OWC test vs. Ladder

[longbow62]

I will be working up loads for a new rifle soon. I find the Ladder test more confusing than the OCW test. Doing a round robin of a different charge weights on different targets all exactly the same where you can actually overlay targets seems a lot easier to see your results. You don't have to keep track of what bullet went where in the string either.

Am I wrong here. Am I missing something that makes the Ladder better for load testing?

I am totally new to these test. I have always just worked up loads that shot the tightest group with a temp stable powder.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

If you are a serious rifle reloading nut then it behooves you to do it both ways, compare your results, and make your own informed decision on which is better for you.

I run OCW exclusively, because I did that a decade ago, and have never not had a load work at long range.......

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longbow62</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have always just worked up loads that shot the tightest group with a temp stable powder.
</div></div>
You got it! Find your max pressure, and back it down some to find the best sweet spot. The OWC and Ladder method are what's confusing. Just shoot for groups at 200 or 300 yards with small increment increases on powder charge while watching for pressure signs.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The OWC and Ladder method are what's confusing. Just shoot for groups at 200 or 300 yards with small increment increases on powder charge while watching for pressure signs. </div></div>

And the difference with that is, what?

 

[cstmwrks]

..

..

 

[doc76251]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longbow62</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have always just worked up loads that shot the tightest group with a temp stable powder.
</div></div>
You got it! Find your max pressure, and back it down some to find the best sweet spot. The OWC and Ladder method are what's confusing. Just shoot for groups at 200 or 300 yards with small increment increases on powder charge while watching for pressure signs. </div></div>

I disagree. The OCW is not incumbent on having the correct seating depth to achieve the most accurate "node". The most accurate "node" is where the bullets from a given powder "range" (loaded all the same except powder) group at the same point of impact, GROUP SIZE DOES NOT MATTER AT THIS POINT. With that powder charge "band" you can tune your load to meet the temperature variations of your AO via seating depth. You can also tune the seating depth to attain maximum accuracy with minimum affect on pressure which keeps the "powder charge band" relatively the same.

The result is thus...

You find a REALLY accurate load that work with XYZ powder and charge at 64* F and 52% humidity at 2000 feet. Of course it sucks just as soon as the temp hits 85*F.

OR

You find a powder charge that can handle a +/- .4 gr powder grain deviation OR a +/- 40*F temp swing OR a +/- 2000ft elevation change. OR if you can think outside the box and go to the temp/elevation that you operate most frequently in. A load that will deliver accuracy across temperature swings and elevation changes within reason.

Just sayin'

Cheers,

Doc

 

[EMorr]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

Sure you can ignore both methods of testing and still build a bullet that groups well at the ranges you are shooting and call it good but that does not mean that you have found the best combination. Maybe you have maybe you haven’t but at that point it is just a guess.

I don’t think that one test is better than the other or vice versa, they are completely different tests designed to tell you two different things. Primarily the ladder test is designed to tell you where the nodes are in a particular rifle. You may find a few different nodes at different powder charges. If I understand the thought process correctly you want to isolate the nodes because that is where the ES and SD velocities are the smallest and also where the rifle naturally wants to group rounds. The purpose of the OCW test is to determine which load groups closest to the POA eliminating some weather factors by shooting targets round robin style.

When developing a new load I would shoot a ladder test first, picking 2 nodes near the target velocity I wanted to achieve and then I would run that spectrum through an OCW test to find the load that grouped closest to my point of aim but was still within an accuracy node.

So in my opinion it should not be Ladder Test vs. OCW Test to determine the best load.

But Ladder Test + OCW Test = the best load. YMMV.

 

[jlow]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

These are all good techniques BUT you have to understand one thing first and that is for this to work, you still need:

1) Good shooting techniques.

2) A precision rifle that is capable of MOA or less size groups.

3) Good reloading technique which allows you to produce MOA or less size group rounds.

Obviously, your reloads when you start are not sub-MOA yet since they have not been optimized, you find them with these techniques, but if your reloading techniques are poor or insufficient plus if you are missing one or two of the other conditions, you will find that this is a bit like a dog chasing its tail.

I say this because satisfying all three of the above conditions is not a given and in fact most shooters will have problem understanding or satisfying all three requirements.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EMorr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

When developing a new load I would shoot a ladder test first, picking 2 nodes near the target velocity I wanted to achieve and then I would run that spectrum through an OCW test to find the load that grouped closest to my point of aim but was still within an accuracy node.

