It would be great if you could recreate the video posted by OP with an old bronze brush and barrel, but provide actual measurements before and after. Would doing this result in an out of tolerance barrel?
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Precision rifle cleaning.
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I can only tell you that in convo with Frank Green he recommended an oversized patch wrapped around a Parker Hale type jag with the abrasive on the patch. I asked if I could just wrap a patch around a brush...he demurred and recommended not. I said, "nylon brush" and he replied again...nah.
And that's a far distance from a brush chucked in a drill. The people you mention who clean with a drill....do they pay for their barrels, do you think. And even if they do, do these top BR and F class shooters not go through a LOT of barrels....rather quickly?
I had to pick someone to listen to on this subject with some many contradictory positions argued and so I picked Frank.
Cheers
That is indeed the relevant post and is, to my mind, objective evidence vs navel peering speculation we mostly indulge in wrt to this subject.Please reread some of @Feniks Technologies posts on this thread and tell me otherwise? He’s a standup dude, but he’s wrong here. On this forum, in general, you’ll often read that a soft thing cannot scratch a hard thing.
What is missing is that “scratch” means one thing on the Mohs scale and quite another in layman’s terms. “Wear” is more like it to people like me way back in the peanut gallery.
Uh, you’ve somewhat reiterated one of the unspoken axioms of my whole post above?
Also, take a gander at the link below for example damage. It’s not as hard to wreck your barrel as you think. Especially if you have OCD.
How and when to utilize abrasive bore cleaners
After reading @Frank Green talk about cleaning and carbon ring removal I decided it’s time I take care of my neglected barrels. Some of my barrels are getting up there in round count, and cleaning carbon is getting harder and harder. Jb bore paste is what Iv seen some recommend as a mild...www.snipershide.com
What are you asking exactly? If in reference to making the barrel out of tolerance? You bet your ass! If our tolerance is for example .3080" -.0000"/+.0005" and now the barrel measures .3100". Yep!
Opening up the bore/groove dimensions will also cause a looser bullet fit which will effect accuracy. Pure plain and simple. It will also have an effect on pressures and velocity.
Also are you creating tight and loose spots in the bore of the barrel?
Damage to the lands will most likely cause bullet failure.
Making the bore to smooth can create a copper fouling issue which in turn leads to an accuracy issue.
If your referring to me making a video next week? No. That's in reference to being on Eriks podcast most likely next week.
There is a time to use them and a time not to use them.
Also how one guy uses them vs another....one guy can wreck the barrel and the other not wreck the barrel. One type of an abrasive vs another type is another variable.
I know one ammo/bullet maker that in the ballistic lab...Only one guy is allowed to clean a barrel with an abrasive. The other workers in the lab are not allowed to do it.
He (Bryan) was also in my opinion using the term abrasive in a general sense. Which one exactly was/does he use? He didn't say and if he did I didn't catch it. JB Bore compound or JB Bore Brite (blue label vs red label?). If I use it I only use the Bore Compound. Not the Bore Brite!
Frank, Appreciate the information on the topic. Hey, I don't know the answer, curious on the above in reference to copper fouling?
Mark
At the end of the video orkan mentioned that he did not measure how much material was removed.
I was curious to see what taking a drill and brush to a barrel in a similar manner would result in measurement wise.
Not curious enough to buy a deltronics pin set and air gage however
At the end of the video orkan mentioned that he did not measure how much material was removed.
I was curious to see what taking a drill and brush to a barrel in a similar manner would result in measurement wise.
Not curious enough to buy a deltronics pin set and air gage however
I/we've seen barrels when a guy takes a brush on a drill or even more stupid a piece of emery cloth on the end of a wooden stick! Yes people do it and then blame the barrel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The rod bouncing around in there...usually what happens it will nick/beat up the edges of the lands. Even if you didn't change the bore size per se....damaging the lands can result in bullet failure etc... don't forget you have the joint
Think about this.... a 5.56 barrel the lands only stick up about .0025". On a 308 barrel the lands only stick up .004". The thickness of the human hair average is about .003". So the lands are not any taller than the thickness of a human hair! So put that into perspective when you see a guy running a rod on a drill inside of a barrel!!!!!!!
