People with low power scopes, get in here.

[XxMerlinxX]

From time to time, here in the rimfire section and in the main forums, I see people who recommend low powered scopes such as the Super Sniper 10x or some sort of 3-9x variable. My question to you is this, what kind of groups can you shoot with these lower power scopes? Are you getting sub moa groups regularly?

 

[Heronion]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

Obviously it depends on what ranges you're asking about. I have an SS10x42M on my Savage.

At 100 yards I average between 0.4 - 0.8 inches.
At 200 yards I average between 1 - 1.5 inches.

If I went with a NF with 22x max magnification, could I get better groups? Almost definitely. Does it justify paying 4-5 times the price? Not for me, personally.

EDIT: This is with a .308. I'm not sure if it helps, but your reference to the "main forum" made me post this here.

 

[CharlieTN]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

I run a 6-24x44 on my Savage MKII FV and while my groups at 100 yards don't seem to change much betwen 10x and 24x it sure is nice being able to see the hits on the 24x. Can't quite make them out with the 10x.

Haven't stretched it out beyond that but I don't doubt that at 200 I would see a difference between the 2 powers.

Charlie

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

when talking target, i love high powered scopes (6-24 or 8-32) for a few reasons:

1. i can spot my own hits on paper at distance without a spotting scope

2. i can zoom in and keep concentration on that bullseye. this could also be counter productive in windy conditions though, as the field of view is limited (you can see too much of the surrounding area swaying in the breeze to get a good read)

3. you can actually fit the crosshairs inside the a typical bullseye, rather than completely covering it and / or possibly be a bit off as you think you are on the spot, but the crosshairs are actually off the spot.

for me on paper, higher power is the way to go and i do tend to shoot better groups mostly just for those visual advantages.

of course higher power usually comes at a higher price as it will need better glass at least to have any decent clarity and brightness.


however when hunting, i want a 4-16, 3-12 type scope so as not to "lose" game in the FOV. when i shoulder the rifle, i want the game in the FOV and not have to be searching around trying to find it on a higher power. the lower power (as mentioned above) is also better for keeping the environment within view for bettter wind reads.

so the lower power within that power range gives me good locating at shorter ranges, then the higher 12 to 16 powers give me good zooming in to positively identify the game as legal and safe to shooteither at shorter or longer ranges.

 

[168BTHPM]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XxMerlinxX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From time to time, here in the rimfire section and in the main forums, I see people who recommend low powered scopes such as the Super Sniper 10x or some sort of 3-9x variable. My question to you is this, what kind of groups can you shoot with these lower power scopes? Are you getting sub moa groups regularly? </div></div>

I use a Redfield 2.5-7 on my Kimber 82 Super America, I also have numerous Remington 513-T and Winchester 75 with Unertl and Fecker 6X scopes and a 40-X with a 10X Unertl. I don't use anything under 20X for target shooting unless I am shooting a sporter match that limits scopes to 6X. As far as sub-MOA groups, if you can shoot a sub-MOA group with iron sights I don't see why you couldn't do it with any low powered scope that holds zero.

 

[chemist1]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

I assume you are talking about 22lr? On my 17 HMR I run a votex viper 2-7 and can easily see holes at 100 yards on white paper. with this comb in light winds I can shoot 3/4" groups. it opens up at longer distances but I believe this is due more to wind than magnification limitations. The fixed 10X that I run on my 22lr is fine for shooting out to 200. The groups are not great at 100 to 200 but that is a product of the ammo I use and not the scope magnification.

 

[bunsen27]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

Personally, I'd rather have more magnification and be able to dial it back than not have enough magnification when needed/wanted.

As for shooting groups, as long as the target is the correct size so you can index on the same point each shot, in theory you should be able to shoot similar groups at the same distance.

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

Shooting at a paper target with rimfire at 100 yard I don't have any problem. I'd like to say that at 200 yards it gets substantially more difficult to shoot at a paper target for score because I can't spot my own hits or make corrections withought switching to a spotting scope. I also know that while using a higher magnification scope I am able to really focus on centering in on the target where with my 10x I just do my best to "cover" the target because there's just not much else i can do. As far as accuracy at distance goes, I believe it is more the caliber and the nature of rimfire that makes scores at 200 so much worse at 200 than they are at 100 for me personally. I know with handloaded 223 I don't have much change from 100 to 200 to 300, but again, I believe it has more to do with the nature of the caliber than of the magnification of the optic. if it is just bangin' steel or similar types of objects I do prefer the 10x on my rimfire because it's just much more fun to do. YMMV

 

[jbuck88]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

I am just getting back into shooting off a bench and still haven't get a rear rest yet. I am using my left hand for a rear rest on these groups and wind was 10-15mph and I was shooting between gusts. So I think I can improve once I get use to this again.