</div></div>

Or just cut to the chase and find those two nodes via OCW, and then refine them with very small seating depth adjustments, IF needed.

OCW is all about barrel harmonics, nothing more, nothing less. Dan Newberry will tell you that he pondered a long while about why FGMM shot so well in so many different rifles, then came up with what everyone knows as OCW....though according to everything posted on the world wide web, few take the time to really understand how it works.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jlow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These are all good techniques BUT you have to understand one thing first and that is for this to work, you still need:

1) Good shooting techniques.

2) A precision rifle that is capable of MOA or less size groups.

3) Good reloading technique which allows you to produce MOA or less size group rounds.

Obviously, your reloads when you start are not sub-MOA yet since they have not been optimized, you find them with these techniques, but if your reloading techniques are poor or insufficient plus if you are missing one or two of the other conditions, you will find that this is a bit like a dog chasing its tail.

I say this because satisfying all three of the above conditions is not a given and in fact most shooters will have problem understanding or satisfying all three requirements. </div></div>

Nah, everyone is a Super Ace, on the internet....just ask 'em.

 

[EMorr]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

Tripwire, you stated you have been using the OCW method exclusively for a decade now so obviously you like it more than the Ladder test. Both methods have the merits and as you said it is best to try both methods and find what works best for the person running the test. As you can see I am still using both trying to tease out what will work best for me, in my current method I don’t think I am using that many more rounds than a full OCW test. I am curious what it was that made want to only use the OCW method over the Ladder test or a combination of both, maybe I can look for the same thing and save myself the hassle of running 2 separate tests.

I do think it’s a very safe bet that someone who knows what to look for can build an accurate load using either the OCW or the Ladder method. I don’t claim to know the in and outs of each method but I do have a basic understanding of what to look for. It’s pretty clear to anyone who has tried a ladder test that they need to perform the test at a distance of about 300 yards to see distinguishable results. The beauty of the OCW test is that you can get good results even if you are shooting the test at 100 yards and that is something that can’t be about the ladder test, at least not from any I have seen.

Personally I think the nodes are a little easier to spot in the ladder test but they tell you little about how that particular load will group. Having less experience with the OCW method I have a harder time picking a node out of all of the groups but that may change with more experience. I guess in my mind I am using the ladder test to shrink the possibilities for the OCW test instead of just using the OCW method for all of my charge weights.

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

I'm with Emor on this. I start with a ladder test @ 300-400 yd. Take my node/nodes, & do a round robin to narrow down the charge weight. Then do another round robin with seating depth to find the best accuracy. Then double check @ long range to verify my results. This method has always given my sub 1/2 moa loads.

 

[longbow62]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

Thanks, for the replies and advice. I am going to study both methods a lot more before I start testing. I'm still tinkering with the gun and also want to wait for somewhat warmer temps. I do not have a chronograph so I won't be able to tell velocity.

 

[targaflorio]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

I use an Oehler 35p chrono, look for the fastest mv with low Standard deviation, typically single digit, then fine tune shooting groups at distance, 300-600 yds, looking for elevation to be tight. If you don't want to buy a chronograph, maybe you can find one to borrow? I've shot lots of other shooters' ammo through mine.

 

[X-fan]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

If you are a F-Classer or benchrest shooter the ladder test is fine. You can just dial your load to suit the weather conditions.

If you intend to use the same load through all kinds of weather and temperature conditions the OCW method offers the essential forgiveness the ladder test can easily overlook.

OCW should test at 100 yards as you are trying to match up point of impact between the various loads. If wind becomes a factor this detail is lost. Take the OCW and then fine tune.

OCW is the begging of load development. Once you get OCW you can move out to a 300yard ladder test with seating depth, and other micro tuning and you will attain the same little groups as with any other method.
The only difference being the POI and group will be much more forgiving to range condition.

Peace

 

[Leaddog]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jlow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These are all good techniques BUT you have to understand one thing first and that is for this to work, you still need:

1) Good shooting techniques.

2) A precision rifle that is capable of MOA or less size groups.

3) Good reloading technique which allows you to produce MOA or less size group rounds.

