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Rifle Scopes Paypal F&F... is this a scam?
- Thread starter Jkmoto46
- Start date
I've done it this way plenty of times, but you should know that F&F doesn't offer any protection. That said, I've done many transactions with guys from this site and never had a problem. I also sold a bunch of stuff same way.
If you buying here..check the person profile and feedback..that will help you if you should trust seller:
Sold scope here recently..my OP stated paypal gift or MO..buyer paid me not paypal FF costed me fees and buyer wouldn't pay the diff...i shipped item moved on and block his name for future buyer lol..( I guess feeback means nothing to some people)
Sold scope here recently..my OP stated paypal gift or MO..buyer paid me not paypal FF costed me fees and buyer wouldn't pay the diff...i shipped item moved on and block his name for future buyer lol..( I guess feeback means nothing to some people)
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Pay the %3 extra. I know you don’t want to hear that but seller shouldn’t complain and you’ve got some protection if anything goes sideways. Don’t post anything that says “firearms” stuff on there either, they will block your account.
Not only do you avoid the fee but the seller avoids a tax statement and a tax bill at the end of the year.
I know peeps that sell collectible stuff using PP and if you use G&S they have gotten a tax form.
Of course avoiding taxes would be "UnAmerican", at least in the new Socialist USA.
I know peeps that sell collectible stuff using PP and if you use G&S they have gotten a tax form.
Of course avoiding taxes would be "UnAmerican", at least in the new Socialist USA.
I’d have refunded the buyer and told them to move on. Terms are terms.
Then,i wouldnt do PP gift..pay the extra 3% if seller refuse this type of service (IMO no seller shouldnt turn it down,youre paying the fees)..move on its a scam
Tell them you'll pay the fee. If they still refuse its a total scam.
If they are a newer seller, well, that may also make me think twice.
I usually tell the buyer to either include the 3% to cover the fee or do F&F, but it is their choice on what we do.
If they are a newer seller, well, that may also make me think twice.
I usually tell the buyer to either include the 3% to cover the fee or do F&F, but it is their choice on what we do.
Hah !......You mean like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, John Kerry.......All fine, upstanding citizens that pay their taxes promptly !
Part of the problem is that if somebody sends you money as G&S and pays the 3% fee, they can pretty much scam all the money back from you and leave you out all your money and get the stuff for free if they choose to do so.
That's another reason why some people will only do F&F if using PayPal.
From the sellers standpoint, they would like to get paid, but they also really don't want to get ripped off.
Not a scam, just a different way to pay. No transaction fee, but no protection from PP either. I use this way for guys that I trust or that have done plenty of deals on this forum. I will say that most selling high $$ items here are legit, but it’s always good to do your homework.
It’s also easy enough to ask sellers for a picture with either their ID or at the very least, a piece of paper with their name, Hide username, and date on it next to the item you are wanting to purchase... Is it perfect? No. But again it’s just an easy way to weed out the scammers.
It’s also easy enough to ask sellers for a picture with either their ID or at the very least, a piece of paper with their name, Hide username, and date on it next to the item you are wanting to purchase... Is it perfect? No. But again it’s just an easy way to weed out the scammers.
Everyone was new at some point but that's one of the factors I look at when deciding whether to buy or not. New with no/minimal history/feedback - probably not gonna buy. Personally, I like PP f/f. It's quick, easy and if seller has history, you're probably ok. Good guys do go bad though sometimes.
Unless it is someone who has been on the hide a while I would expect them to pay the 3% for my safety. The scope you are looking at is listed for 2500 at eurooptic they will give you a couple hundred off for asking nice and another 70 if you pay by echeck, then your the first owner. If you have to pay the 2000+3%, well why would you do that?
Hah !......You mean like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, John Kerry.......All fine, upstanding citizens that pay their taxes promptly !
Well they are all guys invested in getting money out of your pocket while bemoaning their T Rex arms when it comes time to get money out of their wallet.
