PISTOL BRACE

[Tx_Aggie]

Full disclosure: I have only started watching this video now. It's a long one but Mr. Kirk is usually very informative and worth listening to.

The same Mr. Kirk who's greatest contribution to the 2A community is harassing an ATF attorney until he got the worst possible interpretation of F1 precursor parts?

No way I'm watching any more of that blowhard's videos.

Wouldn't surprise me if he helped them write the damn pistol brace rule by incessantly asking for interpretation letters.

 

[Longshot231]

The same Mr. Kirk who's greatest contribution to the 2A community is harassing an ATF attorney until he got the worst possible interpretation of F1 precursor parts?

No way I'm watching any more of that blowhard's videos.

Wouldn't surprise me if he helped them write the damn pistol brace rule by incessantly asking for interpretation letters.

IIRC he was reaching out to an ATF attorney on behalf of a client that he represented. That's his job as an attorney; to act on behalf and to represent his client.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

The bump stock ban really was bullshit b/c it clearly failed the clear language of the statute.

This is more fuzzy to me (just my opinion) b/c these “braces” are definitely being utilized as rear stocks to let the shooter hold the weapon as a rifle, which likely has a barrel of less than 16 inches.

Apples to oranges so to speak.

Braces were approved to meet the standards of the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act.)

Banning them will deprive disabled individuals from their rights. This alone should negate the 'rule.'

Well, there ya go.

Sirhr

 

[Longshot231]

Braces were approved to meet the standards of the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act.)

Banning them will deprive disabled individuals from their rights. This alone should negate the 'rule.'

Well, there ya go.

Sirhr

That makes sense to the majority of us on this forum. However, lawyers and judges don't use common sense.

They would sue a bucket maker if instructions weren't written on the container instructing the end-user how to fill and empty the device.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

That makes sense to the majority of us on this forum. However, lawyers and judges don't use common sense.

They would sue a bucket maker if instructions weren't written on the container instructing the end-user how to fill and empty the device.

Or that your kid could drown in it... All because of a couple of stupid kids.

Sirhr

 

[AngryKoala]

Be interesting to see what happens, hopefully they get some lawsuits going quick on this one. I've seen indoor ranges and DNR at public ranges around here ask for paperwork on NFA stuff, suppressors, SBR's etc.

Personally for me I basically see this as free Form 1's for anything I thought I might want to form 1 already. I bet the amount of guys taking advantage of this as just that is going to be massive.

The people that are probably really between a rock and a hard place in my mind are those that own these guns and live in a state that does not allow SBR's, because they are either running afoul of the ATF, or their state laws.

Not really surprising, we can of course argue that any NFA regulation is unconstitutional but beyond that, anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that braces were just skirting SBR/NFA rules in the first place.

The ATF site has two documents showing various guns and braces they now consider SBR's, basically anything that's popular with a brace is pictured there as now an SBR. Pretty much any AR, AK, MPX, CZ Scorpion, bolt rifles with braces, and pretty much any brace design that's popular the last few years.

That's how they want you to see it and because too many Americans are dumb they will see it the same way.

 

[wvfarrier]

The Congressional Review Act Gives GOP House Opportunity to Stop ATF Stabilizer Brace Rule

Members of Congress are talking about using the Congressional Review Act to block the ATF's stabilizer brace ban.

www.breitbart.com

 

[Longshot231]

I'm amazed at the amount of uninformed braced-pistol owners. They are totally oblivious to the new rule. When it's explained to them, I usually get the deer-in-the-headlights look.

Or they try to argue the constitution. The ones that try to argue that the constitution will protect them have never been in a courtroom.

 

[NoDopes]

I have a spare frame I may register just in some slight chance this doest get tossed on it's ass.
Didn't the Bruen case just rule that dangerous, scary, public good, are no longer valid reasons for gun control. This is the entire premise on NFA. They should have just killed it right then. Fuck.

 

[1911hombre]

I have a spare frame I may register just in some slight chance this doest get tossed on it's ass.
Didn't the Bruen case just rule that dangerous, scary, public good, are no longer valid reasons for gun control. This is the entire premise on NFA. They should have just killed it right then. Fuck.