The other thing we see like the guy with the drill and emery cloth...he was trying to clean out the carbon ring in the throat of the barrel. The edges of the lands and the throat where all smeared/knarfed/rolled over...call it what you want. Claimed we had bad steel and it was pushing metal. Then he blamed the gunsmith for using a dull chamber reamer. He didn't wreck one...he didn't wreck two but the gunsmith went to talk to him at a match and caught him red handed doing it to a 3rd one! An this guy has made the U.S. team!
So when you see someone doing something that tells your gut it doesn't look right! Your gut is probably telling you something. I don't care if the guy has made the US team in the past or not. Doesn't make him god or that this or that person knows everything.
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I see damage to the edges of the lands...I almost right away know what is being done to the barrel and I'll guarantee it didn't leave here looking like that.At the end of the video orkan mentioned that he did not measure how much material was removed.
I was curious to see what taking a drill and brush to a barrel in a similar manner would result in measurement wise.
Not curious enough to buy a deltronics pin set and air gage however
Mark, I cannot put a measurement on it....but when you (you as just a reference could be anyone) are using an abrasive cleaner even just on a patch and you tell me...yea the barrel is still really dirty! The patches keep coming out really black in color! What most likely is happening is your basically polishing the bore over and over again. You can make the bore of the barrel too smooth! This will cause the bullet to want to stick is the only way I can describe it and it can lead to a copper fouling situation. Once this happens... typically you cannot save the barrel. I've got a 50/50 shot that I can save it.
Later, Frank
I think I understand a tad, maybe the increased surface area(smooth)increases the coefficient of friction? Heck, I don't know, just like everything else just when you think you have it figured out, something else pops in to wreck it! haha.
I see it as religion and politics, too far to the left or right and you have issues. Same as cleaning and lube. This is what I do, at the range I will run 1-2 patches with Eliminator via an Otis cable, insuring I pinch the muzzle end to keep it center. When I get home, 1-3 hours later, I use a bore guide and Bore Tech rod and within 3-5 patches, it's done. On occasion, I will do the nylon brush. At the range, I do let the 2nd patch dwell for a couple minutes at the throat. Not saying it's right, but makes sense based on what I've read, been told by folks who I will listen to. I do use the proof positive stuff at home as I know I get some blue from the Otis brass.
I see it as religion and politics, too far to the left or right and you have issues. Same as cleaning and lube. This is what I do, at the range I will run 1-2 patches with Eliminator via an Otis cable, insuring I pinch the muzzle end to keep it center. When I get home, 1-3 hours later, I use a bore guide and Bore Tech rod and within 3-5 patches, it's done. On occasion, I will do the nylon brush. At the range, I do let the 2nd patch dwell for a couple minutes at the throat. Not saying it's right, but makes sense based on what I've read, been told by folks who I will listen to. I do use the proof positive stuff at home as I know I get some blue from the Otis brass.
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Yeah I had sort of a break through for myself in cleaning today. I've always been weary of using any brush and especialy pulling it back through , but today I used the Birchwood Casey Foaming bore scrubber and a nylon brush and got my barrels cleaner than I've ever gotten them. I did a few passes and let it sit another couple minutes then I did probably 15 ish strokes forward and then backward, then some #9, on a a few patches, then oil then dry amd done. Still a little copper but they both got really clean and look great inside. Wish I'd used the nylon brush like that a long time ago.
1000% haha
Same people that freak out when someone hunts with a 12” stabilizer on their bow like its going to get in the way. I gently point out the nocked arrow extends almost 2 ft beyond the bow.
If a bronze brush pulled back through a steel bore can damage, its probably not safe to shoot.
