I thought I would clean my brass the other day in some hot soapy water to rid some excessive build up of carbon around the neck and then dry them .I set the oven to 180deg c for half hour and put the brass in for a quick dry .Brilliant!!! Went to prime that clean brass and thought I had discovered something no one else currently knew - the pockets had become real firm almost like new after 8 firings .Went to the range and shot a few with my normal load of ADI2209 42.5gr 2755fps -but no!!! pressure ,hard bolt lift and a few blown primers.WTF is happening it must have been me and my realoding -did all again same result .I got 100 new pieces of brass same load and they were perfect .Even that time in the oven appears to have softened the brass enough to make it useless.thoughts or experiences screwing up as I did ???
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Oven drying brass
- Thread starter goober
- Start date
Re: Oven drying brass
I would not think 180C for 30 minutes would be hot/long enough to change the brass structure.
I've done the same thing with no ill result, but used lower temperature (200F).
But did you pre-heat the oven first, or put the brass into a cold oven, then turn it on to 180C???? If you put it into a cold oven with an electric heat element, you would have gotten a LOT of radiant heat from the element as the oven warmed up, so essentially like broiling a piece of meat (or brass in this instance).
I would not think 180C for 30 minutes would be hot/long enough to change the brass structure.
I've done the same thing with no ill result, but used lower temperature (200F).
But did you pre-heat the oven first, or put the brass into a cold oven, then turn it on to 180C???? If you put it into a cold oven with an electric heat element, you would have gotten a LOT of radiant heat from the element as the oven warmed up, so essentially like broiling a piece of meat (or brass in this instance).
Re: Oven drying brass
You were well below the annealing temperature - the oven isn't the problem.
The clean cases are.
That's why you had tight primer pockets as well - friction!
If you don't regularly clean to this level, neck tension changes with the additional friction of being squeaky clean.
You were well below the annealing temperature - the oven isn't the problem.
The clean cases are.
That's why you had tight primer pockets as well - friction!
If you don't regularly clean to this level, neck tension changes with the additional friction of being squeaky clean.
Re: Oven drying brass
Drying brass in the over is a big no no !!!
Regardless of the temp you set the oven too, if you can grab one of those cases out of the oven and hold it in your hand (after 30 minutes of being in the oven) and not burn yourself... then the over isnt that hot.
BUT and this is a big BUT !!!
If you take that case out and you cannot hold it in your hands because its too hot, you have created a dangerous situation for yourself.
Stop using the brass you dried in the oven, throw it away and get over it.
Purchase some new brass and continue shooting safely.
Why would you risk a possible injury/life threating situation or even face death for the simple reason of using brass thats dangerously soft.
I warn you now dont use that brass any further
Drying brass in the over is a big no no !!!
Regardless of the temp you set the oven too, if you can grab one of those cases out of the oven and hold it in your hand (after 30 minutes of being in the oven) and not burn yourself... then the over isnt that hot.
BUT and this is a big BUT !!!
If you take that case out and you cannot hold it in your hands because its too hot, you have created a dangerous situation for yourself.
Stop using the brass you dried in the oven, throw it away and get over it.
Purchase some new brass and continue shooting safely.
Why would you risk a possible injury/life threating situation or even face death for the simple reason of using brass thats dangerously soft.
I warn you now dont use that brass any further
Re: Oven drying brass
Five minutes with the wet brass in the tumbler with dry media, and the brass is both dry and clean. Oven drying is like killing mosquitoes with a sledge.
Five minutes with the wet brass in the tumbler with dry media, and the brass is both dry and clean. Oven drying is like killing mosquitoes with a sledge.
Re: Oven drying brass
No. In fact, damp media works quicker/better. I dampen mine with alcohol/vinegar, not much, then run the tumbler for a few minutes before adding the brass, so the media can complete its expansion before it gets inside the cases.
(...and yes, I recognize the humor...)
Greg
No. In fact, damp media works quicker/better. I dampen mine with alcohol/vinegar, not much, then run the tumbler for a few minutes before adding the brass, so the media can complete its expansion before it gets inside the cases.
(...and yes, I recognize the humor...)
Greg
Re: Oven drying brass
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Drying brass in the over is a big no no !!!
Regardless of the temp you set the oven too, if you can grab one of those cases out of the oven and hold it in your hand (after 30 minutes of being in the oven) and not burn yourself... then the over isnt that hot.
BUT and this is a big BUT !!!
If you take that case out and you cannot hold it in your hands because its too hot, you have created a dangerous situation for yourself.
Stop using the brass you dried in the oven, throw it away and get over it.
Purchase some new brass and continue shooting safely.
Why would you risk a possible injury/life threating situation or even face death for the simple reason of using brass thats dangerously soft.
I warn you now dont use that brass any further </div></div>
Cartridge brass does not begin to anneal until the 300F area. If you keep the oven under 200F you will be fine. How hot is cartridge brass when it is ejected from your rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Drying brass in the over is a big no no !!!
Regardless of the temp you set the oven too, if you can grab one of those cases out of the oven and hold it in your hand (after 30 minutes of being in the oven) and not burn yourself... then the over isnt that hot.
BUT and this is a big BUT !!!
If you take that case out and you cannot hold it in your hands because its too hot, you have created a dangerous situation for yourself.
Stop using the brass you dried in the oven, throw it away and get over it.
Purchase some new brass and continue shooting safely.
Why would you risk a possible injury/life threating situation or even face death for the simple reason of using brass thats dangerously soft.
I warn you now dont use that brass any further </div></div>
Cartridge brass does not begin to anneal until the 300F area. If you keep the oven under 200F you will be fine. How hot is cartridge brass when it is ejected from your rifle?
Re: Oven drying brass
Vman- While I'm sure we can all appreciate the safety concerns, what he's doing is not harming the brass.