But here is 10 round 150 yds with a Leupy 3.5-10 with parallax reset to 50yds. (one called flier)

 

[Gruff]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

It all boils down to having the right tool for the job at hand.

Shooting from a bench or prone where the rifle is supported by bags or bipod, I prefer a higher mag scope so I can aim at the same point each time. The difference is aiming at the center ring, or aiming at the x in the center ring.

For position shooting, unsupported, or shooting furry creatures, I prefer lower magnification for the simple reasons that it gives a wider field of view and less reticle movement on the target.

To answer your question on groups, at 50 yards one of my rifles will group 0.1" 10-shots at 24x but I can't seem to get smaller than 0.3's at 6x.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

Looking back on my scope career...
I won in 2009, the Weaver Trophy in IHMSA with a .420" 100yd group, that was shot with an XP pistol in 6BR with a 2.5-8 Leupold pistol scope. That was my friend's pistol, both of my XP-100 pistols that I use for competition have 10x max power rifle scopes. I will freely admit they are steel shooting guns and aren't really set up for paper. I have seen many great groups shot with mid to low power scopes but I firmly believe you should have one scope for testing loads and one for competition. If your competition is shooting paper you might benefit from a little more power. Having a high power scope to spot shots on paper is not a reason to put more scope on a gun than you need, that is why they make spotting scopes.
I use a 16x on my 22lr CZ452V I think it is about perfect. Lots of folks do really well with the fixed 10x at our TSC match in Conover. Too much emphasis is placed on scope power, I would trade power for clarity ANY DAY! I can't hit what I can't see. Most people cann see a target well enough to hit, that is magnified 10 times...even at 1000yds.

 

[PLeighton]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

More magnification = Magnified Errors in Technique.

When using a higher powered optic there are several things that can hurt your accuracy.
- First, all movement is more pronounced and can hurt accuracy if you are not firing from a supported position.
- Second, parallax & cheek weld become critical at higher magnifications.
This can be demonstrated by slightly moving your head while dialed in on your target at different magnifications.
Note how much shift there is in the position of the reticle.
- Third, target fixation.
When you have a larger FOV, natural point of aim and follow through are typically done without giving them much thought.

FWIW,
I like to run a higher magnified optic, but have learned that dialing down the magnification is an important part of running a variable optic.
Cranking up the magnification is then done for milling, spotting, or when you need to see additional target details.

 

[M24_SWS]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

From what ive learned....fixed 10X has done extremely well for itself. Military has used it in the sniper rifles and its done a great job. No its not a perfect power range but it does its job pretty well.

 

[stork23raz]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

I agree with many of you. I use a SS10x on my savage markII. My friend had a SS20x on his. I didnt care much for it. 10 is more than enough of for me. I would have probaly been happy with aSS6x. I wouldnt mind having a 6-20-24 power scope. But only if the glass is good enough. The parrallax becomes very fine adjustments with high magnification. You see more reticle movement(you might be trying to overcorrect for it instead of using proper form, breathing, trigger control) Would i use a high magnicfation scope. sure. probaly Not a fix one though. Id take the new SS5-20x50, sightron SIII, nightforce. Higher magnifcation can and will actually hinder you if the glass is not up to par. Not to mention mirage being a prick and making the target blurry/fuzzy.

 

[gszeto99]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XxMerlinxX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From time to time, here in the rimfire section and in the main forums, I see people who recommend low powered scopes such as the Super Sniper 10x or some sort of 3-9x variable. My question to you is this, what kind of groups can you shoot with these lower power scopes? Are you getting sub moa groups regularly? </div></div>

Not a super sniper but I used a Sightron SIII series 3.5-10x scope to shoot .572in at 300 yards which is .182MOA with my Tikka Tactical in .223. Can I do that every time, no but I shot sub 1/2 MOA groups all the time with a 10x scope. All of my USO scopes are now 10x scopes if that tells you anything. 10 power is enough magnification to easily shoot sub MOA--even sub 1/2MOA. Here is the link to my Tikka Tactical rifle setup (don't worry this is not a sales promotion--rifle was sold long ago): http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...107#Post1416107

Gene

 

[gtriever]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: G.Ruff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... For position shooting, unsupported, or shooting furry creatures, I prefer lower magnification for the simple reasons that it gives a wider field of view and less reticle movement on the target.
</div></div>

I agree. For me, 4.5-14x is a good variable range, and 10x is a good fixed range scope.

 

[SmallBoreSnipers]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

If I use my 9X Centerpoint I'll average about 4" at 300 with the 17.

