POF, BCM, or Daniel Defense?

[Qazwsx]

I’ve had all the rifles mentioned except pof. All are good guns. No reason to shit on any of them.

sr-16 - mine won’t cycle steel case wolf. That’s fine for me but may be an issue for your shooting. I throw some wolf in the mags for malfunction drills. At the top end of your budget. Smoothest shooter but needs full power ammo.

bcm4 from 2012- great gun, at least 10k through. Eats everything.

Dd mk18- same, shoots everything.

geissele super duty- looks great, smooth shooter. Pretty new to me.

Don’t sleep on the LMT cqb mlk rifle. For 1700 with the switch barrel and monolithic rail plus full ambi it’s a great option. If I was gonna buy another gun that would be it.

It comes down to lower controls, trigger, switch barrel or not, barrel profile and hand guard style imo.

 

[army_eod]

Yea well at least you didn't have to spend years at APG/Edgewood (unless you were stationed there). Alabama and Florida are so much nicer

I was at APG and Edgewood from 2003 until 2017 in some flavor of active duty or contractor. Then I moved to AL and work at Redstone.

 

[Rant Durden]

Adcor did a rifle to compete in a military contract. There are several reviews online and it really seems like it would make a great duty weapon.

ADCOR ELITE™ Gas Piston - Rifle Length 5.56mm/.223 -

In Stock, Usually ships in 1 to 3 weeks depending on selected options

www.adcordefense.com

Preview - Adcor Defense A-556 Elite

Read: Preview - Adcor Defense A-556 Elite from Peter Palma on July 30, 2010 for Recoil.

www.recoilweb.com

 

[J.Kubiak]

I have a DD. It’s cool

 

[AngryKoala]

I’ve had all the rifles mentioned except pof. All are good guns. No reason to shit on any of them.

sr-16 - mine won’t cycle steel case wolf. That’s fine for me but may be an issue for your shooting. I throw some wolf in the mags for malfunction drills. At the top end of your budget. Smoothest shooter but needs full power ammo.

bcm4 from 2012- great gun, at least 10k through. Eats everything.

Dd mk18- same, shoots everything.

geissele super duty- looks great, smooth shooter. Pretty new to me.

Don’t sleep on the LMT cqb mlk rifle. For 1700 with the switch barrel and monolithic rail plus full ambi it’s a great option. If I was gonna buy another gun that would be it.

It comes down to lower controls, trigger, switch barrel or not, barrel profile and hand guard style imo.

My buddy just bought a Geissle and he seems to enjoy it. It looks and feels solid (have only held one) but I have a hard time justifying spending 2k for it. He works at the gun store so he can buy it at cost which at that point is a great deal.

My preference is DD because its not proprietary and I just love their stuff. The only issue with DD is its not as ready to go as some rifles straight out of the box. It will get a trigger and a lot of people change the furniture but I actually like their furniture.

 

[SuperSneakySniper]

Owned DD and BCM. I've stripped some of them down to bare components and rebuilt them back to factory. Guys, they're pretty much the same. The aesthetic of DD guns are cooler I guess... And their barrels are known to be more accurate (not compared to a true custom, or Criterion, or WOA, but better than most factory rifles). And for that, you pay another couple hundred bucks or so.
There's only so many ways you can assemble a lower, make feed ramps, torque a barrel nut, stake some gas keys etc... DD's receiver threads aren't "more true", BCM's feed ramps aren't "more lined up". They're the same in all functional regards. There's no special sauce, no magic methods, no rare materials.

QC is top notch from both. They both assemble ARs the same way (I think BCM barrel nuts and gas blocks are harder to remove though...) They both use top notch components. They both have good CS. They both have an excellent track record.

It just comes down to: Do you want a slightly better barrel and cool DD markings/furniture? Or do you wanna save a couple hundred bucks and deal with an okay barrel and common-looking furniture? No wrong answer. Just pick one and shoot away!

If you told me to choose one and only one, I'd choose BCM, simply because they're less expensive, and I bet you won't be able to tell any difference between them by any practical metric.