It's WAAAAYYY too easy to scam a seller with PP. They will always side with the buyer and it's a pain in the ass trying to make your case to some asshole in india that their only goal is to get you off the phone as quickly as possible while trying to deny a claim. If a buyer scams you you're looking at 5hr minimum on the phone with those assholes between all the calls you will have to make to get them to hopefully side in your favor. I've had it happen multiple times, mostly on eBay but even a couple times on the forums.
Because of that I won't take any payments that aren't F&F and even then I don't take anything for amounts more than I'm willing to lose because a F&F payment can still be reversed, it's just a little harder, and most senders assume that they can't be reversed. If someone sends me a goods and services payment anyway it gets refunded immediately, no exceptions. If the transaction is more than $500 then you're sending me a certified check unless you're someone that has a really solid reputation and I trust.
I'm not a scammer, I'd just rather sit on something before I risk losing my item and the money because there's too many scumbags in the world. With a little bit of digging you can usually get a feel on whether the person is legit. Look and see if they've sold other items, if they have and there was a problem then you'd know and they'd probably be banned anyway. Pay attention to the dollar value of their other items if they have other adds... If you're interested in a $100 item and they have a $8K rifle for sale... Yeah they're probably not going to run off with your pocket change and damage their reputation.
Because of that I won't take any payments that aren't F&F and even then I don't take anything for amounts more than I'm willing to lose because a F&F payment can still be reversed, it's just a little harder, and most senders assume that they can't be reversed. If someone sends me a goods and services payment anyway it gets refunded immediately, no exceptions. If the transaction is more than $500 then you're sending me a certified check unless you're someone that has a really solid reputation and I trust.
I'm not a scammer, I'd just rather sit on something before I risk losing my item and the money because there's too many scumbags in the world. With a little bit of digging you can usually get a feel on whether the person is legit. Look and see if they've sold other items, if they have and there was a problem then you'd know and they'd probably be banned anyway. Pay attention to the dollar value of their other items if they have other adds... If you're interested in a $100 item and they have a $8K rifle for sale... Yeah they're probably not going to run off with your pocket change and damage their reputation.
F and F is not a scam... but a lot of people try and avoid the fees (3 to 6 percent on the seller's end) by requesting Friends and Family. That is designed by PP to be a 'free' service that is to pay back a loan, get your kid some money at college, give a gift to Uncle Fester. And they consider that a 'minority' of transactions, so they don't charge a fee.
I've been using PayPal about since it started... so here are a few things to watch for when using it in the gun world.
First, they don't allow firearms-related transactions. Guns, ammunition, components. I think scopes are ok... but they are very anti-gun.
Second, if you do enough Friends and Family transactions to people with different last names all over the map... eventually, they will take a look at you. I got my wrist-slapped years ago (before PP was integrated into eBay) by having a ton of F&F transactions that just happened to match up, monetarily, exactly with a bunch of eBay transactions. I got suspended for a few weeks. I felt shame.
So now, in order to get the protection, I always offer to pay the seller's fee. The extra is worth it and I am protected. They end up coming out whole. The convenience is there.
If I am doing firearms related transactions, I usually call it something else. "Ford Mustang Parts is a favorite." So if you order a bunch of ammo... you can say in the PP notes "Payment for the 1966 Ford Mustang Shifter Mechanism, Part 500x223 Federal Mogul Bearings..." Whatever. Be creative. So if things don't show up... you can go to PP and say "the seller never sent me my... Mustang Shifter." If it is an 'ok' item like a scope... be detailed about what it is. "US Optics, 30mm MRT, 5 x 25 EREK" does NOT say "Rifle Scope" in the box. But it darn well is descriptive. But beware, they may not cover gun-related stuff... even scopes...
Last, in almost 20 years of using PP... I have never been scammed once. Not once. But then, again, have never been scammed using checks or CC's either. Because I don't tend to follow the 'It's too good to be true, so I'll buy it" mantra. Use common sense. That new scope is coming from Lithuania from someone with zero feedback and no profile anywhere and they want Friends and Family with no recourse? Well..... you get what you pay for. Would you send cash in an envelope to a stranger for goods? Then don't send PP... unless you know what you are doing.
