Poor professionalism

[prashants17]

I have had so many bad experiences around the custom bolt action rifle industry that I have to vent, pretty much all involved seem to extremely sloppy in terms of timely delivery, order a custom stock, get a gunsmith to work on a gun, paint job, swapping a barrel, custom rifle after all parts are provided or order a custom rifle from MPA the one unifying fact is absolutely destroying the promised delivery date by weeks, does anyone else has similar experience ??

 

[kRcu]

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I thought you were supposed to just triple the estimated turn around time so that you're only mildly annoyed when its four times longer than quoted.

 

[armada]

I learned years ago that anything custom took a long time, longer than quoted. Especially if the gunsmith works with some form of agency. The agency goes first.

I waited over a year for my fist custom after being told that it would take 6 months and I gave the gunsmith all the parts. Now when they tell me 6 months, I expect a year. While I’m waiting on that build, I’m lining up another. That’s just the way it works out sometimes. A few times I was told 6 weeks and a particular builder got it back to me in less than 4 weeks.

All I can say is, it happens and be as patient as possible. You/me picked a particular builder for a reason and things happen. Also, the precision shooting scene blew up some years ago and is still going stronger every year. FTR shooters also use the same builders as do bench rest and hunters and enthusiasts alike.

It’s all worth the wait.
Just my opinion.

 

[Silverjay]

Turn around time on my last build was roughly one week once parts arrived. I can’t complain about that.

 

[rd_kng]

I must have a great gunsmith. He has always met his dates with great service.

 

[Bender]

I’m positive you didn’t use LRI..... lol...

 

[Shrubjr]

If you run into an asshole in the morning, you met an asshole. If you run into asshole's all day...you're the asshole.

Seriously though, think about the generalization you just made. How many people work in the custom bolt gun world? A few hundred? A few thousand? Do you really think you can fairly say that they are ALL sloppy and bad? Seems like a stretch to me.

 

[TheOE800]

Guess I’m an asshole. ?

 

[mark5pt56]

In my opinion, the time to build is simply the smith stacking work. The other factor maybe batching of work type. So, how long would it take a builder to do a complete build if he/she started 0800 on a Monday?

 

[my human host]

In my opinion, the time to build is simply the smith stacking work. The other factor maybe batching of work type. So, how long would it take a builder to do a complete build if he/she started 0800 on a Monday?

Not a pro, just a schmuck who rolls his own using old school methods. I can normally do a full build in a weekend. Test firing for function can be done any time. Testing for accuracy can require waiting for suitable weather.

 

[ckmcmuso308]

I emailed a follow up question to a company that does work on semi-autos on 11-8-2017.
They replied back yesterday. So there you go, 4 months just to get a question answered.

 

[beaverpelt]

I'm in the process of having work done by RW Snyder and this is my first time sending parts off to have work done by a custom smith. My first experience has been great. When I call he picks up the phone himself right away and answers any questions I have. He is also one of the nicest guys I've ever spoke to. He was also right on with his quoted times.

 

[Hunt]

First build was quoted 7 months; it took a year. Second build was quoted 12 months; it took 15 months. Third build took 3 months on a group buy. Fourth build was quoted 5 months; it took 4 months.

I've learned that the longer the build, usually the better the 'smith. There's a reason there's a backlog. If you don't want to wait, there's always the ability to barrel nut and learn how to bed a rifle.

 

[Spblademaker]

Quality service issues are usually a self correcting problem.

 

[Lunchbox27]

I’m guessing you have never bought a suppressor.

 

[tna9001]

Or, you could give Mile High a call and get a AI. You can even pick the color, have the thing in your hands in 10 days or so.

https://www.milehighshooting.com/accuracy-international-rifles/

 

[kRcu]

You could also have Mile High do a build for you. They have Surgeon, Mausingfield, Bighorn, etc. actions on the shelf. I had them do a TL3 build for me a few months back....quoted me 6 weeks, had it finished in 5 days.

 

[801pe]

Or, you could give Mile High a call and get a AI. You can even pick the color, have the thing in your hands in 10 days or so.

https://www.milehighshooting.com/accuracy-international-rifles/

And it'll be worth something when you want to sell it.

 

[Va_Gentleman]

First build was quoted 7 months; it took a year. Second build was quoted 12 months; it took 15 months. Third build took 3 months on a group buy. Fourth build was quoted 5 months; it took 4 months.