“Frame”???

 

[NoDopes]

“Frame”???

Lower/receiver/frame without the parts kit installed yet.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Personally for me I basically see this as free Form 1's for anything I thought I might want to form 1 already. I bet the amount of guys taking advantage of this as just that is going to be massive.

Supposedly there is a provision that somehow keeps you from doing just that. Like it has to have been something that was clearly a pistol beforehand assuming with a matching brace purchase. I’m not sure how the heck they’d know or apply this especially in the case of AR lowers since they could be either as they aren’t built yet, AKA it ain’t the same as buying like a z5p which goes on the transfer as a pistol. However, I do seem to recall an FFL asking me once whether I wanted to keep as rifle or pistol config. Either way I won’t be able to go buy a bunch of lowers after it goes public next week and then take advantage of this. Now, if you already had something as a pistol and could prove brace purchase then you could totally do this. Thing is, if this rule is real then I have no idea how they’d enforce this because they’d then be telling on themselves of keeping a registry on weapons they aren’t supposed to keep records of. I mean we all know they do this anyways but this would then be blatant admission of them saying hey we know you bought this pistol back on x date and your cc records show you bought a brace from this store on x date, now you have to convert this to an SBR. This would prove without a doubt publicly that they are already keeping records that they shouldn’t be.

 

[jakelly]

I've heard, can't verify, technically it's just the ATF

Now you're using your noodle. SBRs are illegal just about everywhere WITHOUT a stamp.

So you could try and stand on principle saying you only have to produce the stamp for the ATF, and the response will be, "Cool, you're under arrest for possession of a dangerous/illegal weapon."

That said, I think it's a red herring scenario and kind of dubious legally. I'm trying to think of another object where merely possessing it would be sufficient reasonable suspicion for a contact when the reality is anyone that posses the object likely possesses it legally.

Maybe alcohol for people in their early 20s? You'd be on shaky ground contacting a couple guys, at a bar, and demanding to see ID to verify the beers in their hand were legal to possess.

That's basically what everyone is afraid of with the whole "Cops are going to ask to see my stamp at the gun range" scenario.

Or better yet, the dreaded traffic stop. If the passenger is holding the beer, unopened, it would be like demanding ID from the passenger to verify legal possession secondary to the driver's traffic infraction.

Passengers aren't required to identify themselves on a traffic stop. They haven't committed a violation, the driver is the one being "stopped" not the passenger.

So all these hypothetical scenarios people worry about are pretty far fetched, IMO. If you get popped on a warrant dealing coke out of your apartment and they find a braced AR pistol that breaks the rules, yeah figure that's getting tacked on.

If you're Joe Schmoe at the range, live your fuckin life. The man ain't after you. Unless you give him a reason, so don't.

Everybody has to produce papers. As mentioned the rule of law is dead. I won’t place myself in a position where I rely on a cop to know the law. My priorities are stay alive, stay free, and retain my property in that order.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Everybody has to produce papers. As mentioned the rule of law is dead. I won’t place myself in a position where I rely on a cop to know the law. My priorities are stay alive, stay free, and retain my property in that order.

So, your going to register?

 

[SilentStalkr]

I’m also curious how this is going to work for people that have Roni braces. What gets the engraving, the brace or the pistol? That thing was designed to pop pistols in and out of it. So in this case, once done in SBR does that pistol have to remain mated to that brace now forever, as in it can’t go back to just being a regular carry G19 or something? There is lots of issues with this rule change that are now so easily solved. Yes, I think this will get slapped down.

And if this is all about concealability then are bullpups going to have to be SBRd also because even tho they meet the barrel length requirements I think some of them are just as short and just as easily concealed as a pistol with a brace. Pretty sure a friend of mines Tavor is the same length as another buddy of mines GHm9 with brace so...

 

[jakelly]

So, you’re going to register?

Nope. I don’t own any braces. I actually had one in my cart and was going to do this to one of my rifles so I could take the stupid pinned and welded BCM brake off and install an adjustable gas block. But now I won’t even buy the stupid thing.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Nope. I don’t own any braces. I actually had one in my cart and was going to do this to one of my rifles so I could take the stupid pinned and welded BCM brake off and install an adjustable gas block. But now I won’t even buy the stupid thing.

