outfit for Rocky Mountain Goat

[goatboy]

Looking for thoughts about a gun for a BC trip for Mountain Goat.

I was at the Dallas Safari Club last yer and a friend, his son and I started a conversation about a trip for Mountain Goat. We found a couple of outfitters that we like and the question of rifles for the job came up. 270 and 7MM came up. When we spoke with one of the guys at Christensen, he came out with the most definitive suggestion: 6.5-284 Norma. I said that I was expecting him to suggest 6.5 Creedmore but he held on the 6.5-284 Norma, offering it was faster and had more energy, things that can just make that difference in a big, you don't do it often hunt.

So this comes to the first question I'm looking for the Hide-thought on - what would you choose for a mountain hunting cartridge?

Following the 6.5-284 Norma train, we looked at the latest and greatest (factory) lightweight rifles and it looks like Coopers Model 92 Backcountry and Christensen's Summit Ti are best in breed. Both, I believe are long action, and the Cooper is lighter than the Christensen by 3/4# or so before optics. Stock, the cooper has a 24" barrel and the Christensen has a carbon fiber wrapped job in 24, 26, 28". Cost is $3K for the Cooper and $5+K for the Christensen.

Does anyone know the platforms and have an opinions?

Have opinions on shooting the 6.5-284 out of light rifles?

Assume for now that I'd be buying factory loads for whatever gun. That could change but it would be factory at the start for sure.

Last question, whatever the the cartridge and given the $3-5K price point, what does the custom space look like for a mountain gun?

Many thanks for any input,
Goatboy

 

[308Gunner]

I have not shot or handled either of those rifles but I have had a 284 that was around 9lbs with scope and bipod. This rifle had a break on it and it was like shooting a 243 as far as recoil but it was a loud bitch. If it was me I would probably go with a 6.5 PRC or a 4S for the short action. For a super light gun they make them but shooting any of the rounds listed out of a 5-6 lbs gun would not be fun and you are going to want to shoot it enough to get some dope.

 

[B.Bates]

I will be chasing goats on Kodiak this fall, so i have no experience hunting them but done alot of research.

For me i built a gun i am very fond of a few years back as my mountain rifle.

280 ackley, i would take 160g partitions if forced to take factory and break the goat down and shoot him in the shoulders.

The more and more i use my 280 the more i like it. feeds great, holds 4 down, great compromise of ballistics and recoil without a break.

I am not a fan of uber lightweight rifles myself. I want something that isnt overly heavy but enough weight to shoot well.

this is what i came up with

Joe Walls (Exodus Rifles) 280 ackley, for $5k you open alot of doors and can probably get whatever you want built. I am just a custom rifle fan, nothing against those shops.




280 by benjie bates, on Flickr

I need to weigh it but i want to say just over 8lbs as it sits. Gun by itself is pretty light 6.75lbs. The March 3-24 so far fits the bill optics wise until i find something better.


I am also playing around with this 6.5 PRC so not entirely sure which one ill take at this moment.

Totally tacticool but depending on optics it might be around 10-12 lbs. Not the ideal mtn gun weight but we will see how it shoots.

Untitled by benjie bates, on Flickr

 

[ThePretzel]

In all honesty for the prices of those rifles you could get a really nice custom build off a Lone Peak titanium action that will be smoother and work better in dirty conditions than the Christensen (I shot a TFM for a while, it bound up REALLY bad when the dust would blow). For 3K you could get yourself a lightweight Razor TI ($1,500), a barrel from Keystone Accuracy ($750ish if you send your action in, super fast lead times - I ordered a custom cut pre-fit and he had it shipped out literally 2 days after my order), KRG bravo ($350), and a trigger of your choice. It would make for a lightweight build that would almost certainly shoot lights out even in rough weather, and the Lone Peak actions feel fantastic to boot.

The whole thing would set you back the same as a Cooper Backcountry, roughly, and would give you a really nice full custom build. Between the two, however, I'd take the Cooper over the Christensen. Short action cartridges would be preferable, IMO, for the weight savings especially since the SAUM's or the PRC are growing in popularity by a lot recently.

