Gunsmithing Our own Copper/Carbon Solvent Test

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

<span style="font-weight: bold">After 3 hours:</span>

1.9 gr. lighter

Bullet looks basically the same as it did at 1/2 hour. Liquid still looks like it did at the start of the test. There was a fine brown precipitate all over the bullet before I took it out. Sorry, forgot to take pictures before doing this. Have one for at the 1/2 hour mark though, that I'll put up when this is done.

After 3 hours, its done nearly 3x better than what the next best solvent did in 24.

 

[marku]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Ive been using KG12 for 3 years and it some excellent stuff!

 

[jasonk]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Wow....good results. Think I'll find it at Sportsmans Warehouse?

Any warnings on the bottle? Like do not leave in barrel for more than an hour?

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Nope, says on the bottle that its safe for your barrel.

There is however a warning not to ingest it. But, since it doesn't have that nice citrus smell Patch-out and Accelerator have, I haven't gotten any urges to taste test it yet... non-toxic... non-toxic... toxic... oh, shit!

 

[jr81452]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

crap. i did this test weeks ago and forgot to post the results. well here are my results with kg-12 vs 168gr amax

bullet weight at start of test: 168.2gr

after 15min: 167.9 fine frosty look, liquid unchanged

after 30min: 167.5 fine frosty, lightly browned, liquid unchanged

after 3 hr: 166.8 fine frosty 60% browned, liquid slightly darker

after 24 hr: 165.1 glass bead look, dark brown, liquid darker and starting to coagulate

24 hour after wiped with a rag

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Was that last weight from before you wiped it off?

 

[marku]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I telling you guys its some strong cleaner. Ive never used a cleaner that works as good as KG12 and I went thru alot of them. I believe (maybe it was KG12 site itself) did a test similar to this to a barnes x bullet and it flat out killed the competition.

 

[marku]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

http://www.laniganperformance.com/kg12testresults.html

Heres a test very similar to the one I was talking about.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

That's the same test as in the first post of this thread.

Here is a different one, that was conducted in a similar way:
http://warthog1134.com/Warthog_Test_1.htm

 

[jr81452]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

man, i need to reduce the pic size.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was that last weight from before you wiped it off? </div></div>

nope, after i wiped it. kg-12 seems to loose affect as it saturates with copper. after 3 more days it had only lost another 1.2 gr. the liquid was nearly black and well coagulated. after 24hrs i recommend changing the liquid out for fresh stuff (for max effect).

i stuck a piece of stainless bar stock in some kg-12 to see how long it would take to rust. 4 days before it started speckling. so a good 24hr bore soak is fine for your barrel.

when i change bullet makers, i like to put a chamber plug in and fill the bore over night for 2 nights cleaning in between each fill. my bore scope shows little if any copper after the treatment. the only down side to kg-12 is that it does little if anything to carbon. so when i clean before the treatment i use butches and some spray on carb cleaner from the auto parts store. then repeat that in between the kg-12 applications, and again after. the bore is near spotless when i finish. it takes about 12-20 shots of the new bullets to foul it back to the sweet spot.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

<span style="font-weight: bold">After 24 hours:</span>

2.6 gr. lighter. (close to jr81452's result of -3.1 gr.)

Bullet is covered in brown precipitate.

It didn't do as well as in the test in the original post (as expected). I'm always skeptical of results that are being put forward by someone trying to sell you something. I've returned my share of products that didn't live up to the claims. That being said, this stuff was the best copper solvent I tested by a long shot (more than 3x the runner up). So, I'm going to transition to this stuff until I find something better. Now to devise a test for the carbon removers...

Here are the pics at the end of the test:

 

[jr81452]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

"2.6 gr. lighter. (close to jr81452's result of -3.1 gr.)

Bullet is covered in brown precipitate."


hmmm... temperature/humidity variations? why is mine so much darker than yours? my liquid was turning darker at 24hrs but yours looks pristine. could bullet material or environmental conditions be that much of a factor? my test was run at a controlled 74deg with ~38% relative humidity. how about yours? on the other hand, i purchased my supply of kg-12 about 11 months ago. maybe mine is just old.

*edit to add* i just realized that i used more fluid than you did. i filled a baby food jar about 3/4 full with the kg-12 as that was what was left in the donor bottle. if my hypothesis about kg-12 loosing effect as it saturates with copper is correct, then using more fluid would result in more weight lose as the fluid saturates. this appears to be supported by the fact that the gap between my results and yours grows over time. perhaps to get the claimed 9gr loss over 24hrs, one must soak the bullet in a full bottle (or gallon) of kg-12. i guess (if i'm correct) to do an accurate test you would need determine exactly how much kg-12 fits in your bore, and use that amount to do the test. this would also mean that using it on a wet patch would have dramatically lower affect than soaking your bore would. as the available liquid to saturate with copper would be substantially less.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

My place is at 72F, 52% RH. Volume of liquid would have also played a role. These are also different bullets. Copper purity, hardness, etc... may be different and that could have an effect. Probably minimal though.