I've learned that the longer the build, usually the better the 'smith. There's a reason there's a backlog. If you don't want to wait, there's always the ability to barrel nut and learn how to bed a rifle.

This is true most of the time... My smith told me it would be awhile and before we started, and then he had gallbladder surgery, which is understandable. We kept in contact and he let me know as he got back into things. Now, I have a true precision custom rifle that will outshoot anything on the field. (The rifle will.. I can't)

 

[nexusfire]

I’m positive you didn’t use LRI..... lol...

They have been the best in regards to turn around time in my experience. In general I source the parts myself and send it off. Stocks and barrels take the longest. I like using a chassis so that cuts out a lot of the bullshit.

 

[steve123]

They have been the best in regards to turn around time in my experience. In general I source the parts myself and send it off. Stocks and barrels take the longest. I like using a chassis so that cuts out a lot of the bullshit.

Nothing to do with LRI but...

I've had some bad experiences! One was a robbing Peter to pay Paul type of gunsmith. I gave a deposit of 50% to the GS. I had done research by locating and securing a custom action (in high demand), then told the GS where to buy it and that there were 3 left on the shelf, so he needed to call that day to get it. I didn't hear from him for a few months so I though I better call. The asshole didn't buy the action but had his excuses of course, basically he had spent all my money to pay his bills. From that point all trust was gone, 9 months later I finally threatened legal action, he got the rifle done a few weeks later and did a half assed job in some ways and also tried overcharging in others. He wasn't a half bad guy but I definitely wish I had chose another GS. At least the rifle shot super good!!!

That's why I buy chassis systems now and am going prefits from now on.

 

[GMZ]

PCR did my build pretty quick, they quoted me 6-8 weeks and had it done in about 5.

 

[TXBear]

I've had some bad experiences! One was a robbing Peter to pay Paul type of gunsmith. I gave a deposit of 50% to the GS. I had done research by locating and securing a custom action (in high demand), then told the GS where to buy it and that there were 3 left on the shelf, so he needed to call that day to get it. I didn't hear from him for a few months so I though I better call. The asshole didn't buy the action but had his excuses of course, basically he had spent all my money to pay his bills. From that point all trust was gone, 9 months later I finally threatened legal action, he got the rifle done a few weeks later and did a half assed job in some ways and also tried overcharging in others. He wasn't a half bad guy but I definitely wish I had chose another GS. At least the rifle shot super good!!!

That's why I buy chassis systems now and am going prefits from now on.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And this is why I buy the parts THEN send it off to get put together.

I know that there are many gunsmiths that will get themselves in a bind in one way or the other. Who among us can't say we've been in a similar position.
My last build was on a Stiller action. Sent it off to Pac-nor and they put it all together. Time quoted 5-7 weeks. Delivered in 6. Had a local smith finish the bedding and stock work - add another 4 weeks.
Took it to the range and worked up a load etc, etc, etc.

Fast-forward a year and I was put in a position of needing $$$. Down the road it went.

 

[m6z]

Order custom action, pre-fit barrel & chassis. Assemble it yourself with a vise and a couple of headspace gauges.

No gunsmith needed. Now the only wait is on the parts and a lot of those are on the shelf and ready to ship.

 

[Bender]

I've had some bad experiences! One was a robbing Peter to pay Paul type of gunsmith. I gave a deposit of 50% to the GS. I had done research by locating and securing a custom action (in high demand), then told the GS where to buy it and that there were 3 left on the shelf, so he needed to call that day to get it. I didn't hear from him for a few months so I though I better call. The asshole didn't buy the action but had his excuses of course, basically he had spent all my money to pay his bills. From that point all trust was gone, 9 months later I finally threatened legal action, he got the rifle done a few weeks later and did a half assed job in some ways and also tried overcharging in others. He wasn't a half bad guy but I definitely wish I had chose another GS. At least the rifle shot super good!!!

That's why I buy chassis systems now and am going prefits from now on.

The guy you quoted was referring to LRI.

I guarantee you were not referring to LRI

Just to clarify things....

 

[prashants17]

thanks to all for their input, I understand if a quality smith quotes 3-4 months, I am cool with that, what pisses me off is not meeting your promised deadline, that is plain and simple unprofessional, to assemble all available parts does not take more than 8-10 hrs tops, so no excuses for destroying promised delivery dates by weeks, after all they do charge a fee and we pay for it, same retail rules apply, don't take a new job unless you can do it within the promised deadline.