Obviously, your reloads when you start are not sub-MOA yet since they have not been optimized, you find them with these techniques, but if your reloading techniques are poor or insufficient plus if you are missing one or two of the other conditions, you will find that this is a bit like a dog chasing its tail.

I say this because satisfying all three of the above conditions is not a given and in fact most shooters will have problem understanding or satisfying all three requirements. </div></div>

What he says.

 

[TexIndian]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

Unless I'm a complete dumbass (not entirely out of the the question), the ladder and OCW are just two methods of accomplishing the very same thing. They are both based on Audette's principles, but just go about it with different methods.

The main point of the initial OCW testing is not about finding the best group sizes, it's about comparing how far each group is vertically from the POA. That's the same thing the ladder does - finding the nodes where the POIs cluster around a vertical distance from the POA. The OCW gives you the advantage of being able to more easily identify which shot is which, but it has the disadvantage of making you change your POA 20-something times during the test, which itself can induce shooter error.

 

[doc76251]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

Tex,

You have confirmed that you are NOT a complete dumbass and your observations are spot on

Cheers,

Doc

 

[steve123]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OldTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless I'm a complete dumbass (not entirely out of the the question), the ladder and OCW are just two methods of accomplishing the very same thing. They are both based on Audette's principles, but just go about it with different methods.

The main point of the initial OCW testing is not about finding the best group sizes, it's about comparing how far each group is vertically from the POA. That's the same thing the ladder does - finding the nodes where the POIs cluster around a vertical distance from the POA. The OCW gives you the advantage of being able to more easily identify which shot is which, but it has the disadvantage of making you change your POA 20-something times during the test, which itself can induce shooter error. </div></div>

+1!

The final conclusion being how well does the load work (all aspects) at the distance you plan on shooting most and for how long. Just because a load works well at 100Y doesn't necessarily mean it will work at distance. A ladder or OCW is the beginning. There's more tuning and confirming to be done.

I'm learning as I go like most of us. Here's what I learned.

I used to use certain powders because the they gave me the most speed and good accuracy "when" I worked the load up. later in the year as temps changed and groups opened up it occurred to me that the velocities were changing enough to leave the most accurate barrel node. I tested this by bringing the velocity back to where it was when I had originally worked up the load by adjusting the powder charge 2-3 10ths of a grain up or down. The accuracy came back for the "most part". However another problem was happening at the same time, throat erosion. I found that the VLD bullets were harder to keep in tune and I'd have to chase the lands every 300-400 rounds. What a hassle it was with the combined phenomenons !

With the new barrel, 3rd, which I had Melonited, I used a "slowish for the cartridge" temp stable powder and bullets not so sensitive to seating depth. I'm much happier. I basically traded a little BC and speed for more sanity

The particular rifle I'm referring is a 6x47L. It's a hot little chambering. The previous barrel lasted only 1500 rounds. I'm at 1200 rounds with this barrel. I always check my 100Y zero before I shoot long range. The last 3 times I've gone out all the bullet holes were touching. I haven't changed the load at all (9 months) like I did with the 2 previous barrels and the aforementioned hassles, yet anyways. The throat has only moved .006".

After doing more ladder tests than I care to admit I will have to agree with ChadTRG42. Seems like the highest node works best giving the least ES and good load density. In my rifles the highest node still works well when it's hot or cold out, particularly meaning it does not cause sticky bolt lift when it's hot out and also has little or no primer flow.

From now on with a ladder test I'm going to find max load quickly with bullet seated .005 out of the lands. Do a double ladder 2-3 grains down from max depending on the size of the case. Pick the node, adjust depth and powder in small increments separately while watching ES then reconfirm results.

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EMorr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tripwire, you stated you have been using the OCW method exclusively for a decade now so obviously you like it more than the Ladder test. Both methods have the merits and as you said it is best to try both methods and find what works best for the person running the test. As you can see I am still using both trying to tease out what will work best for me, in my current method I don’t think I am using that many more rounds than a full OCW test. I am curious what it was that made want to only use the OCW method over the Ladder test or a combination of both, maybe I can look for the same thing and save myself the hassle of running 2 separate tests.

