I am asking this poll question because I see guys all the time ask why their ballistic calculator is off by a tenth or two of a mil at xxx distance. It seems like if they can't get first round hits within .10 mil at 1000yds they are chasing their tails trying to get the ballistic calculator to match exactly what their real DOPE was. I don't shoot one time and go home I am fine with it getting me "close enough" to where after a shot or two I can adjust according. I find it pretty amazing that they can get me as close as they do. Do people have unrealistic expectations of what a ballistic calculator should do?
Poll at what distance can you honestly make a first round shot and be within a tenth of a mil?
- Thread starter Steel+Killer
- Start date
what are we shooting off of?
prone?
barricade?
tank trap?
off hand?
and yes IMHO i think most ppl have unrealistic expectations of what a ballistic calculator should do.
prone?
barricade?
tank trap?
off hand?
and yes IMHO i think most ppl have unrealistic expectations of what a ballistic calculator should do.
All day, every day, as long as I do my part........
Come on guys really? Wouldn't you assume I am talking the best possible way you can for testing of your BC? Do I really have to add every little scenero to answer the question? How about while facing north, eating rainbow flavored ice cream with unicorn dust sprinkled on top.......LOL
If they are chasing their tales, they don’t know how to true the software.
Or they are imparting some sort of error on the rifle, causing the dope to do something that isn’t possible with the firing solution (I.E. the software can’t calculate bad recoil management causing round to go high).
I get my data to line up to .1 without issue.
crazy things happen in this conditions!
If you can hold a tenth of a mil at 100 yards you are still holding tenth of a mil at ten thousand yards.
Whether or not you have judged conditions and allowed for any of the possible factors/physics of the rotation of the earth/engineering of a rotating projectile impart is a different story.
The question is over how much distance is your ability to read conditions capable of holding a tenth mil.
From 100-300 yards I'm guessing its all shooter and whatever the capabilities of the shooter/ammo/rifle are capable of.
Beyond that ability to conjure conditions comes into play.
Whether or not you have judged conditions and allowed for any of the possible factors/physics of the rotation of the earth/engineering of a rotating projectile impart is a different story.
The question is over how much distance is your ability to read conditions capable of holding a tenth mil.
From 100-300 yards I'm guessing its all shooter and whatever the capabilities of the shooter/ammo/rifle are capable of.
Beyond that ability to conjure conditions comes into play.
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This is a group I shot fireforming for my prs match gun last weekend in the wind and cold. I did not answer the poll because I cannot hold every shot within .1. I can however get an accurate average.
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im not sure how to gauge what i can hold but ive shot some groups at 650-850 and 1082 that you just dont talk about because ppl call bullshit and i get that...in a light steady wind i can head shot a steel(actual size)coyote at 850yds with 2nd round and once on its pretty easy so id say i can hold a 10th or 2 at 850yds out to about 1200yds prone with a rear bag and 2-3ths prone off a creedmoor sport glove.
Ok guys I will reword the question...........
Poll at what distance can you honestly make a first round shot and be within a tenth of a mil best conditions possible?
Can I get an answer to this question the one you guys knew I was really asking........LOL
Poll at what distance can you honestly make a first round shot and be within a tenth of a mil best conditions possible?
Can I get an answer to this question the one you guys knew I was really asking........LOL
perfect conditions or very close to perfect....i cant tell you how many times ive center punched a 10" round at 914yds and with in .1 at 1082...i cold bored my 1082 target once and it looked so centered i went up a measured it...the impact was 1" right and 1/2" high of center...we can go on and on about cold bore hits...ive done more than i can remember at 1000yds...or how about this lucky shot....24" plate 1845yds 300WM hung over.
This is not entirely true. Even in consistent conditions, most shooter’s groups open up considerably at distance.
Frank mentions this a lot.
This isn’t a hard thing to do.
If your dope is true and you have good fundamentals and a .3 moa rifle, most decent shooters will be able to do this consistently.
A better question would probably be:
How close is “good enough” for you when truing your software?
Within .1
Within .2
Within .3
How close is “good enough” for you when truing your software?
Within .1
Within .2
Within .3
Ok I will reword again.......
Poll at what distance can you consistently make first round shots and be within a tenth of a mil best conditions possible?
I know am probably going to have to define consistently, but here goes.....you guys are going to make me open up the whisky bottle early today.....LOL
Poll at what distance can you consistently make first round shots and be within a tenth of a mil best conditions possible?
I know am probably going to have to define consistently, but here goes.....you guys are going to make me open up the whisky bottle early today.....LOL
Well...is that really hard to believe if that is the condition we normally shoot a match on day 2?
ill get dressed and be on my way...wait a minute...what kinda whiskey?
Well...is that really hard to believe if that is the condition we normally shoot a match on day 2?
it was for me....it was 19degs snow on the ground and i was pretty hung over...i shot 6-7 more rounds and went home...i think i threw up some where along the way LOL.