The annealing point for brass starts at 300F-350F (~180C) and it takes days at that temp to anneal the brass. 600F takes an hour or so, 650 takes a few minutes, 850 takes seconds, 900 trashes it, period.
I use the SS media to tumble brass and get it clean. I generally cut the tumbling cycle down to about 90 mins though so that I don't clean all the black off the inside of the necks for the neck tension issue that has been explained above.
I also oven dry the brass but do so on the "warm" point, which is around 95-100C (it says 200F on my Yankee oven).
Vman- While I'm sure we can all appreciate the safety concerns, what he's doing is not harming the brass.
The annealing point for brass starts at 300F-350F (~180C) and it takes days at that temp to anneal the brass. 600F takes an hour or so, 650 takes a few minutes, 850 takes seconds, 900 trashes it, period.
I use the SS media to tumble brass and get it clean. I generally cut the tumbling cycle down to about 90 mins though so that I don't clean all the black off the inside of the necks for the neck tension issue that has been explained above.
I also oven dry the brass but do so on the "warm" point, which is around 95-100C (it says 200F on my Yankee oven).
Re: Oven drying brass
Do you have a compressor?
After you have done your washing, and rinsed the cases well in clean water, blow out the water inside the case with air, through the primer hole. Then put the cases on a towel and roll them around to dry the outsides.
The next step is important. Change towels or move the cases to the dry part of the towel otherwise one side of the case, where it lays on the wet towel, will turn green.
Do you have a compressor?
After you have done your washing, and rinsed the cases well in clean water, blow out the water inside the case with air, through the primer hole. Then put the cases on a towel and roll them around to dry the outsides.
The next step is important. Change towels or move the cases to the dry part of the towel otherwise one side of the case, where it lays on the wet towel, will turn green.
Re: Oven drying brass
It is interesting about the anneal temp buit I can only report what happened and at that temp which I will double check to see if it is C or F the pockets were just perfect again but hell the load has slamded my ejector pin so hard back my mate Steve at Barnard will have to spark it out -the brass is very much ruined and certainly not safe to use not that I let more than about 3 off due to the extreme pressure signs .Ihave just purhased a sonic cleaner which is great ! Mind you I put my nice silver bolt in the 1/2 water 1/2 white vinager and soap mix and now it is black LOL -GREAT CAMO I just cant win
It is interesting about the anneal temp buit I can only report what happened and at that temp which I will double check to see if it is C or F the pockets were just perfect again but hell the load has slamded my ejector pin so hard back my mate Steve at Barnard will have to spark it out -the brass is very much ruined and certainly not safe to use not that I let more than about 3 off due to the extreme pressure signs .Ihave just purhased a sonic cleaner which is great ! Mind you I put my nice silver bolt in the 1/2 water 1/2 white vinager and soap mix and now it is black LOL -GREAT CAMO I just cant win
Re: Oven drying brass
Next time you wash the brass, rinse it in rubbing alcohol and shake it good. The alcohol will absorb the water. Then the alcohol dries faster than the water.
Next time you wash the brass, rinse it in rubbing alcohol and shake it good. The alcohol will absorb the water. Then the alcohol dries faster than the water.
Re: Oven drying brass
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Next time you wash the brass, rinse it in rubbing alcohol and shake it good. The alcohol will absorb the water. Then the alcohol dries faster than the water. </div></div>
Interesting. Never tried that before. What happens to the water/alcohol mix? Can you keep re-using it?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Next time you wash the brass, rinse it in rubbing alcohol and shake it good. The alcohol will absorb the water. Then the alcohol dries faster than the water. </div></div>
Interesting. Never tried that before. What happens to the water/alcohol mix? Can you keep re-using it?
Re: Oven drying brass
180C = 356F However, you didn't even come close to annealing time at temp which would have been a good 12 hours.
I oven dry a lot and runt he temp to 175F (80C) for 15 mins and then turn off the oven and let them dry until room temp (about 2 hours) works like a charm.
180C = 356F However, you didn't even come close to annealing time at temp which would have been a good 12 hours.
I oven dry a lot and runt he temp to 175F (80C) for 15 mins and then turn off the oven and let them dry until room temp (about 2 hours) works like a charm.
Re: Oven drying brass
Look I will admit, I have over dried before but its not worth it imo.
Yes im sure he didnt reach annealing temp or leave it in there for 12 hours, but he has fired 3 rounds and somethings gone wrong.
Theres a reason why people use methods other than oven drying...
Think about it. Pretty much everyone has an oven yes? So why do people build brass drying boxs, or use alcohol, or vibratory cleaners with drying media and such. Why dont they just shove the brass in their ovens, which the majority of people seem to have?
I have read from multiple knowledgeable sources that oven drying is generally no no.
I completely understand what you guys are saying and the science behind it but i would have to dissagree that promoting over drying for brass is a good thing. It simply comes across as too simple a theory to give too much thought and those who dont understand the possible dangers involved, might just whack some brass in the oven and be done with it, potentially creating a danger for them and others around.
I can tell you with confidence that if i told my mates to dry their brass in the ovens 90% of them wouldnt even ask me for a suitable temp. They would put the brass in and crank the oven on and dry them at high temps. I would rather potential new-comers not even consider oven drying for the fear that they may not know whats too hot and whats ok.
just my 0.02
Look I will admit, I have over dried before but its not worth it imo.
Yes im sure he didnt reach annealing temp or leave it in there for 12 hours, but he has fired 3 rounds and somethings gone wrong.
Theres a reason why people use methods other than oven drying...
Think about it. Pretty much everyone has an oven yes? So why do people build brass drying boxs, or use alcohol, or vibratory cleaners with drying media and such. Why dont they just shove the brass in their ovens, which the majority of people seem to have?
I have read from multiple knowledgeable sources that oven drying is generally no no.
