Overcomplicating Things

[BoltRunner]

Don't post to many threads but I thought Id get you guys thoughts, seems like a bunch of guys just really overcomplicate things that don't need to be. I'm constantly seeing threads on Chromatic Aberration, Positive Compensation, Velocity Flat Spots, Sleeping Bullets, etc, etc... I've been shooting and reloading for a really long time and I just don't see the merit in worrying about any of this. I've always went through load development/ladder testing in 0.2g or 0.3g increments to find what that particular rifle likes then go to seating depth, full length size everything, shoulder bump for headspace, chrono from time to time to check velocity, and really just keep things simple if at all possible. If it'll shoot 1 ragged hole I guess I don't understand why guys go down these rabbit holes, enlighten me.

 

[nn8734]

You’re spot on. Lots of dumb reloading threads lately. Some folks like getting wrapped around the axle over stupid shit and argue about which way to skin the cat is best.

Boredom is likely the root cause.

 

[BoltRunner]

You’re spot on. Lots of dumb reloading threads lately. Some folks like getting wrapped around the axle over stupid shit and argue about which way to skin the cat is best.

Boredom is likely the root cause.

Not just reloading seems like its everything and I may be missing something but I just don't get it, I would rather run a simple system in anything in life to 100% efficiency than some overcomplicated setup at 50% efficiency. Get your shit setup correctly, go shoot, work fundamentals, end of story.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Basically, it stems from boredom. There isn't but so much you can discuss regarding shooting. I said the same sentiment in one of the threads in question. If it shoots, great; if it dont, fix it. done. This reason is one of many reasons why i cover so many different topics in my podcast outside of shooting. There isn't but so much you can talk about without becoming repetitive. I dont want any 2 of my episodes to sound the same. But this is the internet and here we are doing that on SH.

 

[nn8734]

Not just reloading seems like its everything and I may be missing something but I just don't get it, I would rather run a simple system in anything in life to 100% efficiency than some overcomplicated setup at 50% efficiency. Get your shit setup correctly, go shoot, work fundamentals, end of story.

I like (think they are retarded) the bore scope threads. The one takeaway for anyone reading through them is to not waste money on bore scopes, just shoot the damn thing.

Then there threads where the OPs feel it’s necessary to divulge the most personal, private details about their lives for all the world to see (I guess some subconsciously forget this site is not “hidden” from plain view and anyone can read the shit you wrote).

As you say, simplicity is best for a vast majority of aspects of both shooting and life.

Again, boredom is the underlying driver.

 

[vh20]

Don't post to many threads but I thought Id get you guys thoughts, seems like a bunch of guys just really overcomplicate things that don't need to be. I'm constantly seeing threads on Chromatic Aberration, Positive Compensation, Velocity Flat Spots, Sleeping Bullets, etc, etc... I've been shooting and reloading for a really long time and I just don't see the merit in worrying about any of this. I've always went through load development/ladder testing in 0.2g or 0.3g increments to find what that particular rifle likes then go to seating depth, full length size everything, shoulder bump for headspace, chrono from time to time to check velocity, and really just keep things simple if at all possible. If it'll shoot 1 ragged hole I guess I don't understand why guys go down these rabbit holes, enlighten me.

Agree, but with the addendum that we also need a tight ES/SD in addition to 100-yd accuracy if we're stretching out beyond 1000.

 

[oldiephrt]

ES is meaningless if you don't include 1000* shots!

 

[SilentStalkr]

Yes, people tend to make long range shooting in a whole some kind of secret voodoo. It’s not really that complicated. I mean I’m not trying to be a dick, but...

 

[Milo 2.5]

I have said it in a couple threads, recognition or validation is sought.
Almost as fucking stupid as some newbie posting where powder is available, Thanks dipshit, but you are still irrelevant.

 

[BoltRunner]

Agree, but with the addendum that we also need a tight ES/SD in addition to 100-yd accuracy if we're stretching out beyond 1000.