 

[Jsp556]

Marty Daniel designs, manufactures, assembles, and sells rifles and components.

Paul Buffoni is at the mercy of his suppliers and manufacturers.

If you have a problem with a DD rifle, people at DD answer the phone and treat you like you just spent $1500-2500 and will go above and beyond to help you, be it a simple diy fix or they’ll offer to have a look at it. Have a problem with anything BCM and good luck. You’ll be treated with disdain as BCM does no wrong, it’s “in spec” or you’re the problem.

A 1 1/2 moa duty grade rifle is worth $200 more than a 2 1/2-4 moa rifle.

 

[slothlacrosse]

Daniel Defense actually provides their barrels for the improved upper receiver group in use by our military and make The RIS II also used by the military. BCM doesn't make jack shit for the military nor do they even offer a mil discount. Daniel Defense > BCM every day if the week and twice on Sunday.

Skillcraft makes a ton of shit for the military. Does that mean any of it is worth a shit?

 

[scharfschutze762]

Adcor did a rifle to compete in a military contract. There are several reviews online and it really seems like it would make a great duty weapon.

ADCOR ELITE™ Gas Piston - Rifle Length 5.56mm/.223 -

In Stock, Usually ships in 1 to 3 weeks depending on selected options

www.adcordefense.com

Preview - Adcor Defense A-556 Elite

Read: Preview - Adcor Defense A-556 Elite from Peter Palma on July 30, 2010 for Recoil.

www.recoilweb.com

I have an 10.5 Adcor upper for sale if anyones interested.

 

[scharfschutze762]

Skillcraft makes a ton of shit for the military. Does that mean any of it is worth a shit?

Yes they make the best hydration bladder....

 

[Constructor]

I've had 2 DDs, I would go with a BCM.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Marty Daniel designs, manufactures, assembles, and sells rifles and components.

Paul Buffoni is at the mercy of his suppliers and manufacturers.

If you have a problem with a DD rifle, people at DD answer the phone and treat you like you just spent $1500-2500 and will go above and beyond to help you, be it a simple diy fix or they’ll offer to have a look at it. Have a problem with anything BCM and good luck. You’ll be treated with disdain as BCM does no wrong, it’s “in spec” or you’re the problem.

A 1 1/2 moa duty grade rifle is worth $200 more than a 2 1/2-4 moa rifle.

Another dumb shit statement from people who dont understand the question.

Its matters little if something is made in house or by an outside vendor. All that matters is the consistent quality of the end product.

You are so full of shit its not even funny. I see you take the democrat strategy of making an arguement......make up a bunch of lies and bs and pretend no one calls you on it.

Look at all those complaints about BCM all over the internet....oh wait

A gun that runs everytime anytime in every condition is worth more than $200 poverty special...or overpriced boutique gun that is nothing bust aestetics and shitty ones at that.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Skillcraft makes a ton of shit for the military. Does that mean any of it is worth a shit?

Skillcraft pens have come a long way over the years..

Skillcraft shit paper however.....my ass is still red from the dump at work on friday.

 

[GUNNER10]

So I’m thinking of upgrading to a new AR. I have a Frankenstein build that I created about 7 years ago. It has served me well, but I have since been shooting much much more and would like to get something that can hold up to duty use. Price point is roughly $2,000.

I think that both BCM and DD would serve you well. I would look at which company offered you a rifle that is closer to the configuration that you want. I think BCM offers more variants, but I think that you may be able to find a DD sooner that a popular BCM upper

 

[GUNNER10]

I was at APG and Edgewood from 2003 until 2017 in some flavor of active duty or contractor. Then I moved to AL and work at Redstone.

Me too, 2007-2017, Small world, ATC or Tech Escort?

 

[army_eod]

Me too, 2007-2017, Small world, ATC or Tech Escort?

2007-09 20th CBRNE. Then other stuff, like Chem Ops at CMA in 03, Acquisition active duty and contractor since 2011.