 

[XLR308]

Absolutely nothing wrong with the 270win for your intended purpose. It's plenty fast and flat shooting without magnum recoil or the need for a noisy ass brake in a light rifle. You can find an assortment of factory ammo for it pretty much anywhere you look.
It may not be the sexiest or the new shiny but it is a great hunting round and very versatile and generaly not a finicky round when it comes to most factory loads.

 

[VP47PPC]

My experience runs from chasing Elk at elevations from 6000ft to 10000ft over rugged country and sometimes backpack hunting with a Win MOD 70 Classic 24" bl that ran somewhere between 9 to 10lbs and covering a lot of very rugged Coues Country at 5000 ft plus with a trim Rem 700 custom that weighed 7 lbs. The light rifle is nice to carry and you can count your heartbeats by watching the reticle bob up and down when on the gun. For my way of thinking a little over 8 lbs (with scope and all) is nicest, not to heavy to carry and a bit more solid when lining up a shot.

 

[VP47PPC]

You can find an assortment of factory ammo for it pretty much anywhere you look.

Hornady 270 WIN 140gr SST Superformance shoots sub MOA in my light custom built REM 700 with a Lilja #1 barrel.

 

[XLR308]

Hornady 270 WIN 140gr SST Superformance shoots sub MOA in my light custom built REM 700 with a Lilja #1 barrel.

The Hornady 145eldx load has really got my attention lately, a good balance of weight, BC and velocity.
I really need to wring some of those out.

 

[duramaxed]

Tons of good smiths to make you a rifle for that money.

A short action rifle, look at the 6.5PRC. Seems it will get a good following that will bring good factory ammo

For a turnkey setup. I’ve liked the StraitJacket Armory Packlight rifle.

But again, a ton of great smiths here could build that rifle too.

 

[VP47PPC]

The Hornady 145eldx load has really got my attention lately, a good balance of weight, BC and velocity.
I really need to wring some of those out.

My son used this load in my MOD 70 to make his first deer last NOV. It was shooting 1/2 MOA in an off the shelf rifle. He made a 350yard shot and the bullet went right where he wanted it too. Very pleased with this load.

 

[goatboy]

My experience runs from chasing Elk at elevations from 6000ft to 10000ft over rugged country and sometimes backpack hunting with a Win MOD 70 Classic 24" bl that ran somewhere between 9 to 10lbs and covering a lot of very rugged Coues Country at 5000 ft plus with a trim Rem 700 custom that weighed 7 lbs. The light rifle is nice to carry and you can count your heartbeats by watching the reticle bob up and down when on the gun. For my way of thinking a little over 8 lbs (with scope and all) is nicest, not to heavy to carry and a bit more solid when lining up a shot.

Thanks, I like the guidance on 8# net target.

 

[RTH1800]

Goat country is often Grizzly country. I have used and highly recommend a 7MM in some mag case. Rem, Weatherby, or some custom. Currently I am using a 7/300 Win mag on a CE Xtrem Titanium action. Built by McWorter rifles. It's great, as I am sure many others are. Not a Christensen fan.

One thing to keep in mind is that you can and likely will encounter very rough weather. That can render useless your LRF and you are now back to the old days of need a flat trajectory. Fog and snow both can make a LRF not function properly.

 

[brianf]

...One thing to keep in mind is that you can and likely will encounter very rough weather. That can render useless your LRF and you are now back to the old days of need a flat trajectory. Fog and snow both can make a LRF not function properly.

100% on that one.

there a reason that they still sell a lot of 300 win mags up there. not the newest and coolest (but almost as good, and under field conditions you cant tell shoot the difference), but loaded with a partition or a accubond and many bear and goat have met the dirt.

youll quickly find out the reason alot of guides carry a 338 wm. youll see a bear over a hill so you change direction maybe 45 degrees off to one side. shortly there after you see the same bear a fuck of a lot closer
(they move in the easiest directions as well) and he notices you, not standing but staring at you.

then the guide says "just walk slowly and he points"...your 6.5 super flat shooting rifle suddenly seems not to be the right choice.

not being a dick on that one, had my pants almost wet a few times.

you can look at the ballistic charts but when your faced with a larger animal you either need to anchor it there with a shot to the shoulder, or put a big enough hole so it bleeds out. no replacement for displacement.

