That's not really true. With plastic core supports and aluminum crash bars it happens a lot. If it misses the crash bar we're talking 3-4 mph. I've seen minor deer hits do it. It's going to suck when these cars are insured for liability only.
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Plastic parts on your cars engine? Made to fail as soon as the warranty is up.
- Thread starter Maggot
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Nope, probably not - although you might be running slightly ahead of my personal timeline. I did have the advantage of coming into the industry at a time that we were finally flushing the last of the "malaise era" junk and replacing it with stuff that is still on the road and working well, where as the current trajectory feels like a return to the bad ol' days.
Cars are so much safer it's not even comparable. Yes the car grenades in a accident, it's supposed to. The vehicles absorb the impact and most times the people walk away without injury. The big concern now is making sure the body shop you use repairs your car with factory procedures. The vast majority do not and with the newer materials that can be incredibly dangerous.
What are you talking about, everyone needs an awd crossover thing, or the ability to tow 25000lb to soccer practice. Doesn't that describe the average American?
Hatchback shopping has gotten very difficult.
Same here, 2002 Chevy Express 3500 with 275K. Runs like a top, drive train is tight, even the U joints (because I have them greased every oil change) though I'm beginning to replace all the bolt on parts like alternators, waterpumps, etc.
Yup... Bought my Yaris specifically because...
1) Timing chain
2) Dead simple 4 speed automatic. It actually has a drain plug and a filter you can access. Took it in, ONCE, and asked for a drain, fill, and filter change. Was informed "Sir, we don't change the filter unless there is pan damage". Cool. Gimme my car back, I'm leaving. Went to the parts counter and ordered a filter, pan gasket, plug gasket, and a case of Toyota WS ATF and have been doing it myself ever since. Drain and fill every year and drain, fill, and filter every other year. Little bastard is about to hit 400K miles. Looks like hammered dog shit but drives great and still gets 32MPG so...
To address the lifetime fill thing. That seems to be USA bullshit. Take the Subie CVT (I know, I know but hear me out) fluid change interval for example...
Subie USA sez lifetime
Subie Japan says every 30k miles.
Believe the USA spec and enjoy your new solenoid bank ($$$$) or whole new transmission ($$$$$) if they can actually get one. Freakin Caddilac Northstar era was the same. "You" can't drain or fill the trans but when I pulled a front coil bank I found a (GASP!) dipstick and a filler cap. Go figger!
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Depends on the interest rate. I've got 1.9% so I'll keep my cash in my pocket, thanks.
no new car dealerships make their money on the front end. it is always made on service. the initial sale is only to gain a customer that they intend to obligate to continuing use of the service dept. this is why they will often sell a car nearly at cost.
There's no doubt the engines last longer today. People are quite happy to buy used cars with "only" 125k miles on them. 45 years ago you'd be thinking about a valve job and new cam at 65-75K.
Parts availability is on whole 'other level these days. I recall my father talking about selling cars in the 50's to late 60's because they were becoming difficult to get parts for, cars that weren't quite ten years old. A lot of them didn't last because they couldn't.
Parts availability is on whole 'other level these days. I recall my father talking about selling cars in the 50's to late 60's because they were becoming difficult to get parts for, cars that weren't quite ten years old. A lot of them didn't last because they couldn't.
Your still paying more money besides the interest, you don't see. Next time you think about buying a new ride try this. When ask the money question stay with the how much a month line, like most. Once you get the final price they agree to, either hand them the cash or write a check for that final price and wait for their response. They will try and craw fish that deal in a heart beat, because they lowered the POS OTD price and padded the F&I guys numbers.
I didnt learn that in engineering classes, nor have we ever taught that in our engineering classes. Ive never designed anything with the intent on failure.
You know why you can put a lifetime warranty on ANYTHING today? Because in 3-5 years 95% of people want something new.
I got mine through a close friend who is a finance manager for the dealer. Paid well below sticker. The only down is you've go to have comp for the life of the loan. I'm getting 6% or better on the money I saved and put into investment account.
That's why so many offer lifetime powertrain warranties. They charge you for it up front then end up getting you into a new car before they have major issues. It's a brilliant marketing strategy.