Live free my man!

 

[mi650]

The courts are full of communist assholes. SCOTUS is not going to uphold the Constitution.

Rule of law is dead...period.

I think the current SCOTUS would. By the time it gets there? God only knows.

 

[NoDopes]

My understanding from awhile back is that even if it hasn't been built yet, once you declare intention, it is locked in. That's the part of them making up laws as they go.

 

[SilentStalkr]

My dilemma is I was going to form 1 some of these anyways and now I get to do so free of charge. On the other hand, I kind of want to take a stand cause I think this is BS.

 

[jakelly]

My understanding from awhile back is that even if it hasn't been built yet, once you declare intention, it is locked in. That's the part of them making up laws as they go.

Exactly! There is no point discussing the nuances of how the law will apply. Clearly law isn’t presiding over this matter. This is tyranny, law is written in the moment by the agent. And you comply or not. Fight your battle in the courts or the streets. Choice is yours.

 

[jakelly]

My dilemma is I was going to form 1 some of these anyways and now I get to do so free of charge. On the other hand, I kind of want to take a stand cause I think this is BS.

I think what other people have tried to show is the point that this won’t give you an SBR. Not fully. The “free” part is for, essentially, a new designation. A SBR with a brace (which is an oxymoron on two fronts). It seems it’s not a full SBR in that you can now upgrade your lousy brace stock for a nice solid stock. Then you would have an SBR not an SBR/Pistol w/brace.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

A big reason for qualified immunity was that the cops don't know the law. Judges, lawyers and the idiots that wrote them don't know all the laws. So the default for the cops is to arrest and let them figure it out in the courts. Meanwhile the citizens get fucked.

Everybody has to produce papers. As mentioned the rule of law is dead. I won’t place myself in a position where I rely on a cop to know the law. My priorities are stay alive, stay free, and retain my property in that order.

 

[jakelly]

A big reason for qualified immunity was that the cops don't know the law. Judges, lawyers and the idiots that wrote them don't know all the laws. So the default for the cops is to arrest and let them figure it out in the courts. Meanwhile the citizens get fucked.

Exactly. Fight for 5 years, go broke, tear your family apart, then cry on TV talking about a victory and justice prevailing. I’ll pass.

 

[jakelly]

Lol. Let me get this straight, their letters of interpretation aren’t valid anymore, we’re now to use the FAQ section of their website.

Yes, this confusion is coming from us lazy folks not thoroughly reading the FAQ section attached to the new laws in our banana republic. We are to blame, Todd.

 

[NoDopes]

#23 also makes it clear that if you decide to change your braced gun back to a "pistol" but you retain the brace, you may still be considered in violation of NFA as "constructive possession".

This doesn't make sense to me.(edit: ah, if you decide not to register...)

On another note, I think this also means if this is your first and it's I'm your name and not a shared trust, your wife/roommate/etc must not have access to it, i.e. combination to the safe.

Something to think about for anyone that hasn't done one before.

 

[jakelly]

For crying out loud the hot link to the FAQ has the word “corrected” in it. Talk about fruit of the poison tree.

 

[NoDopes]

This should clear things up

 

[camocorvette]

 

[jakelly]

It's my understanding this is pretty typical for the ATF, in that if you possess the parts to build something in violation, they can consider that intent to construct. If I remember right they did this with suppressor "kits" or "parts" as well. Before everyone was skirting SBR rules with braced AR's this used to come up when guys would ask if they could get in trouble for just owning a SBR upper, but not having it assembled on a lower. My guess is they look at this the same way.

That said, to me it's a slipper slope (but what isn't with the ATF!) because in reality they could easily say: "Well sure you Form 1'd two SBR's with braces on them, but there's nothing stopping you from taking those braces off and putting them on the other 5 AR's you have and turning them into unregistered SBR's! It's really quite silly, I mean I own a hacksaw, so I could easily make SBR's just by sawing stocks and barrels off.

I'd also agree that like with other NFA items, if you don't do a trust you better ensure no one else has access to them.

