Poor professionalism

[19Scout77]

The biggest problem is that talented smiths have to split their time between day jobs, making chips and dealing with whiny entitled cyber-snipers.

It’s a fucking hobby people...if you truly NEED a rifle, rest assured your agency, etc. will give you one.

 

[cottonant]

George Gardener told me 9 months and delivered in 7.
Phil Cashin told me 3 months and it was done in two.

Under promise and over deliver is not a new sales concept.

I used to live next to a hippie architect. He was a substitute, elementary gym coach, and seemed to barely be surviving. I needed some drawings for a project so I asked him if he’d do them. I asked more to help him out than anything else.

I had 30 days to submit, period. Well, I kept checking his progress, and he gave no indication anything was amiss till the day before they were due. He made all sorts of excuses, and I had to jump through all sorts of hoops to save the deal. When he finally delivered them they were beautiful. The man was extremely talented, and certainly knew what he was doing 100%.

He was a substitute gym teacher with barely any grocery money, rather than an architect working at a big firm, because he couldn’t manage his time or follow through. All the talent in the world will get you nothing if you can’t function like an adult, say what you mean, mean what you say, and keep your promises.

 

[Targetshooter.co.uk]

Why do custom builds take so long? It's not the 'build' i.e. putting the bits together - it's obtaining the bits.

Consider the action - not just the different makes but the variations of bolt-head size, right-bolt left-port, right bolt right-port etc. etc. Then double it with barrels - makes, sizes, twists profiles etc.

Few gunsmiths can afford to have thousands of dollars worth of components sat on shelves - so, it's down to what you spec. and how quickly the manufacturer can supply the smith with your custom bits.

If you give a realistic build-time of say a year and deliver in 9 months, you're a hero. If you say 6 months and deliver in nine months you're an asshole!

At the end of the day, with a custom build, you want exactly what you want - not a compromise. So, be patient and give these guys a break. The 'best' is usually worth the wait.

 

[Fig]

When I was ordering from GAP they initially said 6 months. I placed the order and then called back the next day. I had changed my mind on the finish on the Manners stock. The guy on the phone said this would add three months?!? For paint? “Isn’t Manners on the same block?” They get them in lots, and that one wasn’t due for many months.

I understand component manufacturing. I understand dealing with suppliers. The gun builders who also understand these things get tons of work, grow, and make lots of money. The ones who don’t may still be really good gunsmiths, but they are going to be your grade school, substitute gym coaches struggling for grocery money and to pay bills. It isn’t different than any other business, and if you think it is I would avoid it.

Yes, it’s just a hobby. An extremely expensive and time consuming hobby that a lot of us are as serious about as anything else in this life. Aside from family and what I haveI to spend money on I really don’t spend money on anything else but firearms and reloading components. It’s a big deal for me to have a rifle built. Much bigger than replacing a vehicle, and more like buying an investment property. So far I’ve only dealt with reputable people who told it straight and over delivered. I’ll read the horror stories on here thankyouverymuch.

 

[rookie7]

Met an Army Captain once and his job on post was to instruct others how to plan. At first I thought it was the biggest BS I had ever heard of - now I know different.

Most people, regardless of education level, aren’t naturally wired for planning time and tasks.

This lack of communication in the rifle industry is rampant in other areas as well. Found this out this past summer when a local guy worked on a few weed trimmers and leaf blowers for me. Idiot flat out lied to my 3 times. He will never see me again.

Top business practice should be: honesty and appropriate communication.

If you can’t do that - close your doors.

 

[JeffLebowski]

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/announcing-the-2009-snipers-hide-build-rifle.18825/

 

[RyanScott]

I live the post gunsmith lifestyle personally. Life is better that way.

The exception is Wayne at AHR, his time estimates could be written in stone.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Not to be flippant; but this is why I have so much esteem for the factory rifle, and the upgrade parts from Midway, etc.; assembled by yours truly.