There is no such thing as a "lifetime" fluid or the auto makers really mean lifetime of the warranty like was previously stated
Change your fluids if you plan to keep a car. Most people don't so it really doesn't matter.
I had a Honda Odyssey eat a transmission in 48K miles. Honda replaced it under warranty after much argument. I got a chance to talk to the mechanic that replaced it, he was friendly and went on to tell me about Hondas design flaw in the Ody and how the DW1 trans fluid wasn't really up to the extra heat an Ody generates over say an accord. His advice was to put in a synthetic and change it every 15k (but I didn't hear that from him cause he has to say use nothing but Honda fluids)
I switched to a Valvoline synthetic fluid, change it every 15k, and the new transmissions went another 120k without a single problem. I sold the van at that point. I also did a 3x drain and fill with synthetic over the next month I got the van back from Honda, trans was never smoother.
In my Toyotas I do a drain and fill every 30k miles, I don't even bother with synthetic in the camry.
Change your fluids if you plan to keep a car. Most people don't so it really doesn't matter.
I had a Honda Odyssey eat a transmission in 48K miles. Honda replaced it under warranty after much argument. I got a chance to talk to the mechanic that replaced it, he was friendly and went on to tell me about Hondas design flaw in the Ody and how the DW1 trans fluid wasn't really up to the extra heat an Ody generates over say an accord. His advice was to put in a synthetic and change it every 15k (but I didn't hear that from him cause he has to say use nothing but Honda fluids)
I switched to a Valvoline synthetic fluid, change it every 15k, and the new transmissions went another 120k without a single problem. I sold the van at that point. I also did a 3x drain and fill with synthetic over the next month I got the van back from Honda, trans was never smoother.
In my Toyotas I do a drain and fill every 30k miles, I don't even bother with synthetic in the camry.
I had a '21 Silverado LTZ that the stealership bought back from me before I went the lemon law route.
I guess a transverse mounted engine could suffer this. I was thinking a V6 or V8 engine
Nice. I’ve been eyeballin a Yaris as an econo-shitbox daily driver. I need something more fuel efficient than an ArmadaYup... Bought my Yaris specifically because...
1) Timing chain
2) Dead simple 4 speed automatic. It actually has a drain plug and a filter you can access. Took it in, ONCE, and asked for a drain, fill, and filter change. Was informed "Sir, we don't change the filter unless there is pan damage". Cool. Gimme my car back, I'm leaving. Went to the parts counter and ordered a filter, pan gasket, plug gasket, and a case of Toyota WS ATF and have been doing it myself ever since. Drain and fill every year and drain, fill, and filter every other year. Little bastard is about to hit 400K miles. Looks like hammered dog shit but drives great and still gets 32MPG so...
To address the lifetime fill thing. That seems to be USA bullshit. Take the Subie CVT (I know, I know but hear me out) fluid change interval for example...
Subie USA sez lifetime
Subie Japan says every 30k miles.
Believe the USA spec and enjoy your new solenoid bank ($$$$) or whole new transmission ($$$$$) if they can actually get one. Freakin Caddilac Northstar era was the same. "You" can't drain or fill the trans but when I pulled a front coil bank I found a (GASP!) dipstick and a filler cap. Go figger!
I hear you. Still it is what it is. Those vehicle's I mentioned went that milage with no transmission oil changes. Never a hiccup. No slippage no shifting issues. Changing transmission fluid at regular intervals is probably I'm sure a good idea. I'm just saying I never bothered with it.
My first Toyota was a 76 Corona with 100k bought from some sweet old lady. She had changed the trans fluid at I think at 60k, if I'm remembering correctly. I drove that car another 145k and traded it for a compound bow. It shit the bed the next year, carburetor failure. So that's where I started driving and not changing fluid. Like I said I went through 5 vehicle's over a thirty year period 25k miles per year, all jap stuff with not a transmission problem among them. That a averages out to exactly 150 thousand miles per vehicle. Hey just lucky maybe, who knows but it is a fact. Side note. Always changed motor oil at 3k religiously.