I do think it’s a very safe bet that someone who knows what to look for can build an accurate load using either the OCW or the Ladder method. I don’t claim to know the in and outs of each method but I do have a basic understanding of what to look for. It’s pretty clear to anyone who has tried a ladder test that they need to perform the test at a distance of about 300 yards to see distinguishable results. The beauty of the OCW test is that you can get good results even if you are shooting the test at 100 yards and that is something that can’t be about the ladder test, at least not from any I have seen.

Personally I think the nodes are a little easier to spot in the ladder test but they tell you little about how that particular load will group. Having less experience with the OCW method I have a harder time picking a node out of all of the groups but that may change with more experience. I guess in my mind I am using the ladder test to shrink the possibilities for the OCW test instead of just using the OCW method for all of my charge weights.
</div></div>
Here is my reason for running the OCW ... I can shoot it at 100 yards and get reliable results with a minimum number of test shots. I incorporate a chronograph and can gather velocities as well. You can look at your groups and tell which will work even if it's not extremely tight. A group with vertical dispersion is out while a group with lateral dispersion is in. A lateral dispersion can be tightened up with bullet seating depth.

For me the OCW will normally yield the charge weight on the first trip to the range and the second trip is finding the bullet seating depth.

 

[X-fan]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OldTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless I'm a complete dumbass (not entirely out of the the question), the ladder and OCW are just two methods of accomplishing the very same thing. They are both based on Audette's principles, but just go about it with different methods.

The main point of the initial OCW testing is not about finding the best group sizes, it's about comparing how far each group is vertically from the POA. That's the same thing the ladder does - finding the nodes where the POIs cluster around a vertical distance from the POA. The OCW gives you the advantage of being able to more easily identify which shot is which, but it has the disadvantage of making you change your POA 20-something times during the test, which itself can induce shooter error. </div></div>

The ladder test can miss the OCW because you fire one round at each weight not 3-5. In a 1/2 moa rifle the differences may be small, but they are there. The other issue is the ladder test wants to be done at 300yds+ which gives wind a real chance at messing with the results. You could indeed shoot more rounds at a ladder and accomplish the same thing, but it becomes a bit of a shit storm to keep track of.

You can keep the same POA and dial your scope if you are concerned about shooter induced error. A good point I might add.

The reason I suggest OCW first is it is a more accurate way to spot trends in powder types (for instance). A good powder shows in a ladder as well, but you can easily miss what I call the spit mark. This is the point at which you get one group of three in which 2 go into the groups and one spits...This may be the most valuable data point of the OCW.
As the charge is increased you will see a definite trend immediately following the spit and the next drop in accuracy.

I resorted to nothing but ladder tests for years and found a real difference in consistency and expediency when I implemented OCW.

Give it a try.. I think you will like it!

Peace

 

[TexIndian]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

I'm maybe splitting the difference. I usually shoot 2-3 of each charge in the ladder test, sometimes on one target and sometimes one per target. I don't trust all the other factors (especially the driver) to be perfect in a one-shot test.

I've got nothing against the OCW except for trying to figure where the 'center' of a group is so I can measure how far away it is from center. Of course, keeping track of shots on a busy ladder target can be just as bad. Pick your poison.

 

[X-fan]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

I see your point and I used to do pretty much the same.
It works.

Using a target with a grid is helpful in locating the relative OCW. With an accurate rifle I find it a no brainer, but to each their own.

Peace

 

[crewchef]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OldTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm maybe splitting the difference. I usually shoot 2-3 of each charge in the ladder test, sometimes on one target and sometimes one per target. I don't trust all the other factors (especially the driver) to be perfect in a one-shot test.

I've got nothing against the OCW except for trying to figure where the 'center' of a group is so I can measure how far away it is from center. Of course, keeping track of shots on a busy ladder target can be just as bad. Pick your poison. </div></div>

Do a search for OnTarget Precision Calculator. It's a freeware application (donations accepted) that let's you plot your OCW target and it gives you all the relative numbers. Very easy to use. I struggled with interpreting my OCW results when I first tried it. I found the OnTarget app and I took the vertical and horizontal numbers it gave me for my OCW test and plugged them into an Excel graph. A picture is worth a thousand words for sure. It showed the load moving up/right shifting to up/left prior to plainly leveling out in a node.

 

[Gene Poole]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Crewchef</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OldTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm maybe splitting the difference. I usually shoot 2-3 of each charge in the ladder test, sometimes on one target and sometimes one per target. I don't trust all the other factors (especially the driver) to be perfect in a one-shot test.