At the end of the day, in any situation when you have one group trying to make rules to stop something, and another group trying to find loopholes, and both them have a lot of $$$ behind them, this is the type of shit show you're going to see. Doesn't matter if it's guns, Nascar, or Lance Armstrong doping for cycling.

I know paranoia and the sky is falling is a popular here, but honestly when was the last time you ever heard of someone being prosecuted by the ATF that was an otherwise quiet law abiding gun owner? In 40 years of very active shooting, I've only ever even heard of a couple first hand reports of visits from the ATF, much less any actual issue. In fact both cases revolved around someone making very large volume of gun purchases in a short time and the ATF simply interested if they were a straw seller. Neither case went past a nice friendly chat, my guess is like most investigators these guys can figure out if your a problem pretty quickly.

in 2021 the ATF recommended 16,500 cases for prosecution (That's firearms, explosives, arson, and tobacco cases), and only 7000 of those went to prosecution .......the AVERAGE for those 16,500 defendants was 8.2 prior arrests and 2.3 prior convictions. They clearly are not targeting law abiding citizens for prosecution. Buddy of mine is a retired federal prosecutor for firearms and wildlife violations, they aren't going to bother with some poor guy that has a brace sitting in the back of their gun safe unless you've done a lot of other stuff to attract their attention first.

* And occasionally they murder your family like at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

You do realize you are making an appeal to “trust the good guys” while the “good guys” are defying the supreme law of the land, breaking their oath, and even controverting their own precedents and definitions, right?

If they’re so benevolent and righteous why not just stay in their lane? It’s not like there has been some big push by criminals to utilize braces, has there?

No, it’s because they are absolutely targeting law abiding citizens, @ToddM. Criminals don’t care about stocks or barrel lengths. It’s not that we default to “the sky is falling” you’re just not reasoning very clearly, @ToddM. If I thought like you, hell, I’d be vaccinated.

 

[AngryKoala]

* And occasionally they murder your family like at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

You do realize you are making an appeal to “trust the good guys” while the “good guys” are defying the supreme law of the land, breaking their oath, and even controverting their own precedents and definitions, right?

If they’re so benevolent and righteous why not just stay in their lane? It’s not like there has been some big push by criminals to utilize braces, has there?

No, it’s because they are absolutely targeting law abiding citizens, @ToddM. Criminals don’t care about stocks or barrel lengths. It’s not that we default to “the sky is falling” you’re just not reasoning very clearly, @ToddM. If I thought like you, hell, I’d be vaccinated.

He's definitely vaccinated and triple boosted.

 

[Longshot231]

Lol. Let me get this straight, their letters of interpretation aren’t valid anymore, we’re now to use the FAQ section of their website.

Yes, this confusion is coming from us lazy folks not thoroughly reading the FAQ section attached to the new laws in our banana republic. We are to blame, Todd.

And don't forget, they reserve the right to change the answers to the questions.

 

[Preacher32]

Does a cop have the authority to ask for my tax stamp in the first place?

I’m a cop and the only time we ever investigated was when someone was acting suspicious or in place of another crime and all we could check was in NICS if the firearm was stolen or not. Other than that they were free to possess what they wanted and leave at their own free will.

 

[Desert_Racer]

I’m a cop and the only time we ever investigated was when someone was acting suspicious or in place of another crime and all we could check was in NICS if the firearm was stolen or not. Other than that they were free to possess what they wanted and leave at their own free will.

Thank you for sharing. That’s good info.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Here is my thing, I think things should be black and white. Right now there is way too much ambiguity and discretion. This whole thing about what cops might or might not do is stupid because it’s up to their discretion. A state trooper doesn’t have to give you a ticket for doing 120mph in a 70mph zone but are you gonna do 120mph in a 70mph on the reg because some dude on the internet claims he let a couple people go that have done that?

Your options are not register and live with the possible consequences or you register and get a free stamp and hope they never decide to go door to door because you will be one of the first stops and being an SBR it’s not like you can say you sold it Jake down the street so you don’t have it anymore.

This whole thing about people not having access to your nfa stuff is equally as retarded. I mean I get it but how is the ATF gonna know whether or not your wife knows the combo to the vault nor are they going to come looking to find out. What they mean is your wife cannot be in possession of it without you out in public, period.

