Rifle Scopes Premier or Schmidt and Bender

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wichitaguns

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Minuteman
Jun 7, 2012
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#1
I have finally decided to take the plunge for a higher end optic. My options are a premier 3-15 or 5-25 (will have to trade my lmt piston +cash for one. I hear this specific model is still covered by the TT warranty)
or a Schmidt and Bender (probably will be saving for a while to get one, dont mind the delayed gratification).
Objectively speaking is there a benefit of one over the other?
I wont ask the glass question since its probably a wash between these two.
Uses will be longish range shooting (so 500 to 1200 yards)
Thanks in advance.
 
#2
I'd suggest S&B vs Minox. Premier warranties and ability to get basic service/repair seem shaky nowadays. Besides, you can't buy a new Premier anymore.

I have three ZP5s and I love 'em. Have no experience w/S&B, but their reputation speaks for itself.
 
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#3
I agree with "Threadcutter308" ... Premier scopes are still top tier optics, but Warranty and Used Only options make it a back burner choice... The Minox ZP5 was made in collaboration with "Optronika" The company that designed Premier scopes. So in essence the Minox is Premier 2.0...

Id look at the
1) Minox ZP5
2) S&B PMII - There are some killer deals going on
3) Khales K624i
3) NF ATACR F1
4) Vortex AMG / RAZOR G2

Those will be your choices in the $2,200-$2,900 bracket... You've got plenty of options in Reticle / Size / Weight / Features ... Make a list of must haves and see which one checks the most boxes. All are phenomenal optics...
 
#4
HOLD_OVER said:
The Minox ZP5 was made in collaboration with "Optronika" The company that designed Premier scopes. So in essence the Minox is Premier 2.0...
Click to expand...

The Minox is a good scope, but it is not a Premier 2.0. The TT is the Premier 2.0. The Premier lacks a few years of advancement in coatings but the scope is still remains on the top rung in my book. Looking through them side by side against NF ATACR/S&B/Minox/Steiner/AMG/RZ II it still is shines in glass and features. Best turrets around aside the new TT, but they are just too expensive.
 
#6
nad1967 said:
The Minox is a good scope, but it is not a Premier 2.0. The TT is the Premier 2.0. The Premier lacks a few years of advancement in coatings but the scope is still remains on the top rung in my book. Looking through them side by side against NF ATACR/S&B/Minox/Steiner/AMG/RZ II it still is shines in glass and features. Best turrets around aside the new TT, but they are just too expensive.
Click to expand...

Are the turrets really that much better than the Razor 2 and ATACR F1? My new NF is due to arrive tomorrow and the gen 2 Razor turrets are damn good... Never spun the Premier turrets that's why I ask...
 
#7
I just returned a Schmidt PM II 5-25, in part because I really disliked the turrets, clicks are just to close together for my liking and my eyes and the eye box didn't get along very well.. Not saying anything negative about it, just wasn't my cup of tea.. The glass was great..
 
#9
While S&B might be the standard, I ended up with the Nightforce and a Kahles. Both scopes have their differences, but they both allow me to hit a target reliably. At that tier of optics, they will all do a great job. Find the reticle you like and run it. I wouldn't worry too much about the warranty on Premier, or else Orkan will come set everyone straight on it again.

Considering you said you would have to trade + cash to get an optic, I would suggest hitting up the PX and simply pick the best deal you can find.
 
#10
Having owned or spent plenty of time looking through every scope listed here, I currently own a Premier. The glass is as close to a Schmidt as you can get. I will say I like the turrets and tool less zero of the Premier. I am currently looking at trading my Premier for a Schmidt as I have never owned a Schmidt and would like to give one a go to see what I think after owning one for a while. I feel that I will likely come back to the Premier though. The parallax is super forgiving.
As for the Minox, plenty of people suggesting them yet almost every single person I know that has bought one has put it up for sale less than a month later, must not be all that impressive....
Nightforce and Kahles are quality stuff, the glass is very close to a Premier but I think the Premier slightly edges them out. Turrets, premier hands down. Setting zero - premier hands down. Reticles- I really like the gen 2 xr but that's a personal preference.

I agree with the above statement- find a reticle you like and run it. I prefer the gen 2 xr because its simple and not obstructive.
 
#12
Cartman said:
And we've never seen an S&B or Premier for sale in the PX...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I don't think that was exactly the point of the other post. It seems guys snag up a minox then sale it. That being said I've seen the same with the new uso b series although I think half of those say the illumination wasn't bright enough for day use which I don't get.