Around here (and the level of honesty in the SH PX is superb), PP is really useful and convenient. But do yourself a favor, pay the fee. Or split with the seller. Eventually, it is likely that if you do too much friends and family... it will lead down a bad path.
Last, on a few high-ticket items, I've had friends from here on SH who live near where the item is... go pick it up for you. You can send them over, let them verify the item. Do the PayPal transaction while they stand there. And then they can walk out carrying the item... and send it to you by whatever means. It's another strategy for making sure you don't get scammed!
But F&F is not a scam. Lots of people use it, however, to scam PayPal from getting their fees. That leaves buyers potentially unprotected and PayPal in the mood to be not nice to you... if you/seller scammed them first!
Cheers,
Sirhr
I've been using PayPal about since it started... so here are a few things to watch for when using it in the gun world.
First, they don't allow firearms-related transactions. Guns, ammunition, components. I think scopes are ok... but they are very anti-gun.
Second, if you do enough Friends and Family transactions to people with different last names all over the map... eventually, they will take a look at you. I got my wrist-slapped years ago (before PP was integrated into eBay) by having a ton of F&F transactions that just happened to match up, monetarily, exactly with a bunch of eBay transactions. I got suspended for a few weeks. I felt shame.
So now, in order to get the protection, I always offer to pay the seller's fee. The extra is worth it and I am protected. They end up coming out whole. The convenience is there.
If I am doing firearms related transactions, I usually call it something else. "Ford Mustang Parts is a favorite." So if you order a bunch of ammo... you can say in the PP notes "Payment for the 1966 Ford Mustang Shifter Mechanism, Part 500x223 Federal Mogul Bearings..." Whatever. Be creative. So if things don't show up... you can go to PP and say "the seller never sent me my... Mustang Shifter." If it is an 'ok' item like a scope... be detailed about what it is. "US Optics, 30mm MRT, 5 x 25 EREK" does NOT say "Rifle Scope" in the box. But it darn well is descriptive. But beware, they may not cover gun-related stuff... even scopes...
Last, in almost 20 years of using PP... I have never been scammed once. Not once. But then, again, have never been scammed using checks or CC's either. Because I don't tend to follow the 'It's too good to be true, so I'll buy it" mantra. Use common sense. That new scope is coming from Lithuania from someone with zero feedback and no profile anywhere and they want Friends and Family with no recourse? Well..... you get what you pay for. Would you send cash in an envelope to a stranger for goods? Then don't send PP... unless you know what you are doing.
Around here (and the level of honesty in the SH PX is superb), PP is really useful and convenient. But do yourself a favor, pay the fee. Or split with the seller. Eventually, it is likely that if you do too much friends and family... it will lead down a bad path.
Last, on a few high-ticket items, I've had friends from here on SH who live near where the item is... go pick it up for you. You can send them over, let them verify the item. Do the PayPal transaction while they stand there. And then they can walk out carrying the item... and send it to you by whatever means. It's another strategy for making sure you don't get scammed!
But F&F is not a scam. Lots of people use it, however, to scam PayPal from getting their fees. That leaves buyers potentially unprotected and PayPal in the mood to be not nice to you... if you/seller scammed them first!
Cheers,
Sirhr
I sure hope you just refunded the actual PP transaction, that's an 8-10 day process. Nothing says get fucked better than no product, and your refund is in the works, lmao
Old school but a phone call goes a long ways.. I've had some pretty good phone conversations with complete strangers buying and selling on forums.. you'll know if it's legit after a few minutes.
A lot of firearms related companies offer PP as a payment method. Whidden, OTM off the top of my head. Plus Venmo is a subsidiary of PP, never hear they are anti gun.
If PP is so anti gun, how far does the 3% protection go if a dispute arises and it is revealed it is firearm related item, or gun for that matter?