I've got nothing against the OCW except for trying to figure where the 'center' of a group is so I can measure how far away it is from center. Of course, keeping track of shots on a busy ladder target can be just as bad. Pick your poison. </div></div>

Do a search for OnTarget Precision Calculator. It's a freeware application (donations accepted) that let's you plot your OCW target and it gives you all the relative numbers. Very easy to use. I struggled with interpreting my OCW results when I first tried it. I found the OnTarget app and I took the vertical and horizontal numbers it gave me for my OCW test and plugged them into an Excel graph. A picture is worth a thousand words for sure. It showed the load moving up/right shifting to up/left prior to plainly leveling out in a node. </div></div>

+1

This is a nice piece of software for easily showing you what the numbers are and the UI makes it easy to plot.

URL for OnTarget is:

http://www.ontargetshooting.com/

 

[crewchef]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

Use the "official" OCW targets and adjust your scope/sight so POI is above POA. Makes it easier to input data when using OnTarget. Once you have your numbers for horizontal/vertical distance from POA you can just plot as X and Y coordinates to get a graphical representation of how POI is moving around.

Here's a link to targets;
http://practicalrifler.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1269

 

[Gene Poole]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Crewchef</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Use the "official" OCW targets and adjust your scope/sight so POI is above POA. Makes it easier to input data when using OnTarget. Once you have your numbers for horizontal/vertical distance from POA you can just plot as X and Y coordinates to get a graphical representation of how POI is moving around.

Here's a link to targets;
http://practicalrifler.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1269 </div></div>

Cool! I'd been working up an OCW target in Gimp (photoshop clone), but this is much better. Thanks for the link!

 

[Radar360]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

Good info.

 

[jeff59]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

Hi All,

I'm the author of the OnTarget program. I found this thread while backtracking traffic on my website and the topic caught my eye.

I've been working for some time on a new program (OnTarget Data System) that is focused on ammo/firearm testing. One of the new features helps with the calculation and display of OCW results. As mentioned above it can be difficult to calculate group centers, offsets from POA, etc. After defining the point of aim and bullet holes TDS calculates the group sizes and centers and plots the results. Your node will be at the smallest group sizes that have group centers that are close together.

Here are a couple links showing a simulated target and the OCW calculation.

OCW Target

OCW Data

The website is: OnTarget TDS

Take a look and let me know what you think. I'm always looking for suggestions.

Thanks

 

[PLeighton]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

Jeff,

Your product is quite interesting and can certainly make load development easier.

I have a few questions for you:
- A popular method for doing a ladder test is to perform the test at a distance of 500 - 1,000 yards in order to get better data.
Along with testing at extended ranges, performing the test "Round Robin" style to minimize bias.
(This article written by Jason Baney http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html does an excellent job of illustrating this concept.)
How is your software able to accommodate this type of testing?

- I would like to have it loaded on both my laptop and desktop.
Does your software license allow the program to be installed on more than one computer in your household?

- If you have already purchased the standard "On Target PC" software, is there an upgrade price?

 

[Tripwire]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeff59</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi All,

I'm the author of the OnTarget program. Thanks </div></div>

Jeff, good deal actually getting to talk to you. This is a little off topic but it might otherwise still be useful to someone regarding the topic.

Recently I had my laptop's hard drive take a dump on me, and had to start over with a rebuild. Was running Windows Something Else, and my free computer repair guy put windows 7 on here. Everything works just fine but when I installed On Target again, the free version, I get a warning asking me if I want this program to make changes to my computer. This happens every time I open On Target. Clicking "yes" lets On Target go ahead and open, and it can be used as normal, but that warning is a little agravating. I've looked at my security settings and really do not want to change anything in that regard, I'm running AVG, and that's what generates the warning.

Any ideas what to do with it so the warning doesn't pop up when I open On Target?

I'm no computer wizard.........

 

[Gene Poole]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeff59</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi All,

I'm the author of the OnTarget program. I found this thread while backtracking traffic on my website and the topic caught my eye.

I've been working for some time on a new program (OnTarget Data System) that is focused on ammo/firearm testing. One of the new features helps with the calculation and display of OCW results. As mentioned above it can be difficult to calculate group centers, offsets from POA, etc. After defining the point of aim and bullet holes TDS calculates the group sizes and centers and plots the results. Your node will be at the smallest group sizes that have group centers that are close together.