I'd agree with that somewhat but I also think some guys spend a whole lot of time trying to get to crazy low SD/ES that can be nullified but their shitty shooting fundamentals. I personally got light years better, shot better groups, and was more consistent from spending a bunch of time behind my rifles than I ever did from trying to keep my SD below some crazy low number. A big swing of SD, yeah I agree makes a difference especially at distance.

 

[smithjd]

It’s nothing new. Years ago Col Cooper called it “PII”; Preoccupation with Inconsequential Increments.

On one hand, it is how world class achievements occur and higher standards are normalized. On the other hand, it’s pretty meaningless for the vast majority in whatever discipline it’s applied. Arguing about how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin…

 

[E. Bryant]

Last weekend, I learned that I can't always reliably hit a 2 MOA target if my heart rate is over 150 BPM because I've been sprinting around wearing a 25 lb plate carrier. Pretty sure that minimizing ES will not fix my problem. A couple days before that, I was fighting mirage that was so bad I had trouble seeing a 10" plate at 500m. A touch less CA or a bit better color resolution was not going to fix that problem.

But if people have problems that can be addressed by improving these parameters, then they should feel free to discuss them and pursue remedies. It's not my place to them them what should be important. Furthermore, improvements that they find are likely to make their way back to all of us, so we should encourage that (at least to the extent that it's not harmful to stuff that matters to me - such as trading tracking accuracy for optical quality in a rifle scope).

 

[Highbrass]

While there is some merit to all the load development rodeo. It really is just find the load the rifle likes
..then stop and shoot the rifle. Really no need for all the toys like radar chronos and laboratory scales and all the other junk that you think will make you better....Disclaimer I actually do own all the junk .. but don't believe its needed

 

[theLBC]

i like bore scope threads!

not because i think you can predict how a rifle shoots from looking inside, but because it is a cheap gadget i can afford.
i just use it to see how dirty or clean the bore is.

 

[BullGear]

Let people talk about what they want to talk about. Those who are looking for help will have to sort out the good from the bad information. I'm not on the level of many here. I'm happy with 2-3 moa for the most part. When I was shooting, I did it for the fun and I realized early on that the rifle is the most consistent thing about shooting. Then comes the ammo and then there's me. I'm the one usually responsible for that flier or bad group.

But there are those who have taken it to the next degree. I just never had time to commit that much energy to my shooting. I congratulate those who can shoot a 5 shot group into 1 ragged hole.

 

[Jgunner]

I'd agree with that somewhat but I also think some guys spend a whole lot of time trying to get to crazy low SD/ES that can be nullified but their shitty shooting fundamentals. I personally got light years better, shot better groups, and was more consistent from spending a bunch of time behind my rifles than I ever did from trying to keep my SD below some crazy low number. A big swing of SD, yeah I agree makes a difference especially at distance.

Well, for one, if your gear is squared away and its doing everything its supposed to, the only reason for missing is you, at that point. Also, guys get tired of pissing away a paycheck on a jug of powder or primers and cannot always find supplies. So behind the rifle shooting isn’t as plausible as it used to be. And its still not a cheap sport when it was in its hay day.

Also, people just like to talk
About stuff.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Hey, I just want to add, if you don’t break in your barrel and clean every 5 rounds then your rifle will be shooting 10MOA in about 100 RDS. Also, be very careful not to scratch that bore with your rod!

 

[BullGear]

Hey, I just want to add, if you don’t break in your barrel and clean every 5 rounds then your rifle will be shooting 10MOA in about 100 RDS. Also, be very careful not to scratch that bore with your rod!

No, not the dreaded buggered up crown. Well, yea, that actually will effect accuracy......

See, some thing are good and some things aren't really that important. That's why it's up to the reader to investigate and not take everyone for their word.