I have the luxury of knowing that when there's a delay, I'm the one I'm waiting on. I simply don't have the patience for the waiting game so many of you report here. Seen from the other end, if I choose to put my toe in that water and I get scalded, who's to blame, really?

I have shot some excellent custom rifles and that has confirmed that the loose nut in the process is myself. If they don't perform for me as well as others say, then that leaves just me as the source of the problem. IMHO, I probably don't deserve top of the line products; they should be reserved for better shooters.

But ask nearly anyone, and they'll likely tell you they are the ones the rifles should belong to. Are they all right about that? Good question.

Greg

 

[canezach]

I would be more understanding if they would simply communicate more openly, as I'm sure everyone else would. I had a headache of an order recently with a well known smith. I ordered an item with X, Y, and Z for options. What arrived initially was the base item without any of the options, so it was sent back. Once it arrived a second time, option X, which was the most important, was there, but options Y and Z were not. The other two options were trivial and more user preference, but my feeling is you offer them and the customer specifies that's what he wants, the customer should receive them. I sent emails before ordering with no response. After placing the order, I sent additional emails with no response. I received one email, then finally a second one telling me the item had shipped.

I understand delays. I understand the unexpected occurs. What I don't understand is the lack of communication. On the flip side, I had a full build with a different, lesser known smith a few years ago, and from the beginning, the communication was very good. I was told the lead time was X months because some of the components were not readily available, such as a Krieger barrel in a certain caliber, twist rate, and profile. I was notified when the barrel arrived. I was notified when the work was completed. I was notified when it shipped. Yes, the expected lead time passed before I received my rifle, but the communication was there to let me know why and when it was expected to be completed. A little thing like an email goes a long way.

 

[HelmandHunter]

I have had so many bad experiences around the custom bolt action rifle industry that I have to vent, pretty much all involved seem to extremely sloppy in terms of timely delivery, order a custom stock, get a gunsmith to work on a gun, paint job, swapping a barrel, custom rifle after all parts are provided or order a custom rifle from MPA the one unifying fact is absolutely destroying the promised delivery date by weeks, does anyone else has similar experience ??

I have experienced most of these kind of issues with custom handgun smiths or plastic hackers like Glockworx/Zev.

 

[Rthur]

There are many "small" smiths that deliver a great product and timely.
Easier for them to act in a one on one capacity.
Most aren't as aggressively marketed as the big names.

R

 

[mdmp5]

I think I have all of you beat. I waited almost 3 years one time. Never will I do that again.

 

[turboek]

I’m positive you didn’t use LRI..... lol...

We had a horrible dealing with LRI, never again

 

[canezach]

I think I have all of you beat. I waited almost 3 years one time. Never will I do that again.

Sounds like you ordered one of the 2009 Snipers Hide builds

 

[mdmp5]

Sounds like you ordered one of the 2009 Snipers Hide builds

Nope, totally different experience

 

[prashants17]

So for the most part I agree with what has been said, please do realize that I completely understand if a smith says it will be 6 months for a build, what i don't get is when they are provided with all the parts, paid the money they ask for and then they don't deliver anywhere close to THEIR OWN promised time.

Example- if you order a custom suit and tailor goes 2 weeks over will that be ok ? or if you have a contractor build a new house and the promised time is 8 months will it be ok for him to go 4 months over ? (they pay 2-3 K as a fine each week they exceed in most builder contracts).

I am sure none of that is cool with anyone, so how is building a custom gun different, when you have been given all the parts, you get the money you demand and then you don't deliver anywhere close to YOUR OWN chosen time (not what i wanted), it is a professional service and should be held to the same standard as any other professional service.

I am building my 3rd custom 338 LMP from one of the top gun brands in the country ( well known for their chasis) paid 60% deposit upfront was told 8-12 weeks max, I called at 10 weeks was told should be shipped in 2 weeks, called week 13 and was told the action has been ordered and is expected anytime WTF, how is that cool.

 

[Bender]

Did another SH build ever happen? Just curious

 

[JeffLebowski]

Did another SH build ever happen? Just curious

Yeah, @MarcS of Spartan Precision and Lowlight pulled off a great build in 2012. No issues.

