Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

[halowords]

I'm trying to get a grasp on my options for a semi-automatic piston-based rifle. I have an AR-15 rifle that I'm planning on trading uppers to go from a rifle-length to mid-length or carbine length, just not sure which upper. However, we traded some stuff in and have enough to consider another rifle which I am thinking of using for getting into competitions and maybe eventually using a suppressor. But basically I am looking for a practical utilitarian purpose piston rifle to add to the rotation and be easy to clean. I am probably keeping it in the 5.56 family to consolidate the rounds & share magazines with the AR.

My basic criteria are:

1) Reliable (for obvious reasons)
2) Reasonable weight & balance: I realize nothing will likely be as light as an AR-15, however I still want something fun and manageable. Ditto on...
3) Ergonomics: I'm flexible and not really married to any platform, just want the controls to be comfortable and well planned out.
4) Accuracy: I'd like it to be accurate enough to be competitive, but am more focused on having fun whilst keeping the ability to use as a "battle rifle" or otherwise be a useful gun.
5) Price: I think a lot is within my price range and I am fine saving up. I think ~$1,200 to ~$1,500 is preferable, $2K would probably be pushing it (although I plan on adding optics once I get comfortable w/ the iron sights, that will be in addition to the price range above). If it is cheaper than that, I'll live.

While I admit they are great, that <span style="font-style: italic">probably</span> means the SCAR and ACR are out unless I get a great bargain.
6) Foldability would be a plus for storage and traveling, but probably not the end of the world one way or the other.

I can list what I have been looking at, I just want suggestions on what piston semi-automatic rifles seem to be the top on the list of recommendations that fit the above description. If there is anything else I should include or use to help make my decision, feel free to let me know.

If it makes a difference, here is what I already have available to me in long guns:

22lr Rifle (can't remember the brand, just your basic plinker)
Mossberg 500
AR-15 5.56
30-30 lever gun

Thanks in advance.

-Cheers

 

[frankythefly]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

I drank the piston cool aid and I don't honestly think it is worth the extra coin unless it is in the scar platform. Just because you run a piston system doesn't mean that it wont get dirty when firing suppressed. If you don't shoot suppressed all the time then it will stay a little more cleaner than gas impingement but you add more weight and a different kind of recoil pulse. Depending on what kind of piston system you use you can also fine tune the gas settings to increase or decrease the amount of gas which is nicer than gas impingement(although adjustable gas blocks are aval now). But after using Gas impingement based systems all over the world in the worst conditions under lots of stress and firings I honestly never had any issues.

 

[Captain Moroni]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

I shot my .300 Blackout in a 3 gun yesterday and that will be the last time I ever shoot 3 gun suppressed. Besides being heavier when you ditch the rifle in a box or can the suppressor melts the container.

 

[halowords]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I drank the piston cool aid and I don't honestly think it is worth the extra coin unless it is in the scar platform.</div></div>

Interesting. I've been looking at a few of the offerings and I'm not sure one way or the other. There were a few that I liked. Plus, some are more extra coin than others.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just because you run a piston system doesn't mean that it wont get dirty when firing suppressed. If you don't shoot suppressed all the time then it will stay a little more cleaner than gas impingement but you add more weight and a different kind of recoil pulse. Depending on what kind of piston system you use you can also fine tune the gas settings to increase or decrease the amount of gas which is nicer than gas impingement(although adjustable gas blocks are aval now).</div></div>

Right now I'm thinking of a gas suppressor more for practice, just for hearing's sake (for myself and my kids). I know the piston guns still get dirty, just in different places. I like the idea of the ease of cleaning and maintaining at a high level of cleanliness. I know I don't have to, I just grew up with a dad in the military and my first time cleaning an AR was with an Army Vet and it was a nice afternoon project. Whatever I get, I'll be that dork who keeps his guns as clean as the day they were bought.

Mostly though, I think the front-heavy weight (and potential costs) would be the biggest issues, although to what extent kind of depends.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But after using Gas impingement based systems all over the world in the worst conditions under lots of stress and firings I honestly never had any issues. </div></div>

I can respect that opinion.

-Cheers

 

[halowords]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Moroni</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shot my .300 Blackout in a 3 gun yesterday and that will be the last time I ever shoot 3 gun suppressed. Besides being heavier when you ditch the rifle in a box or can the suppressor melts the container. </div></div>

I was thinking of the can more for practicing than use in 3 Gun, unless I eventually go the suppressed SBR route. Depending on the gun, I know some have multiple gas settings and others you pretty much pick one way and run.