 

[BiggBeans]

yupp, like when doing load development. if i have a recipe that will shoot 1/2" at 100 yards im happy and i go out and shoot. There are guys who never really get out because they are so worried they need to shrink that group to one hole. they spend all their time chasing that one hole group. For some i understand. but for the majority of us, sub moa is more then good enough. id rather have a gun that shoots 1/2" and spend most of my time out in the field then spend all my time at the reloading bench chasing that one hole group.

 

[BiggBeans]

sorry, it sounds repetitive. i know.

 

[BoltRunner]

Hey, I just want to add, if you don’t break in your barrel and clean every 5 rounds then your rifle will be shooting 10MOA in about 100 RDS. Also, be very careful not to scratch that bore with your rod!

You forgot an extremely critical part, you must always clean starting from the action out the barrel and never swab/brush in the other direction. Most people don't realize if you clean in the other direction than the bullet is supposed to travel it will confuse it and accuracy will suffer

 

[diggler1833]

Shit...ive been doing it wrong. I always did seating depth, THEN charge weights.

I'll have to switch my order up.

 

[deersniper]

t, I was fighting mirage that was so bad I had trouble seeing a 10" plate at 500m.

Better scopes deal with mirage more better

 

[TheGerman]

Was the same thing when scout happened. We had an influx of people wanting to buy/shoot their cool sniper rifle.

So threads like 'whats the best 1000 yard scope under 67$' popped up daily as well as talk about spin drift, movement of the earth and how you only need a kestrel for your wind call.

Now we have a ton of people getting in/back into reloading over the last year. When I first started almost 20 years ago, I read a book or two on it, asked a few questions and thought I knew pretty much all of it outside of some guys' secret load recipe. The further I got into it, the more I realized I didnt even know. It then becomes difficult to figure out, what do I not know and should learn, and whats just a bunch of bullshit that may help with an .000000001% improvement.

Then after spending hours upon hours loading...100 rounds, because they needed to all be the same down to the fucking atomic level, I realized this was an epic waste of time and altered it to where I am now.

 

[BoltRunner]

Was the same thing when scout happened. We had an influx of people wanting to buy/shoot their cool sniper rifle.

So threads like 'whats the best 1000 yard scope under 67$' popped up daily as well as talk about spin drift, movement of the earth and how you only need a kestrel for your wind call.

Now we have a ton of people getting in/back into reloading over the last year. When I first started almost 20 years ago, I read a book or two on it, asked a few questions and thought I knew pretty much all of it outside of some guys' secret load recipe. The further I got into it, the more I realized I didnt even know. It then becomes difficult to figure out, what do I not know and should learn, and whats just a bunch of bullshit that may help with an .000000001% improvement.

Then after spending hours upon hours loading...100 rounds, because they needed to all be the same down to the fucking atomic level, I realized this was an epic waste of time and altered it to where I am now.

This is exactly what I mean, not saying those guys aren't free to waste time on whatever they want but Jesus H the fuckin amount of time spent on some of this shit is astounding. I feel like some of them would spend 6 months researching the best sock material to run a marathon in before they ever started jogging or even had shoes.

 

[E. Bryant]

Better scopes deal with mirage more better

Well then, I'll get right to replacing that POS Atacr 7-35x that couldn't handle a few hundred yards of sand that had been sitting out in the sun all afternoon. Recommendations?

 

[deersniper]

Well then, I'll get right to replacing that POS Atacr 7-35x that couldn't handle a few hundred yards of sand that had been sitting out in the sun all afternoon. Recommendations?

Of course. ZCO

 

[vinniedelpino]

So where do you guys stop in the pursuit of accuracy? In other words, what are the important things, and what's picking fly shit out of the pepper?

For example:

Important- Consistent charge weight, seating depth etc.

Fly shit stuff- Neck turning, squeaky clean brass etc.

In other words, what's worth the time, and what's not?

Right now I'm annealing, trimming to uniform length, loading within .1gr and seating with a comparator. Where possible, using a collet die too. It's good enough for my purposes. Just curious where time and money is best spent according to the experts here.

 

[Milo 2.5]

.