I've yet to see a minox at a match yet here in the south/central part of the country. I'm sure giving their background it is solid. I have refrained from buying one until I put hands on first. Every other scope listed is pretty easy to see in person at matches even Tangents.

Op I've been running a 3-15 premier for several months now and love it. Between several fellow shooters we agree it bests the S&B one has as well as the gen 2 razors and uso. Not sure I would have outright jumped on it had I not got a smoking deal although this one is a warranty covered unit. The turrets are hands down my favorite with the S&B second.

Sent from my LGUS992 using Tapatalk

 
#13
Nortex said:
I don't think that was exactly the point of the other post. It seems guys snag up a minox then sale it. That being said I've seen the same with the new uso b series although I think half of those say the illumination wasn't bright enough for day use which I don't get.

I've yet to see a minox at a match yet here in the south/central part of the country. I'm sure giving their background it is solid. I have refrained from buying one until I put hands on first. Every other scope listed is pretty easy to see in person at matches even Tangents.

Op I've been running a 3-15 premier for several months now and love it. Between several fellow shooters we agree it bests the S&B one has as well as the gen 2 razors and uso. Not sure I would have outright jumped on it had I not got a smoking deal although this one is a warranty covered unit. The turrets are hands down my favorite with the S&B second.

Sent from my LGUS992 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Minox won the South texas match @ RO this past weekend...mounted on thursday, 1st on Sunday
 
#14
morganlamprecht said:
Minox won the South texas match @ RO this past weekend...mounted on thursday, 1st on Sunday
Click to expand...


Competitors running Minox do pretty well...

Gustavo earned 2nd place at National Rifle League match at Dog Valley Precision

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#15
Nortex said:
I don't think that was exactly the point of the other post. It seems guys snag up a minox then sale it. That being said I've seen the same with the new uso b series although I think half of those say the illumination wasn't bright enough for day use which I don't get.

I've yet to see a minox at a match yet here in the south/central part of the country. I'm sure giving their background it is solid. I have refrained from buying one until I put hands on first. Every other scope listed is pretty easy to see in person at matches even Tangents.

Op I've been running a 3-15 premier for several months now and love it. Between several fellow shooters we agree it bests the S&B one has as well as the gen 2 razors and uso. Not sure I would have outright jumped on it had I not got a smoking deal although this one is a warranty covered unit. The turrets are hands down my favorite with the S&B second.

Sent from my LGUS992 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Then let me rephrase my response. Even recently, I've seen guys snag up a new S&B and then put it up for sale in the PX here. And, if I'm remembering correctly, when Premier was still in business the same thing would happen here.

The sample size for Minox is small. And they're relatively new. I think you guys are reading way too much into a handful of people getting in and out of that optic in a relatively short period of time.

There are plenty of guns and gear for sale here that are new or close to it? All junk? People get in and out of stuff for a variety of reasons.

Which is not to say Premier and S&B are not the bee's knees, or that all Minox may not end up falling apart after three years. But, rather, if you guys don't think the same buying and selling activities have gone on with these other brands I think you need to look a little harder.

Time will tell what's what with the ZP5. For now, it looks like people are starting to win with them.
 
#17
Thanks for the input. I figure I will save my pennies and look around the PX and read as much as I can about S&B/Nightforce/Premier before making my purchase. What did Orkan have to say about the Premier warranty? I can read the post if someone has a link to it.
Thanks again for the input
 
#18
Shanerbanner10 said:
As for the Minox, plenty of people suggesting them yet almost every single person I know that has bought one has put it up for sale less than a month later, must not be all that impressive.
Click to expand...

The same team that designed your Premier designed the Minox. I'd almost be willing to bet it's the same optical design with updated coatings.

I own or have owned multiple copies of the Premier 5-25 and S&B 5-25, optically I prefer the Minox.

I do think the Premier turrets are the best though.
 
#21
SRPowah said:
It was a shit show back on Scout before it was put down. Needless to say, the scope is covered as long as you don't treat it like a Marine.
Click to expand...

Only if your Premier was purchased from a vendor in the ATI network. If not then you are SOL and even if purchased inside their dealer network when they run out of parts they are out of parts and you are still SOL as the parts supply is limited.

At best you will have a $1K credit towards a TT from what I remember reading if your scope goes TU and can't be repaired. Better than a swift kick but I wouldn't personally buy a Premier unless it was under $1200.
 