If PP is so anti gun, how far does the 3% protection go if a dispute arises and it is revealed it is firearm related item, or gun for that matter?
For a long time, I had a side business making custom leather holsters. Paypal was the primary form of payment I accepted. "Gun" was one of the words in the email address used for the paypal "business" account. I also had a merchant account through paypal for a while, where I would charge credit cards. Again, "Gun" was part of the business address. I never had any issues with them. I've often heard of paypal being anti-gun, but I've never experienced it. I've also heard that eBay is anti-gun. They don't allow firearms, but people sell lots of gun related items on ebay. Paypal was owned by eBay, but I don't think they are any longer. I'm not sure if Paypal's anti-gun reputation came from their eBay affiliation or their own policies, but I've never had an issue with any transaction on paypal, gun related or not.
Something has changed w/ PP in recent years. There's ton's of gun parts on ebay and the default payment method is PP. Also many sellers on gunbroker now even take PP. I believe actual guns are still prohibited but I always figured they woke up and saw how much $ they were losing out on when the excluded most gun related stuff years ago.
Waroni, Dirthead and Milo. That is probably true and more up-to-date than my somewhat older 'reading' of PP. And, yes, Gunbroker and other places do take PP.
So may be that they decided that 6 percent of a $1,000 AR... is pretty good money for processing a few bits of information. Wonder why Elon Musk can afford to send Tesla's into space? Because he invented Paypal...
Cheers,
Sirhr
So may be that they decided that 6 percent of a $1,000 AR... is pretty good money for processing a few bits of information. Wonder why Elon Musk can afford to send Tesla's into space? Because he invented Paypal...
Cheers,
Sirhr
Email today: Came from Venmo, owned by PP
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full
Form 1099-K is issued if total transactions are more than $20,000 and the person has more than 200 transactions.
That's a lot of wheeling and dealing for a hobbyist, but the seller can always ask for USPS money orders if they are concerned.
I wouldn't worry if the seller is in good communication with you, lots of pics. I've also paided the 3% premium to do normal PP as a buyer. I've also waited for payment via PP (Non F&F) and it's a little bit of a pain. As long as you enter shipping details as the seller and its delivered, you get paid. My advice to you is protect yourself in every way you can, but do trust in your fellow snipers hide members. Most people around here are good Joes! If its to good to be true, its not a good deal.
My coworker deals in Star Wars dollies.
An original Luke Skywalker with extendo penile fleshlight saber in graded A condition apparentky commands some good cash.
Wish I hadnt shot all my kids toys with my BB gun.
I dont think he pegs the $20K threshold all that often but perhaps 200 transactions is what he received his letter from and was pretty bummed to realize Uncle Sam had his hands in his Princess Leias.
Imo the scam is using f&f to sell things to strangers online.
Yeah PayPals politics sucks but it's a convenience a lit of us use and at the end of the day it's stealing 3%...
Yeah PayPals politics sucks but it's a convenience a lit of us use and at the end of the day it's stealing 3%...
Nearly all of Paypal's history is post Peter Thiel. He was a co-founder, but cashed out along with all the other shareholders when the company was sold to Ebay in 2002.
Now that Paypal has been spun out of Ebay as its own publicly-traded company, it's possible that Thiel owns shares, but he's not a top-10 shareholder and he certainly doesn't have any responsibility for the company's policies.
PP taking 3% is no worse than the credit card machine processors. I've owned 2 liquor/tobacco stores for the last 9 years. Each year our fees go up to process transactions with folks using "plastic', which is at almost a 50% of the time. It doesn't matter whether it's credit or debit. Last year my 2 stores paid $19,700.00 in CC fees. That's right off the top, came out to almost .52cents pre transaction. i live in a small community. 22,000 people. U don't get rich owning a liquor store. I can't believe the folks that think there is no charge with them using plastic. We have a minimum charge to cover the cost of transaction fees. So i tell folks, it does cost u using plastic, as i have to add that additional cost in my markup. Banks are killing the US economy more than anything. In this small town, it used to b if a corner lot became available, another shit and get gas station went in, now another bank goes in. We have over 17 banking institutions in this small town. Banking pays.