1,000.
If you have a capable rifle, in stable conditions, being within .1 area isn’t that hard.
They make truing bars around 5”
If you’re getting center on the bar, you’re pretty damn close to .1
You seem to have an opinion you want validated. That you don’t need to get your software within .1.
You won’t find many people who agree with you.
You won’t find many people who agree with you.
Is it the "yips"?
If you are doing something fundamentally wrong it will be there at 100 yards but will really show at distance.
Is Frank speaking of a psychological component where a shooter looking at a "huge" steel torso at 100 is shooting one way and in one comfort zone but when they have to shoot at the same size steel plate 1000 yards away (still a bigger than MOA target) their mind imparts a different sequence of events in how they shoot the rifle.
I can see that happening. That shooter is likely me.
If the shooter has solid fundamentals though and does at 1000 what they do at 100 the ability to hold should be constant but the conditions and impact over time and space become the variable.
@Palmetto-Pride I understood what you were initially getting at but its a tough question to answer until you add some qualifiers - hydration even has a place.
I guess I'm that guy at first aid class that asks "Well what if he is bleeding, than a telephone pole falls on the car and he gets a broken leg but you have hot wires a nd you see his type I diabetic tag and you know he ate an ice cream sundae but hasn't taken his insulin.....what should you do next?"
I’m guessing nobody will be able to give anything but an estimate, but I would estimate for most it’s probably 300-400 yards. The definition of consistent does matter here though.
It took me a while to learn how to true up my apps, realize the BC on the box doesn’t mean diddly squat, and to make ammo that’s capable.
last time I went to the range I was at 900 yards and after thinking very hard about the wind and spending a lot of time making sure the inputs in strelok were as accurate as possible I managed a bullseye. that means 2moa. I was very happy with that for a cold bore shot. so I was probably an moa away from the middle of the v bull. not sure what that is in mils.
I'm not sure I'm good enough to be better than 0.1mrad (0.3Mia?) even at 100yards
I'm not sure I'm good enough to be better than 0.1mrad (0.3Mia?) even at 100yards
Things like canting a rifle.
What is a small amount of lateral movement from the indented poi at close distances is a large amount at others.
For me, the first shot is really not my problem.
I almost always hit exactly what I’m aiming right where I’m aiming the first shot.
It’s really more of an issue at extreme distances or when they were environmental factors that kind of screws me up
Now, second shots and such I’m not such an issue as long as I’ve seen the impact and have my milling recticle
I almost always hit exactly what I’m aiming right where I’m aiming the first shot.
It’s really more of an issue at extreme distances or when they were environmental factors that kind of screws me up
Now, second shots and such I’m not such an issue as long as I’ve seen the impact and have my milling recticle
At out last match on target at 1780, 2025, 2237 and 2630 i was + - .1 mil on all targets elevation with my 375ct. I use Field Firing Solutions and I have a lot of time with this program. There are easier one to use but FFS works really well for me.
Canting the rifle in itself isn't bad.
Having your aiming device not line up with the fall of gravity though is bad.
One of my life endeavours is to shoot here...
Its kind of a storied range on the local mil base. Steel out to 1000 meters. Twenty targets.
A perfect day would be my .308, one box of FGMM 175.
Draw up a range card, mil the plates through the scope, eat a sammich, attempt twenty first round hits.
Torso plates so every things bigger than MOA.
Holding to the .1 mil wouldn't be necessary but 20 rounds 20 hits would be a challenge for me.
Yep, gots to read all the way through a thread before answering the post - premature answeration - story of my life.
I think that an important point to make here is, regardless of your ability, you should make every attempt to true your data to as small a measurement as you can make.
Typically that is .1 as it’s the smallest amount we can dial into our turrets. If you have .05 turrets, attempt to true to that.
And, it doesn’t matter your skill level. If you shoot a 1.5moa group at 1k, true your data to the center of that group and true it to the smallest amount you can.
If you have a crazy amount of trouble getting your software to line up, one of two things is happening:
You need to familiarize yourself more with that software
You are influencing the shot in a way your software is unable to calculate
Typically that is .1 as it’s the smallest amount we can dial into our turrets. If you have .05 turrets, attempt to true to that.
And, it doesn’t matter your skill level. If you shoot a 1.5moa group at 1k, true your data to the center of that group and true it to the smallest amount you can.
If you have a crazy amount of trouble getting your software to line up, one of two things is happening:
You need to familiarize yourself more with that software
You are influencing the shot in a way your software is unable to calculate
::did not read other comments::
The question is skewed and feedback is predominately subjective yet based on hypothetical math. Most people can’t can’t call wind within 1 MPH and most can’t consistently perform at the level required to provide accurate feedback.
If you’re getting a mass of feedback that’s outside of 600 or 800, you might want to reconsider the sources in your poll. Anyone can read/hold a tenth in a reticle, which may be a factor in feedback. Most shooters can’t perform part those ranges consistently, at least from what I’ve seen over the years...even on their home ranges.