#22
jlficken said:
Only if your Premier was purchased from a vendor in the ATI network. If not then you are SOL and even if purchased inside their dealer network when they run out of parts they are out of parts and you are still SOL as the parts supply is limited.

At best you will have a $1K credit towards a TT from what I remember reading if your scope goes TU and can't be repaired. Better than a swift kick but I wouldn't personally buy a Premier unless it was under $1200.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. I know one guy that got a TT straight up for a Premier. I also know a couple guys that traded their Premiers in for Tt's and got a very generous credit, definitely a lot more than 1k$.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#23
#24
S&B PM II, I just got a new DT CCW P4L for a little less ($2400) than the least expensive Minox ZP5 I have (MR2 reticle).
The glass in the ZP5 is better but the S&B glass is pretty damn good.
The reticle in the ZP5 is better but the P4L is serviceable.
The Minox doesn't tunnel but the FOV of the S&B at 7.4x (approx where it starts to tunnel) is more than adequate for my needs.
The Minox has a lifetime warranty, the S&B now has a written 20 year warranty, not awful.
I wouldn't be too upset if the S&B was the only scope I had.
The Minox is a bit better in most regards but as others have pointed out does not have quite the service record, although the Premier from which it descended does.

You won't go wrong with either.

I'd steer clear of the Premiers at this point, you might get stuck with a paperweight if it were to break in the future, and that's a lot of money to be out IMHO.
 
#25
scudzuki said:
S&B PM II, I just got a new DT CCW P4L for a little less ($2400) than the least expensive Minox ZP5 I have (MR2 reticle).
The glass in the ZP5 is better but the S&B glass is pretty damn good.
The reticle in the ZP5 is better but the P4L is serviceable.
The Minox doesn't tunnel but the FOV of the S&B at 7.4x (approx where it starts to tunnel) is more than adequate for my needs.
The Minox has a lifetime warranty, the S&B now has a written 20 year warranty, not awful.
I wouldn't be too upset if the S&B was the only scope I had.
The Minox is a bit better in most regards but as others have pointed out does not have quite the service record, although the Premier from which it descended does.

You won't go wrong with either.

I'd steer clear of the Premiers at this point, you might get stuck with a paperweight if it were to break in the future, and that's a lot of money to be out IMHO.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this.
 
#26
Shanerbanner10 said:
I know one guy that got a TT straight up for a Premier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

who was the retard who let the TT go? lol i was shooting a premier side by side with my Minox a couple days ago...testing the function of the premier, because the owner was having issues with it...i remounted it, and only used 15 in-lbs on the rings or whatever since premiers have that weak ass tube thing going on

1) MTC turrets are the worst thing ever made, trash
2) premier tracked spot on
3) after every shot, the scope image would get fuzzy and id have to twist on the parallax knob back and forth to get it crisp again
4) minox tracked spot on, boring, no weird image issues

i told the owner of the premier to shoot it and see what it looked like, he could make a decision on it from there

 
#27
Threadcutter308 said:
I'd suggest S&B vs Minox. Premier warranties and ability to get basic service/repair seem shaky nowadays. Besides, you can't buy a new Premier anymore.

I have three ZP5s and I love 'em. Have no experience w/S&B, but their reputation speaks for itself.
Click to expand...

Besides, you can not buy a new Premier anymore. - TT=Premier- why, what reason?
 
#28
morganlamprecht said:
who was the retard who let the TT go? lol i was shooting a premier side by side with my Minox a couple days ago...testing the function of the premier, because the owner was having issues with it...i remounted it, and only used 15 in-lbs on the rings or whatever since premiers have that weak ass tube thing going on

1) MTC turrets are the worst thing ever made, trash
2) premier tracked spot on
3) after every shot, the scope image would get fuzzy and id have to twist on the parallax knob back and forth to get it crisp again
4) minox tracked spot on, boring, no weird image issues

i told the owner of the premier to shoot it and see what it looked like, he could make a decision on it from there
Click to expand...

Mtc seems to be like reticles. Either you love it or hate it.

I've seen several scopes get thrown off by overtightening the rings. Both generation of razor and a nightforce. After propper torque was applied they worked fine. I'm betting the premier you mentioned might have gotten fubar from the rings as most reviews/isdues talk of parallax issues when tightened too tight.
 
#29
I have 2 S&Bs, a 5-25x56 DT & a 3-20x50 MTC LT.
I have 2 Premiers, a 5-25x56 & a 3-15x50 Light Tactical.