I completely understand what you guys are saying and the science behind it but i would have to dissagree that promoting over drying for brass is a good thing. It simply comes across as too simple a theory to give too much thought and those who dont understand the possible dangers involved, might just whack some brass in the oven and be done with it, potentially creating a danger for them and others around.
I can tell you with confidence that if i told my mates to dry their brass in the ovens 90% of them wouldnt even ask me for a suitable temp. They would put the brass in and crank the oven on and dry them at high temps. I would rather potential new-comers not even consider oven drying for the fear that they may not know whats too hot and whats ok.
just my 0.02
Re: Oven drying brass
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have read from multiple knowledgeable sources that oven drying is generally no no.
</div></div>
I'd like to read this and validate it, can you send a link or an article over please?
I don't subscribe to the nanny-state idea that certain things shouldn't be done because the chance of screwup might potentially hurt someone else. Instead, I assess the risk, experiment in a safe manner and work out an understanding of what is going on, if I can't figure it out ask someone who knows already. Knowledge fought for is much more satisfying than knowledge handed over.
He's asking questions because he saw warning signs, I don't see any problem with what transpired.
The common household oven doesn't get hot enough to anneal brass unless it's left in for a day on "self clean", even your friends that would dry them at high temp wouldn't hurt the brass if they put it on "broil" for 2 hours to dry out the brass.
Maybe it's the engineering background talking, but when someone tells me I can't do something without an explanation I'm far more likely to try it than not.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have read from multiple knowledgeable sources that oven drying is generally no no.
</div></div>
I'd like to read this and validate it, can you send a link or an article over please?
I don't subscribe to the nanny-state idea that certain things shouldn't be done because the chance of screwup might potentially hurt someone else. Instead, I assess the risk, experiment in a safe manner and work out an understanding of what is going on, if I can't figure it out ask someone who knows already. Knowledge fought for is much more satisfying than knowledge handed over.
He's asking questions because he saw warning signs, I don't see any problem with what transpired.
The common household oven doesn't get hot enough to anneal brass unless it's left in for a day on "self clean", even your friends that would dry them at high temp wouldn't hurt the brass if they put it on "broil" for 2 hours to dry out the brass.
Maybe it's the engineering background talking, but when someone tells me I can't do something without an explanation I'm far more likely to try it than not.
Re: Oven drying brass
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Think about it. Pretty much everyone has an oven yes? So why do people build brass drying boxs, or use alcohol, or vibratory cleaners with drying media and such. Why dont they just shove the brass in their ovens, which the majority of people seem to have?
</div></div>
Because Mamma just don't like any "shooting stuff" in the kitchen.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Think about it. Pretty much everyone has an oven yes? So why do people build brass drying boxs, or use alcohol, or vibratory cleaners with drying media and such. Why dont they just shove the brass in their ovens, which the majority of people seem to have?
</div></div>
Because Mamma just don't like any "shooting stuff" in the kitchen.
Re: Oven drying brass
The best way I have found to dry brass is in my old Dehydrator works geat load up the trays which can hold allot of brass, also a Dehydrator doesnt get very hot either around 120, if you dont have one go to a yard sale and pick one up usually under $20. Works perfect and doesnt get Mamma pissed either
The best way I have found to dry brass is in my old Dehydrator works geat load up the trays which can hold allot of brass, also a Dehydrator doesnt get very hot either around 120, if you dont have one go to a yard sale and pick one up usually under $20. Works perfect and doesnt get Mamma pissed either
Re: Oven drying brass
Page 83 of the "Speer Reloading Manual #14"
As far as i know this is the most current version...
3rd line down from the top of the page
"Cases should never be dried in a kitchen oven. Even at the lowest settings, the temperature may reach levels that could dangerously weaken brass"
Would you like me to find another official publication that states pretty much the same thing?
Ok so brass doesnt anneal until around 300F ? ch'e has openly told us in his first post he set the oven to 180C... which is equal to 356F at which point the brass starts to change structure which according to speer is "dangerously weakened".
Weigh it up guys seriously.
- air dryed brass with slight discoloration
vs
- oven dried brass thats shiney
- potential to injure/kill the operator
- potential to injure those around you
- potential loss of a fine firearm
- waste of ammo and brass
If the discoloration bothers you, or you want your brass dried asap get the hair dryer out and air dry them for 10 minutes.
This is not the type of topic that needs to be defended on such a forum.
The reloading manual says no, so when someone thats getting into it asks me I say no.
Page 83 of the "Speer Reloading Manual #14"
As far as i know this is the most current version...
3rd line down from the top of the page
"Cases should never be dried in a kitchen oven. Even at the lowest settings, the temperature may reach levels that could dangerously weaken brass"
Would you like me to find another official publication that states pretty much the same thing?
Ok so brass doesnt anneal until around 300F ? ch'e has openly told us in his first post he set the oven to 180C... which is equal to 356F at which point the brass starts to change structure which according to speer is "dangerously weakened".
Weigh it up guys seriously.
- air dryed brass with slight discoloration
vs
- oven dried brass thats shiney
- potential to injure/kill the operator
- potential to injure those around you
- potential loss of a fine firearm
- waste of ammo and brass
If the discoloration bothers you, or you want your brass dried asap get the hair dryer out and air dry them for 10 minutes.
This is not the type of topic that needs to be defended on such a forum.
The reloading manual says no, so when someone thats getting into it asks me I say no.