But if people have problems that can be addressed by improving these parameters, then they should feel free to discuss them and pursue remedies. It's not my place to them them what should be important. Furthermore, improvements that they find are likely to make their way back to all of us, so we should encourage that (at least to the extent that it's not harmful to stuff that matters to me - such as trading tracking accuracy for optical quality in a rifle scope).

So much truth in your statements. But a trend i see is using buzzwords from other industries and incorporating them into the shooting disciplines in a manner to clean up terminology used for yrs. Nothing has changed but the name.
How about the word linear thrown around like wasted sugar in a sour patch kids bag. Like any change in a case being fired is going to be linear.

And just what if some gold tidbits do surface, always going to be the "you can't shoot the difference", so why try. I am seeing and hearing the hornady camp has taken to telling loaders the only thing that makes sense to change is powder, screw primers, screw seat depth. Like a handloader loading for his specific chamber has to conform to parameters that hornady must. That is not advice, throw in the fact powders are not that easy to come by at the moment and it becomes a blatant outburst of stupidity.

This forum at times resembles the democratic party, the bigger the audience, the bigger the idiots it attracts that need a say.

 

[JBoomhauer]

So where do you guys stop in the pursuit of accuracy? In other words, what are the important things, and what's picking fly shit out of the pepper?

For example:

Important- Consistent charge weight, seating depth etc.

Fly shit stuff- Neck turning, squeaky clean brass etc.

In other words, what's worth the time, and what's not?

Right now I'm annealing, trimming to uniform length, loading within .1gr and seating with a comparator. Where possible, using a collet die too. It's good enough for my purposes. Just curious where time and money is best spent according to the experts here.

It all depends on you and your goals.

If you are looking to set a benchrest or elr record, and are capable, you would most likely benefit from the minutia.

For most guys picking a proven load or shooting good factory ammo is more than good enough.

 

[Milo 2.5]

So where do you guys stop in the pursuit of accuracy? In other words, what are the important things, and what's picking fly shit out of the pepper?

For example:

Important- Consistent charge weight, seating depth etc.

Fly shit stuff- Neck turning, squeaky clean brass etc.

In other words, what's worth the time, and what's not?

Right now I'm annealing, trimming to uniform length, loading within .1gr and seating with a comparator. Where possible, using a collet die too. It's good enough for my purposes. Just curious where time and money is best spent according to the experts here.

This really isn't the place for this, if you could stomach the reloading forum, over the yrs it has all been covered, sort through, pm a guy you think is on the up and up and maybe he will walk you through it, but like an above ^^^^ poster said, quite a few paths.

 

[vh20]

I'd agree with that somewhat but I also think some guys spend a whole lot of time trying to get to crazy low SD/ES that can be nullified but their shitty shooting fundamentals. I personally got light years better, shot better groups, and was more consistent from spending a bunch of time behind my rifles than I ever did from trying to keep my SD below some crazy low number. A big swing of SD, yeah I agree makes a difference especially at distance.

What I was talking about was, it takes more than tiny groups at 100 to be consistent at ELR. My guns all shoot incredibly well at 100 yds with factory Hornady and Berger Match ammo. In fact, I can't (and don't need to) improve on it with handloads. But the Hornady is horrible at distance with ES of 40-50 and SD of 20-ish. Berger is much better in this regard for me, but still not enough to keep it from showing up on the target when out beyond 1000. But even modest care in handload development can get the same accuracy with better ES/SD. For me, all I need is 0.5 MOA or better, and an ES in the 20s and SD anything less than 10, and I'm happy. Fortunately, that's not all that hard to achieve.

 

[Mike Casselton]

So where do you guys stop in the pursuit of accuracy? In other words, what are the important things, and what's picking fly shit out of the pepper?

For example:

Important- Consistent charge weight, seating depth etc.

Fly shit stuff- Neck turning, squeaky clean brass etc.

In other words, what's worth the time, and what's not?