I've seen similar "coagulation" with Wipeout foam after it gets old. I bought a case of it when it first came out. By the time I got to the end of that case, I could never get a clean patch to come out. It was always covered in orange/brown gunk. That drove me nuts for a while, I thought I had a carbon ring that wouldn't go away.

 

[Clark]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

kombayotch,

I appreciate you, let me count the ways:
1) You had the intelligence and benevolence to make a useful post.
2) You understand what is a controlled experiment.
3) You understand what are third order effects and so can ignore them and get the job done.
4) You followed through to form a bridge with other research.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Thanks Clark! That's be best Valentine I've received all day.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I noticed while cleaning the carbon out of my bore with KG-1 that I was getting a fair amount of blue on my patches. I'd say nearly as much as I get with BBS. So, curiosity got the best of me and I threw a bullet in it overnight. The liquid turned from an off-yellow color to a light blue. However, after 24 hours not much copper was taken off... a whopping 0.1 gr. Its kind of funny though that this carbon remover did just as well as some of the other products that are sold as copper removers.

One thing I've learned from this little experiment is that blue on a patch is not a good indicator of the effectiveness of a copper remover.

 

[Clark]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Calhoon's GT-40 is $11.40/ 16 oz, while Shooter's Choice $7.49/ 4 oz.

And yet they smell and look the same.


So kombayotch, now that you tested Copper solvents, can you figure out what is in them?

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Some are obviously ammonia. Others, I wouldn't be able to say without running chemical tests. I think there might be the equipment and supplies at work to do that, but I don't really feel the need to know as long as they work.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

So the conclusion is KG 12 works the best of the brands tested so far?

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Yep. It doesn't work as well as stated in the test referenced in the OP, but it was still head-and-shoulders above the rest. Basically, it dissolved as much copper in a 1/2 hour as the next best one did in 24 hours. None of the other stuff comes even close to it.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Well, I'm fairly happy with the effectiveness of KG-12 on copper. So, how about that darned carbon ring? I just fought for a few hours getting rid of one. So, I decided to run a little test to see what dissolves baked on carbon the best.

The best idea I came up with was to take some 9x19 brass that had been loaded and fired several times. There was a good build-up of carbon that wasn't coming out during tumbling.

So, for each solvent, I filled the case up and let it sit for 15 min. I then "patched" the case out with q-tips until a q-tip came out clean. I then repeated. So, two 15 min. soaks.

Left to right: Kroil, KG-1, Carb-Out, Butch's Bore Shine

BBS seemed to do the best. Kroil was the worst. These would all do better if soaked overnight, of course. However, I'm more interested in short term performance (for cleaning at the range). This was kind of a trial run to see if the test showed any promise. I think it does and I'll probably repeat it with a larger number of samples when I get some other carbon solvents. I'm thinking of trying that Slip 2000 stuff.

 

[Rhys]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Which of the Slip 2000 products are you thinking. I've got 2 different ones Carbon vutter and 725 Cleaner degreaser. I think I still have some KG1 and could use that as the comparison.

 

[Tomcat088]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I got some friends at the University, easiest way to check the composition of some of these compounds would be to run it in the spectrometer. I don't have any K12, but after seeing this test, I might have to get some. If I do, I'll see if I can run it through the spectrometer and see what we get.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rhys</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which of the Slip 2000 products are you thinking. I've got 2 different ones Carbon vutter and 725 Cleaner degreaser. I think I still have some KG1 and could use that as the comparison. </div></div>

It would be great if you could run them side-by-side with the other products. I believe that both Slip products are identical though. They just label the container differently for marketing purposes.

 

[Rhys]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I'll see what I can do over the next couple days. Deffinately 2 different products, although the KG 1 and the 725 cleaner degreaser are liekly to be very similar.

 

[g5]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Thanks for posting a very interesting thread.

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Your results mirror those that I have seen elsewhere - plus my personal experience, KG-12 is incredible as a copper remover.