#1 recomended griz bear caliber (if you are able to shoot it) 338wm or 375.

by the way that will be a great hunt, make sure you take extra batteries and carry them close to your body not in the pack cold kills them really fast.

Take tons of pics, more than you think.

 

[RTH1800]

A large caliber rifle goes a long way to instilling confidence.

The huge .470 NE cartridges seem large when they slide into the chambers in the morning. Like loading torpedos on a UBoat. When you walk up to 15 feet and face the elephant they seem ridiculously undersized.

I do find the big 7’s with good bullets excellent on Grizzly and goats.

Not a fan of .338 or .375 for mountain hunting but would choose the .375 over the .338 if forced to use one or the other.

 

[260284]

https://www.facebook.com/straightjacketarmoryllc/

These guys build a lightweight hunting rifle if you are looking at a custom. Look at their Packlite

 

[goatboy]

...One thing to keep in mind is that you can and likely will encounter very rough weather. That can render useless your LRF and you are now back to the old days of need a flat trajectory. Fog and snow both can make a LRF not function properly.

100% on that one.

there a reason that they still sell a lot of 300 win mags up there. not the newest and coolest (but almost as good, and under field conditions you cant tell shoot the difference), but loaded with a partition or a accubond and many bear and goat have met the dirt.

youll quickly find out the reason alot of guides carry a 338 wm. youll see a bear over a hill so you change direction maybe 45 degrees off to one side. shortly there after you see the same bear a fuck of a lot closer
(they move in the easiest directions as well) and he notices you, not standing but staring at you.

then the guide says "just walk slowly and he points"...your 6.5 super flat shooting rifle suddenly seems not to be the right choice.

not being a dick on that one, had my pants almost wet a few times.

you can look at the ballistic charts but when your faced with a larger animal you either need to anchor it there with a shot to the shoulder, or put a big enough hole so it bleeds out. no replacement for displacement.

#1 recomended griz bear caliber (if you are able to shoot it) 338wm or 375.

by the way that will be a great hunt, make sure you take extra batteries and carry them close to your body not in the pack cold kills them really fast.

Take tons of pics, more than you think.

Great post, thanks.

I've got Dad's Dakota 76 in 375HH, but I do not remember liking to shoot it very much. I've been a bird hunter all my life and am getting back into rifles. After 20 years on a piece of ground in Northern Virginia, I built a proper berm that ranges me to about 400+ meters so I have some room to play around and experiment. Friends also have some longer range spots.

I've also got an beautiful little .270 Mannlicher that just came back from the smith. Bought by my father in the 1950s when Dad was a celestial navigator in the AF, its a light, nimble little thing, but with a wood stock, I wouldn't want to take it into extreme weather. Being more or less new to this, I'm not sure about embracing magnum cartridges from the start and have some concern about recoil, etc.

But everyone, thanks for the thoughts and, please, keep it coming.

 

[VP47PPC]

Whats a long shot in BC hunting Goats? The country I am familiar with in the Rocky Mountains is that canyons are BIG if your shot is not within 400 yards then the next closest terrain is thousands of yards across big canyons?

 

[goatboy]

The place is called Scoop Lake in northern BC. They are between Cassier and Rockies, elevations in the 4,000-6000 range I would expect. That far north, its above tree line and, from photos, looks arctic/alpine hillside as opposed to rocky crag. Shots are in the 200-400 range if I remember correctly from talking with the outfitter.

 

[RTH1800]

Don’t fear the .270 Winchester or the wood stock. I carried wooden stocked rifles in Nothern Canada and Alaska for decades with zero problems.
The wood issue is far overblown. I killed a lot of elk and a few Moose with a wood stock .270. One Grizzly. No trouble. I knew a guy who killed many African lions with a .270 and 150 Nosler Pattitions.

