PGM Ultima Ratio

[Tonsofguns]

Jdi is now importing PGM rifles from France.

They seem to be extremely well built, with quick barrel change, and accurate. Hard to find much information on these rifles.

The one I am interested is the ultima ratio in 6.5 creedmoor, which sell for $6500-$7900 depending on features.

Anyone know much about this rifles?

Ultima Ratio - PGM Précision

Intended for trained marksmen, this weapon is designed to shoot targets at up to 800 m, depending on the configuration. The precision and repeatability of this system ensure that the target is hit in the first attempt.

www.pgmprecision.com

 

[b6graham]

wow that versus an AI? not a chance

it looks like someone took pieces from like 10 different types of rifles and put them together in MS Paint

 

[Tonsofguns]

wow that versus an AI? not a chance

it looks like someone took pieces from like 10 different types of rifles and put them together in MS Paint

Guess looks is subjective, I think it looks amazing.

And yes it’s either pgm or a post 14 ai. Without a doubt the Ai will
be more practical, but it’s also nice to have something different. I’ve owned a few Ai over the years (pre 14) and just want something different. If performance is on par, I would lean towards the pgm.

 

[Zeroit]

Many options available?
In that price range you should get the whole enchilada.
Range Up to 800 meters, kinda not impressive.

 

[Tonsofguns]

Many options available?
In that price range you should get the whole enchilada.
Range Up to 800 meters, kinda not impressive.

Def not cheap, but Ai rifles come in just as expensive if not more. The ai asr comes in at $9k.

Range of 800 meters, I mean that depends on caliber and barrel length right? I don’t think that is any sort of testament to the system itself.

 

[Steel head]

Looks French

 

[Zeroit]

Def not cheap, but Ai rifles come in just as expensive if not more. The ai asr comes in at $9k.

Range of 800 meters, I mean that depends on caliber and barrel length right? I don’t think that is any sort of testament to the system itself.

Well, yes caliber will have a bering, barrel length etc.
And AI AT is about 4 grand also a lot of cheaper rifles from 1- 2 grand are potentially Just as capable.
My point was that was not a good marketing statement for a company putting out a high dollar rifle.
Frankly I have never heard of them and obviously have no experience with them, just wouldn't be my first choice if I was in the market for a high end rifle, it's your money and I would love to hear some feedback.
If it breaks what is their support here in the states?
If you have issues is there a number of people here on the hide you can ask for help?
I'm not knocking the rifle, maybe its the latest and greatest.
Have fun with it.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

I hate to break the news to you but I bet there is not a 1-2k dollar rifle that can function like the pgm does. Accuracy is meaningless if rifle doesn't fire/function because unreliable in environments.

The distance/marketing thing is because that makes things easier in regards to French regulations.

Definitely not the latest greatest...Foreign Legion has been using them for decades.

The rifle is pretty nice but is in needs of upgrades to bring it into modern-day.

Warranty/Repair should be much easier now that the rifle can be shipped back for depot level maintenance since firearms have been moved from ddtc to commerce.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Tonsofguns]

Well, yes caliber will have a bering, barrel length etc.
And AI AT is about 4 grand also a lot of cheaper rifles from 1- 2 grand are potentially Just as capable.
My point was that was not a good marketing statement for a company putting out a high dollar rifle.
Frankly I have never heard of them and obviously have no experience with them, just wouldn't be my first choice if I was in the market for a high end rifle, it's your money and I would love to hear some feedback.
If it breaks what is their support here in the states?
If you have issues is there a number of people here on the hide you can ask for help?
I'm not knocking the rifle, maybe its the latest and greatest.
Have fun with it.

Ai at is not comparable to this model in terms of modularity and features. They have a more base rifle that would be an apple to Apple comparison, that goes for about the same as the ai at. This model would be more similar to the axmc or asr.

With regards to support and parts, yes this is something I will need to verify. More concerned with parts availability than anything.

Any any case $7k is not chump change to me, hence why I wanted to see if anyone had experience with these rifles before I took a dive.

 

[Tonsofguns]

Hi,

I hate to break the news to you but I bet there is not a 1-2k dollar rifle that can function like the pgm does. Accuracy is meaningless if rifle doesn't fire/function because unreliable in environments.

The distance/marketing thing is because that makes things easier in regards to French regulations.

Definitely not the latest greatest...Foreign Legion has been using them for decades.

The rifle is pretty nice but is in needs of upgrades to bring it into modern-day.