Here are a couple links showing a simulated target and the OCW calculation.

OCW Target

OCW Data

The website is: OnTarget TDS

Take a look and let me know what you think. I'm always looking for suggestions.

Thanks </div></div>

Awesome Jeff. Welcome the Sniper's Hide. The only suggestion I can think of is maybe add a feature that allows you to input your powder weights used in each round and maybe a plot to show a powder weight to node correlation. As a "for instance", I spent some time on a spreadsheet determining that I needed 44.45 +- 0.26 gn of Varget. This is probably way too anal, but it let me know that I my charge could vary by nearly 0.3 grains (well withing the accuracy of my powder thrower) and still keep the in the node.

 

[jeff59]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jeff,

Your product is quite interesting and can certainly make load development easier.

I have a few questions for you:
- A popular method for doing a ladder test is to perform the test at a distance of 500 - 1,000 yards in order to get better data.
Along with testing at extended ranges, performing the test "Round Robin" style to minimize bias.
(This article written by Jason Baney http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html does an excellent job of illustrating this concept.)
How is your software able to accommodate this type of testing?

- I would like to have it loaded on both my laptop and desktop.
Does your software license allow the program to be installed on more than one computer in your household?

- If you have already purchased the standard "On Target PC" software, is there an upgrade price? </div></div>

Dr. Phil,

- One of the goals for TDS was to allow OCW testing at closer distances for shooters who don't have easy access to range over 200 - 300 yards. Since the program can locate the bullet holes quite accurately you can get good results at closer distances. At longer distances, 500 - 1000 yards, the targets become quite large and won't fit on a normal scanner. For large targets you can import a picture taken with a digital camera (same as with OnTarget PC) and set the target reference distance. While not as accurate as a scanned image .05" accuracy is easy to achieve.

For the type of ladder test in Mr. Baney's article a single POA is used and multiple shots of each charge weight are fired. To analyze the target in TDS you would follow these steps starting with the lowest charge weight.

1. Create a new group and add the bullet holes for that charge.
2. Define the aim point for the group as the common POA on the target.
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 for each charge weight in ascending order.
4. When all groups have been defined generate the OCW output. Each group will be measured and plotted in the display.

- Like you, a lot of guys (and gals) have more than one computer and it would be handy to run the program on more than one. I plan to change the license to include an activation for a second computer in the same household.

- I don't have anything in place at this time to handle an upgrade sale. I have TDS listed at an introductory price of $75. If you already own a copy of the OnTarget PC software I'll knock off $15. For now, send an email with your registration number to [email protected] and we'll get it worked out.

- One more thing. I'm actively working on improvements to TDS and I will be releasing new versions periodically. Eventually I plan to raise the price to $100. However, all future versions of TDS will be available to registered users at no additional charge.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

- Jeff

 

[jeff59]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeff59</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi All,

I'm the author of the OnTarget program. Thanks </div></div>

Jeff, good deal actually getting to talk to you. This is a little off topic but it might otherwise still be useful to someone regarding the topic.

Recently I had my laptop's hard drive take a dump on me, and had to start over with a rebuild. Was running Windows Something Else, and my free computer repair guy put windows 7 on here. Everything works just fine but when I installed On Target again, the free version, I get a warning asking me if I want this program to make changes to my computer. This happens every time I open On Target. Clicking "yes" lets On Target go ahead and open, and it can be used as normal, but that warning is a little agravating. I've looked at my security settings and really do not want to change anything in that regard, I'm running AVG, and that's what generates the warning.

Any ideas what to do with it so the warning doesn't pop up when I open On Target?

I'm no computer wizard......... </div></div>

Hi Tripwire,

That warning message is to let you know when a program is going to make a change to your computer. OnTarget stores default values such as bullet size and target distance in the registry so the warning is triggered. Other programs may also trigger the message when started. When you click on "yes" you're telling the computer that it's okay to run that program. If the message appears unexpectedly you should click "No" to protect your computer. Usually this message generate by the Windows UAC (User Account Control). Unfortunately the only way to disable the message is to reduce the UAC notification level until the message no longer appears.