 

[GUNNER10]

2007-09 20th CBRNE. Then other stuff, like Chem Ops at CMA in 03, Acquisition active duty and contractor since 2011.

Cool. Good stuff.

 

[Jsp556]

Another dumb shit statement from people who dont understand the question.

Its matters little if something is made in house or by an outside vendor. All that matters is the consistent quality of the end product.

You are so full of shit its not even funny. I see you take the democrat strategy of making an arguement......make up a bunch of lies and bs and pretend no one calls you on it.

Look at all those complaints about BCM all over the internet....oh wait

A gun that runs everytime anytime in every condition is worth more than $200 poverty special...or overpriced boutique gun that is nothing bust aestetics and shitty ones at that.

I’m speaking from experience with both mfgs. Obviously my experience differs from yours. I see you subscribe to the Democrat attack strategy as well, you know, completely dismiss facts and yell louder than everyone else.

No one said BCM guns don’t function. You don’t see a lot of BCM nor DD complaints. When you do see BCM complaints, most of the time the BCM sponsored forum covers their paying sponsor. You do see lesser precision from BCM barrels,speaking of product consistency. BCM lowers had problems dropping pmags freely. You do see a lot of paid BCM shills. Most DD complaints are about over gassed barrels and it costing $200 more than BCM.

 

[Constructor]

I’m speaking from experience with both mfgs. Obviously my experience differs from yours. I see you subscribe to the Democrat attack strategy as well, you know, completely dismiss facts and yell louder than everyone else.

No one said BCM guns don’t function. You don’t see a lot of BCM nor DD complaints. When you do see BCM complaints, most of the time the BCM sponsored forum covers their paying sponsor. You do see lesser precision from BCM barrels,speaking of product consistency. BCM lowers had problems dropping pmags freely. You do see a lot of paid BCM shills. Most DD complaints are about over gassed barrels and it costing $200 more than BCM.

My complaint was actually poor accuracy from bad crowns.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Complaining about a 1/4 moa accuracy different in combat carbines is rich. Especially when most of the ammo you are shooting is barely 1 MOA if that.

Like complaining about the interior color of a indy car.

 

[RyanScott]

In fairness more accuracy is better until you have to trade something you won’t want to give for it.

 

[Constructor]

Complaining about a 1/4 moa accuracy different in combat carbines is rich. Especially when most of the ammo you are shooting is barely 1 MOA if that.

Like complaining about the interior color of a indy car.

What makes you assume I was talking about 1/4"?
IMI77gr 5 at 100yds add 3" to that to get what the DD was shooting. BTW that group below is out of a 12.5" barrel.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

I was replying to JSP complaining about accuracy from BCM.

Using run of the mill ammo all of the top manufactures are more than accurate enough. Its splitting hairs and no one is trying to win a bench rest competition.

 

[Naaman]

I'm a little late to the party, but will offer this:

At work, I use a 14.5 lightweight DD. At home I have a 14.5 ELW BCM. I also own a gov't profile DD.

The work gun (DD) has one distinct advantage over the home gun (BCM): the barrel temperature. The BCM heats up very quickly, and even with gloves on (which make it manageable) it's still not desirable to handle. The DD, on the other hand, can be used seemingly indefinitely without a problem.

My comparison between the two:

Accuracy: both are fine for my purposes (I do not believe I can out shoot either gun).
Handling: ... whatever.
Trigger: stock vs. stock, the BCM trigger is noticeably better (at least, the 2 examples I own are). I like it enough not to bother swapping it for a Geissele or similar. My personal DD has an SSA, so take that for what its worth.
Furniture: The DD furniture is not very "duty friendly." If the gun will be physically carried around all day, the rubberized grippy stuff will start to peel off and become quite ugly. We've swapped out the grips and stocks for BCM stocks at work. Other than that, I prefer the DD furniture when actually operating the gun (grips better, IMO).
Customer Service: I much prefer DD's customer service. At BCM, it feels like they think they're talking to monkeys. That said, I have never had to actually use either company's customer service for a problem with either my personal BCM or my personal DD (only to ask questions for build-planning).
Value: This is harder for me to quantify. BCM has a serious market advantage over DD because they sell uppers and lowers separately, for those who either need to spread the cost out or want to mix and match according to personal needs (also cuts down on the excise tax). Even though that's true, I still find myself gravitating toward DD for uppers or complete rifles when "window shopping" or build-planning online. Being as objective as possible, I'd say BCM is the better value, dollar for dollar. However, if factoring in intangibles (and some tangibles, like customer service), I would certainly buy a DD first, assuming they offered what I needed, even if I have to pay ~10% more for it and swap out the trigger. Go figure...