Warranty/Repair should be much easier now that the rifle can be shipped back for depot level maintenance since firearms have been moved from ddtc to commerce.

Sincerely,
Theis

Where do you think it fails in terms of being up to date?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

The barrel change feature.

The grip angle.

The utilization of various forend attachments such as arca rail, etc etc.

The forend stubbiness causes odd pivots when using bipod.

Too many different size screws and such, almost no cross compatibility in sizes.

The cheek piece can be too low for most people.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Tonsofguns]

Hi,

The barrel change feature.

The grip angle.

The utilization of various forend attachments such as arca rail, etc etc.

The forend stubbiness causes odd pivots when using bipod.

Too many different size screws and such, almost no cross compatibility in sizes.

The cheek piece can be too low for most people.

Sincerely,
Theis

Interesting. You are correct that this rifle was made 30 years ago and has not had many changes made to it since.

The barrel change seems good no? 4 hex screws and done in less than a minute.

Is there issues with using various attachments like the arca?

I can’t stand slanted grips and I’m always surprised when I get a nice modern rifle like a scar or KAC and it has an a2 grip on it. That has to be an easy fix, again I need to look at parts availability.

Cross comparability with screws def minor annoyance.

 

[LeftyJason]

I would say save your money for when @THEIS comes out with his Hoplite Arms rifles. If you haven't read that thread you should.

 

[THEIS]

I would say save your money for when @THEIS comes out with his Hoplite Arms rifles. If you haven't read that thread you should.

Hi,

I typically do not mention that myself in threads where people are asking about something that I have experience with because most of the www automatically falls back to the "well that is why he said abc about xyz product I was asking about", when it really wasn't.

Sincerely,
Theis

Interesting. You are correct that this rifle was made 30 years ago and has had many changes made to it since.

The barrel change seems good no? 4 hex screws and done in less than a minute.

Is there issues with using various attachments like the arca?

I can’t stand slanted grips and I’m always surprised when I get a nice modern rifle like a scar or KAC and it has an a2 grip on it. That has to be an easy fix, again I need to look at parts availability.

Cross comparability with screws def minor annoyance.

Hi,

DISCLAIMER!!!!!! I have not put my hands on a PGM in about 8 years so the below things may have been fixed, I doubt it because I know the original designer.

The issue with barrel change is not how fast it can be done but more along the lines that 4 hex screws and pull barrel out procedure is not modern. The original designer of that process calls it the screw and grip....They need to put better indexing points not only on the barrel extension but inside the receiver too. It is literally a slot cut down the bottom middle of receiver that flexes open and screws hold around the inserted barrel extension.

Buttstock and Cheek Piece...while they do adjust, they adjust very little compared to modern rifles.

AND...personally...I just cannot support a firearms manufacturer that imposes its' own ban onto the market. PGM (They blame France Gov) will not allow their BMG to be sold to the USA civilian market.

Edited To Add: (Figured pic would help, lol)

Red highlights that cheek piece is barely at 1" adjustment range.
Blue highlights the mag release is not conducive to pressing and pulling magazine in 1 motion. It is way too far from the magazine.
Green highlights the forend by its attachment nature HAS to flex due to the single screw attachment method. I have spent the past year testing forend attachments and that one absolutely sucks, lol

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Tonsofguns]

Hi,

I typically do not mention that myself in threads where people are asking about something that I have experience with because most of the www automatically falls back to the "well that is why he said abc about xyz product I was asking about", when it really wasn't.

Sincerely,
Theis



Hi,

DISCLAIMER!!!!!! I have not put my hands on a PGM in about 8 years so the below things may have been fixed, I doubt it because I know the original designer.

The issue with barrel change is not how fast it can be done but more along the lines that 4 hex screws and pull barrel out procedure is not modern. The original designer of that process calls it the screw and grip....They need to put better indexing points not only on the barrel extension but inside the receiver too. It is literally a slot cut down the bottom middle of receiver that flexes open and screws hold around the inserted barrel extension.

Buttstock and Cheek Piece...while they do adjust, they adjust very little compared to modern rifles.

AND...personally...I just cannot support a firearms manufacturer that imposes its' own ban onto the market. PGM (They blame France Gov) will not allow their BMG to be sold to the USA civilian market.

