some FFLs are overly cautious. I'll call out SOLGW, think I have already on here. Went there to pick up two of their lowers they did with FCD, brought our 18 year old with so he could see the place and check out the shop. They refused to sell because they thought I was buying one for him. Said it looks fishy on their books to the ATF when someone buys so many lowers in a short amount of time since I had bought one a couple weeks before.

 

[Zak Smith]

If a RP on a Trust fills out the 4473 to pick it up, but another RP on the trust paid for it, is that a straw purchase?

 

[AFancyPenguin]

Thanks for the input everyone. I'm going to call his FFL as well to make sure they are comfortable with it and so there's not any confusion or misunderstanding.

 

[AFancyPenguin]

Do you know the OP? I don't, and I'm not gonna take anyone's word for it either. So I'm not going on record recommending anyone do anything. That's all.

I don't disagree with you on this. It's hard to toe the line giving strangers advice

 

[AFancyPenguin]

It’s going to his buddy’s FFL, his buddy is doing a 4473, his buddy is doing a form 4…there’s no straw purchase. Now, if he bought it (actually doesn’t matter who bought it), his buddy did the paperwork, and his buddy gave it back to him? That’s a straw purchase.

Right that's my understanding too. I will not be taking possession of it. I should have mentioned there is no trust involved that I'm aware of, unless he starts one after I tell him of this. He doesn't own any suppressors yet. Honestly 75% of this is being sick of his brake while shooting next to him.

 

[Baron23]

There is no problem with what you're proposing. You'd pay for the can at the vendor of your choice, it will then transfer to your friend's SOT on a Form 3, and your friend would submit the Form 4. Since it's not in your possession at any time, it's not a straw purchase.

The glowie shit is sometimes funny in the Bear Pit, but has no place here IMO.

This ^^

 

[Baron23]

It’s not anywhere near a straw purchase, shut up.

Lol

 

[TheOE800]

Lol

https://i.gifer.com/3c2b.gif

It’s not even straw purchase adjacent.

 

[FuhQ]

Everyone is laughing about misconstrued and intent, yet they seem so quickly to forget about the Matt Hoover Auto KeyCard case that just happened like last month... I don't even care for the guy, I think he's a goober, but the ATF railroaded him over "intent" and that was after they couldn't even get their evidence to work properly to prove him guilty, the jury still got directed by the prosecution to give a guilty plea for him...And like good little lemmings, they did. The government will buttfuck you any chance it gets. That's why I was telling him to be cautious.

 

[kriller134]

If a RP on a Trust fills out the 4473 to pick it up, but another RP on the trust paid for it, is that a straw purchase?

I would say no because didn’t they change the rules on NFA trusts and makes everyone in the trust get a BG check?

 

[Tortuga]

Maybe the simplest way to go about it would be a gift certificate to Silencer Shop. Keeps all those acronyms and law precedence out of it.
Gift Certificate

 

[jetmd]

So if I get a certificate for 100% off on a prize table firearm or suppressor then that supplier just made a straw purchase for me?

Asking for a friend.

And thanks SH for the ignore button, some people are better off not posting their opinion.

To the OP, best regards.
I am sure you will figure a way to accomplish this without legal encumbrance.

 

[OREGUN]

So if I get a certificate for 100% off on a prize table firearm or suppressor then that supplier just made a straw purchase for me?

Asking for a friend.

And thanks SH for the ignore button, some people are better off not posting their opinion.

To the OP, best regards.
I am sure you will figure a way to accomplish this without legal encumbrance.

THIS is the thread that has you hittin that ignore button?

 

[alamo5000]

I wish my friends would buy me suppressors.

FWIW if you want to pay for it just talk to Silencer Shop or whoever you plan to purchase from and let them know that you are going to pay for it. If you work it out like that no one will object to it.

 

[E. Bryant]

Sure, until they dig deeper and find that you bought the item for them. Then they drag you into court to testify as to why you bought them said item. I'm not saying you did anything wrong by buying it for them, just saying I prefer to avoid any hassle.