The results are in! Took the Dewalt to the old 700 today. It's nice and shiny in there now but I think that barrel. Is just pooched. There's some pretty bad rust pitting in it. Even worse in places now than I had previously seen. Now that it's clean in there and you can get a good look.
Not sure as to hardness of ss barrels vs cr-mo but I ended up with a slight cross hatch pattern in the bore now. Rings ought to seat nicely. Used a tiptons best 30 cal. bore brush with boretech eliminator and cu²
Went out and shot it but didn't get a pic of the target today. Group stayed fairly centered where it was but instead of horizontal shift it had more vertical in it. And it didn't group all that great. Shot with the same box of ammo as the last target. I think it needs at least 10-20 shots to calm it down after cleaning it to smooth things back out in the bore. Some of the pits are pretty bad. Some on the lands, some down in the grooves. Pics to follow.
Starting from the chamber working towards the muzzle. You can see the light cross hatch scratches in places. Looks like there may still be some carbon stuck in it in places. Hard to tell what's pitting and what's stuck on.
Not sure as to hardness of ss barrels vs cr-mo but I ended up with a slight cross hatch pattern in the bore now. Rings ought to seat nicely. Used a tiptons best 30 cal. bore brush with boretech eliminator and cu²
Went out and shot it but didn't get a pic of the target today. Group stayed fairly centered where it was but instead of horizontal shift it had more vertical in it. And it didn't group all that great. Shot with the same box of ammo as the last target. I think it needs at least 10-20 shots to calm it down after cleaning it to smooth things back out in the bore. Some of the pits are pretty bad. Some on the lands, some down in the grooves. Pics to follow.
Starting from the chamber working towards the muzzle. You can see the light cross hatch scratches in places. Looks like there may still be some carbon stuck in it in places. Hard to tell what's pitting and what's stuck on.
Not something I'll be doing to any of my custom barrels that I care about. This one's days were numbered as it was. The twelve twist has got to go!
Well, thanks for letting us know that's a dumbass thing to do to a good barrel. You didn't really lose anything on that one I guess so glad it could be of use. Seriously, thanks for the test and showing the results.
I'm super happy with my bore scrubber Foaming gel and nylon brush results. I've never had any of my barrels so clean and they look great. Haven't shot em yet though, work and kids are really taking a toll on my shooting time these days bur the kids will grow up super fast so, I'd rather hang out with them while I can. My powder will stay dry and be ready for me when they are hanging out with their friends and dad isn't cool anymore.
For everyone scared to use a brush, i got the fix for you. Buy a Muzzle Jimmy from PVA and you wont have to ever use a brush. Put the muzzle jimmy on, pour your solvent of choice down the barrel (Boretech eliminator, wipeout, patchout, etc) let the bitch sit for a day or 2 and patch out until dry. Bam... your bore is mirror shine clean. No brush, no paste, no work, no worry.
If you dont take your barrels off to clean, buy The Plug and throw it in your chamber like a go gauge and pour down the muzzle. Let it sit and patch it out like normal.
If you dont take your barrels off to clean, buy The Plug and throw it in your chamber like a go gauge and pour down the muzzle. Let it sit and patch it out like normal.
I was very interested in the Muzzle Jimmy and asked @bohem if he would make them to fit Area 419 universal adapter as I have them on a number of rifles in order to move cans seamlessly.
He did say he was going to reach out to them but I haven't seen anything further on that and a 419 compatible Jimmy isn't listed on the site.
I would far prefer to plug the muzzle and have the rifle facing muzzle down while soaking than flip the rifle the other way and use The Plug so as to pour solvent in the muzzle end. I see he references doing leak testing but not much detail (and leak would make a hell of a mess to clean up.
Have you used The Plug and if so, with what results
Anybody?
@bohem - any feedback on your convo with 419 about making the Jimmy compatible with their uni adapter?
Thanks
I'll still use a brush, just not attached to a drill.