 

[davsco]

Under promise and over deliver is not a new sales concept.

it really is as simple as that.

both sides of the table have to perform. one side pays $$, the other side delivers the promised quality within the promised timeline. and certainly, if the timeline is in danger (sickness, downstream vendor fails, etc) then contact the customer and work out a plan b.

 

[CBlack]

Bolt gun guys are spoiled. I'm 4.5 years in on a 5 year wait for a custom 1911. And I'm 2 years in on a 5+ year wait for another 1911.

A rifle builder says a year, and I say, "That's all?"

 

[wade2big]

Bolt gun guys are spoiled. I'm 4.5 years in on a 5 year wait for a custom 1911. And I'm 2 years in on a 5+ year wait for another 1911.

A rifle builder says a year, and I say, "That's all?"

And when you get that 1911 after all those years it is still gonna give you more hell than a $500 glock available everywhere.

 

[daves37120]

I have been fortunate by working with Accurate Ordnance. The first custom build was completed, as promised, in four weeks, as they had all parts on hand. Parts were supplied on the second build and wanted the rifle is 3 weeks. Once again, no problem. For the next one debating whether to have GAP build it, or just purchase an AI. One of the custom AO rifles will need to go first.

 

[CBlack]

And when you get that 1911 after all those years it is still gonna give you more hell than a $500 glock available everywhere.

Only if you drag it through the dirt! And at least mine will be one of a kind. Everyone has a Block, except me.

 

[Carl_Ross]

There is a smaller precision rifle smith here in Montana who often chambers barrels “while you wait”. Not a bad deal! There are a couple of others who are talented and will get stuff done quickly if you have all the parts in hand. I think there are more and more good “local” precision rifle smiths out there, if you are involved with a local competition community you’ll usually hear about them.

In my experience, GA Precision, Short Action Customs, and Greg at Southern Precision Rifles/Bugholes have all hit the dates they promised with quality work.

Anymore, I have no interest in shipping parts across the country and waiting for metal work. It’ll be local guys I trust for shouldered barrels, Greg at SPR for high end bugnut barrels, or James at NSS for budget barrel nut setups.

 

[timelinex]

I can't believe how many people literally MISS THE POINT. It's not about how long it takes for a custom product to be made. If a gunsmith promised 5 years and made it in 5 years, this wouldn't apply to this complaint. It's about promising a delivery date you cannot make. The customer shouldn't have to guesstimate how many times longer than your quote is acceptable. It doesn't matter if you are building a car or drawing a piece of art. If you know it can take you anywhere from 5 days to 2 years, you quote 2.5 years. People can take it or leave it. Promising anything under 2 years would be knowingly lying to your customer. Last I checked, lying to the customer is not OK or an honorable thing.

It always surprises me how much bad business people in the gun industry can get away with. This would not fly in most other fields.

 

[canuckistaninia]

Try living in canuckistan where everything fun falls under ITAR. Just getting a barrel takes ~6 months (2-3 for the order to be fullfilled and 2-3 for it to get an export permit to ship out of the US). I ordered a BORS in November, 19 weeks later, it MIGHT make it to me by this weekend.

 

[PAYDIRT]

You sure can tell who owns a business and who doesn't. I guess some people don't mind dawdling service. Missing times by months without family/health problems is nothing more than a LIE. When a man gives his word that he's going to do a job he needs to do that.

 

[Xander3Zero]

People keep mentioning "promises" and "giving your word" in this thread which I find interesting. When I am purchasing separate rifle components, or having a rifle built, I don't want the supplier or gunsmith to make some promise about a lead time. They are running a business and I expect them to make an educated (based on their capabilities and experience) estimate on when it will all be available. Obviously its not amazon prime, and +/- a few days, or even a few weeks relatively speaking is perfectly acceptable.