After all that, given the financial wherewithal to buy a KAC, I'd buy a KAC (but I really do like both my BCM and my DD).

 

[J.Kubiak]

Yea DD stock trigger has to go ASAP.

 

[Molon]

Now for something completely different; actual data on the subject matter.



Bravo Company 14.5” ELW Accuracy: A Quick Look


ELW stands for enhanced light-weight. This barrel is from Bravo Company’s cold-hammer forged series of barrels. The barrel has a “continuous taper” design with a smooth shoulder at the gas block journal, which reportedly improves barrel harmonics. This barrel has a mid-length gas system and a 0.625” gas block journal.

According to Bravo Company, this barrel has a stripped weight of 1 pound, 5 ounces. For comparison, a Colt 14.5” M4 barrel has a stripped weight of 1 pound, 9 ounces.

BCM 14.5” ELW

Colt 14.5” M4 barrel. (not stripped)

I purchased this barrel as part of a BCM factory assembled upper receiver group with the MCMR 13” free-float hand guard. The barrel has BCM’s pinned and welded A2X flash hider.

Shooting off-the-bench at a distance of 100 yards (using a high magnification scope), this barrel produced a 10-shot group that has an extreme spread of 0.946” with a mean radius of 0.33”.

….



Noveske 16” N4 Barrel Accuracy Evaluation

I’ve posted short reviews of Noveske N4 Light barrels in the past, so for this article we’re going to take a more in-depth look at the Noveske 16” N4 Light barrel. For starters, Noveske’s nomenclature of “Light” for this barrel is somewhat misleading/confusing. When most shooters hear the term “light- weight” in regard to AR-15 barrels, they think of the “pencil” barrel profile of the original Colt M16/M16A1 and also the same light-weight profile of the Colt 16” carbine barrel found on the Colt 6520 and 6720. However, this is not the profile of the Noveske N4 Light barrel.




Colt M16/M16A1 barrel . . .

Colt 6520 16” light-weight barrel . . .

The stripped-weight (no flash hider, no front sight base/gas block, just the barrel and barrel extension) of the Colt 16” light-weight barrel is 1 pound, 6 ounces. The stripped-weight of the Noveske 16” N4 Light barrel is 1 pound, 12 ounces; which is the same stripped-weight of the Colt 16” government profile barrel found on the ubiquitous Colt 6920.


Colt 6920 government profile barrel . . .

Noveske 16” N4 Light barrel . . .

As you can see in the pics above, for the N4 Light barrel, Noveske has done away with the next-to-useless M203 (grenade launcher) cut-out found on the Colt government profile barrel. The N4 profile also has a more evenly distributed barrel diameter (and thus weight) fore and aft of the gas block journal, which moves the center of gravity of the barrel farther aft compared to a government profile barrel. This all makes for a superbly handling 16” barrel.

The reason that Noveske uses the “Light” nomenclature for their N4 barrels is simply because the N4 barrels are lighter than Noveske’s original medium contour stainless steel barrels. For comparison, the Noveske 16” medium contour Recon barrel has a stripped-weight of 2 pounds, 2 ounces and as mentioned above, the 16” N4 Light barrel has a stripped-weight of 1 pound, 12 ounces.


The Noveske 16” Recon barrel . . .