Parroting the Technocrats line only helps, them rip you off more. The Technocrats and the stupid movie/media companies seem to have people brainwashed into thinking they are "owed" profits and money and if they don't get it, you are evil for not making them richer.
You are NOT "stealing" 3% you are simply not paying them a large sum of money for doing basically nothing, and in which their costs are basically nothing.
When you do PP F&F without fees, it is only without fees if you are using your bank account or paypal balance as the funding source, they charge fees if you are funding it with a CC. It costs them NOTHING to transfer some numbers from one paypal balance account to another and a couple pennies to pull it from your bank account to their system. In the mean time they are getting the free use of all that money going through their system as a float that they can make money on just like exchange & transfer banks do.
At least you get it.
I'd wager a good many people on the forum here don't actually fully understand how it affects their lives.
Everybody goes on about the "Protection and convenience" of using their credit cards or paying fees through eBay / PayPal / Amazon etc.
Have they ever actually put a price on how much that "Protection and convenience" is costing them? I bet they would be hugely surprised if they did.
Have they ever run a loss/savings calculation on how much they might possibly loose in a given year without "protection" compared to how much they pay?
Thanks to the credit card companies, almost everything you buy is marked up by 3% or more to cover their take, even with that the credit card companies are upset and want to be able to gouge you for more interest payments for higher profits.
Add up all the money you spent on groceries, gas, household items, road tolls, online shopping, doctor visits, ammunition purchases, gun purchases etc for the whole year and then look what 3% of that is. That was your tax to the financial institutions. What could you have bought with that money instead?
Most stores are either too big or too stupid to offer other payment terms discounts, but I appreciate the stores that do & go out of my way to buy more from them. My local gun store offers me 5% off when I'm paying in cash for something. With EuroOptic, i usually try to do the eCheck option to save us both money. In our company where we are often doing invoices for several thousand at a time, we offer our customers a payment terms discount for check or wire transfer payment in the percentage that our credit card processor takes.
Then you move on to the "marketplaces" like Amazon and eBay. You don't see it, but everything is marked up quite a bit to pay for their cut and the "free shipping". By the time all is said and done, you are giving 10% or more of your purchasing power away.
And just for added fun all the people you are giving this money to... hate your freedom and hate your politics & hate you..
I always offer to go get a check or cash if I find something at the LGS. And for the occasional purchase at Buds's, I always mail a check. I'd rather wait a few days, save a few bucks, and not give it to the bank - which it seems more often now want to attach a political agenda to their service.
I pay my credit card bill off when it's due. So the card company backs my every purchasing whim for twenty nine days. As well as offering a convenient way to make online purchases and reservations. Plus a little purchasing protection. For three percent.
Almost forgot Pay at the Pump. That's probably worth it right there. I've not been inside for years.
Almost forgot Pay at the Pump. That's probably worth it right there. I've not been inside for years.
I agree. I see it as an ethical issue that people use F&F to skirt the 3%.
PayPal is a business and they clearly spell out their terms of use. If you want to do a transaction there is a fee.
IMO it’s no different then walking into someone’s business and walking out with merchandise you think you shouldn’t have to pay for.
Totally different but I'm sure they appreciate you thinking that, obviously the propaganda has worked well.
Walking into an actual business and taking some of their physical product deprives them of their actual goods that they paid for. (If they only have 1 or a limited supply, it may also deprive them of a sale they could have made profit on). So you are actually taking something of value from them.
Completely different than if I choose to use PayPal's F&F service to pay for something because.
THEY specifically offer that service as minimal profit loss leader to to get more people to have a paypal account so they can drum up more business, much as free food samples, free refills, free inspections etc.
If I had to pay their 3% fee, I wouldn't pay it so they never would have had the profit anyways.