If the friction material is in the fluid and not on the plates, it’s already been lost. Keeping the fluid in longer isn’t extending the life.
I am not a lubrication specialist, so this is a very simplistic view of trans fluid
At some point the fluid degrades, we know 100% fluid function isn't required to keep the trans healthy
but what is? 50% 60% 70% ?? how do you know when your fluid crosses that line?
I bought a $20,000 vehicle (usually the 2nd or 3rd most expensive thing most people buy) but I refuse to put $20 worth of fresh fluid in it because reasons
[if you only buy used cheap turd cars then the above comment doesn't apply to you]
This is exactly why you don't want to buy used cars without evidence of maintenance.
Part of the reason your old trans with old fluid doesn't appear to have an issue is because many times the clutch friction material circulating in the fluid fills in the gaps in your worn out clutches as needed. This is why you hear people with 150-200k miles on factory original trans fluid say that changing the fluid 'broke their transmission' um yeah, that is what did it
If you changed the fluid, that friction material would not be in the fluid, but would remain on the clutches
At some point the fluid degrades, we know 100% fluid function isn't required to keep the trans healthy
but what is? 50% 60% 70% ?? how do you know when your fluid crosses that line?
I bought a $20,000 vehicle (usually the 2nd or 3rd most expensive thing most people buy) but I refuse to put $20 worth of fresh fluid in it because reasons
[if you only buy used cheap turd cars then the above comment doesn't apply to you]
This is exactly why you don't want to buy used cars without evidence of maintenance.
Part of the reason your old trans with old fluid doesn't appear to have an issue is because many times the clutch friction material circulating in the fluid fills in the gaps in your worn out clutches as needed. This is why you hear people with 150-200k miles on factory original trans fluid say that changing the fluid 'broke their transmission' um yeah, that is what did it
If you changed the fluid, that friction material would not be in the fluid, but would remain on the clutches
I have a 2005 Chevy 5.3 with 78k. Never been garage kept. I change the fluids and fix anything that needs fixing myself. I use it off road hunting and 90+ on I80. Good tires and an understanding of the use, limitations, care and maintenance makes it an outstanding vehicle. Parts are stupid cheap to buy….
Ask apple….. they recently got caught hobbling features in older iPhones “to preserve the battery”
I despise planned obsolescence.
Appliances are a perfect example. They are designed to be replaced in ~10 years, not repaired. If you do try to repair them, they make it costly and not easy to do.
I had to replace a gas cooktop recently, and got a Wolf. A huge reason for that is because they are designed to be repaired, and last you 20+ years. Their Subzero fridges are supposed to be awesome too. Of course you pay for it.
Unfortunately wall street doesn't reward companies that do build quality products built to last. Instant Pot had to file for Chapter 11 because their product is too reliable.
There are a lot of money made in the front end. Just had a fellow hide member buy a brand new GMC AT4. He sent me a pic of the invoice and they had over 2500 dollars in BS add ons like nitrogen fill tires, locking lug nuts, "paint protection" ect. Then you can add in the BS extended warranty they always try to sell you. You also have the interest rate they try to give you but the part they don't tell you is the buy rate instead of the sell rate. Dealers usually tack on a percent or 2. Then you also have dealer mark up on certain vehicles. Dealerships are run by some of the most dishonest people on the planet. They will sell their moms to make a buck. Most of those people have no chance at getting a job a ethical business. I have worked most of my professional career in in the automotive field and would never go back.
Changing transmission fluid should be at least every 50-60,000 or sooner if the manufacturer recommends it. My 2014 Corolla has been great. It has had the fluid drained and refilled twice in the 91,000 miles that it has on it. Given that it has an earlier model CVT transmission, I want to give it every opportunity to last. CVT's in Hondas have been pretty much bullet proof since the addition of the launch gear around 2016.
Every car and truck produced as far back as a Model T has planned obsolescence. Research Ole Henry Ford , he would send engineers out to purchase and disassemble wrecks . This was to determine if all the parts were equally wearing out together , if not make some better make some less . Kingpins are a prime example on a T Model
Just look into the *DexCool* debacle.