 

[LawnMM]

Another good gotcha is that you cannot put these into a trust unless you can prove the gun was already part of the trust prior to 1/13/23. So they are also forcing people into individual forms. Which means unless you live alone it better be in a safe no one else has the combo to. You can of course move it to a trust later, for $200 of course.

Now their "rule making" power dictates what property I can add to my trust? L O L

How many reasons do you guys need?

 

[jakelly]

Here is my thing, I think things should be black and white. Right now there is way too much ambiguity and discretion. This whole thing about what cops might or might not do is stupid because it’s up to their discretion. A state trooper doesn’t have to give you a ticket for doing 120mph in a 70mph zone but are you gonna do 120mph in a 70mph on the reg because some dude on the internet claims he let a couple people go that have done that?

Your options are not register and live with the possible consequences or you register and get a free stamp and hope they never decide to go door to door because you will be one of the first stops and being an SBR it’s not like you can say you sold it Jake down the street so you don’t have it anymore.

This whole thing about people not having access to your nfa stuff is equally as retarded. I mean I get it but how is the ATF gonna know whether or not your wife knows the combo to the vault nor are they going to come looking to find out. What they mean is your wife cannot be in possession of it without you out in public, period.

Not to mention that the brace is a beacon. A citizen is probably less likely to encounter problems over a 14 1/2” barrel than the brace at this point. I’ll not touch one. That seems to be what they want. I’m certainly not going to skyline my family.

 

[JRaven]

I feel more confused after reading all this.

But what it sounds like is free SBRs for 120 days....but when has the GOV ever given tax payers something for free?

But what sux dix & cox is can't travel out of state with my shorty AR truck pistol anymore since it would become an SBR.

So now I have to roll with a 16" rifle? That isn't nearly as cool or maneuverable.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

So now I have to roll with a 16" rifle? That isn't nearly as cool or maneuverable.

Don't fret. I'm sure they are gonna address that little loophole as soon as they can as well.
I mean....why does anyone need to ride around with a semi automatic carbine in their automobile anyway? No one needs that except the properly trained authorities......

 

[Conrad101st]

I’m trying to figure out how you prove the weapon was in your trust. I have a real trust (revocable trust set up for my estate) set up by a law firm last year. This is not a gun specific trust but a full blown thirty page trust.

I signed an assignment giving “all my personal property into it including personsal effects, furniture, art, jewelry, firearms, etc.”

So that’s good. But what the hell are they asking for. I didn’t just list shit by serial number or item descriptions. Just said all if it.

 

[SanPatHogger]

And don't forget, they reserve the right to change the answers to the questions.

 

[redhooker]

Ok, here’s a real question.

What about braced PAP pistols? So now we can slap a 16 inch bbl on it and have a complete Serbian made AK47 RIFLE with all Serbian parts?

 

[Longshot231]

Ok, here’s a real question.

What about braced PAP pistols? So now we can slap a 16 inch bbl on it and have a complete Serbian made AK47 RIFLE with all Serbian parts?

The unwritten ATF rule: If it sounds like fun, then you cannot do it.

 

[atomic41]

So now I have to roll with a 16" rifle?

I'm thinking they did this because now people can't go anywhere with a loaded AR anymore. This gets rid of everyone carrying a loaded AR pistol (vehicle, back pack, etc) with their carry permit. Can't do it with a SBR, can't do it with a rifle so one little rule change and blammo...your right to keep and bear arms is restricted.

 

[91Eunozs]

Have 4 SBR’d lowers and several cans, so I’m not afraid of the paperwork…and as a retired .mil type, I just assume I’m in all the databases anyway.

Anyway, the sole reason I was considering an AR pistol was to travel across state lines without the stupid need to notify the ATF. An 8-9” 300 BLK makes a nice, compact self defense weapon. Might take my FJB/Let’s Go Brandon lower from PSA, or maybe get their new “Come and Bake It” lower with a gas range engraved on it and send those serial #s in to be SBR’d to test the waters on these asinine new regulations…not laws.

Or maybe take option #6…do nothing and wait for this to be halted by an injunction, and hopefully overturned.