Re: Oven drying brass
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Papagrizzly</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Next time you wash the brass, rinse it in rubbing alcohol and shake it good. The alcohol will absorb the water. Then the alcohol dries faster than the water. </div></div>
Interesting. Never tried that before. What happens to the water/alcohol mix? Can you keep re-using it? </div></div>
I have reused the alcohol as many as 4 times (total of 5 uses). At that point I had noticed that it didn't evaporate like it does when fresh. It will set for several hours before being dry. That's longer than I want to wait for it to dry.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Papagrizzly</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Next time you wash the brass, rinse it in rubbing alcohol and shake it good. The alcohol will absorb the water. Then the alcohol dries faster than the water. </div></div>
Interesting. Never tried that before. What happens to the water/alcohol mix? Can you keep re-using it? </div></div>
I have reused the alcohol as many as 4 times (total of 5 uses). At that point I had noticed that it didn't evaporate like it does when fresh. It will set for several hours before being dry. That's longer than I want to wait for it to dry.
Re: Oven drying brass
I only have to dry my brass after I run it through the Ultrasonic machine and always blow out the water and air dry on towels, but interesting concept, Victor.
I only have to dry my brass after I run it through the Ultrasonic machine and always blow out the water and air dry on towels, but interesting concept, Victor.
Re: Oven drying brass
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Think about it. Pretty much everyone has an oven yes? So why do people build brass drying boxs, or use alcohol, or vibratory cleaners with drying media and such. Why dont they just shove the brass in their ovens, which the majority of people seem to have? </div></div>
Vman, it's simply about understanding the metallurgy and chemistry that is happening. If somebody doesn't understand the physics of it than they probably should find another method but oven drying is no different than drying with a light bulb and a box.
On a side note, I am a mechanical engineer and have ran the rockwell tests (HRB/HRC), done the profilometer tests, and seen the granular structure up close and there is nothing to worry about with oven drying, one just has to be educated enough to not over do it. Victor's booze method is a great alternative and will work very well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Think about it. Pretty much everyone has an oven yes? So why do people build brass drying boxs, or use alcohol, or vibratory cleaners with drying media and such. Why dont they just shove the brass in their ovens, which the majority of people seem to have? </div></div>
Vman, it's simply about understanding the metallurgy and chemistry that is happening. If somebody doesn't understand the physics of it than they probably should find another method but oven drying is no different than drying with a light bulb and a box.
On a side note, I am a mechanical engineer and have ran the rockwell tests (HRB/HRC), done the profilometer tests, and seen the granular structure up close and there is nothing to worry about with oven drying, one just has to be educated enough to not over do it. Victor's booze method is a great alternative and will work very well.
Re: Oven drying brass
Shot in the dark i agree with what your saying... as i mentioned earlier, i too myself have oven dried
The main point that im trying to get across is that perhaps for newcomers, telling people to oven dry may not be a good thing for others that are learning... they might think oh ya i heard somewhere that they oven dry their brass so il try it myself
The main problem is not everyone is educated enough to understand and thats no ones fault. Its just easier to tell people to use another method to stay on the safe side.
Fortunately che walked away with both of his eyes and his rifle still in working order.
Shot in the dark i agree with what your saying... as i mentioned earlier, i too myself have oven dried
The main point that im trying to get across is that perhaps for newcomers, telling people to oven dry may not be a good thing for others that are learning... they might think oh ya i heard somewhere that they oven dry their brass so il try it myself
The main problem is not everyone is educated enough to understand and thats no ones fault. Its just easier to tell people to use another method to stay on the safe side.
Fortunately che walked away with both of his eyes and his rifle still in working order.
Re: Oven drying brass
Please understand something. I am not a great drinker. But I would never suggest using good beverage quality alcohol in this capacity. Rubbing alcohol is available for 40 or 50 cents a pint.
I think it would be a great pity to dispose of perfectly good drinking booze in this fashion. (I know you were joking. I just wanted to say this.)
Please understand something. I am not a great drinker. But I would never suggest using good beverage quality alcohol in this capacity. Rubbing alcohol is available for 40 or 50 cents a pint.
I think it would be a great pity to dispose of perfectly good drinking booze in this fashion. (I know you were joking. I just wanted to say this.)
Re: Oven drying brass
I just hold a really hot hairdrier over them for about a minute. My test for seeing if they're good is dropign a drop of water on them. If it evaporates upon impact, then I know for sure the primer pockets and inside of the case is clean.
Note, I do this process twice. One more time after it's cooled down to absolutely make sure the inside is dry.
EDIT: OH! And the reason I don't use the oven is because the woman of the house would kill me! She won't even let me use the kitchen sink for reloading purposes, I had to install a utility sink.
Same reason she won't let me use the oven for curing cerakote.
I just hold a really hot hairdrier over them for about a minute. My test for seeing if they're good is dropign a drop of water on them. If it evaporates upon impact, then I know for sure the primer pockets and inside of the case is clean.
Note, I do this process twice. One more time after it's cooled down to absolutely make sure the inside is dry.
EDIT: OH! And the reason I don't use the oven is because the woman of the house would kill me! She won't even let me use the kitchen sink for reloading purposes, I had to install a utility sink.
Re: Oven drying brass
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Page 83 of the "Speer Reloading Manual #14"
As far as i know this is the most current version...
3rd line down from the top of the page
"Cases should never be dried in a kitchen oven. Even at the lowest settings, the temperature may reach levels that could dangerously weaken brass"
Would you like me to find another official publication that states pretty much the same thing?
Ok so brass doesnt anneal until around 300F ? ch'e has openly told us in his first post he set the oven to 180C... which is equal to 356F at which point the brass starts to change structure which according to speer is "dangerously weakened".
Weigh it up guys seriously.
- air dryed brass with slight discoloration
vs
- oven dried brass thats shiney
- potential to injure/kill the operator
- potential to injure those around you
- potential loss of a fine firearm
- waste of ammo and brass
If the discoloration bothers you, or you want your brass dried asap get the hair dryer out and air dry them for 10 minutes.
This is not the type of topic that needs to be defended on such a forum.
The reloading manual says no, so when someone thats getting into it asks me I say no.