Plastic intakes + thick o-ring gaskets against the metal (aluminum or iron) heads = disaster.
It was never the coolant that was the issue.
It was the fact that GM trying to save every penny would (serious here) shave 3 threads from a bolt to save on that minuscule amount of material.
If they had left the intake aluminum.....if they had used a decent gasket.....if they had left the bolts long enough to actually be able to grip...
I have honestly seen thousands of ruined engines from that shit.
At the GM dealer I worked at in the late 90's to mid 00's we had a stack of dead Northstar engines that would fill a railroad car, another of random 4-6-8 cyl GM shit that would fill another boxcar, all due to GM being to cheap to make a good part.
The guys that came by from a recycling place that picked up random metal to recycle would not even haul the shit off.....it was worthless to them.
Plastic intakes + thick o-ring gaskets against the metal (aluminum or iron) heads = disaster.
It was never the coolant that was the issue.
It was the fact that GM trying to save every penny would (serious here) shave 3 threads from a bolt to save on that minuscule amount of material.
If they had left the intake aluminum.....if they had used a decent gasket.....if they had left the bolts long enough to actually be able to grip...
I have honestly seen thousands of ruined engines from that shit.
At the GM dealer I worked at in the late 90's to mid 00's we had a stack of dead Northstar engines that would fill a railroad car, another of random 4-6-8 cyl GM shit that would fill another boxcar, all due to GM being to cheap to make a good part.
The guys that came by from a recycling place that picked up random metal to recycle would not even haul the shit off.....it was worthless to them.
1. nitrogen fill or blinker fluid ...... anyone who is dumb enough to pay for that deserves to pay for that.
2. ceramic coating is applied with little wipies. again, IDK what people think they are getting when they spend $200 or $300 for a 17 year old detailer to run a wipie over a car, but it costs the dealership between $30 and $50 for the product, depending on brand. And never get data dots. Most of the time they forget to apply the magical, invisible dots.
3. some warranties are worthwhile. Do your homework on what typically goes wrong with that make & model, and then crunch the numbers. However, a $2,900 warranty typically costs the dealership $800 bucks. and the price is negotiable.
4. marking up the financed balance by the max 2% is not a huge amount of money. depending on how much is being borrowed, typically it's in the hundreds, not thousands.
yes, most dealerships are unethical if not downright deceitful. I only know of one or two who I would believe if they said it was snowing outside.
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I’ll take this a step further. Anyone getting any detailing done by a dealership is not very seriously concerned about their vehicle. Dealership details are fucking awful, never mind a ceramic coating(which can be amazing if done properly). If your new vehicle is one that you plan to keep for a long time do yourself a favor and drive it straight to a good detail shop for wash, correction, & at least a good synthetic sealant. A ceramic coating will be better and last much longer though. Follow this up with some sort of wash and paint maintenance schedule and you’ll have a basically new vehicle until you get rid of it
Little wipes? That's news to me, I used to Ceramic coat high end luxury and exotic cars. Never used a wipie, used the correct applicator and in the end had to use heat lamps to bake the ceramic on.
What are these data dots? Never heard of those.
Went with my son when he bought his Sierra (six months old/8k miles). Sat down with the sales guy and he quotes a price 10k higher than advertised. Son asked WTF. Sales guy says that’s money we spent getting it ready to sell. I told my kid if they spent that much on a new truck, he didn’t want it and needed to look elsewhere. Sales guy starts spouting BS about what they did. ”Sanitized the interior.” I laughed and told him he paid the detail guy$12 per hour to detail the vehicle.
In the end he bought the truck for slightly less than asking. They were willing to “eat” the 10k. I did not get a Christmas card from the sales guy.
When the dealer starts to tell me lies like that, I walk. I will not reward a dishonest dealership/salesman no matter how good the deal they can come up with later, just out of principal.
If anyone in the industry has attempted to do this since the days of Henry Ford, they've failed miserably. We know this because there's a robust market in used auto parts, and the typical vehicle gets retired around 250-300k not because everything fails simultaneously but rather it either has slowly rusted away or someone simply gets sick of replacing some random part for the 4th time.