I've used small rubber plugs or ear plugs in the muzzle before and filled them with boretech. And you're right, soak them for a couple days and they clean right out.
Yeah that's a good one for folks who don't have a qd or something on their barrel but not really an option for those that do. I did call possum hollow and I got some plugs for my barrels that you can just plug the chamber and pour solvent in from the muzzle end and do the same thing. I've never let anything sit in my barrel for more than an hour though and that's probably why it had limited effects. The nylon brush and Foaming gel stuff worked extremely well though. I wouldn't put a drill on it or anything but just that took care of my 6cm barrel and I can promise you it was some tough carbon. I did let it soak for a bit though.
If you're ok with soaking for a few days just call possum hollow and get the plugs, it's way easier than Foamie plug in the end and trying to get it through a break or qdI'll still use a brush, just not attached to a drill.
I've used small rubber plugs or ear plugs in the muzzle before and filled them with boretech. And you're right, soak them for a couple days and they clean right out.
I also have the plug that i use for my tikka. It never leaked into the action when using it. My AI has always had the barrel removed for cleaning so the Muzzle Jimmy works best for that.
When using the plug, throw it in the chamber, close bolt, set it down with muzzle up, pour solvent in, let it sit, then turn the rifle over (nothing comes out), open the bolt with the muzzle in a cup or bowl, and the vacuum pressure releases the solvent out of the barrel. Patch it out, done.
They don't leak. I stated that we leak tested them with a myriad of nasty industrial solvents including MEK and Acetone as well as half a dozen of the most common gun cleaners on the market, including Ed's Red (homemade stuff that will likely give you liver cancer). The Plug and the Muzzle Jimmy both went 72hr+ on all of the various solvents before we launched the product.
As far as making one specifically for the 419 adapters: We haven't made progress on working with them on it. The Plug solves the problem already and allows you to clean the crown by filling the barrel up and using the universal adapter to hold solvent. It's another SKU that now involves reliance on another company to freeze their design process.
Thanks...just went to order The Plug and it says "Pre-order Now". Not out of stock or anything but seems to indicate that it hasn't been released yet.
Is this item still not released yet or just missed a website update...it must be released as a member above posted that he had it, right?
Please advise
I understand about not being able to control the 419 interface and why it may not be something you want to do. And I may still buy a Jimmy...the 419 uni adapter is easy to get off if I want to. On with just blue locktite.
Thanks and looking forward to your reply wrt to availability of The Plug
Pretty wild to listen what other people do when cleaning barrels. Things I learned, don't use a wood rod chucked up on a drill with sand paper on the end lol, be careful with abrasives, and certain chemicals, use a bore scope it will tell you when it's clean and not all cleaning regimens are going to be the same even with the same barrel.
I stick to proven and conservative methods on all my shooting. Just like I don't use moly coated bullets. There is a polarizing subject. There are guys out there that swear by them and guys who report ruined barrels do to moly ring in the chamber. Anytime there is contention like this I don't use the product. If David Tubb (sponsored), Larry Potterfield (billionaire) or anybody like that wants to try something with their $400 barrel that it great but I'm not in that boat so I will be sticking with Frank Greens advice.
Ran into this when having a discussion with someone else on the subject. Never considered the metal weeping deposits over time.
Any thoughts?
I just cleaned my 300winmag yesterday. I'll push a patch through it this evening and sew what comes out.
Cleaning 3 days in a row?
You'll become best friends with your barrel supplier and gunsmith
You cant teach reading comprehension…Cleaning 3 days in a row?
You'll become best friends with your barrel supplier and gunsmith
Or stop people on the internet from misunderstanding things they read.
Taking cleaning advice from the military is a great way to clean if you don't value your barrel.
Are you saying the barrel doesn't weep for a few days after the initial cleaning? And running a patch down the bore to check for that weeping is false?