</div></div>
Ever seen a load listed over book max? Here's real data on it that's qualified information regarding all brass alloys, including catridge brass.
Specifics are available on the same website, this is handier for a single item to reference.
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=d3bd4617903543ada92f4c101c2a20e5&ckck=1
Here's the Anneal temps:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Annealing Temperature <span style="font-weight: bold">425 - 750 °C</span> 797 - 1380 °F Average value: 538 °C Grade Count:252</div></div>
425-180 = 235 *C safety margin. Note my comment above about "Broil"
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Page 83 of the "Speer Reloading Manual #14"
As far as i know this is the most current version...
3rd line down from the top of the page
"Cases should never be dried in a kitchen oven. Even at the lowest settings, the temperature may reach levels that could dangerously weaken brass"
Would you like me to find another official publication that states pretty much the same thing?
Ok so brass doesnt anneal until around 300F ? ch'e has openly told us in his first post he set the oven to 180C... which is equal to 356F at which point the brass starts to change structure which according to speer is "dangerously weakened".
Weigh it up guys seriously.
- air dryed brass with slight discoloration
vs
- oven dried brass thats shiney
- potential to injure/kill the operator
- potential to injure those around you
- potential loss of a fine firearm
- waste of ammo and brass
If the discoloration bothers you, or you want your brass dried asap get the hair dryer out and air dry them for 10 minutes.
This is not the type of topic that needs to be defended on such a forum.
The reloading manual says no, so when someone thats getting into it asks me I say no.
</div></div>
Ever seen a load listed over book max? Here's real data on it that's qualified information regarding all brass alloys, including catridge brass.
Specifics are available on the same website, this is handier for a single item to reference.
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=d3bd4617903543ada92f4c101c2a20e5&ckck=1
Here's the Anneal temps:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Annealing Temperature <span style="font-weight: bold">425 - 750 °C</span> 797 - 1380 °F Average value: 538 °C Grade Count:252</div></div>
425-180 = 235 *C safety margin. Note my comment above about "Broil"
Re: Oven drying brass
Victor, I'm with you on the booze. Shot in the Dark, I appreciate your use of the really expansive almost-synonym.
Seriously, you guys make me laugh, and i don't even drink the stuff.
To the topic, I would not expect such an extreme effect *if* the brass reached only 180C and there were no other variables in play. But neither would I expect three soft-brass bolt thrust events to cause the type of damage our friend ch'e reported, either. I have tried to A/B test alcohol-swabbed "clean" necks with those that were left without removing what little case lube got in there, and the differences in velocity were NOT statistically significant and accuracy and pressure "signs" (the only reliable one for safety is NO signs IMO) were no different.
Me, I have oven-dried when the Missus was not looking only on the "warm" setting, not tested but reasonably believed to be 180F. IIRC (my Palm TREO with its cool calculator is retired...), 180F equals about 80C.
NEVER had a problem, and I've done both .308 and .223 on occasion.
Victor, I'm with you on the booze. Shot in the Dark, I appreciate your use of the really expansive almost-synonym.
Seriously, you guys make me laugh, and i don't even drink the stuff.
To the topic, I would not expect such an extreme effect *if* the brass reached only 180C and there were no other variables in play. But neither would I expect three soft-brass bolt thrust events to cause the type of damage our friend ch'e reported, either. I have tried to A/B test alcohol-swabbed "clean" necks with those that were left without removing what little case lube got in there, and the differences in velocity were NOT statistically significant and accuracy and pressure "signs" (the only reliable one for safety is NO signs IMO) were no different.
Me, I have oven-dried when the Missus was not looking only on the "warm" setting, not tested but reasonably believed to be 180F. IIRC (my Palm TREO with its cool calculator is retired...), 180F equals about 80C.
NEVER had a problem, and I've done both .308 and .223 on occasion.
Re: Oven drying brass
ch'e:
Before that lot of brass goes to the recycler, do you have any way to run a hardness test on the head and/or extractor groove area, and compare it with un-heated brass?
Inquiring minds want to know...
ch'e:
Before that lot of brass goes to the recycler, do you have any way to run a hardness test on the head and/or extractor groove area, and compare it with un-heated brass?
Inquiring minds want to know...
Re: Oven drying brass
Strictly from a metallurgy standpoint, 30min @ 350F on a 1/2" chunk of brass...no biggie. However, 30min @ 350F on a piece of brass with wall thickness averaging .010".... consider it Normalized, not annealed. Theres a difference.
Strictly from a metallurgy standpoint, 30min @ 350F on a 1/2" chunk of brass...no biggie. However, 30min @ 350F on a piece of brass with wall thickness averaging .010".... consider it Normalized, not annealed. Theres a difference.
Re: Oven drying brass
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SnkBit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Strictly from a metallurgy standpoint, 30min @ 350F on a 1/2" chunk of brass...no biggie. However, 30min @ 350F on a piece of brass with wall thickness averaging .010".... <span style="font-weight: bold">consider it Normalized, not annealed. Theres a difference.</span> </div></div>
Bingo.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SnkBit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Strictly from a metallurgy standpoint, 30min @ 350F on a 1/2" chunk of brass...no biggie. However, 30min @ 350F on a piece of brass with wall thickness averaging .010".... <span style="font-weight: bold">consider it Normalized, not annealed. Theres a difference.</span> </div></div>
Bingo.
Re: Oven drying brass
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ch'e:
Before that lot of brass goes to the recycler, do you have any way to run a hardness test on the head and/or extractor groove area, and compare it with un-heated brass?
