Gunsmithing PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

[LRI]

The stock is getting low, so it's again time to whip up a batch of these buggers.

Here's how they start. 300 series SS chopped up in 24" lengths. (what I'd give for a bar feeder. .

)

Program gets loaded into the machine and now were off to setting up the tool package.

Fist item is using this collet to center the chuck. It functions just like a 4 jaw basically. The ground stub on this allows me to indicate to a zero TIR (total indicated runout) value. Not rocket science, just good machining practice.

Notice the black sharpie line, that's Zero.

Rotate 180* and the indicator stays the same. Were set!

This drill doesn't have a very good geometry for stainless. I much prefer a 118* drill with a split point as its far, far less tool pressure to drill the hole. This'll be solved with a short walk to the Darex drill sharpener. Neat little machine.

Setting up the flute timing so the cutting surface gets ground properly.

 

[LRI]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

Now onto grinding the edge.

Next we split the point so that the chisel action of a typical drill is avoided. We now have four cutting surfaces on the drill that will require much less pressure from the turret and less heat generation. This'll make the tool survive much longer. The ultimate would be a through coolant carbide drill as it would allow much more aggressive feed rates and I'd probably only have to retract once or twice during the drill cycle to evacuate the chips. They also are quite pricey (well over $140 a piece) so for now we'll stick with HSS.

In the turret and ready to make some holes.

Now were set up, tools are touched off, and were ready to get to the business of running these buggers.

Profiling:

Notice the chit finish. This is why coolant is so important. I run my 1st article dry so I can leave the door open to get a good look at what's going on. Doing so leaves fungus (poor finish) on the part. With the coolant on this won't happen. We'll just dry cycle this again once I'm certain everything is kosher with the program/setup.

From here we center drill which also adds a nice chamfer on the leading edge of the hole, then we come in with the drill and run to depth.

Next is the parting tool that chops it off. Bar puller then comes in, chuck releases, and we reset the material the start position, chuck clamps, and were off and running to repeat the cycle. I get 12 parts per 2' stick.

This is just the 1st op. 2nd op is in the mill to profile the radius to match the receiver. (notice the difference on the right one)

More to come as time allows.

C

 

[eddief]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

Off the subject Chad, but you make me phuckin' laugh....Everytime I see a picture of the inside of your shop I think of how much stock you should own in Sam's Club. Their benches and such can't be beat, I'm jealous.. Congrats on everything

 

[LRI]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

Thanks.

I priced out Lista cabinets. ONE by itself was over $2000.00

I don't think I have much over that invested in all my cabinets/racks/benches in the whole shop. Lista would be awesome to have but all it does is sit there and hold stuff. Was really, really hard for me to justify the expense.

I'd rather buy tooling or something that makes money.

Thanks again for the kind remarks.

C

 

[GasLight]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

How do you split the tip on the drill bit?

 

[LRI]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

The old school way I learned was to have a nice crisp wheel on a bench grinder that runs nice and true.

It sucked and while learning I turned a great many jobber length drills into stub length screw machine sizes.

The Darex makes it easy. Just pull it from the edge sharpener side and go the drill point side. You adjust the depth until it runs in the middle. (total eyeball deal, but easy to do. Ray Charles would likely struggle though. . .

Then rotate 180* and repeat.

Takes about 2 min to tune up a drill once you get a feel for how the machine works.

 

[bptactical]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

Speaking of pillars-
Any good research/discussions on pillar material? Aluminum, steel or stainless.
Pro/con's of each material?
Your preferences and why?

 

[LRI]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

Bo Clerke, owner of Clerke International is one sharp ol cat who's been making stuff longer than most here have existed on the planet.
He's in his early 90's now and still has more piss/vinegar than a 10 year old.

He said it best I think. "Anything worth making is worth making out of steel."