The Noveske 16” N4 Light barrel is a cold hammer forged barrel. It has a mid-length gas system, “M4” feed-ramps and a chrome-lined chamber and bore. The barrel has a 5.56mm NATO chamber and a 1:7” twist and has been high-pressure/magnetic particle tested; as the barrel stamp indicates. Contrary to erroneous Internet reports, the N4 barrel does not have polygonal rifling.


The barrel stamp . . .

The mid-length gas system . . .

For this evaluation, I used one of my standard match-grade hand-loads topped with Sierra 55 grain BlitzKings. When fired from my Krieger barreled AR-15s, this load has produced ½ MOA 10-shot groups at 100 yards.

Three, 10-shot groups were fired in a row from the Noveske 16” N4 Light barrel from a distance of 100 yards with the resulting extreme spreads:

1.29”
1.18”
1.31”

for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 1.26”. The three, 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius of the 30-shot composite group was 0.37”.

After firing the above three groups, I fired an additional five, 10-shot groups in a row for a total of eight, 10-shot groups fired in a row. The average extreme spread for all eight of the 10-shot groups was 1.24”. I over-layed all eight of the 10-shot groups on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form an 80-shot composite group. The mean radius for the 80-shot composite group was 0.39”.





Noveske 14.5" N4 Barrel Accuracy Evaluation

The 14.5” N4 barrel was tested in the same manner as described above. Three 10-shot groups fired from 100 yards using match grade hand-loads had extreme spreads of:

1.029”
1.360”
1.275”

for a 10-shot group average of 1.22”. As above, I over-layed the three 10-shot groups on each other using RSI Shooting lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for that composite group was 0.37”.



...

 

[Molon]

,,,,,,,,

 

[Molon]

Hodge Defense 14.5” Barrel Accuracy: A Quick Look

For decades after the AR-15 was first introduced to the “civilian” market, shooters basically had three choices for barrel contours/profiles in factory-built AR-15s: government profile, HBAR (heavy barrel) and the original “pencil” profile. (Not even John Wick slayed as many bad guys “with a pencil” as our soldiers did with the pencil profile Colt AR-15 barrel).



government profile

HBAR

John Wick profile

In the early 2000s, innovators such as John Noveske began offering alternative contours/profiles for their AR-15 barrels. These new contours were designed to offer improved weight distribution, with the attendant benefits, compared to the previously mentioned three profiles. For example, the Noveske medium-contour stainless-steel barrels offer reduced weight compared to an HBAR profile, while maintaining much of the accuracy of the HBAR profile.



Noveske 16” medium contour

Noveske’s N4 “light” contour barrels maintain the same weight as a government profile barrel of equal length, but with an improved contour. As an example, the 16” Noveske N4 light barrel has a stripped weight of 1 pound 12 ounces, the same weight as a stripped 16” Colt government profile barrel (6920).



Noveske 16” N4 light profile

Colt 16” government profile

In keeping with the approach to barrel contours of maintaining the same weight as a government profile barrel, while improving the weight distribution and in conjunction with additional improvements, Hodge Defense developed their own vision of such barrels and is now offering these barrels for sale to the general public. The stripped weight of the 14.5” Hodge Defense barrel is 1 pound, 8.5 ounces. For comparison, the stripped weight of a standard Colt 14.5” M4 barrel is 1 pound, 9 ounces.


14.5” Hodge defense

Colt M4 barrel (not stripped)

The 14.5” Hodge Defense barrel is manufactured by Fabrique Nationale, to secret-squirrel specifications, for Hodge Defense. This barrel is cold-hammer-forged and has a 1:7” twist. The barrel employs a mid-length gas system and has a 0.75“ gas block journal. The gas port on my barrel gauged at 0.075”.

This barrel does not come with the gas block journal pre-dimpled, so if you plan to use a free-float hand-guard that covers a low profile gas block, you’ll want to dimple the barrel yourself (or have a competent gunsmith do it for you.) I used the SLR Rifleworks dimpling jig for this task.