Inquiring minds want to know... </div></div>
Grump , I have already ditched that brass and wouldnt know how to test for hardness if I hadnt binned it .I also checked powder weight before throwing the brass and it was correct -1 more test I am going to do is with the batch of powder used .I may even try to recreate this whole situation once the pockets loose the ability to stay tight but I wont fire them as the result is not good and Iconsider dangerous -lucky the barnard action is beastly strong so I dont look like a cross dresser with sindged eyebrows
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ch'e:
Before that lot of brass goes to the recycler, do you have any way to run a hardness test on the head and/or extractor groove area, and compare it with un-heated brass?
Inquiring minds want to know... </div></div>
Grump , I have already ditched that brass and wouldnt know how to test for hardness if I hadnt binned it .I also checked powder weight before throwing the brass and it was correct -1 more test I am going to do is with the batch of powder used .I may even try to recreate this whole situation once the pockets loose the ability to stay tight but I wont fire them as the result is not good and Iconsider dangerous -lucky the barnard action is beastly strong so I dont look like a cross dresser with sindged eyebrows
Re: Oven drying brass
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shot in the dark i agree with what your saying... as i mentioned earlier, i too myself have oven dried
The main point that im trying to get across is that perhaps for newcomers, telling people to oven dry may not be a good thing for others that are learning... they might think oh ya i heard somewhere that they oven dry their brass so il try it myself
The main problem is not everyone is educated enough to understand and thats no ones fault. Its just easier to tell people to use another method to stay on the safe side. </div></div>
Vman, yea I totally agree with what you're saying. I don't think oven drying is for the folks with little experience. There is just too many variable that can go wrong.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shot in the dark i agree with what your saying... as i mentioned earlier, i too myself have oven dried
The main point that im trying to get across is that perhaps for newcomers, telling people to oven dry may not be a good thing for others that are learning... they might think oh ya i heard somewhere that they oven dry their brass so il try it myself
The main problem is not everyone is educated enough to understand and thats no ones fault. Its just easier to tell people to use another method to stay on the safe side. </div></div>
Vman, yea I totally agree with what you're saying. I don't think oven drying is for the folks with little experience. There is just too many variable that can go wrong.
Re: Oven drying brass
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Victor, I'm with you on the booze. Shot in the Dark, I appreciate your use of the really expansive almost-synonym.
</div></div>
haha
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Victor, I'm with you on the booze. Shot in the Dark, I appreciate your use of the really expansive almost-synonym.
</div></div>
Re: Oven drying brass
I dry my brass in a pretty good quality <span style="text-decoration: underline"> </span> Convection Toaster Oven <span style="text-decoration: underline"> </span> . I set the timer for 15 min on 225 degrees. The brass is at 225 for about 10 min. I have been doing this for a while and have seen no issues with doing this. I also have the brass wrapped in foil so there is no <span style="font-style: italic"> </span> direct <span style="font-style: italic"> </span> exposure to the heating elements. My oven does have lower settings but I choose 225 because thats above the temp where water boils. No other reason really for choosing that temp. Plus its well below the point of doing damage to the brass.
I dry my brass in a pretty good quality <span style="text-decoration: underline"> </span> Convection Toaster Oven <span style="text-decoration: underline"> </span> . I set the timer for 15 min on 225 degrees. The brass is at 225 for about 10 min. I have been doing this for a while and have seen no issues with doing this. I also have the brass wrapped in foil so there is no <span style="font-style: italic"> </span> direct <span style="font-style: italic"> </span> exposure to the heating elements. My oven does have lower settings but I choose 225 because thats above the temp where water boils. No other reason really for choosing that temp. Plus its well below the point of doing damage to the brass.
Re: Oven drying brass
hello there. i have a resolution to your problem.i dry my brass in the dryer.no i dont toss it in like the laundry duh.we have a front loading dryer with the screen in the front all i do is pull the screen and install a rack that i made with some screen and set the dryer to high for 20min and presto really dry brass without the worry of using an oven and possible messing with the heat problems that could affect or not affect my brass.my wife is not to keen on it but she understands my need to shoot cheaply.
hello there. i have a resolution to your problem.i dry my brass in the dryer.no i dont toss it in like the laundry duh.we have a front loading dryer with the screen in the front all i do is pull the screen and install a rack that i made with some screen and set the dryer to high for 20min and presto really dry brass without the worry of using an oven and possible messing with the heat problems that could affect or not affect my brass.my wife is not to keen on it but she understands my need to shoot cheaply.
Re: Oven drying brass
HI Brian ,
Maybe heat treating your brass in your cooking oven is not the problem ?
You just need to step UP to some good brass like Lapua , its better than that SOFT Norma .260 brass .
Just two thoughts ,
1 ) Maybe the temp controls on the oven are only approx .
2 ) If you are using a gas fired oven , maybe thats different than electric , due to the gasses ( nitrates ) being released as well as the temmp .
Your're just luckly the miss's did not catch you .
We will have to catch up again , I enjoyed the shoot in AKL .
Cheers CHris
HI Brian ,
Maybe heat treating your brass in your cooking oven is not the problem ?
You just need to step UP to some good brass like Lapua , its better than that SOFT Norma .260 brass .
Just two thoughts ,
1 ) Maybe the temp controls on the oven are only approx .
2 ) If you are using a gas fired oven , maybe thats different than electric , due to the gasses ( nitrates ) being released as well as the temmp .
Your're just luckly the miss's did not catch you .
We will have to catch up again , I enjoyed the shoot in AKL .
Cheers CHris
Re: Oven drying brass
"Not cookin with gas" lol-so to speak! yeah Chris it was great cathin up finally with a fellow trigger addict and i look forward to doin it again.just splashed out on a Bll Shehane stock with a single shot Barnard action. Steve at Barnard is assembling all next week - he enjoyed meeting you even with diffrent engineering opinons lol.