The weight savings of AL over SS is marginal. 15% at best. If we were making spars for fighter jets that 15% means something. On a pillar that weighs 1.2oz the increase in material costs and concerns over permanent adhesion give me cause to stick with SS.

No electrolysis to fret over and your gun gets more chicks with stainless pillars too.

That has to count for something.

 

[banshee sws]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

I KNEW IT !! chicks really do dig steel . . .

too funny sir !

 

[bptactical]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bo Clerke, owner of Clerke International is one sharp ol cat who's been making stuff longer than most here have existed on the planet.
He's in his early 90's now and still has more piss/vinegar than a 10 year old.

He said it best I think. "Anything worth making is worth making out of steel."

The weight savings of AL over SS is marginal. 15% at best. If we were making spars for fighter jets that 15% means something. On a pillar that weighs 1.2oz the increase in material costs and concerns over permanent adhesion give me cause to stick with SS.

No electrolysis to fret over and your gun gets more chicks with stainless pillars too.

That has to count for something.

</div></div>

Thanks Chuck!
Just the lucid response I was hunting for.
One question comes to mind with Al pillars- is the unequal expansion/contraction of Al a valid concern? It stands to reason that steel pillars will expand/contract at the same rate as the action screws and therefore your torque on the action screws would remain constant. Now if you toss Al pillars in it would seem to me that you introduce a "wildcard" into the equation. Would not the Al pillars on a warm day possibly expand more than the steel screws. If the pillars expand would that not induce additional tension on the screws, acting the same as increasing the torque on the screws?
Would not the reverse be true if the pillars contract at a different rate?

 

[JimT]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

Darex V390

Not for the faint of wallet.

 

[Mike308Bell]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

Chad.....when you get time, can you please explain the point of indicating what ever you started the post with? You lost me since your using collets.

 

[LRI]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

All I'm doing essentially is indicating the female taper the collet locates off of.

In a part like this its really not critical since I'm machining everything. Reason I do it is vibration. (death to a spindle)

Keeping things on center reduces the hum.

 

[High Binder]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

I ran a Citizen lathe for years (duel spindle with two live heads for milling and drilling) with a 12' bar feeder. They took the whole thing bar feeder and all to the dump when one of the boards in the back fried! Unbelievable...

 

[Mike308Bell]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

Is the collect adjustable? Im kinda lost on why you would need to indicate something for run out that has nothing to do with the pillars. Unless....you looking for the middle of the run out if your part OD is so close to the stock OD....

Im only asking cause I run a CNC lathe all day and I have never indicated anything when using a collet. We use a basic Fanuac powered Kia lathe with 14 tool positions and all I do is swap out collects, set Z and roll. Other then the nornmal wear offsets, my "Z" work shift G54 is all I ever change unless I change the tool holder. All the tools are set to the G54 Z zero, which I qualify by facing with the #1 tool which is my turning tool. All my programs are based on G54 Z zero at the face of the part so all tools are pre-set at the face being "G54 Z Zero", I never have to change anything other then the normal wear offsets. This makes everything super easy and all I have to do is look into the heading or (program title block) as I list my work location numbers in every program, unless its a new program. All I use are collets so I can change jobs and be rolling on the next one in less then five minutes unless I need to change spindle tubes then its 10 minutes.

The thought of indicating something bar feed in a collect has thrown me for a loop. I just cant grasp or understand the need for this. I can see setting up a Rem action and indicating everything and dialng it in on a four jaw for a truing job, but indicating a pucked part in a collet has scrambled my eggs.

 

[LRI]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

I have a Dunham 16C collet chuck on my turning center.

It's adjustable for TIR just like a four jaw. I use this to barrel up actions. Because we know the OD of a barrel isn't nessessarily concentric to the ID bore I have to move the chuck face to get centered. It's centered for that job and that job only.

If a day later I'm running a batch of production parts it behooves me to ensure my chuck is running on center. This will aid in reducing vibration as a 24" long piece of 3/4" OD material buzzes around in there at 3000+ rpm.