All are on hunting rifles and fill a specific requirement. The 5-25 S&B is on a long range deer rifle. The 5-25 PH is on my long range elk rifle. The 3-20 S&B is on a carry weight elk rifle. The 3-15 PH LT is on a lightweight deer rifle.

I love every one of them. All are absolutely top tier optics. I would not trade any of them, and it has taken me a long time to finally get them all in my arsenal.

I also have a Kahles K624i Gen III on a target/heavy hunting rifle. Can't go wrong there either. Color is not quite there with the S&B and Premiers, but it is no slouch, and has my favorite reticle ever in the SKMR.
 
#30
morganlamprecht said:
who was the retard who let the TT go? lol i was shooting a premier side by side with my Minox a couple days ago...testing the function of the premier, because the owner was having issues with it...i remounted it, and only used 15 in-lbs on the rings or whatever since premiers have that weak ass tube thing going on

1) MTC turrets are the worst thing ever made, trash
2) premier tracked spot on
3) after every shot, the scope image would get fuzzy and id have to twist on the parallax knob back and forth to get it crisp again
4) minox tracked spot on, boring, no weird image issues

i told the owner of the premier to shoot it and see what it looked like, he could make a decision on it from there
Click to expand...

I definitely think the turret thing is a personal preference. I half way enjoy the MTC. They can be a pain in the ass though if you're not used to them. I haven't had any issues with "fuzziness."
I'd like to see a Minox in person and see what the rave is about. The person in question had a Premier and sent it in for repair, they sent him back a TT straight up.
 
#31
If you could say what options you would like or need, people here could guide you towards a more correct answer. Both brands you are asking about offer a plethora of options for various situations, besides 500-1200 yards, could you expand on that, do you know what you need? To be blunt, when you look through a tube can you tell what company's name is on it and why it would matter to you?
 
#32
Sorry for the delayed response. Here are the details
I now have the ability and the desire to shoot out to about 1200 yards.
I would like to enter a few local competitions and maybe take some sort of 24hr adventure course which has longish range shots. So Snipers Hide Cup/some 24 hour challenge with land nav/packing.
I am surrently working on the required skill set.
So physical fitness/reloading and reading the wind. I thought about getting a Vortex Gen11 pst, and then I thought to myself..., why not just upgrade to something that I will not need to further upgrade from. So buy once and just be done for 5 years or so.
So Nightforce/SB/Khales...and then a friend told me he has two premiers which he would be willing to let one go for my LMT+cash.
So here we are,, in no rush, I can wait and pinch my pennies. But I dont want to buy something which if my kid drops off a truck will turn into a paper weight.
The scope will go on a Accuracy Internation MK II in 308/6.5 creedmoor (barrel swap).
I saved for two years to get the AI and have no regrets with hoe long it took. Love the rifle. I might sell it for an AT but i am pretty happy with it for right now. It shoots way better than I can and I cost is less than the components for a R700 build.
 
#33
I get the snobbery of amazing optical properties regarding clarity, etc. but what about Leupold MK6/8, etc? Sure they may not be quite as "nice", but if you're looking for a company that will be around and "not run out of parts"...
 
#34
Leupold is out of sync with the precision world... I own the MK6 3-18 & MK8 1.1-8, Both are quality optics but the MK6 lacks reticle choices, and 1K premium for illumination makes it obsolete... The MK8 is better, but the turret design still seems overly complicated to me...

The MK4 line disappeared this year, and instead of following the precision world with a (PST GENII or XTRII) type optic, they release the VX-3 LRP... what were they thinking
 
#36
Thanks for the input. I am leaning towards keeping the LMT and just pinching the pennies and misappropriating funds from the kids college fun for a great rifle scope. If i find it intolerable to be patient I might get an G2DMR and upgrade later.
Although I have seen some awesome deals on Nightforce ATACR 4-16 in the PX.
 
#37
I didn't think I liked the MTC on my Premier until I was presented with a situation where they had a use. I was at a precision rifle class and we were shooting at night at illuminated targets (using various techniques of illumination). Anyway, had to come up 5.4 mils or whatever and we could not use illumination at the shooting position (i.e. it was dark) Solution: simply count 5 heavy clicks... and then 4 small ones. Lot easier than counting 54 clicks. Other guys w/o MTCs had trouble with this.

One thing on the MTC heavy clicks. Without use, they require a lot more torque, which can cause user to 'jump' two clicks instead of one. I have found with some use those heavy clicks wear in a bit reducing this over click issue.
 
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