 

[Ledzep]

Yep. I'm with m6z.

It's getting easier and easier to piece these together yourself. Savage prefits were easy, now with stuff like the ARC Barloc out there, it's only about a half-step harder than putting AR-15 legos together.

I mean shit, as an example I had $4700 into my first M700 custom build and I forget the wait time, I think 8 months or so...

$1000 Nucleus, $120 Barloc, $525 PVA prefit barrel, $130 trigger, and a $350 KRG Bravo, and you've got better quality components that are going to shoot just as good. Can put it all together yourself in an hour taking your time.

ETA: As far as wait time and anything that requires machining, get used to it. My buddy just had a VERY simple operation done to a ford FE block and was quoted 6 weeks, ended up being like 6 or 7 months. Same story with a lot of auto-body work. Shit happens, guys bite off more than they can chew, want to sound appealing, etc... I agree to some extent it's their own fault but some things are just "best guesses" and things change, so... is what it is.

 

[V-Ref]

I imagine the old saying of.....Fast, Cheap, & Good, ought to be at least brought up in this thread.

If everyone demanded honesty, integrity, and quality from thier builders...and didn't let quoted build times get in the way of thier build goals...there would be even fewer "problem" builders in business.

The people that get into this industry either for a hobby or even as a living, generally don't have "get rich" at the top of their goal list.

If you look at this as though your looking to develop a long term professional relationship with someone, and instead practice/compete with your rifle and ignore the build time. It will be worth it over the long haul.

Builders are getting more responsive to wait and build times, as on the shelf components and chassis are readily available (Manners JAE etc exceptions).

My advice would be to

Research build goals & nail those down
Stockpile your build components
Call and interview builders
Once you have all your parts, press the build decision button and leave the build alone. If you did your research correctly, it'll be worth the wait.

 

[steve123]

The guy you quoted was referring to LRI.

I guarantee you were not referring to LRI

Just to clarify things....

Oh, right, this had nothing to do with LRI.

 

[Sniperwannabee]

Or, you could give Mile High a call and get a AI. You can even pick the color, have the thing in your hands in 10 days or so.

https://www.milehighshooting.com/accuracy-international-rifles/

Bingo

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

I used to make custom knives and will again when I retire. There are three things to consider when commissioning Custom work - Price, Quality, Time frame/wait time. You only get 2 of the three - you can get top quality, tomorrow, but it isn't gonna be cheap. You can get top quality cheaper, but it isn't gonna be fast or soon. You can have it soon/fast, and get it cheap, but it's gonna be low end quality.

Build yer own and one becomes more tolerant of all three concepts. Really good custom/one off stuff is never cheap nor fast.

VooDoo

 

[Bradu]

I'm in the process of having work done by RW Snyder and this is my first time sending parts off to have work done by a custom smith. My first experience has been great. When I call he picks up the phone himself right away and answers any questions I have. He is also one of the nicest guys I've ever spoke to. He was also right on with his quoted times.

He is great to deal with and is pretty good about turnaround time. I've used him for almost all my work and will continue to use his in the future.

 

[ckmcmuso308]

I think in most cases the amount of time it takes is generally not the issue, it’s the unkept promises that pisses people off and creates distrust.

 

[JeffLebowski]

2009 SH build, just saying...

 

[prashants17]

I used to make custom knives and will again when I retire. There are three things to consider when commissioning Custom work - Price, Quality, Time frame/wait time. You only get 2 of the three - you can get top quality, tomorrow, but it isn't gonna be cheap. You can get top quality cheaper, but it isn't gonna be fast or soon. You can have it soon/fast, and get it cheap, but it's gonna be low end quality.

Build yer own and one becomes more tolerant of all three concepts. Really good custom/one off stuff is never cheap nor fast.

VooDoo

I agree, the point was not better, cheap and fast, point was when you charge the money that you ask deliver on the promised time, it could be 3 months but deliver on TIME

 

[TheOE800]

Or, you could give Mile High a call and get a AI. You can even pick the color, have the thing in your hands in 10 days or so.

https://www.milehighshooting.com/accuracy-international-rifles/

10 days? Ludicrous. I had my AI from EuroOptic next day.