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

Since you mention "group size," I presume we're talking about poking holes in paper, not shooting bambi or bunny rabbits or Muj.

If your rifle shoots 1 MoA @100 yards but 2 MoA @400, it probably isn't because the rifle is less accurate at the greater range, it probably is because your target is not appropriate for the magnification of your scope at that range.

At closer ranges, you have "optimal" precision in your POA because the bulls-eye is large and your crosshairs don't take up much real estate against it, leaving you with plenty of reference points on which to base your POA. But as the range gets progressively longer, the image of the bulls-eye gets smaller and your crosshairs cover more of it. That leaves the shooter fewer reference points on which to base his POA. Regardless of the magnification of your scope, and regardless of the target, at some distance (and beyond) you no longer will have sufficient reference points to maintain that optimum aiming precision. from that point on, your groups will 'grow' in MoA. But it's the target that's to blame as much as the scope. If you want to test the accuracy of the rifle at that range, you just need an appropriate target.

But testing the rifle<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">man</span></span> is an altogether different matter.

FWIW, this is the reason I almost always shoot a Redfield Precision Sighting Target. It has an enormous diamond for a bulls-eye. The large bulls-eye helps maintain full aiming precision to a greater distance, and I find a diamond offers better aiming precision than a circle one. As it happens, I have a 10x SuperSniper on a .308. With it, I can shoot the exact the same 0.5 MoA from 100 yards to 300. But that is about where my max "full precision" range is with that target and scope combination because my groups grow about 0.1 MoA @400 yards, and continue growing slowly but steadily from that point on.

So if you want to shoot your 3x9 10/22 @500 yards, you don't necessarily need a bigger scope, just a bigger bulls-eye.

 

[NUTT]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

I've got a SWFA SS 3-9 on my CZ 452 Varmint. At 50 yards on I can shoot .4" groups at 3 power, 9 power and pretty much anywhere in between.

I don't really understand why people think 3-9x is "low power" for a 22 LR. Most of what I see people using at 1,000 plus yards is up to 20, maybe 24x.

Of course, mine is a trainer rifle not a benchrest rifle.

 

[sscoyote]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

I have a 3-9x PFI Rapid Reticle on this Ruger Charger and love it. With factory barrel i was avging 1.5-2.0 MOA at 100, and could keep them all on a 12" steel plate at 200 no problem. With the Kidd barrel i'm hoping to cut that in half on calm days--we'll see-

IMO, this is one of the finest 22 RF optics ever made.

 

[Mackay Sagebrush]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

Situationally dependant.

For example. On one rimfire (a CZ 452) I have a V16 Weaver. It is a very reliabl and extremely repeatable scope. It tracks quite well. When hunting I keep it on 4x and shoot with both eyes open. When shooting groups, I dial it up to 16 x and the higher magnification has proven to be a real asset.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have an old Marlin Model 25 that I trimmed the barrel off at 16.25"s and threaded for a can. When the can is not being used, it wears an A2 flash hider. The optic it wears is a fixed 2.5x Weaver. In having other scopes on this rifle previously, I know how accurate it is. With only the 2.5x scope on it, I cannot take full advantage of the accuracy potential of the rifle.

Pic of the CZ and Weaver V16:

That being said, the chopped little rifle is awesome for its intended use. It is very light and is quick to shoulder. The 2.5x scope has a huge field of view and running jackrabbits are quickly picked up in the sight picture. Off the bench, it may not be ideal, but in the tall sagebrush it comes into its own.

A 2.5x10, 3x9 4.x14, 4x16 or something in that range is rarely a bad choice for a rimfire for a general purpose piece.

A while back I picked up a Marlin 695 and purchased a fixed 4x Weaver. The optics are bright and clear. It is a perfect match for that rifle. The optic actually cost more than the rifle but has proven to be a great choice.

In summary, if you want to punch itty bitty groups, higher magnification can really be an asset, as long as the glass is of good quality.

 

[Mackay Sagebrush]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

Speaking of field guns,

This is my most used 22 by far. It is a very old Marlin Mountie. They have been long discontinued. 20" barrels. Mine wears a 2-7 compact Burris. I have 22 that are more accurate, but this one feels like an extension of my arms. You can feel the craftsmanship when you cycle the action. It carries extremely well.

The low powered variable is perfect for such a carbine.

This picture was taken outside of Wisdom Montana. I was catching trout at the stream, when I was not shooting ground squirrels.

Pure Jackrabbit terror:

 

[ggmanning]

Re: People with low power scopes, get in here.

I don't use anything higher than 10x even on my "trainer" I want to simulate shooting my centerfires at 6-800 yds and 10x on a .22 at 2-250 yds does that real well. On our hunting .22's its either fixed 4x or 2-7x.