 

[Rthur]

Sheep/Goats live in steep scree covered terrain.
Mobility will be a great benefit in the chase.
Personally I'd try to be in the 7-8 pound range with 6.5-7mm diameter bore.
Good luck.

R

 

[WeisGuy]

The Coopers are pretty awesome rifles for the money. Like mentioned above some rifles tend to be too light when it comes time to shoot, particularly when we are breathing heavy. The m92 back country is wicked light a wonderful rifle but a standard 52 offers a little more weight in the right places and runs about 500 bucks less ($2500). The gun stays balanced and holds quite a bit nicer. Check out the Excalibur sub models as well.

 

[Joezone]

Another possible consideration would be a Kimber Montana. Would save some money over a Cooper or custom. Mine is a 280 AI. It's light weight which takes some practice to shoot to its potential. Recoil isn't an issue for me, the recoil pad and stock are excellent. Trigger is great too. Really handy on a steep mountain slope. Put a good scope on it, and practice from typical field positions and ranges you might see while hunting.

 

[BurnOut]

A buddy went on a aoudad hunt, and got a solid shoulder hit at ~300 yards with a 6.5-284... had to track the animal for more than a mile through one canyon into another, shooting it twice more along the way. The guide said that's just the way they are... you have to physically break them down because they're tough as hell and just don't give up.

That story was one of the main drivers for me to build a single go-to, it's-in-North-America-and-it-has-to-die hunting rifle. I chose 338WM for the energy, sectional density, an commonality of ammo. With 1000+ ft/lb from the muzzle to 1000 yards, it has the capability to do enough damage to minimize the chances of having to chase a game animal. Of course, shot placement is always a factor, but given the uncertainties of hunting, I figure anything that can reasonably be done to increase the odds of a quick, humane kill are only likely to make my life easier.

 

[ryodlsl]

Also check out Borden Rifles, their mountain rifles are top tier, love mine in 300 WSM

 

[gac700]

Goat boy,

What rifle do you hunt big game with now? What have you hunted and killed in the past with that rifle?

Personally, i’d Concentrate on the hunt, the goats, and not get hung up on a new gear. Your go to cartridge and rifle would be my suggestion.

Good luck and congratulations on scheduling the hunt.

 

[Derek200]

...One thing to keep in mind is that you can and likely will encounter very rough weather. That can render useless your LRF and you are now back to the old days of need a flat trajectory. Fog and snow both can make a LRF not function properly.

100% on that one.

there a reason that they still sell a lot of 300 win mags up there. not the newest and coolest (but almost as good, and under field conditions you cant tell shoot the difference), but loaded with a partition or a accubond and many bear and goat have met the dirt.

youll quickly find out the reason alot of guides carry a 338 wm. youll see a bear over a hill so you change direction maybe 45 degrees off to one side. shortly there after you see the same bear a fuck of a lot closer
(they move in the easiest directions as well) and he notices you, not standing but staring at you.

then the guide says "just walk slowly and he points"...your 6.5 super flat shooting rifle suddenly seems not to be the right choice.

not being a dick on that one, had my pants almost wet a few times.

you can look at the ballistic charts but when your faced with a larger animal you either need to anchor it there with a shot to the shoulder, or put a big enough hole so it bleeds out. no replacement for displacement.

#1 recomended griz bear caliber (if you are able to shoot it) 338wm or 375.

by the way that will be a great hunt, make sure you take extra batteries and carry them close to your body not in the pack cold kills them really fast.

Take tons of pics, more than you think.

Cold doesn’t kill batteries. Drawing on them when they are cold kills them. They actually store well cold...

 

[goatboy]

Cold doesn’t kill batteries. Drawing on them when they are cold kills them. They actually store well cold...

I took it to be an optical problem, that the fog and snow were the problem. Extra batteries can be kept in a pack and/or warmer in an inner coat pocket, same for a LRF. For me the point was not to bank on technology but on basics.

 

[abn31c]

Weight would be down on the list of concerns for me. Goats are not sheep and can require some horsepower. Remember, when you go to the range the only shot that counts when training for a hunt is the first one!
Best of luck to you. Take many many pics.