The biggest point that I think most are trying to make here is that communication is key. If you say 4 weeks, and week 4 comes around and you need another 2 weeks, you should be contacting the customer to let them know. As the customer, you shouldn't have to follow up after the expected lead time has passed, it is the service provider's responsibility to keep you posted. Again, I understand some of these smaller shops who don't have dedicated customer service reps to handle all of this work, but if that is the case, then you need to carefully evaluate and reconsider the lead times you're providing your customers.

Because I have been in communication with him the past couple weeks, I will use Greg @ Southern Precision Rifles as an example. I believe he is pretty much a one man shop, and I have been very happy with the communication timeline so far. It says right on his website that he replies to emails from 5am-8am, then works in the shop till around 3/4pm, then returns phone calls until about 7pm. Every time I send him an email, he responds no later than the next day in the morning, and every time I've left him a voicemail, he returns my call that night. As the customer I really appreciate that he incorporates customer service into his daily routine. I am hoping to be similarly impressed with the quality of his work when its all done!

 

[prashants17]

I can't believe how many people literally MISS THE POINT. It's not about how long it takes for a custom product to be made. If a gunsmith promised 5 years and made it in 5 years, this wouldn't apply to this complaint. It's about promising a delivery date you cannot make. The customer shouldn't have to guesstimate how many times longer than your quote is acceptable. It doesn't matter if you are building a car or drawing a piece of art. If you know it can take you anywhere from 5 days to 2 years, you quote 2.5 years. People can take it or leave it. Promising anything under 2 years would be knowingly lying to your customer. Last I checked, lying to the customer is not OK or an honorable thing.

It always surprises me how much bad business people in the gun industry can get away with. This would not fly in most other fields.

Dude so true, few folks just don't get the basic premise - its not the long wait time, its promising a delivery date and then not delivering weeks to months beyond that date inspite of a deposit and all parts provided.

 

[TripleBull]

You do you, I’ll do me and I chose Euro over MHS for reasons of professionalism extended to me the times I’d done business with both.

Euro has been ~good to me & MHS has been excellent. All custom/smithing work I've had done by MHS has been completed ahead of schedule and at exceptionally high quality.

 

[RyanScott]

Most gunsmiths are just bad businessmen, like many or most small businessmen. That’s the root of the problem. Once they are big enough to have someone in the front office tracking things and handling invoices and taxes things even out usually.

 

[prashants17]

possibly true for the most part, but I am currently undergoing third grade torture from A1 grade gun maker, may be one off kinda thing ....

 

[jakelly]

Long wait times aren’t the problem. Everyone understands backlogs, or even emergencies.

Dishonest, disingenuous business practices are the problem. And rightly so.

Every customer spouting apologetics for this should slap themselves. You’re 70% of the reason crooks and flakes continue to prey on our community.

 

[longshot2000]

I would not put up with sloppy, but poor timing is very common. I think you can draw one of those algebra curves that curves upward fast, where the x-axis is time and the y-axis is quality. Good work just take time, and most of the best craftsmen think it will take a shorter period of time than it really takes, so good at artisan work, bad at estimating.

I have a sailboat, and find a common theme between boat craftsmen and gunsmiths. days = weeks, weeks = months, months = foggetaboutit

 

[Xander3Zero]

I would not put up with sloppy, but poor timing is very common. I think you can draw one of those algebra curves that curves upward fast, where the x-axis is time and the y-axis is quality. Good work just take time, and most of the best craftsmen think it will take a shorter period of time than it really takes, so good at artisan work, bad at estimating.

I have a sailboat, and find a common theme between boat craftsmen and gunsmiths. days = weeks, weeks = months, months = foggetaboutit

I'd like to direct you to @jakelly post...

Long wait times aren’t the problem. Everyone understands backlogs, or even emergencies.

Dishonest, disingenuous business practices are the problem. And rightly so.

Every customer spouting apologetics for this should slap themselves. You’re 70% of the reason crooks and flakes continue to prey on our community.

 

[RyanScott]

It’s machining not draw filing and rust bluing.

 

[prashants17]

I'd like to direct you to @jakelly post...

Agree