The majority of shooters can’t walk up, uncase, get behind the system, dial/hold, and put a (first) round into a target at 600, let alone 800/1000. If first round impacts aren’t your thing, then you shouldn’t be polling at a range you can’t perform at.
That should be the first thing all shooters do when they show up. Uncase, plop down, and shoot the farthest target they have solid data for. Push yourself reach day or what’s the point?
Most can’t read their reticles to within a tenth and rarely do shooters have the ability to go down and measure their groups/offset at a public range (at the farther ranges). This adds to the error of poll results. ?
The question is skewed and feedback is predominately subjective yet based on hypothetical math. Most people can’t can’t call wind within 1 MPH and most can’t consistently perform at the level required to provide accurate feedback.
If you’re getting a mass of feedback that’s outside of 600 or 800, you might want to reconsider the sources in your poll. Anyone can read/hold a tenth in a reticle, which may be a factor in feedback. Most shooters can’t perform part those ranges consistently, at least from what I’ve seen over the years...even on their home ranges.
The majority of shooters can’t walk up, uncase, get behind the system, dial/hold, and put a (first) round into a target at 600, let alone 800/1000. If first round impacts aren’t your thing, then you shouldn’t be polling at a range you can’t perform at.
That should be the first thing all shooters do when they show up. Uncase, plop down, and shoot the farthest target they have solid data for. Push yourself reach day or what’s the point?
Most can’t read their reticles to within a tenth and rarely do shooters have the ability to go down and measure their groups/offset at a public range (at the farther ranges). This adds to the error of poll results. ?
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this is what i need to do....i was about ready to sell my kestrel at one point so i thought id give it one last try and found several things i input wrong...its been within .1-.2 now except in the mornings its calling for .3mils MORE than actual past 600ish?
Honestly, I can not say I can ever make 10th of mil shot for sure.
But I still want my data to be as accurate as possible, because any data that is off increases misses even more.
No one can argue exact data does not help.
My problem at least with 22LR long range is that even slightest enviromental changes change POI drastically. Today there was 0.4mil change from the room temp ammo to when it was cooled.
Preparing a year-around reliable dope is hard and you must try to get that .1 accuracy because when the weather changes you will be .3 instead of .4 off the target.
But I still want my data to be as accurate as possible, because any data that is off increases misses even more.
No one can argue exact data does not help.
My problem at least with 22LR long range is that even slightest enviromental changes change POI drastically. Today there was 0.4mil change from the room temp ammo to when it was cooled.
Preparing a year-around reliable dope is hard and you must try to get that .1 accuracy because when the weather changes you will be .3 instead of .4 off the target.
For the purposes of his question, I didn’t/wouldn’t take wind into account.
Elevation is where I would be asking since he mentioned software
I may be confused about things here.
I'm not a technology guy.
Asking about holding .1 mil I took in regards to the actual act of firing the rifle.
Is the real question concerning "Who has their ballistic apps get them to within .1 mil when taking the shot?"
To me that seems to confuse the goal.
Sure if your app gets you to within .1 mil your app goals and shooting goals will likely converge.
but if your first shot misses do you mess with the app in order to get it to match the true facts you observed by the impact of the bullet assuming you didn't pull a shot?
I'm in the wrong area "ADVANCED Marksmanship" and need to get myself back in "The Pit".
My limited use of a Kestrel with AB found it to be a great tool, usually got me real close and I was only able to put in rudimentary data it being a class loaner, still it was within a tenth or two most cases probably because I was using a factory profile round (175 FGMM) and had chrono data.
When I did miss though I didn't question why my App didn't make the shot.
I saw real data in the splash and adjusted accordingly.
Ill shut up now as Ive proven myself enough the fool.
I'm not a technology guy.
Asking about holding .1 mil I took in regards to the actual act of firing the rifle.
Is the real question concerning "Who has their ballistic apps get them to within .1 mil when taking the shot?"
To me that seems to confuse the goal.
Sure if your app gets you to within .1 mil your app goals and shooting goals will likely converge.
but if your first shot misses do you mess with the app in order to get it to match the true facts you observed by the impact of the bullet assuming you didn't pull a shot?
I'm in the wrong area "ADVANCED Marksmanship" and need to get myself back in "The Pit".
My limited use of a Kestrel with AB found it to be a great tool, usually got me real close and I was only able to put in rudimentary data it being a class loaner, still it was within a tenth or two most cases probably because I was using a factory profile round (175 FGMM) and had chrono data.
When I did miss though I didn't question why my App didn't make the shot.
I saw real data in the splash and adjusted accordingly.
Ill shut up now as Ive proven myself enough the fool.
That’s a simple fix.
I don’t know kestrels system well but I’m almost positive helping friends set up theirs that I’ve seen a temp correction for powder area in it
Maybe someday I’ll get a kestrel.
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