 

[Sig Marine]

I'm going to "cut to the chase"...while the length of time to get a build completed can be lengthy, the problem as I see it is the poor communication that many "smiths" seem to display. In my business and work, a "no" is just as important as a "yes". Don't mislead a customer. If it's going to take 6 months, so be it. But don't tell me 6 months and then take 10 months WITHOUT contacting me and keeping me informed. We all know that things happen that are beyond our control and most of us would understand such events in one's life. But communication with the customer is something that is within one's control, except in extreme circumstances, and yet is overlooked by some gunsmiths when taking on a client. Communicate with your customers as you wish to be communicated with by those you do business with.

Rant off...

 

[wade2big]

If a man is late then he is showing that other people’s time isn’t important and/or doesn’t matter to them. Think about that the next time you make someone wait.

 

[NateVA]

I've only had two builds so far, well one was a barreled action. The first was a build done by RW Snyder that was quoted at 2-3 months and took just under 2 months. The next was an LRI barreled action that they told me would be about a week once they got the parts and they met that deadline perfectly. I'm a very obsessive person and I worry about very small things so I spend a lot of time picking the businesses that get my money. So far that obsession has worked quite well for me.

 

[Rthur]

Parts availability can create problems.
Parts in hand, shouldn't change much on promised delivery date.
Changes after getting started effects the timeline as well.

R

 

[BullzeyeNJ]

I have had great experience with Jon Beanland building me a few rifles. I get on his wait list then he calls me when its time for my build. That is about 8 months. Understand, I have all the parts in my possession already so I mail him the parts and voila, I get a new rifle build back in about 3 weeks. It’s a hammer, the work is flawless and the wait time was minimal considering.

Other people in the industry, and I have used many of the popular ones, the experience has been a bit more painful and frustrating. The end result is usually worth the hassle through. I have been promised three weeks that turned out to 9 months. Another time two months promised turned out to be two years ! I can go on and on.

 

[tna9001]

10 days? Ludicrous. I had my AI from EuroOptic next day.

LOL, I'm assuming you'd want a color or barrel, not in stock. Mile High is also the only AI service center in the US and if you call them you can actually talk to their gunsmith who has been through AI's training program. When I bought my AI there was a lot I didn't know about AI and how their operation worked in the US, I actually bought my rifle through a different company and saved a couple hundred dollars, if I buy another I'll go straight to Mile High and pay whatever they are asking, their customer service is that good.

 

[TheOE800]

You do you, I’ll do me and I chose Euro over MHS for reasons of professionalism extended to me the times I’d done business with both.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

I agree, the point was not better, cheap and fast, point was when you charge the money that you ask deliver on the promised time, it could be 3 months but deliver on TIME

The problem with truly doing one off custom work that is Art and of the highest caliber is that shit happens that simply cannot be dealt with. Materials and getting micro accuracy makes for situations that cannot be anticipated in advance - also, clients ask for stuff that is sometimes impossible or nearly so. And then when it takes 3X as long people get pissed thinking that money makes priority in art and perfection. It. Does. Not.

To get what the artist wants takes time and expertise. Money don't mean shit. Expectations do not dictate time frame nor does money. With top end custom work it takes as long as it takes.

This is why I rejected custom work - I made cool shit and offered it and people scarfed it up. Then folks started asking for amendments and custom stuff based on my stuff. They wanted what I had done for another only tweaked to their specs. Then the problems began as material has a mind of it's own. So I rejected one off custom stuff and offered one of pre built stuff on a website. Buy what you see and like. No Custom work.

People were pissed but all the stuff delivered was treasured and never came back. One off custom work is very difficult and folks who can pull it off are ultimate craftsmen and Saints. Time frame is not dependent on a clients demands unfortunately. We can promise a time but no one can make it happen. I have cautioned many craftsmen not to promise delivery times. It can't be done at the highest level, In the end it takes as long as it takes and in this world of "I fucking want it *NoW!*" that makes waves. People wanna put an Artists feet in the fire when he doesn't deliver on time but if we want really cool Custom shit we have to wait. Word.

VooDoo

 

[prashants17]

The problem with truly doing one off custom work that is Art and of the highest caliber is that shit happens that simply cannot be dealt with. Materials and getting micro accuracy makes for situations that cannot be anticipated in advance - also, clients ask for stuff that is sometimes impossible or nearly so. And then when it takes 3X as long people get pissed thinking that money makes priority in art and perfection. It. Does. Not.