-Cheers

 

[DT1]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

If the primary purpose of the rifle is for competitive 3-gun, go with a standard gas impingement AR-15 with a 18" barrel, good trigger and muzzle brake. Practice with what you plan to shoot in the matches

You won't see many, if any serious 3-gun or miltigun competitors using piston driven rifles or cans.

 

[K_4c]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

LWRC.

I drank the piston koolaid.... and it still taste good.

 

[halowords]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DT1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the primary purpose of the rifle is for competitive 3-gun, go with a standard gas impingement AR-15 with a 18" barrel, good trigger and muzzle brake. Practice with what you plan to shoot in the matches

You won't see many, if any serious 3-gun or miltigun competitors using piston driven rifles or cans. </div></div>

I'm planning this for sort of a utilitarian multi-purpose gun with 3-Gun more of a hobby. I suppose I can use my current AR-15 as a dedicated 3-Gun competition project gun if it comes to that. What I'm interested in is the options for a piston gun that could do it while still having the benefits of being an all-the-time shooter. Maybe I should have left 3-Gun out if it, that's just a sport I'm interested in pursuing.

You still might be right, and it's not like I'm opposed to the AR-15 by any stretch. I am just looking more for a carbine that meets all of my more general purpose needs than strictly a race gun, yet can get me in the door so to speak. Otherwise, I could just designate my current AR to a 3-Gun rifle, and consider the possible piston rifle as more of a "battle gun" and paper killer.

If it makes a difference, here are the options I'm considering, or that at least make sense to me to throw into the pile:

AR-15: Essentially just sticking with what I got and waiting to see if the SCAR drops in price or some other great variant of the same thing pops up.

Piston AR-15: Intriguing, since it lets me have one gun with many options (and probably the best trigger shared amongst them). However, I'm left not knowing if I should go with LWRC, POF, PWS, Hogan, Sig, Colt, etc. Plus, the pistons seem proprietary with no real standardization of parts in sight, and they tend to cost a bit more.

Sig556: I handled one. I like it. I like it a lot. It seems like a modernized AK-47 as envisioned by the Swiss, so I like the premise and it felt nice. However, it is a bit heavier overall, front heavy, and does not necessarily have great aftermarket options. Still, I'm not planning on putting too much on it, and they seem to have the bugs worked out of it.

XCR: Interesting, but I am a bit reluctant to buy from a small company unless it has a great customer service rep. I'm sure they're great, I would just have a few concerns.

ACR: I actually like it. It felt like the Sig556 weight and balance-wise. A bit over what I would like to spend, and I suspect they might drop in price due to the SCAR being a more popular option.

SCAR: I liked it. It was light weight, ergonomic, the SCAR-H will have a barrel conversion, and it flat-out felt right. But it costs too much. Maybe some day, but that day is not now.

Tavor: A pipe dream . . . maybe. It <span style="font-style: italic">sounds</span> like it's getting imported this year or next. I could just use what I've got, see what the Tavor goes for, and maybe just wait a year to see if it has any issues a/o price stabilization. However, it's a rifle of interest.

So far, that's about what I've got.

-Cheers

 

[Rob01]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

You already have an AR so you can just get a piston upper which will save you some money. POF and PWS both make excellent piston uppers.

I use my POF in 3 gun and my team mate Tony, who is currently 8th in the Semi Pro 3 Gun Nation series, runs his POF as well.

 

[chainring]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

LWRC if you can afford it, particularly the SPR upper - it makes a fine 3gun rifle.

Also look at the PWS uppers, which are more affordable, but excellent machines.

 

[65nut]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

I drank the piston cool aid heavily, from adams arms, pof, and lwrc. Honestly I liked the lwrc the least just because of the rail design and piston set up. I had an m6a2. Best thing imo that I ever did was trade for a p.o.f. The rifles handled better, lighter, easier to take apart and came with a MUCH better trigger. the adams arms I had was in 5.45x39. It ran good as well. The pof and adams arms wipe down very nicely.
Now after getting my piston kicks, im back to d.i. Rifles. I will probably go piston again sometime.
And when I do, it will be p.o.f.

 

[halowords]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

Should I consider the Sig 556 as a less expensive, more accurate AK-like gun for this conversation, or would I be better off just using my inexpensive current AR upper and save up for a POF/Hogan/LWRC/PWS/etc. upper or a SCAR down the road?