Right now I'm annealing, trimming to uniform length, loading within .1gr and seating with a comparator. Where possible, using a collet die too. It's good enough for my purposes. Just curious where time and money is best spent according to the experts here.

Don't anneal.
Trim when they make it to the maximum length listed in the books.
From there, resize them back about .002 from fired.
Skip the collet.
Prime, add powder to .1gr if you can.
Seat bullets, skipping all the extra measuring.

Go shooting.

See if there's a difference that you can reliably hold.

Let us know.

 

[BoltRunner]

What I was talking about was, it takes more than tiny groups at 100 to be consistent at ELR. My guns all shoot incredibly well with factory Hornady and Berger Match ammo. In fact, I can't (and don't need to) improve on it with handloads. But the Hornady is horrible at distance with ES of 40-50 and SD of 20-ish. Berger is much better in this regard for me, but still not enough to keep it from showing up on the target when out beyond 1000. But even modest care in handload development can get the same accuracy with better ES/SD. For me, all I need is 0.5 MOA or better, and an ES in the 20s and SD anything less than 10, and I'm happy. Fortunately, that's not all that hard to achieve.

Id agree with that, I'm talking more about the guys spending all day on the reloading bench splitting hairs over trying to get Sub 5 SD, or the guys that read something on CA and spend the next 5 days looking through the scope in the living room to see if theirs has CA. Like The German said I'm not saying don't pay attention to detail and care of things that will make 0.01% difference, I'm saying forget about the bullshit that makes 0.000000001% difference.

 

[Baron23]

And is it conceivable that for some folks, perhaps more analytical than some in this thread....or perhaps just more OCD....that the pursuit of perfection is an interesting hobby and pastime in reloading and many other endeavors.

most folks are self-congratulatory, can’t see past the end of their own nose, and talk down about others whose values, views or interests differ from theirs. Makes them feel better about their own miserable lives. LOL

Carry on

 

[BoltRunner]

And is it conceivable that for some folks, perhaps more analytical than some in this thread....or perhaps just more OCD....that the pursuit of perfection is an interesting hobby and pastime in reloading and many other endeavors.

most folks are self-congratulatory, can’t see past the end of their own nose, and talk down about others whose values, views or interests differ from theirs. Makes them feel better about their own miserable lives. LOL

Carry on

Hahahaha I have OCD to the point without meds I'll spend forever on things, firearms aren't a hobby it's a way of life for me has been for 30+ yrs. My life's pretty spectacular but I do have a large nose so maybe that's my problem... Maybe I'll get it shaved down and be more sensitive to others.

 

[NoDopes]

Finding a velocity flat is easy, saves ammo and time, is more accurate than shooting 5 shoot groups and hoping it wasn't my fault with a pull or the wind and lets me move on eliminating a big variable when working on my self.

Seating pressure gauge? I'm with you.

 

[Bender]

Was the same thing when scout happened. We had an influx of people wanting to buy/shoot their cool sniper rifle.

So threads like 'whats the best 1000 yard scope under 67$' popped up daily as well as talk about spin drift, movement of the earth and how you only need a kestrel for your wind call.

Now we have a ton of people getting in/back into reloading over the last year. When I first started almost 20 years ago, I read a book or two on it, asked a few questions and thought I knew pretty much all of it outside of some guys' secret load recipe. The further I got into it, the more I realized I didnt even know. It then becomes difficult to figure out, what do I not know and should learn, and whats just a bunch of bullshit that may help with an .000000001% improvement.

Then after spending hours upon hours loading...100 rounds, because they needed to all be the same down to the fucking atomic level, I realized this was an epic waste of time and altered it to where I am now.

Made that same trip. American gunner shoots less than MOA at 100 for me. Good enough for banging steel for me.

 

[TheGerman]

Made that same trip. American gunner shoots less than MOA at 100 for me. Good enough for banging steel for me.

Not just that, its the variables upon variables that people try and play 'lets fuck with this' to try and get some sort of result.