However by using their F&F service, they get the float balance use of my money between the time it comes out of my account and the time the recipient withdraws it to their account. In addition they make a bit of money displaying ads to us on the log in pages.
It's more akin to you walked into a store, looked around said hi to a friend and walked out while tossing a few cents into their tip jar.
You might find that if you use your bank's online banking services, you might just be able to do direct transfers from your bank account to the bank accounts of your family members fairly quickly and without fees depending on the bank.
Are you good with paying the fees when purchasing all your products from your suppliers? I would think it would cut into your margins a fair bit.
On our end just about none of our suppliers in the wholesale world take credit cards as payment, it's pretty much all bank transfer and company check terms since nobody on either side is willing to loose profit to fees in the wholesale dealing side. (3% of $100k is a big chunk of change to just be handing to a 3rd party.)
Propaganda??
As already mentioned, their terms of service are very clear. All transactions for goods and services carry a fee. If you think that using their service for that purpose and not paying isn’t theft then you need to re-examine your world view.
Why is it that everyone wants to do “discreet” FF? Because they don’t want PayPal to find out what they are doing.
The FACT is that it’s fraud. The PROPOGANDA is believing it’s ok to defraud a company out of their advertised price for a service and then convincing yourself and others that it’s ok because it’s “different” than your paradigm of theft.
You want to conduct business that way?? Go for it, but don’t try and justify it as ethical.
As already mentioned, their terms of service are very clear. All transactions for goods and services carry a fee. If you think that using their service for that purpose and not paying isn’t theft then you need to re-examine your world view.
Why is it that everyone wants to do “discreet” FF? Because they don’t want PayPal to find out what they are doing.
The FACT is that it’s fraud. The PROPOGANDA is believing it’s ok to defraud a company out of their advertised price for a service and then convincing yourself and others that it’s ok because it’s “different” than your paradigm of theft.
You want to conduct business that way?? Go for it, but don’t try and justify it as ethical.
Another small business owner here - an accountant. I'll provide a counterpoint that many of my clients have shared with me. They prefer credit cards for a few reasons:
1) Less cash to deposit. Time spent banking is time that can be spent working on their business.
2) Less cash to be robbed. For businesses in the 'hood, this can be a real problem.
3) Less cash for employees to steal. This is probably the biggest reason they embrace the switch.
4) Higher tips for restaurant employees. I'm not sure why, but hypothesize that it's because credit cards "aren't real money" so it's OK to leave a bigger tip.
5) Higher sales and/or higher collections. A plumbing client recently started accepting credit cards and his average A/R aging dropped significantly. Me personally, there are many instances where I won't shop somewhere if they don't accept credit cards because I usually don't carry cash.
I have two merchant providers that are local to me that have very good rates and top notch customer service. I get no kick back from them but happily refer clients to them.
OTOH, getting that 1099-K keeps us honest with the IRS.
Rhetorical question to discuss in philosophy class, bible class, or at the bar:
Is it ethical to steal from bad people or bad companies?
Is it ethical to find out ways to not give as much profit to bad companies (using their own enticement / marketing plans to do so) that have paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in criminal fines for their breaking the law and ripping people off, but yet who's executives responsible have never faced any personal penalties for the things they ordered. Who I might also add are constantly working their hardest to find any loophole in taxes or regulations to let them do as they want till they get smacked.
It's possibly just doing exactly to the big evil companies what they do to the countries they are based in.
(Just look, pretty much all the technocrats go on the assumption of get away with anything we can till somebody smacks us hard enough to make us find a new way of getting what we want).
The people running PP are not stupid - they know exactly how folks are using their no fee f/f option. If they weren't making money off it, directly or indirectly, it wouldn't exist. As for not paying a credit card fee if there is a cash "discount," I'll do it every time the cost outweighs the convenience. $75 CC fee on a gun purchase vs mailing a check to a place like Buds or any number of established GB sellers - nope, that money is staying with me.
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