Now Im going to put some silver foil on my head and hope my pockets stay tight and no more weird shit happens
"Not cookin with gas" lol-so to speak! yeah Chris it was great cathin up finally with a fellow trigger addict and i look forward to doin it again.just splashed out on a Bll Shehane stock with a single shot Barnard action. Steve at Barnard is assembling all next week - he enjoyed meeting you even with diffrent engineering opinons lol.
Now Im going to put some silver foil on my head and hope my pockets stay tight and no more weird shit happens
Re: Oven drying brass
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Powder Burns</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Drying brass in the over is a big no no !!!
Regardless of the temp you set the oven too, if you can grab one of those cases out of the oven and hold it in your hand (after 30 minutes of being in the oven) and not burn yourself... then the over isnt that hot.
BUT and this is a big BUT !!!
If you take that case out and you cannot hold it in your hands because its too hot, you have created a dangerous situation for yourself.
Stop using the brass you dried in the oven, throw it away and get over it.
Purchase some new brass and continue shooting safely.
Why would you risk a possible injury/life threating situation or even face death for the simple reason of using brass thats dangerously soft.
I warn you now dont use that brass any further </div></div>
Cartridge brass does not begin to anneal until the 300F area. If you keep the oven under 200F you will be fine. How hot is cartridge brass when it is ejected from your rifle? </div></div>
Trouble is he did have it in the 350 degree F range.
180 degrees C = 350 degrees F. If it was long enough to anneal the brass I would just be guessing.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Powder Burns</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Drying brass in the over is a big no no !!!
Regardless of the temp you set the oven too, if you can grab one of those cases out of the oven and hold it in your hand (after 30 minutes of being in the oven) and not burn yourself... then the over isnt that hot.
BUT and this is a big BUT !!!
If you take that case out and you cannot hold it in your hands because its too hot, you have created a dangerous situation for yourself.
Stop using the brass you dried in the oven, throw it away and get over it.
Purchase some new brass and continue shooting safely.
Why would you risk a possible injury/life threating situation or even face death for the simple reason of using brass thats dangerously soft.
I warn you now dont use that brass any further </div></div>
Cartridge brass does not begin to anneal until the 300F area. If you keep the oven under 200F you will be fine. How hot is cartridge brass when it is ejected from your rifle? </div></div>
Trouble is he did have it in the 350 degree F range.
180 degrees C = 350 degrees F. If it was long enough to anneal the brass I would just be guessing.
Re: Oven drying brass
ch'e,
Sorry for your misfortune, glad it wasn't worse. Thanks for asking this question. I use sizing lube and after sizing, I dump the cases in water to remove the water soluble lube. I then put the cases in the Susanne Sommers (you know, the blond chick from the TV program "Three's Company) electric convection oven. Anyway, I put 'em in their for an hour or so at low temp - say 175F. Never had a problem like what you're describing.
ch'e,
Sorry for your misfortune, glad it wasn't worse. Thanks for asking this question. I use sizing lube and after sizing, I dump the cases in water to remove the water soluble lube. I then put the cases in the Susanne Sommers (you know, the blond chick from the TV program "Three's Company) electric convection oven. Anyway, I put 'em in their for an hour or so at low temp - say 175F. Never had a problem like what you're describing.
Re: Oven drying brass
If oven drying at low temperatures where you do not change the grain structure is bad juju. How would you deal with annealing brass at HIGH temperature where you do change the grain structure and do "soften" the brass?
Would love to here him talk his way out of this box.
If oven drying at low temperatures where you do not change the grain structure is bad juju. How would you deal with annealing brass at HIGH temperature where you do change the grain structure and do "soften" the brass?
Would love to here him talk his way out of this box.
Re: Oven drying brass
If I wanted to dry cases after washing them , all i would do is put them in a SS bowl/pot , boil the tea kettle , and pour the boiling water into the pot with the cases , leave them in the water for a minute or so , then tip them into a strainer and dump them on a towel .
The hotest they could ever get would be as hot as boiling water and no hotter , ie 100 degree's C , once they have been in the hot water the cases will be HOT , and any small amount of water should evapourate off .
Failing that , you could just drop them into your microwave oven for a few minutes , and that is a Joke .
Later Chris
If I wanted to dry cases after washing them , all i would do is put them in a SS bowl/pot , boil the tea kettle , and pour the boiling water into the pot with the cases , leave them in the water for a minute or so , then tip them into a strainer and dump them on a towel .
The hotest they could ever get would be as hot as boiling water and no hotter , ie 100 degree's C , once they have been in the hot water the cases will be HOT , and any small amount of water should evapourate off .
Failing that , you could just drop them into your microwave oven for a few minutes , and that is a Joke .
Later Chris
Re: Oven drying brass
I cant be bothered arguing with this topic any more
The point is, reloading manuals say dont oven dry
If you want to oven dry go ahead... simple
If your shit explodes in your face dont come crying back here in a years time, or however long it takes for you to make a mistake, and then blabble on about how you lost an eyeball because you accidently set the temp too high.
Its just like wearing a seatbelt... if you dont wear one, doesnt mean you will die... but if an accident happens then your swimming up shit creek without a paddle whilst having your mouth open.
And to set the record straight, annealing brass occurs at the neck of the case at high temp for roughly 6-8 seconds and depending upon operator dumped into water straight after. The high temperature does not have enough time to make its way down to the head of the case where soft brass then becomes an issue. It is easy to ruin a case by over annealing.
Feel free to oven dry your brass guys, if your feelings on the matter are so strong.
I cant be bothered arguing with this topic any more
The point is, reloading manuals say dont oven dry
If you want to oven dry go ahead... simple
If your shit explodes in your face dont come crying back here in a years time, or however long it takes for you to make a mistake, and then blabble on about how you lost an eyeball because you accidently set the temp too high.
Its just like wearing a seatbelt... if you dont wear one, doesnt mean you will die... but if an accident happens then your swimming up shit creek without a paddle whilst having your mouth open.