I'm not indicating to make the part run true as it's going to run on center of spindle no matter what the moment a tool produces a chip. I am however making sure the OD of the part is on center to reduce the "jump rope" affect it has and the vibration that results.

This chuck is also beneficial for 2nd operations. If I ran a batch of whatever and I need a feature to be concentric with another one, this gives me the capacity to indicate it to that feature.

Like I said, not rocket science, just good machining practice.


I touch all my tools off with a preseter. I never made an effort to use it till about a year ago. prior to that I just touched everything off at the spindle nose and then ran a piece of stock to set the X offsets. Probably similar to what your doing. Use one tool as the "datum" tool to determine a Z shift for work offsets and just base all the rest to center. In 99.9% of instances this is fine. I do however make some small screws and stuff and have conjured up a method to make a slotted screw in one operation. Including the slot! I don't have live tooling either.

Just took an inserted grooving tool and modified the holder so it runs to center. Then use it as a shaper with a series of GO (rapid) passes across the head of the screw in .002" increments. Looks pretty cool when it's running.

That's about the only "wierd" thing I'm doing where the offset changes a bit.

 

[damoncali]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BPTactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks Chuck!
Just the lucid response I was hunting for.
One question comes to mind with Al pillars- is the unequal expansion/contraction of Al a valid concern? It stands to reason that steel pillars will expand/contract at the same rate as the action screws and therefore your torque on the action screws would remain constant. Now if you toss Al pillars in it would seem to me that you introduce a "wildcard" into the equation. Would not the Al pillars on a warm day possibly expand more than the steel screws. If the pillars expand would that not induce additional tension on the screws, acting the same as increasing the torque on the screws?
Would not the reverse be true if the pillars contract at a different rate? </div></div>

Yes, the difference in thermal expansion will change the action screw preload. If it's done right, that shouldn't matter much. If the screws hold, they hold. If they don't you've got a bigger problem. But this would tip me towards steel pillars (in addition to the reasons that Mr. Dixon gave) - why worry about it over a truly trivial weight savings?

The other side of the coin is that many accurate rifles have been built with aluminum pillars... just sayin'.

 

[LRI]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

Onto the mill operation.

I'm considering some design changes. Nothing would tickle me more than to sell a pile of these things. That being said I'm trying to make them more user friendly for a guy at home with limited assets in his garage.

I think this is the best revision. I widened the center rib to offer additional purchase to the receiver and to resist the pillar trying to rotate when snugging up the screw/stud that holds the pillar to the action during bedding. I left the bottom round which makes it easier to counterbore the stock (3/4" spade bit is all that's needed) while still leaving flats on the sides that will lock the pillar into place both up/down and rotation once the bedding compound cures.

Whatcha'll think?


New revision: (?) I think I like this. It won't mean much to me the way I do stock work, but for a guy at home it could really make a difference.

Old way I've used for years:

 

[SDLAW]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

What is the advantage to leaving the bottom round, since the diameter across corners is the same? I would think the epoxy would fill better without the round acting like a baffle. Just my observation. PS I always look forward to your posts.

 

[LRI]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

The square register presents a challenge for a guy at home bedding a gun in his garage. Unless he has some serious woodworking equipment (router, mortising tool, cnc mill, etc) it's unlikely he'll be able to cut a square pocket (actually an octogon) in the stock for the pillar to reside in. Maybe if he's a bad ass with a chisel. . .

Doing it this way all that's needed is a 3/4" spade bit and a 17/32 drill. Drill with a spade first to a depth of 1" from the showline and the center of the spade serves as a pilot for the smaller drill, making both holes reasonably concentric to each other.

The round bottom registers off the 3/4 bore cut by the spade. The cylinder portion of the pillar runs through the stock. The squared corners will mechanically lock with the epoxy and prevent any rotation once it cures. The contoured pillar ribs prevents the pillar from rotating during the bedding process when stuff is still wet while providing the 1:1 contact that's desired. The raised rib is .05" above the rest of the pillar to allow for almost total captivation of the pillar in the stock.