I would think this would depend on your climate and humidity. In Mississippi condensation inside a barrel is very possible. In Arizona not so much
This is something I would ask @Frank Green, not the military.
The military is notorious for over cleaning. And while that article doesn't outright state it, it hints/suggests further cleaning if weeping is observed. Not just merely running a patch down the barrel.
I'm open to learning something, but I'm extremely skeptical of that much cleaning.
I am in Florida. Went shooting Tuesday, cleaned when I got home, Patch came out Clean and dry, put away. On Thursday ran 1 patch through after reading this, curiosity got the better of me. low and behold they was some debris that came out. Ran a single patch today it was clean.
I don't read that as OCD scrubbing the barrel for 3 days, just a single patch to catch the potential weep after the initial clean.
How do you know there wasn't more "weep" if you only ran one patch?
If it's still dirty after one patch, I would think you would keep putting patches down until it's clean, if that's what you're worried about.
Go back and read what I wrote, note what happened when I ran the patch today, Saturday . The information you challenge has already be presented, but for some reason you have decided to ignore that...
For the record, I'm more curious than anything now.
How often does this "weep" occur? What conditions need to be present for it? Will this "weep" damage the barrel if you don't patch it out for 3 days? Will preventative maintenance such as running a patch down the barrel with oil after cleaning prevent said "weep", or at least prevent it from becoming an issue?
How often does this "weep" occur? What conditions need to be present for it? Will this "weep" damage the barrel if you don't patch it out for 3 days? Will preventative maintenance such as running a patch down the barrel with oil after cleaning prevent said "weep", or at least prevent it from becoming an issue?
Im hoping @Frank Green can shed light on this.
Like I said, I'm more curious than anything at this point.
I am curious as well
Also, you mentioned listing to the military as a bad source of info. I think there is a disconnect from the drill sergeant who yells at teenagers and the engineers who designed and wrote the manual for the M40A1.
The military spends more time and money on testing things like this than any one. Why would they make that up and put it in a manual??
This is where is came from.
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Perhaps I should give them more credit. I just feel like they are always way behind on precision rifle stuff.
First thing I always say is "pay attention to the rifle. It will tell you what is going on, you just have to learn how to read it!"
Also, the barrel will change over the course of its life. When that throat starts to get rough (looks like the dry riverbed, alligator skin, cracking going on) and when you clean it the patch goes over the top of the surface. It doesn't necessarily get down into the cracks/fissures. So, the solvent will sit down in there and keep loosening up the fouling. So as the barrel wears you will see this more than when the barrel is newer/less rounds on it.
Same thing the patch will not necessarily get right into the corners of the lands/groove junction. This is one reason I feel from a carbon fouling standpoint the 5R rifling might seem to clean a little easier vs conventional 4 groove or 6 groove, 3 groove, 5 groove, 8 groove type rifling where the lands meet the groove basically at a 90-degree corner.
So, when you run a dry patch or a fresh wet down the patch down the bore sometime later on you might see some dirt streaks on it etc... it's what I refer to as the barrel is sweating.
Food for thought for you guys!
Later, Frank
Never seen that before! That’s pretty cool!
I also feel the barrel will clean easier when it is still warm. All the fouling is soft. Now this isn’t alway practical to do. I get it.
and I always say… put it away dirty for extended periods of time and it will pit. It will corrode!
@Frank Green
Can layout your cleaning procedures for short term and long term storage? Also how you attack a carbon ring?
I believe lowlight talked about it in a podcast his method if I recall correctly was a wet patch, nylon brush 3x, wet patch, dry patch, done. And for long term storage I think he added a patch of isopropyl alcohol, then light weight oil patch.
Can layout your cleaning procedures for short term and long term storage? Also how you attack a carbon ring?
I believe lowlight talked about it in a podcast his method if I recall correctly was a wet patch, nylon brush 3x, wet patch, dry patch, done. And for long term storage I think he added a patch of isopropyl alcohol, then light weight oil patch.
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