And to set the record straight, annealing brass occurs at the neck of the case at high temp for roughly 6-8 seconds and depending upon operator dumped into water straight after. The high temperature does not have enough time to make its way down to the head of the case where soft brass then becomes an issue. It is easy to ruin a case by over annealing.
Feel free to oven dry your brass guys, if your feelings on the matter are so strong.
Re: Oven drying brass
I just oven dried some 223 brass on 100c for about ten mins or so. So guess I'll find out soon enough whether the little critters are going to go suicide bomber on me.
I just oven dried some 223 brass on 100c for about ten mins or so. So guess I'll find out soon enough whether the little critters are going to go suicide bomber on me.
Re: Oven drying brass
I've never heard of washing or drying your brass. Why not just leave it in the tumbler with dry media for an extra 30 min, and use a rcbs auto trimmer and prep kit to clean the pocket. If your trying to get extra stregnth out of the case to get more reloads out of them before splitting the case stand the brass in standing water and use a map gas torch to heat the rds till you get the blueing color change in the brass allow to cool on its on and you'll get 6-7 reloads out of it, while reloading to hotter heavier loads
I've never heard of washing or drying your brass. Why not just leave it in the tumbler with dry media for an extra 30 min, and use a rcbs auto trimmer and prep kit to clean the pocket. If your trying to get extra stregnth out of the case to get more reloads out of them before splitting the case stand the brass in standing water and use a map gas torch to heat the rds till you get the blueing color change in the brass allow to cool on its on and you'll get 6-7 reloads out of it, while reloading to hotter heavier loads
Re: Oven drying brass
Ok heres a theory
If anyone has tried this please let me know.
Suppose you have a few pounds worth of those little silica gel ball things, you know the ones that absorb moisture.
Say you pour a whole lot of that stuff into a container, and then flick dry your brass and the drop it into the container. Give the container a few shakes to allow the balls to make their way into the cases. Let them sit in the for an hour or so.
Retreive the brass cases from the media and then place the media in the oven to "reset" it so it can be used again later.
Has this been done before and do you guys think it will work?
Sounds like a safe option to me
Ok heres a theory
If anyone has tried this please let me know.
Suppose you have a few pounds worth of those little silica gel ball things, you know the ones that absorb moisture.
Say you pour a whole lot of that stuff into a container, and then flick dry your brass and the drop it into the container. Give the container a few shakes to allow the balls to make their way into the cases. Let them sit in the for an hour or so.
Retreive the brass cases from the media and then place the media in the oven to "reset" it so it can be used again later.
Has this been done before and do you guys think it will work?
Sounds like a safe option to me
Re: Oven drying brass
I think oven drying brass can be done safely. Its just like anything else though you cant be careless and set your oven on broil to 500 degrees and leave the brass for hours exposed to the heating element on the top oven rack.
I personally dry mine in a rather high quality toaster oven that has convection. I set it to 225 degrees and I wrap the brass in foil. I set it for 15 min, which is warm up time and the actual time at 225.
I have not seen any color changes or any other signs of defect and have fired this brass 4-5 times with this method.
The reason for doing this is because its fast. I don’t have hours and hours to do brass prep. This is why I use an Ultrasonic Cleaner. I clean my brass for 2 - 8 min periods and then take it out. I clean and dry in under an hour. There is no moisture in the cases, they do shine. They are not as shiny as some of the pictures with SS media I have seen where they look new but they are very clean.
For me I will keep oven drying my brass until someone can tell me a good reason with facts why 225 degrees for 10-15 min will harm my brass (and then me).
I think oven drying brass can be done safely. Its just like anything else though you cant be careless and set your oven on broil to 500 degrees and leave the brass for hours exposed to the heating element on the top oven rack.
I personally dry mine in a rather high quality toaster oven that has convection. I set it to 225 degrees and I wrap the brass in foil. I set it for 15 min, which is warm up time and the actual time at 225.
I have not seen any color changes or any other signs of defect and have fired this brass 4-5 times with this method.
The reason for doing this is because its fast. I don’t have hours and hours to do brass prep. This is why I use an Ultrasonic Cleaner. I clean my brass for 2 - 8 min periods and then take it out. I clean and dry in under an hour. There is no moisture in the cases, they do shine. They are not as shiny as some of the pictures with SS media I have seen where they look new but they are very clean.
For me I will keep oven drying my brass until someone can tell me a good reason with facts why 225 degrees for 10-15 min will harm my brass (and then me).
Re: Oven drying brass
I have bound brass in bunches with a rubber band and set them mouth side down on layers of paper towel.
Poke the flash hole to break the surface tension of the water.
The next day, change the paper towel.
The next day, they are all dry.
I have bound brass in bunches with a rubber band and set them mouth side down on layers of paper towel.
Poke the flash hole to break the surface tension of the water.
The next day, change the paper towel.
The next day, they are all dry.
Re: Oven drying brass
c'he,
You say you "set the oven for 180 deg. C". Did you verify it with a thermometer?
I've had two ovens now that regulate horribly and cannot be trusted for marked temperature. There is nothing more foul than a woman's disposition after completely ruining a cake on the day of a birthday due to some tempermental oven. One was high by 100 deg. F.
For cakes, I personally run the dial (wife notwithstanding). For a process that could potentially ruin your day in a permanent fashion, I'd check with a thermometer.
John
c'he,
You say you "set the oven for 180 deg. C". Did you verify it with a thermometer?
I've had two ovens now that regulate horribly and cannot be trusted for marked temperature. There is nothing more foul than a woman's disposition after completely ruining a cake on the day of a birthday due to some tempermental oven. One was high by 100 deg. F.
For cakes, I personally run the dial (wife notwithstanding). For a process that could potentially ruin your day in a permanent fashion, I'd check with a thermometer.
John