There are often poor decisions getting made (especially in the name of reducing component cost or assembly labor), but that's not even close to the same thing as "planned obsolescence".
People who are replacing the same part over & over, might be just correcting the effect, instead of the root issue. That is fairly common these days. I've seen it over & over in the Respi EPG world. Makes no difference if its the prime mover, alternator or switch gear. Instead of testing or fully understanding the system/item they are working on, they just replace XYZ thinking its all good now. Weeks or months later the same part fails again, and they condemn that MFG or re-builder when in fact the failed part is just the weak link do to something else wrong in that chain.
While I was going to automotive school in the mid 90's I worked at a wrecking yard. We focused on Japanese import and small trucks only. We had a handful of Chevy small Blazers, S-10's, Rangers, etc. The Ford and GM proving grounds were not too far away from Phoenix and they used to send engineers out to the wrecking yards to buy oddball parts to check them for function.
More than once I would walk out with the engineer and pull the part he needed. We would record mileage, VIN and only pull parts from the vehicles that were not wrecked in the vicinity of the parts. I spoke to all of them and they said they were doing testing to see how long it lasted in real world use and sitting in the heat. That way they could design the part to last longer or for less time depending on what it was. This was to ensure spare parts sales into the future of the vehicle. I said that is kinda fucked. He laughed and said it was business. I was a dumb 17-18 year old kid at that time.
I had directly witnessed and spoke to those engineers and will never forget those conversations. More than once we opened the parts on the spot to look at the internals to make sure they were working or not working. They took both function and non function depending on the part. It was always weird shit nobody would think about failing like a blend door actuator, wiper motor, dimmer switch etc. There were several more I just don't feel like listing all of them. It taught me a lesson before I went on to be a Toyota tech.
More than once I would walk out with the engineer and pull the part he needed. We would record mileage, VIN and only pull parts from the vehicles that were not wrecked in the vicinity of the parts. I spoke to all of them and they said they were doing testing to see how long it lasted in real world use and sitting in the heat. That way they could design the part to last longer or for less time depending on what it was. This was to ensure spare parts sales into the future of the vehicle. I said that is kinda fucked. He laughed and said it was business. I was a dumb 17-18 year old kid at that time.
I had directly witnessed and spoke to those engineers and will never forget those conversations. More than once we opened the parts on the spot to look at the internals to make sure they were working or not working. They took both function and non function depending on the part. It was always weird shit nobody would think about failing like a blend door actuator, wiper motor, dimmer switch etc. There were several more I just don't feel like listing all of them. It taught me a lesson before I went on to be a Toyota tech.
No doubt. If a diesel can’t go 120k without a major issue it’d be a rare fluke I’d think.
I own a 32 Ford , that has not had one patch panel or any sheet metal replaced in near 100 years , do you think anything produced today will live up to this standard ? If you think so , I would look in the mirror and see if you can answer truthfully that question to that person .
Let's drive that '32 through a few Midwest winters and see how it does.
I have a Power Wagon , Cummins powered , that spent its whole life in the Midwest , still going strong . I dare say plastic was not in the finished product . You do not have to remove the cab , to do engine repairs . Nothing is as we remember , it’s now a throw away world . The old dude shakes rattles , belches smoke , doesn’t have a 13 screen on the dash , a back up camera , and 3 petals to make it go . Some times simple is best , same as my old Harleys not much plastic , no radio , no heated seat , and a pop sickle shaped petal made to make them rumble to life .
JK Rubicon with 45k had to have a small part replaced because a plastic gear broke a couple teeth. It operates the hot/cold door for the vent. After some research, it’s a common issue and there’s actually a aftermarket replacement part with a metal gear. The part is buried deep in the dash with a multitude of steps to replace. Labor is the majority of the repair. Almost $500.
Point being, FCA could, seemingly easily, just use metal gears in the part and avoid the expensive repair.
Are they capitalizing on the common repair or is there another reason not to improve the reliability??
Point being, FCA could, seemingly easily, just use metal gears in the part and avoid the expensive repair.
Are they capitalizing on the common repair or is there another reason not to improve the reliability??
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