Once the resin cures the part cannot rotate or move in either direction. It's completely locked in position from all perspectives.

It's the best compromise of all the features I think.

As far as the baffle issue. That is easily solved with careful application of the epoxy. The same can be said for the gaps between the ribs. It's a simple solution that I'll cover later in another thread/announcement that were working on.

Thanks for the input, this is the kind of feedback I'm after.

 

[SDLAW]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

The way I look at it is this: A square peg fits in a round hole as long as the hole is big enough.

 

[bptactical]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: damoncali</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BPTactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks Chuck!
Just the lucid response I was hunting for.
One question comes to mind with Al pillars- is the unequal expansion/contraction of Al a valid concern? It stands to reason that steel pillars will expand/contract at the same rate as the action screws and therefore your torque on the action screws would remain constant. Now if you toss Al pillars in it would seem to me that you introduce a "wildcard" into the equation. Would not the Al pillars on a warm day possibly expand more than the steel screws. If the pillars expand would that not induce additional tension on the screws, acting the same as increasing the torque on the screws?
Would not the reverse be true if the pillars contract at a different rate? </div></div>

Yes, the difference in thermal expansion will change the action screw preload. If it's done right, that shouldn't matter much. If the screws hold, they hold. If they don't you've got a bigger problem. But this would tip me towards steel pillars (in addition to the reasons that Mr. Dixon gave) - why worry about it over a truly trivial weight savings?

The other side of the coin is that many accurate rifles have been built with aluminum pillars... just sayin'. </div></div>

Thank you! I will be bedding a 700 in a Mcmillian A5 and Badger metal this week and was curious about the Al pillars they provided.
One set of steel pillars coming up!
Thanks again!

 

[pawprint]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bo Clerke, owner of Clerke International is one sharp ol cat who's been making stuff longer than most here have existed on the planet.
He's in his early 90's now and still has more piss/vinegar than a 10 year old.

He said it best I think. "Anything worth making is worth making out of steel."

The weight savings of AL over SS is marginal. 15% at best. If we were making spars for fighter jets that 15% means something. On a pillar that weighs 1.2oz the increase in material costs and concerns over permanent adhesion give me cause to stick with SS.

No electrolysis to fret over and your gun gets more chicks with stainless pillars too.

That has to count for something.

</div></div> Bo Clerke is a genius! I'll add my, thanks for the lesson-first shelf work to say the least.

 

[LRI]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

Here is an example of one installed. I ran this block real quick just to see how we'd end up.

I like it. best of two worlds and it's easier for a guy at home to put it to use.

3/4" spade, a 17/32 drill, and the skill to drill a counterbore 1" deep from the showline is all that's needed now for the DIY gun plumber.

 

[Mike308Bell]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

Thanks Chad, Your knowledge is much apreciated. Ive never seen a collect set up other then a basic 16C on a CNC lath so I didnt know what you where indicating for.

Today I was told I was getting in addition to another Sharp mill like we got last month...Im getting a new 12ft bar feeder cause the new six month old little 4 ft. one was taking to much time to have to cut our 12ft stock into 4ft bars......problem is for me...Its a single bar loader. My little one I can stack up 10 or 20- bars on the rack and run it all day as long as I keep adding them to the rack. So now I will be wasting time loading a bar every 10 minutes...... Whatever, at this point I dont care as long as the pay checks keep coming.

Thanks again for the explaination of the indicating set up.

 

[RTO]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

Chad, what are you doing for a winny? I want to bed my FN but not real crazy about the half pillars?

 

[LRI]

Re: PILLAR MaDnEsS TuEsDaY!

Same basic pillar design only they are flat on top.

It does require a little "whitlin" in the trigger well but it's not too big a deal.