In fact, I’m holding out hope that this will be the final step too far that causes the entire NFA to be thrown out as unconstitutional. Long shot, but one can hope.

 

[LawnMM]

Buy a bufferless bolt carrier, remove the brace and tube like a subgun and laugh in their faces

 

[SilentStalkr]

I think what other people have tried to show is the point that this won’t give you an SBR. Not fully. The “free” part is for, essentially, a new designation. A SBR with a brace (which is an oxymoron on two fronts). It seems it’s not a full SBR in that you can now upgrade your lousy brace stock for a nice solid stock. Then you would have an SBR not an SBR/Pistol w/brace.

What I was trying to say earlier, except you said it better!

Lol. Let me get this straight, their letters of interpretation aren’t valid anymore, we’re now to use the FAQ section of their website.

Yes, this confusion is coming from us lazy folks not thoroughly reading the FAQ section attached to the new laws in our banana republic. We are to blame, Todd.

Haha. Yeah.

I'm thinking they did this because now people can't go anywhere with a loaded AR anymore. This gets rid of everyone carrying a loaded AR pistol (vehicle, back pack, etc) with their carry permit. Can't do it with a SBR, can't do it with a rifle so one little rule change and blammo...your right to keep and bear arms is restricted.

Something else that most people may or may not be thinking about with this. It says you have to register them. It doesn’t say anything about them having to approve it. So if they don’t approve it then now you have given them your info and have admitted to a felony lol. I doubt everyone that was able to buy a brace will pass to be approved for an SBR. Hmmmmm...

Have 4 SBR’d lowers and several cans, so I’m not afraid of the paperwork…and as a retired .mil type, I just assume I’m in all the databases anyway.

Anyway, the sole reason I was considering an AR pistol was to travel across state lines without the stupid need to notify the ATF. An 8-9” 300 BLK makes a nice, compact self defense weapon. Might take my FJB/Let’s Go Brandon lower from PSA, or maybe get their new “Come and Bake It” lower with a gas range engraved on it and send those serial #s in to be SBR’d to test the waters on these asinine new regulations…not laws.

Or maybe take option #6…do nothing and wait for this to be halted by an injunction, and hopefully overturned.

In fact, I’m holding out hope that this will be the final step too far that causes the entire NFA to be thrown out as unconstitutional. Long shot, but one can hope.

Same. I’m hoping for your latter but haven’t decided what I’m doing yet. Already in the databases so id be a stop if they ever went full Canada but like you had a couple braced things mainly not to have to worry about all the NFA crap, AKA getting permission when taking it over state lines, being able to leave in car without worrying about the loss of an NFA item, etc. etc.

 

[Bluegrassvw]

Someone please correct me if I’m wrong here, but the new point system is the determining factor to whether your gun is a pistol or sbr not just the brace. (Essentially everything is an SBR using the point system) If you have flip up sights, a red dot, forward grip, hand stop, magnified optic, reflex sight, folding feature any combo of the above you have an SBR. Here is the link: https://www.atf.gov/file/154866/download

***UPDATE***
It’s been pointed out that the point system did not get added to Fridays rule change. I imagine they realized how ludicrous it was.

My apologies if the link raised anyone’s blood pressure.

 

[AngryKoala]

I'm thinking they did this because now people can't go anywhere with a loaded AR anymore. This gets rid of everyone carrying a loaded AR pistol (vehicle, back pack, etc) with their carry permit. Can't do it with a SBR, can't do it with a rifle so one little rule change and blammo...your right to keep and bear arms is restricted.

This is the killer that people aren't considering. They dangle "free" in front of it and the typical fuck tards are excited. Pistol braces are stupid but the ability to have more capability on your person wherever you go is not.

We are fucked if this is how the gun community acts about restrictions. Oh, no more AR-15s but you get a free snickers bar....poof, gone.

 

[Dragn’up]

The rule says in short. Register it, remove the brace or destroy it. Just take the damn brace off to carry in your vehicle. Now it’s just a pistol (as long as it was bought as a pistol).
Edit: if you choose to register it and fear being a felon after the 120 days grace period or they choose not to approve form 1, keep the brace off during that time, you won’t be in violation of their rule.