Jeffvn

 

[Rhys]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Tried the Slip 2000 725 cleaner, and KG1. I don't have the carbon cutter anymore as it didn't work as well as the 725 did. I got kind of mixed results between the 725 and the KG1. I did 3 cases with each. In both cases effectively all the carbon was removed from the cases (PMC .357) there wasn't much there to begin with. Each cleaner had one case that didn't clean up as well. the cases cleaned with KG 1 had more of a shine as the KG1 removed some of the tarnish on the brass. Even though the KG1 says it contains no ammonia it isn't entirely true. I believe it contains a small amount of amonia used to keep everything else from seperating. It has a mild amonia smell, and will leave a blue residue on your patches in the presence of copper. In my own experience having used both KG1 and 725 I have generaly had faster results cleaning with 725 taking 5-6 patches to remove effectively all carbon after a string of 40-60 rounds. KG1 tended to take a few more. I will take one of my pistol barrels as I know one or 2 will still have some baked on carbon, and try both cleaners there. One with KG1 first aond one with 725 first. Then when each cleaner stops removing carbon I'll switch cleaners and see if any more is removed.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Got some Slip 2000 Carbon Cutter... junk! It did nothing to the carbon in the case.

KG3 did nothing either. That stuff is just degreaser, not a solvent like they advertise. I think it's identical to Birchwood Casey gun scrubber (smells like it too).

 

[C.K]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

If you want a super cheap cleaning solvent that works here you go. Get 26% aqua ammonia with Ivory liquid unscented mixed 1 tablespoon Ivory to 1 pint ammonia. This is straight ammonia so you will have to use it out side.

 

[Mgordon]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I'm surprised Montana Extreme BMG 40 was so weak. That is some super strong smelling stuff.

Has anybody used Hollands Witches Brew??????? That stuff has no harsh chemicals and its smells great. It strips out the carbon and copper out of the barrel. Its really good stuff. Pac Nor recommends it big time!

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Witches Brew doesn't dissolve copper. It's Kroil with an aluminum oxide abrasive in it. The removal is mechanical, not chemical. So, this test is not appropriate for it.

 

[Mgordon]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

In your opinion which is a better way to clean the bore. Chemically or mechanically?

 

[USMCj]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Is KG12 good for powder/primer/lead fouling also? or only copper?

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is KG12 good for powder/primer/lead fouling also? or only copper? </div></div>

Not really. I wouldn't use it as a stand alone cleaner, just for copper. I've only been using mine for really bad copper cleaning because since I've started incorporating KG2 into my cleaning regiment, fouling seems to have gone way down.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: US Handgunner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In your opinion which is a better way to clean the bore. Chemically or mechanically? </div></div>

I like a combination of both (never tried WB though). I've been using CarbOut with PatchOut and Accelerator or Butch's for most of my cleaning. I use KG2 every few hundred rounds. I like this stuff better than JB (have both kinds).

BBS and Carbout are the best I've found for carbon so far (just picked up some TM tonight). With regular use of the abrasive, I haven't needed to resort to KG12 in a while. KG1 doesn't work as well as the above two and it doesn't lubricate very well. Bronze brushes screech and patches are hard to push through. I don't like it.

KG2 is an abrasive cleaner. It's not as course as JB bore paste, and much easier to apply. It has the consistency (and look) of grey epoxy glue. I use it on a plastic brush every few hundred rounds. I've noticed that fouling has been greatly reduced since I started using it. The downside is that like JB, it's a pain to flush it all out of the bore. My trick is to stick the nozzle on of the degreaser spout down the bore guide and use the patch on the jag to "cork" it in. Then I flush out the bore with the degreaser till it flows out the muzzle, then patch it out and follow with a few patches of BBS.

 

[Red_SC]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I just got a care package from KG that had a number of their different cleaners. Jered at American Precision Arms (I think, either him or David) won a gift certificate from KG at the Practical Marksman comp in February, and put it back on the table to be regifted. I got it the second time. KG really came through, they were very quick and friendly with email and sent two boxes of their product.

Tonight I cleaned my .308 factory barrel, that hasn't been been cleaned in a long time, with KG's copper solvent, carbon solvent, and abrasive cleaner. It's been easily 1K rounds since I cleaned this barrel with no accuracy loss, it's a very accurate factory barrel, but it has never cleaned quickly. I was surprised how quickly it came clean, my very scientific q-tip test came back 'clean enough' in a very short time. That copper solvent is some good stuff! And, it has a VERY mild, pleasant odor that my wife highly approves of.

I did try the carbon solvent on my M4-2000's flash hider, it didn't do much to that caked on carbon. To be fair, though, I haven't found anything that'll cut that quickly yet.

 

[Clark]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Fiber Optic accessory for Copper fouling check

I have the 20" one for AA flashlights.

I put it in the breech and look in the muzzle with a magnifying glass.

I can see:
1) if there is any Copper fouling in the last few inches of bore
2) if the barrel was lapped at the factory
3) if there are chatter marks from when the button was pulled through the bore

http://www.niteize.com/product..._id=28&product_id=68


I recently got the LED upgrades for the flashlights.