Jeff

 

[jeff59]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gene Poole</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Awesome Jeff. Welcome the Sniper's Hide. The only suggestion I can think of is maybe add a feature that allows you to input your powder weights used in each round and maybe a plot to show a powder weight to node correlation. As a "for instance", I spent some time on a spreadsheet determining that I needed 44.45 +- 0.26 gn of Varget. This is probably way too anal, but it let me know that I my charge could vary by nearly 0.3 grains (well withing the accuracy of my powder thrower) and still keep the in the node.</div></div>

Thanks, it's good to be here.

I'll add this to my list of user suggestions. For now you could export the group or point data to a .csv file that can be read into Excel. You may be able to import the data directly into your spreadsheet to save time entering the data.

Jeff

 

[PLeighton]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

Thanks Jeff!

I appreciate the consideration and I've sent off an E-mail this morning.
Hopefully I can put the TDS package to good use this weekend.

Cheers,

 

[Win_94]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OldTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless I'm a complete dumbass (not entirely out of the the question), the ladder and OCW are just two methods of accomplishing the very same thing. They are both based on Audette's principles, but just go about it with different methods.</div></div>

+ (another) 1

 

[Win_94]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The ladder test can miss the OCW because you fire one round at each weight not 3-5. In a 1/2 moa rifle the differences may be small, but they are there.</div></div>

I usually find a load in less than 10 shots. That is the reason I use the Audette Ladder Test.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The other issue is the ladder test wants to be done at 300yds+ which gives wind a real chance at messing with the results.</div></div>
I've done plenty at short distance, it just may be harder to examine the target if you do. Example:

But I don't find wind to be a problem.
Ladder test; 6 shots.
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HJGdzYL16lE"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HJGdzYL16lE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
I stopped at 6 shots because I knew the node to be there.

Testing the test; 3 shots.
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KppHziXP69k"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KppHziXP69k" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

That is 9 shots total and I have the best group in my life.

The most inexpensive way to load develop that I know of, and I trust it absolutely.

 

[jeff59]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Jeff!

I appreciate the consideration and I've sent off an E-mail this morning.
Hopefully I can put the TDS package to good use this weekend.

Cheers,
</div></div>

Thanks, I've received and responded to your email. Let me know how it works for you this weekend.

Jeff

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

"...the ladder and OCW are just two methods of accomplishing the very same thing. They are both based on Audette's principles, but just go about it with different methods."

That's true but a little misleading, IMHO.

I mean, I don't think either method is the 'end all' for load development. I shoot a ladder to find a high velocity and seating node and then use the OCW method to perfect the charge. Done that way it's quick and saves components/range time ... and barrels too. (IF I don't find an accuracy node at the speed I want I switch powders because I see no logic to 'loading down' to obtain good accuracy in anything.)

 

[Radar360]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

Fuzz: Any reason why did you start with a ladder then move onto the OCW? Or why not the other way around?

Seems like an OCW then seating sort of covers it.

 

[parker_chp]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

IMO they are both good but the ladder is easier to read/decipher. I always shoot 3 rounds per rung(.5gr or.2gr), it saves confusion on whether you pulled the shot/fluke and it gives you an idea on the vertical/groups.I also color code my bullets with sharpies so there is no confusion there (8 packs are 5.99).Its pretty much ocw at long range with one point of aim. I dont worry about useing componets because shooting is what I enjoy about shooting and trigger time is good practice.

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

Tag

 

[X-fan]

Re: OWC test vs. Ladder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Radar86</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fuzz: Any reason why did you start with a ladder then move onto the OCW? Or why not the other way around?

Seems like an OCW then seating sort of covers it.

</div></div>

I agree OCW then a ladder check is the smoothest path to foundational load development.

Folks seem to have trouble coming to result with OCW and I at first thought this confusing as my results have always been instantly concise. It then occurred to me that I have been doing this long enough to go into the OCW test with powders that I already know can and will deliver.
If I get a result that is difficult to read I understand that I have selected the WRONG powder or have a shooting problem ( I wont say that hasn't been a problem!

).

A perfect example of this was when I recently tried Retumbo with lighter bullets in a 338Edge..Bullets all over the place with Retumbo while RL-25 produced a concise and crystal clear OCW...And the winner is?

Not trying to dispute others methods, just trying to assist in those interested in developing an OCW as well as illustrate how this helps me.

Peace