To get what the artist wants takes time and expertise. Money don't mean shit. Expectations do not dictate time frame nor does money. With top end custom work it takes as long as it takes.

This is why I rejected custom work - I made cool shit and offered it and people scarfed it up. Then folks started asking for amendments and custom stuff based on my stuff. They wanted what I had done for another only tweaked to their specs. Then the problems began as material has a mind of it's own. So I rejected one off custom stuff and offered one of pre built stuff on a website. Buy what you see and like. No Custom work.

People were pissed but all the stuff delivered was treasured and never came back. One off custom work is very difficult and folks who can pull it off are ultimate craftsmen and Saints. Time frame is not dependent on a clients demands unfortunately. We can promise a time but no one can make it happen. I have cautioned many craftsmen not to promise delivery times. It can't be done at the highest level, In the end it takes as long as it takes and in this world of "I fucking want it *NoW!*" that makes waves. People wanna put an Artists feet in the fire when he doesn't deliver on time but if we want really cool Custom shit we have to wait. Word.

VooDoo

respectfully disagree, it is like any professional service, all I expect is to live up to your own word, one of delay is OK but if you do it as a habit then there is a problem.

 

[wade2big]

.......Other people in the industry, and I have used many of the popular ones, the experience has been a bit more painful and frustrating. The end result is usually worth the hassle through. I have been promised three weeks that turned out to 9 months. Another time two months promised turned out to be two years ! I can go on and on.

This is completely unprofessional and it is a shady business practice. I would have never waited two years after being told 2months. Time is money. The reason they lie is to lock up the work. Its that plain and simple.

 

[ChuckSwagger]

GA Precison told me one year and delivered it in 8 months.
Mark from Short Action Custom is a top to notch, delivery before stated.
A very knowed builder here which started his own brand tell me 4 weeks to delivery my Ruger rebarreled with a pre fit barrel, it took 2 years without the cerakote and the Muzzle Brake.
My custom rifle was quoted 4-6 weeks and ended up 6 months even with all parts in hand. It was delivered with a garbage finish, he cut my AICS AX MC with a knife to fit the bolt, I ordered Bartlein barrel and he send me another brand. He told me the rifle was done and shipped to be cerakoted, but it arrived without it.
I feel pity for those who payed a non refundable pre order rifle from him.
God Bless you!

 

[Sig Marine]

VooDoo said, "We can promise a time but no one can make it happen". As a business owner and craftsman, I respectfully disagree. As I stated in my previous post, unexpected things can happen and most people will understand. When I contact a gunsmith for work and ask about lead times and am told 6 months, this is the gunsmith telling me when it can be completed. If I send him my components, I am agreeing to the time frame HE gave me. The problem is if time management is a habitual occurrence, which seems to be what we are discussing, then one needs to re-evaluate lead times quoted or risk losing customers who expect builds done within the time frame quoted. If you give me a time based on YOUR workload and ability, live up to your commitment. If it can't be met because of an emergency or an unexpected delay, CALL ME.


Running a business is not an easy task. I've been around small businesses all my life from the single employee, owner/operator, to the 4-5 man shops and the one thing I learned was that while some people can run a machine, they are not capable of the everyday operation and communication of a business. I certainly respect those who run a shop as a one-man operation but those who are successful and do it well, are few and far between.

 

[Fig]

George Gardener told me 9 months and delivered in 7.
Phil Cashin told me 3 months and it was done in two.

Under promise and over deliver is not a new sales concept.

I used to live next to a hippie architect. He was a substitute, elementary gym coach, and seemed to barely be surviving. I needed some drawings for a project so I asked him if he’d do them. I asked more to help him out than anything else.

I had 30 days to submit, period. Well, I kept checking his progress, and he gave no indication anything was amiss till the day before they were due. He made all sorts of excuses, and I had to jump through all sorts of hoops to save the deal. When he finally delivered them they were beautiful. The man was extremely talented, and certainly knew what he was doing 100%.

He was a substitute gym teacher with barely any grocery money, rather than an architect working at a big firm, because he couldn’t manage his time or follow through. All the talent in the world will get you nothing if you can’t function like an adult, say what you mean, mean what you say, and keep your promises.