Just to clarify and (hopefully) tie a bow around this thread - if the ATF is "dig[ging] deeper" on any transaction you've conducted, it's highly likely you already done fucked up in some other fashion. And by that, I mean you're gonna get indicted on several other felonies and fed.gov is simply looking for opportunities to put you away even longer.

I'm an 07/02 (admittedly not with the extensive experience of many others you may find in the NFA world). If my IOI walked in tomorrow to examine my records, the only thing he can/will inspect is my A&D and any associated Form 3s on the acquisition side and Form 4s and 4473s on the disposition end. That's it. He's going to see that the Noisesnuffer 300 the OP bought for his buddy online came to me from Hansohn Bros on a Form 3 and transferred out to him on an approved Form 4 along with a completed 4473. That's it. Now, if his buddy was caught on the lawn of a government building with this thing, I'd imagine they may dig deeper and then he'll have questions to answer, but they likely won't be on the topic of straw purchases.

I understand the level of concern with the current environment, and I don't advocate breaking the law (or even tiptoing unnecessarily close) when everyone's under the spotlight. But use good judgement and common sense.

 

[jetmd]

THIS is the thread that has you hittin that ignore button?

No Sir.

The Ignore feature lets you ignore a certain member.

Thereby removing his/her post from your view so as to not having to read their comments.

 

[FuhQ]

No Sir.

The Ignore feature lets you ignore a certain member.

Thereby removing his/her post from your view so as to not having to read their comments.

They’re referencing ignoring me. I’m one of those you either love me or hate me people.

 

[OREGUN]

No Sir.

The Ignore feature lets you ignore a certain member.

Thereby removing his/her post from your view so as to not having to read their comments.

Allow me to clarify: I was low-key expressing incredulity that of all the bullshit on the hide, THIS PARTICULAR THREAD (!) is the one that has driven you to use the ignore button.

 

[Keeper22]

I do not own an FFL but, I make sure everyday the one I work under stays safe and valid. This is not a straw purchase the OP is not purchasing the item for a prohibited person nor is he filling out any federal forms, the end user will be responsible for completetinng and passing the appropriate checks/ paperwork. A few comments in this section about FFL said ATF might question this by FFL holders wether it be multiple purchases or other stated issues irritate the crap out of me, ATF can question all they want, as long as the actions don't violate law or ATF rules, I don't care what they question, I will answer the question with the appropriate correctly filled out paperwork and that's it .

 

[HansohnBrothers]

As long as the guy that's doing the form 4 is the same one filling out the 4473, we are good. Obviously, if a trust is used, any of the named trustees can do the 4473.

 

[AFancyPenguin]

As long as the guy that's doing the form 4 is the same one filling out the 4473, we are good. Obviously, if a trust is used, any of the named trustees can do the 4473.

Perfect. That's the answer I was looking for. Thank you

 

[b6graham]

two weeks...for a very simple answer

 

[bobb3950]

The obvious answer has been made a couple of times.
Get a trust.
If you already have one add him as a RP.
If not, form one and have both of you as RP.
That way anyone in the trust can buy, sell, or pick up items in the name of the trust.
Plus either of you can have access and or possession of the item.

 

[Crewdog135]

OP, I'd like to be your friend too!
Ain't nobody ever liked me enough to buy me a can but me!

I don't see any issues. I bought my mom (half the country away) a pistol a few years ago. Paid for everything, including some ammo. All she had to do was walk in, fill out the 4473, and go home. Who cares where the funds came from for the device. All fed bullshit done by the one getting it, I'd say you are clear. SiCo used to run BOGO deals...

 

[doubloon]

Everyone is laughing about misconstrued and intent, ...s. That's why I was telling him to be cautious.

Maybe. But what you originally posted isn't accurate as far as the first question goes. It's OK if you're just the transferee.

But some FFLs will get a little squirrely if something seems off to them. Especially the once bitten kind of FFL.

ATF 4473


Are you the actual transferee/buyer of all of the firearm(s) listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) (ATF Form 5300.9A)?
Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring any of the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you
are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer any of the firearm(s) to you. Exception: If you are only picking up
a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 21.a. and may proceed to question 21.b