A rather unique aspect of this barrel is found in the chamber. Located in the neck section of the chamber, is a ring of six triangular shaped “flutes“. The base of the triangle faces towards the breech end of the barrel.

I assembled the Hodge Defense barrel in a Bravo Company upper receiver and BCM MCMR 13” free-float hand-guard. I rounded-out this build with a JP Enterprises bolt, a Young Manufacturing bolt carrier and a BCM charging handle.

Shooting off of sandbags at a distance of 100 yards using match-grade hand-loads and a high-magnification scope, the Hodge Defense barrel produced a 10-shot group that had an extreme spread of 1.24”.

…..

 

[Molon]

Colt M4A1 SOCOM Barrel Accuracy: Another Look

In 2010, I posted one of the first publicly available, in-depth accuracy evaluations of a Colt M4A1 SOCOM barrel. At that time, the Colt SOCOM barrel was relatively new to the civilian market. Many people, including myself, were pleasantly surprised by the level of accuracy/precision that I obtained with the SOCOM barrel; particularly since it is a chrome-lined, NATO chambered “military-grade” barrel. Since that time, the Colt M4A1 SOCOM barrel has developed a significant appreciation amongst AR-15 enthusiasts.


The M4A1 SOCOM barrel

Recently, I assembled another upper receiver group based on the Colt M4A1 SOCOM barrel. This new build features a Colt cage-code marked M4 upper receiver, a Colt “C” marked bolt carrier group and a 13” Geissele MK14 M-LOK free-float hand-guard.

A genuine Colt M4A1 SOCOM barrel is 14.5” long and has a medium contour; it is not an HBAR. The barrel has a 5.56mm NATO chamber and a 1:7” twist.

Colt SOCOM barrel

Colt HBAR

A genuine SOCOM barrel has the typical M4 circumferential cut-out located approximately 1.4” forward of the gas block for the attachment of an M203, as well as rectangular shaped cut-outs underneath the hand-guards on the port and starboard sides of the barrel, located approximately 1.4” aft of the gas block, for the same reason. The gas port on a genuine SOCOM barrel has a diameter of 0.062” and the barrel employs a carbine-length gas system.


The SOCOM barrel has a stripped weight of 1 pound, 14 ounces. That is only 2 ounces heavier than the ubiquitous 16” government profile barrel found on the Colt 6920.

Colt SOCOM barrel

Colt 6920 barrel

The stripped weight of the SOCOM barrel is 5 ounces heavier than the stripped weight of the standard Colt 14.5” M4 barrel. The pic below shows the difference between the standard M4 barrel and the SOCOM barrel. From the gas block journal forward, the two barrels are identical


SOCOM barrel on top, standard barrel on bottom

The next pic is a close-up comparing the two barrels in the area between the chamber and the gas block journal, showing you were the extra weight is added.

The date-code on my original SOCOM barrel was “11/03” and the date-code on my newer SOCOM barrel is “02/18”

My original SOCOM barrel hand an “F-marked” front sight base. Colt no longer stamps an “F” on their front sight bases, but their newer front sight bases maintain the length of 1.98” from the top of the barrel to the shelf for the front sight post.

My original SOCOM barrel was stamped:

“C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7”

The newer SOCOM barrel is stamped with Colt’s cage code.

“13629 M P 5.56 NATO 1/7”

Both of these SOCOM barrels have the “O” stamp near the chamber portion of the barrel, indicating the barrel has a chrome-lined chamber and bore. Naturally, the M4A1 SOCOM barrel has M4 feed ramps.

Accuracy Is Final


In 2010, my original SOCOM barrel with the “11/03” date-code produced a 10-shot group fired from a distance of 100 yards that had an extreme spread of 0.90”. That group was fired from my bench-rest set-up using match-grade hand-loads and a high magnification scope.

My newer SOCOM barrel with the “02/18” date-code produced a 10-shot group fired from a distance of 100 yards that had an extreme spread of 0.93”. This group was fired off of sand-bags using match-grade hand-loads and a high magnification scope.

. . . .