Shooting out entire barrels trying to fine tune shit. Losing their minds over a SD of 11. Measuring shit to the point of having multiple factors of measurement and having 98798097390709 different 'category' of the exact same bullet. Spending $700 to seat your primer down to some atomic level depth that doesn't fucking matter because its not your fucking primer depth being different by .000000379, its the fact that your trigger pull was just THHHHHHHHAAAAAAT much different between shots.

 

[BullGear]

You forgot about that little heat inversion 80 yards down range or that whisper of a breeze 150 yards or that thing or that other thing. God Bless those who can shoot a baby gnat off the wings of a mosquito. At my age, I'm happy to hit a gong at 200 yards.

 

[Steel+Killer]

I used to shoot with this guy at my goto 600yd range he was obsessed with the smallest group sizes he could possibly shoot at 100yds he would tell me about all the brass prep voodoo he would do and I will admit he could put five in a dime at 100yds most of the time, but then he could barely hit a 10" steel plate at 600yds. Oh well I guess whatever blows your skirt up.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I may be wrong, but as always, its the nut holding the trigger that is far more important in shooting out to ranges a thousand yards or less than the difference between a group measuring 0.25 center to center and a group that measures 0.50 center to center.

 

[BoltRunner]

Not just that, its the variables upon variables that people try and play 'lets fuck with this' to try and get some sort of result.

Shooting out entire barrels trying to fine tune shit. Losing their minds over a SD of 11. Measuring shit to the point of having multiple factors of measurement and having 98798097390709 different 'category' of the exact same bullet. Spending $700 to seat your primer down to some atomic level depth that doesn't fucking matter because its not your fucking primer depth being different by .000000379, its the fact that your trigger pull was just THHHHHHHHAAAAAAT much different between shots.

Exactly, well put...

 

[hlee]

If you don’t see the merit in worrying about the nth degree minutia that’s can’t be measured and is of dubious theoretical merit, then you’re just doing it wrong.

 

[BullGear]

If you don’t see the merit in worrying about the nth degree minutia that’s can’t be measured and is of dubious theoretical merit, then you’re just doing it wrong.

If I can hit a pie plate at 200 yards, I'm satisfied. There was a time, I'd like to hit a dime at that same distance. But right now, I'm fine with my marksmanship.

 

[supercorndogs]

I was laughing at someone the other day saying he needed a way to confirm loads at distances greater than 100y.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

But the important question is, do your stainless steel pins that get stuck in your priming hole, throw off the 'field' created by the induction heater before you polish with Unicorn tears?

 

[Numedal]

But the important question is, do your stainless steel pins that get stuck in your priming hole, throw off the 'field' created by the induction heater before you polish with Unicorn tears?

Induction?? Imprecise poor! Bet you anneal by case neck colour too...

Should be using a molten salt bath, for true temperature control! After all, what is the point if you aren't consistent?

 

[rtB]

I was working on tweaking a bunch of different variables. But then I got smart and bought a bunch really expensive shooting stuff. Now all my groups and steel hits are pretty much the same as they were. But the hot chicks at the range all want to chat. Except there are no hot chicks at the range.

 

[Davo308]

I learned to shoot with a k31 and Bushnell elite 10x mid dot scope.

I learned to reload with a 7.62x54r Lee loader and a Mosin.

All in the desert where I could spot my shots with the naked eye. I was shooting at balloons tied to weeds.

Then I got a Savage 10 fp and .308 dies with a lee hand press. 0.3 moa for the first 5 shot group. It was beating from 168/175 grain from the start. Using the same Bushnell scope.

Because of school I had neither time nor money for 5 years. I got a co2 air gun converted to high pressure air. I shot at spoons at 50 to 100 yards, learned to better range and shoot in wind. Varmints paid the price.

Now I use range/wind finders and ballistics programs I learned from shooting job 18.1 grain pellets at 850 fps.

The new 6.5 creed is cake. Won't probably take it out until the fall.

Any who I get more out of gearing down vs gearing up. Its made me a better shooter.