The AA and AAA flashlights LED upgrade regulates LED current with battery impedance. $5

The C and D cell LED upgrades have an electronic pulse width modulation current regulator. $15

 

[Afy]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I have recently stiched from Robala Solo Mil to KG 12 and KG1.
Was using Hoppes and a local brand of carbon remover ealier.
The KG stuff is wonderful... and certainly quicker than Robala Solo Mil.

Robala is mostly ammonia and stinks to high heaven... but effective as well. Though in my non-scientific way... not quite as much as KG 12

 

[Clark]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

How would Outers Foul Out compare?
How would it be compared?
With a wire to the test bullet?
Alligator clip about the water line?

 

[cmh2007]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

ok, did you test wipeout foam on carbon? they advertise it as an all round cleaner. it seems to work for me.

 

[Bagpuss]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

right..... proberbly missed some good shit coz I went from page 1 to 9 without reading in between but......

kg12 is the best copper remover I have personally used but its just that.....copper remover not carbon lead plastic or much else so ya gotta use yet another dollop of stuff down the tube

their (not meaning yours) test is flaw.... I use a lot of tetra and love the stuff

it removes copper,powder etc fast if aggitated but the makers of kg say it dont move shit,,,,,,,,,,,,

and why??????????

coz some hi tech head who wears a white coat kinda geek person who knows all failed to realise that tetra is a gel not liquid if ya know what I mean

a bullet sat in a low visc sol benefits from solution dispacement so affected solution tails away and is replaced with fresh strong sol and its an ongoing thing until removed

a bullet sat in a very high visc sol ie gel doesnt benefit from this as the affected sol wont displace without aggitation so wont do much if left to stand still

between kg12 and tetra...

I can clean a low foul bbl quiker with tetra, in a high copper fouled bbl kg12 is quick (almost instant) on removing the copper but still needs another sol to clean the carbon

tetra poured into a bore guide window onto a tight fitting woll mop and stoked up and down the bore every say 20 secs does the job nice

tetra on a brush works fast but get it off the brush after or its trashed

now I take my hat off to ya for going to all the bother and sorry for skipping 8 pages

 

[1979Wolf]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

wow, guess i gotta get some KG12.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I did Carbout, which is made by the same company and supposed to be better than Wipeout. I stopped using the foam because it is messy... I'm pretty happy with my current cleaning regine, so I haven't done any more of these tests.

This isn't a hard experiment to run guys, feel free to run your own and post the results.

 

[Tyris]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Awesome thread. I thought I'd bring it back to add: the guys over on silencertalk have been fairly happy with GM Top Engine cleaner for carbon removal. There was a thread there detailing which specific organic acid in the ingredients was the primary solvent. I'll search for it.

-T

 

[reggie]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Hi
The reason why KG 12 removes copper so quickly is down to the following facts, There are very few chemicals that remove copper without harming other metals. KG 12 contains 2 forms of Cyanide, Potassium Sulfide & Sodium Cyanide mixed with De-Ionized Water. ask for msds sheet if in doubt......

This combination with out doubt removes copper like it going out of fashion, the only problem under EU law Cyanide is a restricted Chemical....

regards

Paul

 

[veezer]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I have some 28% ammonia so I thought I would give it a test. I placed a 150gr. 7mm Nosler BT in a small container and covered it with the ammonia solution that has a little liquid soap in it. After 15 min no change in weight. 30 min, nothing. 1 hour, nothing. 3 hours, nothing. After 24 hours there was still no change in the bullet weight. The solution did turn a slight blue color after 3 hours.

I know that this solution will dissolve copper really quick when you scrub a barrel and wonder if that might be the key. You need to constantly wipe or scrub the copper surface to keep the ammonia in contact with the metal. Maybe a slight layer of ionized copper is blocking further action?

Even if this is the case, I wonder how well KG's products would work if you could set up a test where you constantly scrub the surface while appying the solvent?

 

[blksno]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: veezer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Even if this is the case, I wonder how well KG's products would work if you could set up a test where you constantly scrub the surface while appying the solvent? </div></div>
do the test in those chemical containers with lids shown earlier...and duck tape it to the top of your brass tumbler so it's agitated for a few hours.

 

[acts238]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

+ 1 tetra copper removing paste, best I have found ,used for 1st time this am used on a heavy copper fouled 308 =10-12 brush strokes , let set a couple minutes , 1st patch came out purple, 4 patches later white,looked at bore & could hardly beleive it, great product,

 

[coues7]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

kombayotch you are the man! Who sells KG12 cheapest?

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

No idea... I haven't gone through much of it since my barrels now all custom match barrels and they don't copper up like factory barrels.