My LGS sells Hogan AR's (which I'm told are VERY similar to the POF's, I gathered one is splintered off from the other after some disagreement), the SCAR, and the Sig 556. For now, price-wise I could justify the Sig, however I think a Hogan, POF, or LWRC are probably a bit outside my range unless I wait & save up for a while (which I suppose is fine) or find a nice deal on a gently used model, which is always an option. Of those, I can only actually handle the Sig or the Hogan, so the others are somewhat leaps of faith.

-Cheers

 

[chainring]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

The PWS isn't goint to cost much more than the Sig. If you get an upper, all you have to do is find a good price on one in stock somewhere and have it shipped straight to you.

 

[jonthomps]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

My vote goes for an LMT piston in the AR platform. I LOVE mine. Lots of guys love their SCAR's though too.

 

[BigBoss0311]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

LWRC. Customer service is out of this world. They build a hell of a rifle too.

 

[BERTMAN77MK2]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

Why not just get a conversionso you can take it back off if you wish---read and study all the hype---I did and use an Osprey Defense unit and a PWS buffer tube on a Colt

 

[VKC]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

I own LWRC, POF and Adams Arms ARs...and shot several others including SIG556, LMT, etc.

LWRC has been well under sub-MOA for me and utterly reliable. The only problem I've had with my LWRC is the dust cover retaining insert fell out, but they sent my dealer one quickly and I repaired it locally without having to send it out. Their customer service is above and beyond…very excellent. I personally don’t like they piston system as much because it is more difficult to disassemble and reassemble more parts etc, but you probably don’t even need to do that. The bolt assembly and rest of the parts are top notch. The coatings that they use make cleaning a lot easier and improve durability.

POF has been less accurate than my LWRC, I think more related to poorer upper and lower fit. If I “crank down” with my grip and eliminate the wiggle, accuracy improves. I’ve also had some reliability issues with failure to extract. It got better with changing to a heavy buffer and new buffer springs. Their customer service was good but not as good as LWRC. Piston system is relatively easier to disassembly and reassemble than LWRC. Their bolt assembly coatings are excellent, similiar to LWRC in ease of cleaning.

SIG556 is a nice design and was very reliable. Accuracy was okay but not as good as LWRC for me. Felt heavy to me, not quite as well balanced, but that could have been just the "classic" stock as well.

Adams Arms is my favorite piston systems, effective and simple design, and able to adjust bolt to not cycle or throw the spent casing. Accuracy was on par and excellent.

Just my humble opinion from my experience, but others I’m sure will disagree or have different opinions.

 

[VKC]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

I forgot to comment on the LMT...good quality but not as nice as LWRC or Adams Arms. Accuracy was also less than LWRC and Adams Arms. Maybe a little less than POF but pretty close. On par with Sig556.

In summary, get a LWRC if you want an entire rifle system. If you are familiar with ARs and want to build your own, go with Adams Arms.

 

[loki*hunter]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed



Very good advice....only I would consider the lightest 14.5 pinned or 16" gun I could get unless you are shooting over 400 yards regularly at your matches. Danny Horner (the undisputed champion of 3Gun and AMU shooter) shoots a 14.5" unless there are targets beyond 400....


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DT1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the primary purpose of the rifle is for competitive 3-gun, go with a standard gas impingement AR-15 with a 18" barrel, good trigger and muzzle brake. Practice with what you plan to shoot in the matches

You won't see many, if any serious 3-gun or miltigun competitors using piston driven rifles or cans. </div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DT1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the primary purpose of the rifle is for competitive 3-gun, go with a standard gas impingement AR-15 with a 18" barrel, good trigger and muzzle brake. Practice with what you plan to shoot in the matches



You won't see many, if any serious 3-gun or miltigun competitors using piston driven rifles or cans. </div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DT1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the primary purpose of the rifle is for competitive 3-gun, go with a standard gas impingement AR-15 with a 18" barrel, good trigger and muzzle brake. Practice with what you plan to shoot in the matches

You won't see many, if any serious 3-gun or miltigun competitors using piston driven rifles or cans. </div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DT1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the primary purpose of the rifle is for competitive 3-gun, go with a standard gas impingement AR-15 with a 18" barrel, good trigger and muzzle brake. Practice with what you plan to shoot in the matches

You won't see many, if any serious 3-gun or miltigun competitors using piston driven rifles or cans. </div></div>

 

[bassani]

Re: Piston Rifle Options for 3-Gun Possibly Suppressed

Sig also has the AR platform Sig516