Edited To Add: (Figured pic would help, lol)

Red highlights that cheek piece is barely at 1" adjustment range.
Blue highlights the mag release is not conducive to pressing and pulling magazine in 1 motion. It is way too far from the magazine.
Green highlights the forend by its attachment nature HAS to flex due to the single screw attachment method. I have spent the past year testing forend attachments and that one absolutely sucks, lol
View attachment 7475116

Sincerely,
Theis

ok, so made a typo there. I meant to say the rifle has not had many changes in 30 years i believe. They have added a rail on the right of the 4 hex screws.

this rifle does have a special place in my heart as my grandfather, a Spaniard, fought in the French foreign legion in France's vietnam war. So i like the idea of a nice French military sniper rifle.

However, I expect the rifle to perform on par with some of the best offering today, because at the end of the day, it's performance over a collectible relic.

You really seem to know your stuff, appreciated, I am gonna jump on your Hoplite thread.

 

[6brshooter]

Ai at is not comparable to this model in terms of modularity and features. They have a more base rifle that would be an apple to Apple comparison, that goes for about the same as the ai at. This model would be more similar to the axmc or asr.

With regards to support and parts, yes this is something I will need to verify. More concerned with parts availability than anything.

Any any case $7k is not chump change to me, hence why I wanted to see if anyone had experience with these rifles before I took a dive.

So this pgm let's you run 300wm, because that's what the axmc does? From that link you posted, looks just like short action 308 bolt face barrel options. I'd say the adjustments of an ai at are on par or better than this pgm. Both are folders, at uses a better mag, at has more latitude in cheekpiece adjustment, similar lop adjustment. At is very simple to put a nv bridge on, not sure on this pgm. Barrel change on ai is stupid easy, along with a bunch of barrel prefit options. How is barrel supply of pgm?

If you want it because of your grandfathers FFL service, that's cool. I wouldn't try to dick down ai because of that, just saying. Im sure its a capable enough rifle, I think its just goofy looking and not on same level as an ai, in functional attributes.

 

[LeftyJason]

Hi,

I typically do not mention that myself in threads where people are asking about something that I have experience with because most of the www automatically falls back to the "well that is why he said abc about xyz product I was asking about", when it really wasn't.

Sincerely,
Theis



Hi,

DISCLAIMER!!!!!! I have not put my hands on a PGM in about 8 years so the below things may have been fixed, I doubt it because I know the original designer.

The issue with barrel change is not how fast it can be done but more along the lines that 4 hex screws and pull barrel out procedure is not modern. The original designer of that process calls it the screw and grip....They need to put better indexing points not only on the barrel extension but inside the receiver too. It is literally a slot cut down the bottom middle of receiver that flexes open and screws hold around the inserted barrel extension.

Buttstock and Cheek Piece...while they do adjust, they adjust very little compared to modern rifles.

AND...personally...I just cannot support a firearms manufacturer that imposes its' own ban onto the market. PGM (They blame France Gov) will not allow their BMG to be sold to the USA civilian market.

Edited To Add: (Figured pic would help, lol)

Red highlights that cheek piece is barely at 1" adjustment range.
Blue highlights the mag release is not conducive to pressing and pulling magazine in 1 motion. It is way too far from the magazine.
Green highlights the forend by its attachment nature HAS to flex due to the single screw attachment method. I have spent the past year testing forend attachments and that one absolutely sucks, lol
View attachment 7475116

Sincerely,
Theis

Anybody here that has half a brain has learned to not mess with you. I figured you wouldn't mention your own rifle. That's why I did. It's the logical "other than an AI" rifle in that price range. Too bad I will never be able to afford one.

Anyone who reads that thread will realize you know your stuff and are trying to do things the correct way. You can also back up your knowledge. It's great to hear from someone who has personal experience.

 

[Cardinal]

AND...personally...I just cannot support a firearms manufacturer that imposes its' own ban onto the market. PGM (They blame France Gov) will not allow their BMG to be sold to the USA civilian market.

But that has also been the case with american .50 BMGs for a long time.....
.50 BMG rifles could only be exported from the US to Govt/LE, no civilian sales. It used to also include components so no .50 BMG bullets could exported either. And no .50 BMG barrels.
This may have changed in the last few years but I know about the only .50 BMG bullets which were available here was Lapua.

Same was true for suppressors, though that have changed.
Still true for gen 3 NV.
Still true for complete SBR (I belive)
Wouldnt be surprised if its also true for IR lasers but dont know for sure

 

[Cardinal]

Okay sounds like something has changed then. But I do know some wanted to buy Barret M99 at the Norwegian distributor (before the 50 BMG was banned here) but was told "no exports". Gunsmiths wanted 50 BMG barrels, but the exporters in the US said" no exports"

As to NV it must be US treaties as any grade European made can be bought.