 

[45.308]

Mountain antelope can absorb a good amount of horsepower living in very steep rock terrain. Their desire to not give it up is at the top of the list for game animals. Its common they fall and tumble breaking horns. The steep rocky terrain at altitude can build lots of character for the hunter. 1500 feet up wet steep scree and you will 100% understand light is right, lighter is righter. I have had many super fit show up thinking they can jog right up a day of suffering on scree, I am tuff, those extra ounces wont matter...you have been warned.

Start riding a bike now on high friction then spin at a high volume. This will simulate the short steep steps in the mountains while allowing the body to recover while spinning. Being fit is more about recovery than the exertion. Climb actual stairs or hiking with a super heavy pack to help simulate balance while wearing a pack. Run / bike SLOD that is slow long over distance to prepare the mind for hours of boredom while exerting energy. If you drink coffee and caffeine, stop 8 weeks out from your trip. Now in the mountains a cup of coffee or shot of rocket fuel (chocolate covered coffee beans) will boost the body with caffeine.

#1 reason to be successful in the mountains is mental state. You have to want to be there. Its cold, windy, snain, your body is going to be tired yet your brain has to say, I want to be here. I have had guys break a shoe lace and go into a fester due to how tired and cold they are. I use to have shake down breaks during awesome mountain views getting into the mind of my charges (clients) that they are in the most beautiful terrain there is in God creation so enjoy the time, soon you will be back to the concrete jungle. Sip water and snack all day, don't let the body get low on fuel. Big lunch drains the body of energy for chills and wanting that afternoon nap Vs another 1000 feet of scree.

I have seen 2 broken gun stocks. Expect to fall and not care about your high dollar custom rifle or Swaro binos, it happens.

Super caliber ammo is rarely found in gun shops. I recommend standard calibers. Seen it happen, hand rolled ammo comes up missing, lost, left at home and now just where are you going to replace it. Next step is to barrow a rifle from your guide that you are unfamiliar with. Most guides want you to show up with a 30.06 that you have been using for years Vs some one off high dollar super caliber. Suffering without complaining and being to put bullet on target is.

Mid bore 338s is Alaska and mountain hunting. Big shaggies, can take a good amount of horsepower to anchor them. While I am not a fan of huge horsepower, when hunting shaggies you have to break bone and blow up their engine. This is not a bou, moose, deer or elk, not much of an issue to walk / run off a couple hundred feet, shaggies tumble so put odds in your favor with as much horsepower you can shoot accurate and of course carry.

Most guides I know carry horsepower for 2 reasons, when their client sees that 416 they are at ease more and if they have to go into alders for wounded booboo, that 416, 458 is not enough. Hunting with a guide and meeting a bear, that is the guides job unless you have booboo paper.

I suggest Tikka T3 SL 300wm with a quality bullet topped with Leupold VX3i 2.5-8.

While I had one and like mine, 7mags not that popular. 30 cals are quite popular, 338 next.

Don't forget to toke your guide and assistant, and of course the camp guy. Says a lot about you.

And as always, follow your guide and their recommendations, not the internet.

Good luck and enjoy your time!

 

[abn31c]

Solid advice, pay attention to above post!!!

 

[brianf]

Perfect advice...matches my experience to the T.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I would pass on the Christensen for that price. I like their recent rifles, I really enjoyed my MPR and wish I didn’t sell it, but no way in hell are their rifles worth $5K. At that price range you’re into a full custom built with a Proof (which is a better barrel) or even a Proof factory rifle.

I also like Coopers but after their controversial contributions to dems years back no way could I spend my money on anything from them or advocate for them.

6.5-284 is also a horrible choice for a chambering if your don’t load. I’m also a firm believe in hunting rifles being in a chambering that your can buy off the shelf ammo at major stores in the event your ammo is lost in travel, or it doesn’t shoot in whatever conditions of the AO you’re hunting in.

I’d be looking at 6.5 Creed, 7mm Rem Mag, 308, 30-06, 300 Win Mag. With your budget I’d also be looking at something like the Proof rifles or building you’re own with a high quality custom action, Proof barrel, and a lightweight stock like a manners EH series or something else along those lines.