Re: Suppressors: I'd take that bet!
Only nutcases like myself are wanting to import some.
In general terms from a european perspective, US suppressors are:

• Too heavy unless all titanium
• in the majority of cases no additional performance
• way too expensive
• way to much hazzle and problems buying them
• way too many restrictions with traveling abroad, selling them if you dont need them etc
• in practical terms ZERO warranty or service, even from clear defects in manufacturing

The advantages I see with them are mounting solutions. Sure, you have more "hard use" cans but since the use is vastly diffrent here, its really not an advantage. In fact it usually means they are heavy.

$600 is a fairly expensive suppressor for most users here. About 14ozs or more and its considered fairly heavy.
I would guess most pay around $450 for one (or less). For that they get a can which reduces sound as well as US made ones, low weight compared to non titanium US cans, and will last them years and years. Sure you cant do mag dumps in a semi auto (unless you buy those made for that, which cost more), but since 99%+ dont do that, its not really an issue
I am looking at 4 Dead Air and one YHM at first. All told dead air will probably be around 17-1800 apiece.

I dont think american buyers need have any concern with the waiting time getting too long due to exports.
Not until dealers can order them in bulk and have them on the shelf. Then a few more might buy some. Unlike now with a DSP83 and seperate export licence to each customer. Too expensive and inconvient in most cases.

Most users use them for slow fire on the range on bolt guns. Usually plenty of time to cool. And then when hunting. So for the most part the balance of db reduction and size/weight are what matters most.

But to give you an idea how commen they are, I have asked the biggest distributors/dealers on how many of those that buy their first rifle, how many also get a suppressor (meaning they dont have any already)? answer: usually 80-90+%

 

[Cardinal]

That exporter being Barrett Firearms....


Finding an exporter which is registered with US state dept for ITAR isnt that easy anymore since most firearms and parts were moved to Commerce. And they also need a SOT, which is also a problem.


Costs: Us State dept fee $250+, exporter fees 150 and up. But since you need an ITAR registerred with SOT they usually only deal with big exports to Gov/LE or foreign distributors only. Not too many bother with a few cans... Found one said yes. but their usual customer are more of teh "Hi, we want 50mil rounds of ammo" or "we want 40mm HEDP and some M203s" etc (your fault for not having the SOT ready. )
Shipping is fairly expensive since UPS/FedEx dont like guns/ITAR items internationally. So it usually means a freight co.
And since the companies are usually idiots when it comes to firearms and regulations, often extra handling and storage fees can be added on.
(as an aside, I've heard the Postal Offce managed to clasify a bipod as "sight for mortar".....)
I also get hit with 25% tax.
But it may include some mounts. Have to check. Thats another issue, have to buy everything at once.


We are also way off-topic here. perhaps a Mod could split it off and move it to Suppressors?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Yes we are way off topic, SORRY OP.

@Cardinal
Want to delete our OT stuff and bring to PM?
Removed my severely OT threads. Sorry OP.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Tonsofguns]

No worries, keep at it, it I find it interesting. I think I found out what I needed about the pgm. I’ll most likely put that aside and either buy an ai or even wait and see what your building.

The cons of shortcomings outweighs the pros of wanting a nice French rifle.



QUOTE="THEIS, post: 9027919, member: 117689"]
Hi,

Yes we are way off topic, SORRY OP.

@Cardinal
Want to delete our OT stuff and bring to PM?
Removed my severely OT threads. Sorry OP.

Sincerely,
Theis
[/QUOTE]

So this pgm let's you run 300wm, because that's what the axmc does? From that link you posted, looks just like short action 308 bolt face barrel options. I'd say the adjustments of an ai at are on par or better than this pgm. Both are folders, at uses a better mag, at has more latitude in cheekpiece adjustment, similar lop adjustment. At is very simple to put a nv bridge on, not sure on this pgm. Barrel change on ai is stupid easy, along with a bunch of barrel prefit options. How is barrel supply of pgm?

If you want it because of your grandfathers FFL service, that's cool. I wouldn't try to dick down ai because of that, just saying. Im sure its a capable enough rifle, I think its just goofy looking and not on same level as an ai, in functional attributes.

for sure,

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Because I demand Hoplite Arms to be absolutely customer relationship driven I can do things some of the other manufacturers don't do on the relationship side.

If you remember your Grandfathers Legion unit I can machine that into the receiver or chassis.
I suggest receiver and IF you have any medals that he earned I can embed the best one into the chassis.

I have a few friends in The Legion if you need help with medals or such.

Sincerely,
Theis